Rashford and Martial combination

roonster09

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IMO there is no doubt that Rashford and Martial depend on each other, maybe obvious as good players make the team even better. When Martial was injured, we struggled to score goals, then once he was back we scored good number of goals with both Rashford and Martial chipping with goals or assists in almost every game. Now with Rashford injured, we are back to where we started, struggling for goals.

Here is the breakdown.
Rashford​
Martial​
Team goals
Goals​
Assists​
Goals​
Assists​
Vs Chelsea​
2​
0​
1​
0​
4​
Vs Wolves​
0​
1​
1​
0​
1​
Vs Palace​
0​
0​
0​
1​
1​
Vs Norwich​
1​
1​
1​
0​
3​
Vs Bournemouth​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
Vs Brighton​
1​
0​
0​
2​
3​
Vs Sheffield​
1​
1​
0​
0​
3​
Vs Aston Villa​
0​
0​
0​
0​
2​
Vs ManCity​
1​
0​
1​
0​
2​
Vs Everton​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1​
Vs Watford​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
Vs Newcastle​
1​
0​
2​
0​
4​
Vs Burnley​
1​
0​
1​
0​
2​
Vs Arsenal​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
Vs Norwich​
2​
0​
1​
0​
4​
Total​
10​
3​
8​
3​
30​

With both of them starting, we have played 15 league games, scored 30 goals. Rashford scored or assisted 13 goals, Martial 11 goals.

Now with at least one of them missing, we really struggled to score goals, scoring just 6 goals in 7 games with Martial injured and 0 goals in 3 games with Rashford injured.

Rashford without Martial
Goals​
Assists​
Team goals​
Vs Southampton​
0​
0​
1​
Vs Leicester​
1​
0​
1​
Vs West Ham​
0​
0​
0​
Vs Arsenal​
0​
1​
1​
Vs Newcastle​
0​
0​
0​
Vs Liverpool​
1​
0​
1​
Vs Spurs​
2​
0​
2​
Total​
4​
1​
6​

Martial without Rashford
Goals​
Assists​
Team goals​
Vs Liverpool​
0​
0​
0​
Vs Burnley​
0​
0​
0​
Vs Wolves​
0​
0​
0​

I knew this was always the case but didn't realize it was this bad.
 

Sylar

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Thats a good breakdown. I think they defo have a good understanding with each other and it shows cos they both celebrate wildly with the other one when the other scores.
With both of them in the team, its hard to double team both and negate the pace issue.

With one out, teams find it easier to double up. The issue is that when that happens, we dont really have somebody else to take advantage. I dont see Mason as quick (albeit I dont think hes had that many games when ones been out?). James isnt prolific to take the chance.
And then we have nobody else.

I think Rashford scares opponents more than Martial however. Both can improve on aspects when the other is out, but we also need others in the team to step up when one is absent.
 

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Good thread, needed to be made.

This discussion has been going on for so long now but I think it's pretty obvious that they both look excellent together but pretty shite apart. I think this has more to do with the fact that they are our only 2 players who, up to this point, have any quality in attack. Pogba coming back and staying fit (please) will have a similar affect, especially with the signing of Bruno as well.
 

Sandikan

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Good post.

It's definitely pretty clear they're better with the other one, so although Martial is getting a bit of jip at the moment, it wasn't that long ago Rashford was too, and Martial being described as the "key".

Now add Pogba in, who makes both better too, and it's a totally different lineup.

Imagine Bruno hits the ground running, and those 3 above all fit and in form, and suddenly things aren't as bleak as they look at times.
 

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I obviously agree with the OP and have been saying it ad nauseam but we need a third member and backups that actuall suit those roles. We can't rely on the form or presense of only two players and truth be told at this point they aren't good enough to have that type of importance. I'm still baffled by the fact that we haven't genuinely tried to bring that right side attacker, it makes no sense.
 

