Rashford dropped from senior England squad

I think the decision to have him play for the under-21s is justifiable, despite the fact he was one of the plus points in a disappointing Euros. It makes sense to have him play games as opposed to having him sat on the bench, if you know you're not going to start him.

But to say it's down to lack of game time is mental. It's been two games, so to pick your team based around 180 minutes of football seems absurd. If that was the case then Hart and Smalling would be nowhere near the side.
 
i get everybody's points about last season was way ahead of schedule and what not. But from the moment he broke into the team last season he was one one of the best strikers in the league, he earned his place in the united 11, earned his place in the England squad, looked like the only English player who was going to make things happen when he got his chance in the Euros.

So it must be gutting for him now when you have done everything right, showed you can deliver at the highest level, and start to watch that all slip away when you can't do anything about it because their is no way your getting in the united starting 11 ahead of Zlatan Ibrahimovic no matter how well you play (if you play) in the europa league.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
I think the decision to have him play for the under-21s is justifiable, despite the fact he was one of the plus points in a disappointing Euros. It makes sense to have him play games as opposed to having him sat on the bench, if you know you're not going to start him.

But to say it's down to lack of game time is mental. It's been two games, so to pick your team based around 180 minutes of football seems absurd. If that was the case then Hart and Smalling would be nowhere near the side.
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surely by that logic it would have been better for us to loan him out this year then keep him mainly on the bench?
 
2 Man Midfield said:
But to say it's down to lack of game time is mental. It's been two games, so to pick your team based around 180 minutes of football seems absurd.
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Spot on. Which further illustrates that it really is just an utterly pointless international break. Some players are only just getting back to club football because of the summer tournaments, and now they're off on international duty again.
 
Steven Seagull said:
I was more surprised he went to the Euro's than I am about this decision. Agree with Sam.
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Agree about the Euros. It was way too early for him to be in that squad and I am glad he's not in the squad now.

The reason given for leaving him out is pretty inflammatory though and there's no need for it. Just saying that playing for the u21s is better for his development would have been fine.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
surely by that logic it would have been better for us to loan him out this year then keep him mainly on the bench?
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Not really, i think most people on the forum would rather he stayed here and got as many minutes as possible. He's good enough to get games here, he showed that last season. Whether it be up front, out wide, he tends to contribute something to our play when he's on the field which automatically makes him a valuable member of the squad. Jose just needs to pick him. Zlatan isn't going to be here forever, he should be playing alongside him and learning off him, rather than keeping Rotherham in the Championship.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
surely by that logic it would have been better for us to loan him out this year then keep him mainly on the bench?
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I don't see Ibra starting all games. Rashford will definitely geta lot of minutes this season. We've loaned out the players who wouldn't get game time. Rashford isn't one of them.
 
He needs game time and he'll be much more ikely to get it in the U21 squad. I suspect that's probably the thinking behind it too, possibly even with Mourinho's input.

Don't see it as a problem. Much less annoying than putting him the squad for a major tournament, not using him, then bringing him on with about 3 minutes to go in a knockout game you're losing.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
Not really, i think most people on the forum would rather he stayed here and got as many minutes as possible. He's good enough to get games here, he showed that last season. Whether it be up front, out wide, he tends to contribute something to our play when he's on the field which automatically makes him a valuable member of the squad. Jose just needs to pick him. Zlatan isn't going to be here forever, he should be playing alongside him and learning off him, rather than keeping Rotherham in the Championship.
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i don't think he would be keeping rotherham in the championship, i think if we made it known he was available for loan then we would have a que of premier league clubs at our door, like you said he is good enough to play, last season from when he broke through he was one of the best strikers in the league.

I just don't understand the argument, that he shouldn't go with the England squad, because he isnt going to play, the united squad is better then the England squad so if he is not good enough for the England squad then surely he isnt good enough for united.

If it a minutes issue, then their is no question he would get more minutes on loan then he would at united, like you argue he would in the U21 squad ahead of Senior England squad.

If it an experience issues and Rashford is staying at United for the experience, then you can make that argument about him been in the England squad, it better for him to go be engrained in the squad.....

People just seem to be contradicting themselves alot when it comes to Rashford, I guess because they just hope that everyone is doing right by the guy, and they arn't messing with his devleopment so just hoping for the best and arguing everything that happens is a good thing.
 
In fairness though Daniel Taylor's been a bit of a tart on twitter with his anti Mourinho digs ever since Jose first came back to Chelsea, so if people are reading into his pointless mentioning of Mourinho in a tweet about Rashford being dropped to the England U21s, it's his own bloody fault.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
i don't think he would be keeping rotherham in the championship, i think if we made it known he was available for loan then we would have a que of premier league clubs at our door, like you said he is good enough to play, last season from when he broke through he was one of the best strikers in the league.