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I obviously agree with the OP and have been saying it ad nauseam but we need a third member and backups that actuall suit those roles. We can't rely on the form or presense of only two players and truth be told at this point they aren't good enough to have that type of importance. I'm still baffled by the fact that we haven't genuinely tried to bring that right side attacker, it makes no sense.
Think Woody has had a hard on for Sacho all this time and has put all the eggs in that basket.
 

roonster09

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I obviously agree with the OP and have been saying it ad nauseam but we need a third member and backups that actuall suit those roles. We can't rely on the form or presense of only two players and truth be told at this point they aren't good enough to have that type of importance. I'm still baffled by the fact that we haven't genuinely tried to bring that right side attacker, it makes no sense.
I remember the discussion from last summer that we have to sign RWF rather than CF to replace Lukaku. Would have added so much balance to the team.

Right now the most worrying part is how team looks clueless with one of them out. Maybe Pogba being out isn't helping either. Shows how poor our squad is. We need players who are relentless in wanting to score more goals, something Rashford improved this season. Need others to step up too.
 

JPRouve

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Think Woody has had a hard on for Sacho all this time and has put all the eggs in that basket.
I don't think that Woody has anything to do with that, there is no proof or even hint that this a thing despite the fact that people keep making that claim. I think that Ole and Mourinho rated Lingard and didn't see the need for an immediate upgrade, Lingard terrible form forced Ole's hands this season.
 

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Think Woody has had a hard on for Sacho all this time and has put all the eggs in that basket.
Sancho is the dream to be fair, if we got him in as RW, our strongest 11 would be excellent.
 

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Good Post. I hope this gives some fans some sort of perspective.

When you play and you have one man who is the danger, he will be stifled out. As a opponents manager, you would say to your team make sure Marital is not getting service and is crowded out.

Why? because they have James, Perreira, Lingard, Mata.

When you have Rashford playing as well, they interchange positions and it gives the opponents two people to mark.
 

He'sRaldo

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I obviously agree with the OP and have been saying it ad nauseam but we need a third member and backups that actuall suit those roles. We can't rely on the form or presense of only two players and truth be told at this point they aren't good enough to have that type of importance. I'm still baffled by the fact that we haven't genuinely tried to bring that right side attacker, it makes no sense.
Leroy Sane maybe? Contract expires next year.

It's a pipe dream, but if it happened that's the attack completed for the foreseeable future.
 

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4-3-3 with the front three interchanging positions is how we should be playing. We need to drop big money on a RW and sign another striker(to compete but not replace martial) that adds a different dimension. It’s proven that the martial/Rashford combo works so why scrap it? We just need better quality back ups and a more attacking threat from our right side. I also would not be opposed to a 3-4-3 and signing some decent wingbacks to add width but our attackers don’t do well with finishing off crosses.
 

He'sRaldo

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I remember the discussion from last summer that we have to sign RWF rather than CF to replace Lukaku. Would have added so much balance to the team.

Right now the most worrying part is how team looks clueless with one of them out. Maybe Pogba being out isn't helping either. Shows how poor our squad is. We need players who are relentless in wanting to score more goals, something Rashford improved this season. Need others to step up too.
Good OP, and this is also a good point. I don't think anyone else in the team is hungry for goals besides the strikers and maybe Maguire. It would be nice if the midfielders could sometimes chip in with a few game-changing goals. The quality of their shooting has been very poor recently.

And yeah, I think RF should be priority still over another striker.
 

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The stats posted in the OP are not a surprise. Man Utd don't have a system and style to creates chances that isn't transition and counted attacking based and because of that they are purely depending on each other to create their own chances(which is wrong in the first place). We have been exposed badly by their injuries but a better manager would deal with their absences better than we have done.

Rashford said in a interview the two players that he enjoys to play with the most are Martial and Pogba. It's not by coincidence. They are the 3 best players on the team and look out for each other because they know there is no real other route to the goal outside of their interplay.
 

JPRouve

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Leroy Sane maybe? Contract expires next year.

It's a pipe dream, but if it happened that's the attack completed for the foreseeable future.
I would love it but as you said it's a pipe dream, City aren't selling him to us, he most likely won't wait for us and Bayern will most likely have their man this summer. I don't really know who would be the best option some people have mentioned Chukwueze but I don't know him, for some reason I subconsciously refuse to watch Villarreal. I like the idea of Ziyech as a 10/10 type of player, he has very good technique and can be a decent goalthreat on top of being a creative player, solely based on his games for Turkey Cengiz Under could be an interesting and maybe cheapish option, he has good technique and is shifty, I don't really know what has done with Roma though, he was injured early this season.
 

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Leroy Sane maybe? Contract expires next year.

It's a pipe dream, but if it happened that's the attack completed for the foreseeable future.
Would be perfect but would have to be a free transfer. City would never sell and United would be too scared to approach this sort of deal.
 

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I would love it but as you said it's a pipe dream, City aren't selling him to us, he most likely won't wait for us and Bayern will most likely have their man this summer. I don't really know who would be the best option some people have mentioned Chukwueze but I don't know him, for some reason I subconsciously refuse to watch Villarreal. I like the idea of Ziyech as a 10/10 type of player, he has very good technique and can be a decent goalthreat on top of being a creative player, solely based on his games for Turkey Cengiz Under could be an interesting and maybe cheapish option, he has good technique and is shifty, I don't really know what has done with Roma though, he was injured early this season.
Adama for me. Hugs the touch line is an attacking threat whilst his stamina will be well compensated by AWB.
 

JPRouve

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Adama for me. Hugs the touch line is an attacking threat whilst his stamina will be well compensated by AWB.
I'm not convinced and I don't want a player that hugs the line, I want an inside forward that is particularly comfortable between the fullback and the centerback. On the outside I want fullbacks, they don't have to be Jordi Alba or Marcelo but just occupy space.
 

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Would be perfect but would have to be a free transfer. City would never sell and United would be too scared to approach this sort of deal.
And this is the most annoying part! We should IMO at least try something, we can't let Bayern just have a free run at such a good talent just because we're scared of City. At the very least we should try and turn his head so that he tells City it's Man Utd or a free transfer.
 

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I would love it but as you said it's a pipe dream, City aren't selling him to us, he most likely won't wait for us and Bayern will most likely have their man this summer. I don't really know who would be the best option some people have mentioned Chukwueze but I don't know him, for some reason I subconsciously refuse to watch Villarreal. I like the idea of Ziyech as a 10/10 type of player, he has very good technique and can be a decent goalthreat on top of being a creative player, solely based on his games for Turkey Cengiz Under could be an interesting and maybe cheapish option, he has good technique and is shifty, I don't really know what has done with Roma though, he was injured early this season.
Of all those, I've only seen Ziyech extensively. Chukuweze doesn't seem like a RF to me, more like a RW. I would love a forward who can dominate the fullback physically like Ronaldo, the fact that Sane is 6'0 and an excellent athlete contributes to him being very ideal as the RW version of Rashford. I don't think the ones you mentioned are of that mould, but to be fair very few wingers are exceptional athletes in every department.

But honestly, we've not fallen that low yet that we can't compete with Bayern for a transfer target with one year remaining. I think we should go all-in for Sane, try and turn his head. But if we can't do that, then yeah Ziyech seems the safest bet for the immediate future.
 
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Think Woody has had a hard on for Sacho all this time and has put all the eggs in that basket.
I don't think that Woody has anything to do with that, there is no proof or even hint that this a thing despite the fact that people keep making that claim. I think that Ole and Mourinho rated Lingard and didn't see the need for an immediate upgrade, Lingard terrible form forced Ole's hands this season.
Yeah I'm not having it's a thing at all. People are desperate to paint Woodward as some kind of intrusive DoF when in fact, 99.9% of our signings really do appear to be players our managers have massive hard-ons for.

I think Ole genuinely thought James would do well there, and he started the season looking he might, however as the season has worn on, James has looked less and less up to the task.
 