I just don't understand the argument, that he shouldn't go with the England squad, because he isnt going to play, the united squad is better then the England squad so if he is not good enough for the England squad then surely he isnt good enough for united.

If it a minutes issue, then their is no question he would get more minutes on loan then he would at united, like you argue he would in the U21 squad ahead of Senior England squad.

If it an experience issues and Rashford is staying at United for the experience, then you can make that argument about him been in the England squad, it better for him to go be engrained in the squad.....

People just seem to be contradicting themselves alot when it comes to Rashford, I guess because they just hope that everyone is doing right by the guy, and they arn't messing with his devleopment so just hoping for the best and arguing everything that happens is a good thing.
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I think a lot of people do think he's good enough for England. He showed that in Portugal. But it's clear Allardyce isn't going to give him minutes for whatever reason, be that he doesn't play enough for his club, or he wants to play Jermain Defoe. In either case, he is better off getting regular football for the under-21s. I only say that because it's clear Big Sam isn't all that interested in picking based on form. But if Jose thinks differently, and is prepared to give him minutes, then why not stay here?

Ok maybe we would have PL clubs wanting to take him on loan, granted. But my point was that he's better off staying here, playing under a manager that might actually want to play him, and learning off some of the best players in the world. That's got to be worth more than playing slightly more games for someone else.

As for the bolded, playing and training with some of the best in the world with United week in week out, and being in the England squad with Cahill and friends once every few months is also slightly different.
 
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His rise was rapid, maybe too rapid, and the possibility of 'too much, too soon' happening to him has become realistic. This will be a nice change of pace. Besides, knowing England's attacking options, he'll be back in the first team in no time.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
I think a lot of people do think he's good enough for England. He showed that in Portugal. But it's clear Allardyce isn't going to give him minutes for whatever reason, be that he doesn't play enough for his club, or he wants to play Jermain Defoe. In which case, he is better off getting regular football for the under-21s. I only say that because it's clear Big Sam isn't all that interested in picking based on form.

Ok maybe we would have PL clubs wanting to take him on loan, granted. But my point was that he's better off staying here, playing under a manager that might actually want to play him, and learning off some of the best players in the world. That's got to be worth more than playing slightly more games for someone else.
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but you can make the same argument your making about allardyce with Mourinho, he isnt picking players on form other wise Rashford would be in there, and he isnt that bothered about giving Rashfords minutes.... in which case he is clearly better off going on loan like you say he is clearly better of in the U21's its the same argument.

if it was only a few extra minutes i would agree with you, but if he goes on loan their is a good chance he could play regularly in the premier league, he is not going to start or even play in the premier league regularly under Mourinho, most of his starts will come in the early rounds of cups and the early rounds of the eurpoa league, which big clubs(including Mourinho big clubs) have a habit of treating like friendlies and not taking entirely seriously, i just don't get what Rashford is going to get out of mainly playing games like that, even if he does get to train with Ibrahimovich. Especially when he has already shown he can deliver in the primer league.
 
MounchesterUtd said:
His rise was rapid, maybe too rapid, and the possibility of 'too much, too soon' happening to him has become realistic. This will be a nice change of pace. Besides, knowing England's attacking options, he'll be back in the first team in no time.
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how can you say his rise was too rapid when he was one of the best strikers in the league last season when he broke through? the kid earned his place in the united team, then earned his place in the England squad, every time he was asked to deliver he did. Now without doing anything wrong he is struggling to get on the pitch.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
how can you say his rise was too rapid when he was one of the best strikers in the league last season when he broke through? the kid earned his place in the united team, then earned his place in the England squad, every time he was asked to deliver he did. Now without doing anything wrong he is struggling to get on the pitch.
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Don't get me wrong. I rate him highly as well, and like you said, he has rightfully staked his claim for both club and country. I was talking more about a Rooney/Fabregas case where either player were spent forces by the time they hit their late 20s.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
but you can make the same argument your making about allardyce with Mourinho, he isnt picking players on form other wise Rashford would be in there, and he isnt that bothered about giving Rashfords minutes.... in which case he is clearly better off going on loan like you say he is clearly better of in the U21's its the same argument.

if it was only a few extra minutes i would agree with you, but if he goes on loan their is a good chance he could play regularly in the premier league, he is not going to start or even play in the premier league regularly under Mourinho, most of his starts will come in the early rounds of cups and the early rounds of the eurpoa league, which big clubs(including Mourinho big clubs) have a habit of treating like friendlies and not taking entirely seriously, i just don't get what Rashford is going to get out of mainly playing games like that, even if he does get to train with Ibrahimovich. Especially when he has already shown he can deliver in the primer league.
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I think you're ignoring a lot of the complexities of club management versus international. Just because Mourinho hasn't started him in 2 matches doesn't mean he's not in his plans. You wouldn't say the same of Mkhitaryan for example. Jose will be keener than anyone to give Rashford minutes, and i'm sure he'll play an important part in our season. If he had no use for him, or felt the same way you do, then he'd have gone out on loan with Januzaj.
 