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Of all those, I've only seen Ziyech extensively. Chukuweze doesn't seem like a RF to me, more like a RW. I would love a forward who can dominate the fullback physically like Ronaldo, the fact that Sane is 6'0 and an excellent athlete contributes to him being very ideal as the RW version of Rashford.

But honestly, we've not fallen that low yet that we can't compete with Bayern for a transfer target with one year remaining. I think we should go all-in for Sane, try and turn his head. But if we can't do that, then yeah Ziyech seems the safest bet for the immediate future.
That's not the point, City would have to sell him to us and there is no reason for Sané to wait a year for United to maybe make an offer that suits him.
 

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That's not the point, City would have to sell him to us and there is no reason for Sané to wait a year for United to maybe make an offer that suits him.
Yeah, the thing is we don't know how City's owners will react to that sort of situation, because I don't think it's happened to them before! No one ever wants out at City, so who knows, they might just sell him for a substantial fee.

But you're right, it's most likely they'll tell him Bayern or rot in the reserves for a year. It won't affect them in any way, they have too much cash.
 

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I’d play them as a front 2, but every manager we get seems to play defensively with a lone striker
 

He'sRaldo

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With both of them starting, we have played 15 league games, scored 30 goals. Rashford scored or assisted 13 goals, Martial 11 goals.

Now with at least one of them missing, we really struggled to score goals, scoring just 6 goals in 7 games with Martial injured and 0 goals in 3 games with Rashford injured.
Out of curiosity, do you know how many of Rashford's goals without Martial were in open play? I know he scored a Ronaldo-esque freekick against Chelsea, but I can't really remember the rest.
 

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I’d play them as a front 2, but every manager we get seems to play defensively with a lone striker
Playing with a lone striker doesn't mean that you play defensively, if anything most managers that use a front two do it because the 442 is the most defensively balanced formation, you can easily set up a two backs of four and go full cattenaccio. From day one the most obvious formation has been a genuine 433 with three forwards not a 4141, 4231,or 442 that's what should have happened during summer 2016, it would also have been a better fit for Memphis, players like Salah or Sané were on the market.
 

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I’d play them as a front 2, but every manager we get seems to play defensively with a lone striker
that might suit them but would then leave the issue about where we get our width from?
i suppose they could operate like mane and salah but i dont think we have a firminho type player to drop back (bruno seems to prefer to operate deeper and arrive in that space rather than occupy a role up front and drop back)
and if they are a more traditional strike partnership then wither we play 2 wingers and I think 442 in the modern game (and without very good wingers) would cause us some big problems (heightened by having bruno / pogba in that 2 man midfield)
Or we go to wing backs to get the width? - AWB is not exactly the most attacking of full backs
Although that might be the best way to play the two of them together i dont think we have the team to play that way
 

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In my opinion, United should do the following.

Get Poch and Sancho in the summer at all costs.

Could you imagine:
............McTominay
......Fernandes ...Pogba
Sancho .. Martial .. Rashford
 

roonster09

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Out of curiosity, do you know how many of Rashford's goals without Martial were in open play? I know he scored a Ronaldo-esque freekick against Chelsea, but I can't really remember the rest.
Ronaldoesque free kick was in league cup, the stats I posted was only from Premier league.

Rashford scored 2 goals from penalty spot when Martial was injured, he won both of them. One vs Leicester and other was vs Spurs.
 

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Come on, the answer is OBVIOUS. Who are their replacement? Sanchez, gone. Lukaku, gone. Only backup players are Greenword, Mata, Lingard, and now we finally have Dalot. Regardless of whether we play 4231 or 433. This is a squad of 17 outfield players plus a few Academy players.
 

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Players that go hand in hand and are perfectly synergetic is nothing new in the game and history is bursting with them, but there is a massive difference between Martial and Rashford in that Rashford has shown he can do it without Martial in more than just the United team.

When Martial first came here, he was doing 'it' all by himself, effectively, and this co-dependency shouldn't be the definition of him nor Rashford.