Doesn't matter, really. The sooner he starts featuring for us again, the sooner he'll give Allardyce no choice, and that's all that really matters.

Plus he needs all the games he can get at this point, so it's probably better for him to get on the pitch for the U21s.
 
MounchesterUtd said:
Don't get me wrong. I rate him highly as well, and like you said, he has rightfully staked his claim for both club and country. I was talking more about a Rooney/Fabregas case where either player were spent forces by the time they hit their late 20s.
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but then if where worries about him playing too much, then the likely hood is he is gonna play more minutes in the U21 England squad then he is if he was in the full squad.......

Also look at players like Giggs who played for ever... Messi started young and is still class at 29.... so it isnt always the case.

Don't get me wrong if you said Rashford is gonna start 50 games this season i would be 100% against it, but i think if we want him to progress in anyway this season we need him start around 30 competitive games this season.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
I think you're ignoring a lot of the complexities of club management versus international. Just because Mourinho hasn't started him in 2 matches doesn't mean he's not in his plans. You wouldn't say the same of Mkhitaryan for example. Jose will be keener than anyone to give Rashford minutes, and i'm sure he'll play an important part in our season. If he had no use for him, or felt the same way you do, then he'd have gone out on loan with Januzaj.
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Their are complexities between club management and international management, but your arguments about why he should go to the U21's and yet stay at united are contradictory.

i wouldn't say the same about Mkhitaryan because Mkhitaryan is 27, it is a completely different kettle of fish, you don't have to worry about a 27 year old not progressing if they don't get game time, because at 27 your pretty much the player your going to be, we don't have to worry about him not progressing. Rashford is a young player who has the potential to be our star striker for the next decade, but needs to be given regular game time for their to be any chance of this happening, not sporadic minutes, not cameo's in different positions, not starts in cups the team isn't taking 100% seriously but competitive league starts as a striker.

You also have to take the politics of the situation, if Mourinho came in and loaned out Rashford after then end of the season he had and Mourinho perceived reputation for not liking to work with younger players then that would be a P.R. disaster. Mourinho was never going to do that. What Mourinho truly thinks will only be seen for how much Rashford gets on the pitch in the league and the later rounds of any cup where in.
 
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Nytram Shakes said:
Their are complexities between club management and international management, but your arguments about thy he should go to the U21's and yet stay at united are contradictory.
i wouldn't say the same about Mkhitaryan because Mkhitaryan is 27, it is a completely different kettle of fish, you don't have to worry about a 27 year old not progressing if they don't get game time, because at 27 your pretty much the player your going to be, we don't have to worry about him not progressing. Rashford is a young player who has the potential to be our star striker for the next decade, but needs to be given regular game time for their to be any chance of this happening, not sporadic minutes, not cameo's in different positions, not starts in cups the team isn't taking 100% seriously but competitive league starts as a striker.
You also have to take the politics of the situation, if Mourinho came in and loaned out Rashford after then end of the season he had and Mourinho perceived reputation for not liking to work with younger players then that would be a P.R. disaster. Mourinho was never going to do that.
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I wasn't comparing Rashford to Mkhitaryan, merely saying that you wouldn't see any other player who also hasn't yet had a look-in accused of not being in the managers plans. One such player just happened to be Mkhitaryan. It could also go for Fosu-Mensah, Schneiderlin, Memphis...take your pick. Jose has explained why this is, and when the games come more frequently i have no doubt he'll be giving Rashford minutes with the rest of them.

I don't see why Mourinho would care about a P.R disaster. If he thought Rashford needed loaning, he would have made him available. It didn't stop him doing so with Januzaj, or with Borthwick-Jackson who also had an impressive breakout season. Haven't seen much of a backlash so far. The fact is Rashford is a striker in our first team, Mourinho clearly thinks he can have a huge impact again this season.
 
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2 Man Midfield said:
I wasn't comparing Rashford to Mkhitaryan, merely saying that you wouldn't see any other player who also hasn't yet had a look-in accused of not being in the managers plans. One such player just happened to be Mkhitaryan. Could also go for Fosu-Mensah, Schneiderlin, Memphis...take your pick. Jose has explained why this is, and when the games come more frequently i have no doubt he'll be giving Rashford minutes with the rest of them.

I don't see why Mourinho would care about a P.R disaster. If he thought Rashford needed loaning, he would have made him available. It didn't stop him doing so with Januzaj. The fact is Rashford is a striker in our first team, Mourinho clearly thinks he can have a huge impact again this season.
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Well not every player is going to get a lot of minutes, Mourinho is not a big rotator their are players who just arn't gonna play much, like i will be truely shocked if we see Fosu-Mensah in the league this year.
of course it would be a P.R. disaster, one of the big question marks over whether Mourinho was the right man for united was the question mark over his record with young players, if he came in and loaned out Rashford after how good he was last season, the criticism that would have been fired at Mourinho would have been insane, even if it was the right move for Rashford.
its also a completely different situation with Januzaj a player whose basicaly been benched for 2 years, loaning that guy out compared to the guy who has just set the league on fire when your been scrutinized for your work with young players are not the same thing.

What Mourinho truly thinks will only be seen for how much Rashford gets on the pitch in the league and the later rounds of any cup where in, and for me i just can't see Rashford getting starts or even regular minutes in those games especially as a striker.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
Well not every player is going to get a lot of minutes, Mourinho is not a big rotator their are players who just arn't gonna play much, like i will be truely shocked if we see Fosu-Mensah in the league this year.
of course it would be a P.R. disaster, one of the big question marks over whether Mourinho was the right man for united was the question mark over his record with young players, if he came in and loaned out Rashford after how good he was last season, the criticism that would have been fired at Mourinho would have been insane, even if it was the right move for Rashford.
its also a completely different situation with Januzaj a player whose basicaly been benched for 2 years, loaning that guy out compared to the guy who has just set the league on fire when your been scrutinized for your work with young players are not the same thing.

What Mourinho truly thinks will only be seen for how much Rashford gets on the pitch in the league and the later rounds of any cup where in, and for me i just can't see Rashford getting starts or even regular minutes in those games especially as a striker.
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Rashford's quality made him unavailable for loan, i'm sure it's not some deep-seated fear of media criticism on the part of the manager. He played himself into the first team, and that's why he's not going out on loan. With CBJ and Januzaj, we're covered in their positions. Rashford is arguably our second choice centre-forward, why loan him out when he'll get opportunities, and is needed?
 
2 Man Midfield said:
Rashford's quality made him unavailable for loan, i'm sure it's not some deep-seated fear of media criticism on the part of the manager. He played himself into the first team, and that's why he's not going out on loan. With CBJ and Januzaj, we're covered in their positions. You could argue Rashford is our second choice centre-forward, why loan him out when he'll get opportunities, and is needed?
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It wouldn't of just been critism from the media, it would have been fans, ex man united stars, send the wrong message to youngsters, prove his critics right, cause concern within the club ..... their was literally no way Mourinho was going to loan out Rashford, it would send every kind of wrong message and he is way smarter then that.

And for all Rashfords proven quality it hasn't got him into the first team, so he's in a position where he is seen as too good to loan out but apparently not ready/not good enough to be in the starting 11, and if you want a young player to progress you really have to go one way or the other.

if he gets the opportunities needed then their is no problem, if he gets around 30 starts as a striker then no problem all's good, but i can't see that happening.
 
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I'm not fussed at all over this to be honest. If he isn't playing full matches for United, I would prefer him to get 90minutes with the U21 to help him keep his match fitness, compared to a few short cameos with the senior team. In the end I was surprised that he got the call up to the England squad so early, and he has plenty of time to get back in the team.
 
I think it's the right move to be honest. Too much too soon is never good. I prefer Rashford to be managed the way he is at the moment by Mourinho -- not a starter, but will get games in cups, etc.

Same with England. There are plenty of forwards, so that's not exactly a position in which England lack talent (the midfield is a shambles, though). Playing in the u21s, or whatever, isn't a bad thing at all -- if he doesn't want to do that after having trained with the senior squad, well you couldn't blame him either.
 