Let's take Rooney and Ronaldo as an example of how this should work; both were imperious in their own right, but also enhanced as a combination - conveniently, they are a reflection in that one was central and the other a wing-forward. If one or the other was out of form, or even out of the team, the other could still function tidily because they understood not only their role, but also how to manipulate and contort their surroundings to their favour. That means exploiting holes; probing for opportunities; ceasing opportunities and generally being a self-generated menace. Rashford is further along that line than Martial, at least to this point in time, and I don't think it's all about goals or assists to assess that, but the driving force they are, the threat they are and how energising for others that they are.

The caveat is obviously featuring in far, far superior United sides than what we have that enabled them and their games, but as pointed to, Rashford is showing his game on any stage presented now where Martial is the heavier co-dependent.
 

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Ronaldoesque free kick was in league cup, the stats I posted was only from Premier league.

Rashford scored 2 goals from penalty spot when Martial was injured, he won both of them. One vs Leicester and other was vs Spurs.
Cheers. I'm not surprised he's the one who won the penalties, basically any attacking threat we've had this season has been from the strikers' individual brilliance. It's a wonder we've been so high up the table while basically depending on those two solely for the goals.
 

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Players that go hand in hand and are perfectly synergetic is nothing new in the game and history is bursting with them, but there is a massive difference between Martial and Rashford in that Rashford has shown he can do it without Martial in more than just the United team.

When Martial first came here, he was doing 'it' all by himself, effectively, and this co-dependency shouldn't be the definition of him nor Rashford.

Let's take Rooney and Ronaldo as an example of how this should work; both were imperious in their own right, but also enhanced as a combination - conveniently, they are a reflection in that one was central and the other a wing-forward. If one or the other was out of form, or even out of the team, the other could still function tidily because they understood not only their role, but also how to manipulate and contort their surroundings to their favour. That means exploiting holes; probing for opportunities; ceasing opportunities and generally being a self-generated menace. Rashford is further along that line than Martial, at least to this point in time, and I don't think it's all about goals or assists to assess that, but the driving force they are, the threat they are and how energising for others that they are.

The caveat is obviously featuring in far, far superior United sides than what we have that enabled them and their games, but as pointed to, Rashford is showing his game on any stage presented now where Martial is the heavier co-dependent.
Interesting analysis and the one where there isn't much to disagree with.

Coming to Ronaldo and Rooney, obviously both were superior players (one was generational player and other was among the best ever player) as individuals and as a pair. Apart from that, playing in a team with multiple goal threat and class helped them, in this team we can't say that about Rashford and Martial. We had Scholes and Carrick who could change the point of attack with just one pass and controlled the game, Evra who was like winger playing as FB, Giggs who was good enough to terrorize any defense and players like Saha who was hard to handle for any CB.

In this team, without Rashford and Martial, there is 0 goal threat. Not a single player who can switch the attack, FBs who don't carry attacking threat, completely nullified RW.
 

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Playing with a lone striker doesn't mean that you play defensively, if anything most managers that use a front two do it because the 442 is the most defensively balanced formation, you can easily set up a two backs of four and go full cattenaccio. From day one the most obvious formation has been a genuine 433 with three forwards not a 4141, 4231,or 442 that's what should have happened during summer 2016, it would also have been a better fit for Memphis, players like Salah or Sané were on the market.
I agree, but it was two separate points. We play defensively & with a lone striker. So the lone striker is always secluded.

Liverpool as the example, I’d say play more with 3 forwards. Their lone striker is never secluded.
 

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Interesting analysis and the one where there isn't much to disagree with.

Coming to Ronaldo and Rooney, obviously both were superior players (one was generational player and other was among the best ever player) as individuals and as a pair. Apart from that, playing in a team with multiple goal threat and class helped them, in this team we can't say that about Rashford and Martial. We had Scholes and Carrick who could change the point of attack with just one pass and controlled the game, Evra who was like winger playing as FB, Giggs who was good enough to terrorize any defense and players like Saha who was hard to handle for any CB.

In this team, without Rashford and Martial, there is 0 goal threat. Not a single player who can switch the attack, FBs who don't carry attacking threat, completely nullified RW.
It's more about basic tenets of their own games, not about what's around them, per se. Of course, what you're saying is a factor (a massive one, no doubt), but knowing themselves and what they should be about is vital for growth. Knowing how to read a game, read a play, influence it, manipulate it or be opportune, these are components that they have to learn independent of one another.

Sneaking across a line and nipping across a player to intercept, or break in an unsuspecting fashion, knowing how to use foils etc. etc. things that make you look at a player in isolation and then concede those around them are what fails them. All that can be asked of anyone is they do the right things, repeatedly and then let the chips fall where they may - at that point, scrutiny goes elsewhere, away from the player and onto the things failing them, or at the least, preventing them from being optimal.

Let me use a way out there analogy of Scholes or Xavi. The only pre-requisite needed to optimise either of them is that, when they pass you the ball, you can pass it back to them so they can then progress it further. If you surround them with players who cannot do this simple job, you are not optimising them, and are, in fact, failing them - everything about their own game is intact - to the point it is almost beyond reproach, but to take them on to that level, their passes must have someone on the end of them that can maintain the chain and allow them to do their thing. If Martial is doing all the things a #9 is supposed to be doing, but is then not being found by others, it's on those failing them, equally so for Rashford at wing-forward, but if they aren't fulfilling the full remit of their position, then you have to explore that and have it addressed. I feel Martial is more at a crossroads with this than Rashford as Rashford does more of what a wing-forward is supposed to do than Martial does as a central player.
 

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It has a huge impact, and highlights the need for depth. Martial is getting loads of shit but hes been having a good season with Rashford there. Rashford had a great season but struggled without Martial (especially us as a team). Greenwood has potential to compliment them perfectly on the right as well. So having them 3 is fine as a long term view, but we need real depth.

In addition to that, finally having Bruno Fernandes in, we should have more creativity in midfield. Pogba's creativity and passing we'll need to replace in some way, as Bruno should only be an addition to Pogba and not just a Pogba replacement.

Rashford Martial Greenwood
Pogba Bruno
McTominay
Shaw Maguire Lindelof Wan Bissaka
De Gea​

With the right manager and the right depth, there's no reason that squad couldn't challenge for trophies. With Ole it should be able to get top 4 regularly and go for cups. Pogba would need to be replaced (or just starting Fred and having McTominay as box to box). Its about having good depth and players to challenge for starting spots if others arent performing.
 

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Great post this is definitely true, but I also think us consequently having to play the likes of Mata on the right wing has a part to play as well. Our front 3 loses it's balance as a result, and we become more predictable/easier to defend against.
 

gerdm07

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Aug 8, 2011
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The stats don't lie in this case. However, I don't see them as a great duo that work well together. I think the stats are so more because two good scorers on the pitch is much more effective than just one. It's as simple as that.

For sure, they team up well every once in a while with some slick passing and finding each other. Most of the time, though, they seem to be on a different page with one making a run when the other thought he was posting up. Someday they might be a cohesive unit but they are not right now. Maybe, a good 10 like Bruno, can help create better chemistry.
 

Siorac

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Adama for me. Hugs the touch line is an attacking threat whilst his stamina will be well compensated by AWB.
He's weirdly overrated on the Caf, frankly. He's a decent player for a mid-table team because he's freakishly strong and quite quick. But in a thread talking about the lack of goals, it must be pointed out that he scored 6 in 71 for Wolves. Just for comparison: Sadio Mané had 25 in 75 for Southampton, Leroy Sané had 13 in 57 for Schalke and 39 in 134 for City - but of course a lot of those were substitute appearances.

Traoré is exactly the sort of player we shouldn't buy. He can "do a job" but he'll never be a top class player.
 

James Ward

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Aug 29, 2014
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How much time does this "Boy" Martial need? He is not a striker.

Overrated, Over hyped, He is not a Manchester United player. Time to get rid.

No wonder he can't make the France squad. He is probably the most overrated player United have had in the last few seasons.