Its not like he was a permanent fixture in the squad anyway. He made his debut a few months ago, played some minutes in the euros and for United will be a squad player. Hardly an outrageous decision to tell him to go to the u21's. He is only 18 after all so its crazy to expect him to be starting games or being a regular like he was last season. Last season was a freak year for him the way he got regular game time and I dont think any premier league club would go into a season with an 18 year old as the main striker, let alone a title challenging one. Thats why I'm not too fussed or worried about the gametime he gets this season. He'll get minutes as a squad player and that will help his development as he isnt at a place where he should be playing every game anyway. Same with england. The occasional first team appearance but he isnt as good as vardy/sturridge/kane yet so why call him up?
 
parisite said:
If you're not getting any serious game time for your club you'll probably not get selected for your country.
It's something players need to take into consideration when signing for clubs like Utd, Rashford still has plenty of time though. Schneiderlin on the other hand needs to ask for a transfer if he still has any international aspirations.
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So Schneiderlin should automatically concede that Fellaini is a better player than him?
 
If he keeps up his good work, then Big Sam would have to call him to the first team. Unless of course Vardy Kane and Rooney have a remarkable performance.
Is Terry there? I would have liked Sam to put Hart on bench and try to give chances to others.
 
"Dropped"? Even though this is a new qualifying tournament for the 2018 World Cup?.. Has he not simply been "not picked and asked to play in the 21's" because that is logical for an 18yo NT aspirant that hasn't had much experience at both NT and club level?

Anyway, England has a pretty obvious problem of talent vampirism with regards to youth players. This is just a common sense move for a player who is quite clearly not ready for first team international football, let alone club level football at a top club. The more games he gets at youth level for England the better in my opinion. Same goes for club appearances, even if they come in the youth team.
 
Personally I think Sam is wrong about Rashford. In a team like United, with all that strength in depth, plus the dearth of decent English players even managing to secure regular places in their Premier League teams awash with foreign, skillful talented players, I don't think he has the luxury of being too picky. Rashford has already proved, to a degree, to be an very good squad option for England, regardless of whether he is regularly playing or not at United.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
i get everybody's points about last season was way ahead of schedule and what not. But from the moment he broke into the team last season he was one one of the best strikers in the league, he earned his place in the united 11, earned his place in the England squad, looked like the only English player who was going to make things happen when he got his chance in the Euros.

So it must be gutting for him now when you have done everything right, showed you can deliver at the highest level, and start to watch that all slip away when you can't do anything about it because their is no way your getting in the united starting 11 ahead of Zlatan Ibrahimovic no matter how well you play (if you play) in the europa league.
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1) Probably not because he no doubt worships Zlatan and what he has achieved in the game and is in awe of him.
2)18 year olds are usually grounded enough to not get upset that they aren't starting ahead of someone they look up to. Jose said Rashford is one of the guys who wants to sit next to Zlatan as one of his groupies around the dinner table. Rashford even admitted its a great opportunity for him to learn from a true superstar striker.
3)Zlatan is still currently top 5 strikers in Europe and scored 50 goals last season. Rashford should know better than to think he can compete with that. He is back up for now, end of.
 
You can't really win. If we'd gone into the new season with Rashford as the main man having not signed a new top striker, the press would be jumping on the fact that we should have strengthened our forward options and how a big club like United shouldn't be heaping that kind of pressure on a lad like Rashford at such a young age.

Sign a top striker which means Rashford is no longer first choice but still an important part of the first team squad and suddenly you aren't giving youth a chance. We're talking about a player who just a season ago was behind James Wilson and Will Keane in the pecking order. His rise has been meteoric and so far ahead of schedule that reining him in a bit will do him no harm whatsoever. Also, we've signed a striker with maybe a couple of years left of his career at this level with an awful lot of experience to pass on to a promising young striker like Rashford. His future couldn't be much brighter.
 
It's just the media making a massive thing of it as usual, build him up and knock him down.

He made it into the squad for the Euros mainly for the experience (poor lad) as 5th choice striker. But when you combine this with his excellent form towards the end of last season, and Mourinho's reputation for not developing youth, it practically writes itself. He's only 18 FFS, and he's only missed two games! Hardly the end of his professional career.

I'd sooner take this over the usual kiss and tell stories they manage to dredge up in the tabloids to knock young players down, though. I also seem to remember one of the papers running a story about one of his relatives having a criminal past shortly after his two goals against Arsenal. British press man, scum of the earth.
 
We were always going to sign a striker that was going to push Rashford down the pecking order this window - Rashford should've been well aware of this. If I was Rashford, the two logical questions would've been:
1. Are United signing just one or two established strikers?
2. How old is this striker - is it going to mean I'll struggle to get into the first team in the future?
The answers to both of those questions are perfect for Rashford's development. He is at one of the biggest clubs in the world, learning from one of the best strikers to ever play whilst almost being guaranteed a first team place in just a couple of years. I'm not sure how it can be much better for him - even him leading the line this season may have been too much pressure for him.
 
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