Redafe Champions League Draft - Akash v Jake

[antohan]

Hmmm, so what happens on the left side, Gio by himself against Robinho and Sagnol with Hagi occasionally pulling out there too? Petit constantly monitoring that side taking away from the strength of the midfield? Im finding it more and more odd, Romario definitely needs someone close him and I can't see it with any of his midfielders or Macca so I would've definitely tried to get Hagi right behind him or even next to him. Romario is too lazy and relatively unprofessional to thrive in a system that isnt properly suited to him and I'm not sure this one is at all.

Hagi is the one close to Romario when he is not occasionally drifting left just because space has happened to open up there. It asks a lot of Gio indeed, but I saw Sergi pull that off for Barca for years and van Bronckhorst could well do it. As Gio (our one) pointed out, Robinho could dally quite a bit on the ball and Petit/Chiellini is at hand as cover.

It wouldn't be Robinho that worries me but Sagnol doubling up, which he will. It's a rather open channel, no doubt. The fundamental question there is how much you rate Gio and how solid are Petit and Chiellini as cover/support. I certainly can see jake getting some joy there, but it's the only place I can see him getting any, thus the all egggs in one basket comment.

It's the sort of thing that happens quite a lot in games and here we seem to jump at as "glaring weaknesses" or not based on 2 vs. 1 scenarios and the like. Would it make a significant difference to not have a third midfielder and have Recoba out left instead? Not at all. I reckon akash would be poorer in that scenario as a much more dangerous Eric Cantona would be unshackled. Recoba would only come on if you need a goal or Sagnol is really turning into too big a problem that he needs to be given something more to think about.

Would be interestin to hear BD and NM's reasons for voting akash given that a Jake loss would mean they can get Messi!

You and Snow are still a bit sore about tactical/sentimental voting over rational approaches, aren't you?

 

[Moby]

Yeah, with that said I'd worry about your left flank, considering people have pointed out that the right flank of Jake could cause the most problems for you. Chiellini could cover, being a former lb, but he and Cannavaro have Messi and Cantona to deal with too. Seems a bit convoluted all in all.

Anyway, that's enough from me, good luck to both teams.

That is how it has worked in all x-mas tree formations. Milan had Serginho who was again great attacking wise and used to go forward a lot, and they coped. Our system is not different to that, with Pep doing the Pirlo bit here controlling the game and Hagi providing the magic up front a la Kaka. The two tireless midfielders doing the job in between them.

 

[Fergus' son]

Cutch had Ronaldinho, I'm sure atleast 3 or 4 just saw his name and voted for thier team on that basis, even without looking at the rest of the set up!

I think we should leave the bitterness and conspiracy theories out of this, but yes, it would help if voting managers could justify thier choice, even if it's briefly.

 

[antohan]

Agreed, no harm done and if participating managers don't contribute to the discussion, then it's one endless anto monologue . I'll call it a day myself too!

 

[TheGame]

I feel Akash could do with one more attack minded midfielder instead of perhaps Petit as he has Baraja and Pep in their anyway.

 

[antohan]

I would argue Petit shouldn't go as he provides defensive solidity and cover for that left flank.

Baraja was some player though, a great all-rounder with a great shot on him. I would be delighted to have a young injury-free Baraja in our midfield today.

 

[Cutch]

You and Snow are still a bit sore about tactical/sentimental voting over rational approaches, aren't you?

No, I genuinely think in their case with so much to gain it would be just nice to hear the reasons.

Really can't understand how Jakes losin this.

 

[Theon]

It wouldn't be Robinho that worries me but Sagnol doubling up, which he will. It's a rather open channel, no doubt. The fundamental question there is how much you rate Gio and how solid are Petit and Chiellini as cover/support. I certainly can see jake getting some joy there, but it's the only place I can see him getting any, thus the all egggs in one basket comment.

Sagnol doubling up is the only place Jake will get any joy?

You sure about that?

 

[Cutch]

Cutch had Ronaldinho, I'm sure atleast 3 or 4 just saw his name and voted for thier team on that basis, even without looking at the rest of the set up!

I think we should leave the bitterness and conspiracy theories out of this, but yes, it would help if voting managers could justify thier choice, even if it's briefly.

Nah sure they all criticised him for not trackin back!

 

[Moby]

Any video of him playing for Argentina?

 

[EDogen]

wow.. been away for a couple of hours and now akash in front!

Will update me on the thread and wait with my vote until the second half!

 

[antohan]

Sagnol doubling up is the only place Jake will get any joy?

You sure about that?

By having joy I refer to paths of least resistance to carve out openings, again, having to spell things out for you, jack in the box...

I'm obviously not referring to who scores, it certainly wouldn't be Sagnol would it? I'm referring to creating openings. I think the midfield creation in jake's side is pretty shot, his left flank is less balanced/weaker than akash's right, and it is only on that right flank that he will carve out regular openings through doubling up.

I'm fully expecting that it would be primarily Messi exploiting them. As I said though, Messi has a tougher challenge with his markers than Romario with his.

 

[Theon]

By having joy I refer to paths of least resistance to carve out openings, again, having to spell things out for you, jack in the box...

I'm obviously not referring to who scores, it certainly wouldn't be Sagnol would it? I'm referring to creating openings. I think the midfield creation in jake's side is pretty shot, his left flank is less balanced/weaker than akash's right, and it is only on that right flank that he will carve out regular openings through doubling up.

I'm fully expecting that it would be primarily Messi exploiting them. As I said though, Messi has a tougher challenge with his markers than Romario with his.

What are you talking about!?!

You need to be clearer with the language you use, in the last game TheGame was 'weaker all over the pitch', despite having a better attack.

In this game Sagnol is the 'only place Jake will get joy', when he has Cantona and Messi on the pitch... mental.

Try and spin it by saying you are talking about creating chances, it doesn't change anything. Messi creates his own chances better than any player I have ever seen, he'll drop deep and skip around Guardiola and Chiellini like they aren't even there.

If that isn't creating openings I'm not sure what is.

 

[Fergus' son]

Have to agree, Anto does pick some odd words.

 

[Moby]

What are you talking about!?!

You need to be clearer with the language you use, in the last game TheGame was 'weaker all over the pitch', despite having a better attack.

In this game Sagnol is the 'only place Jake will get joy', when he has Cantona and Messi on the pitch... mental.

Try and spin it by saying you are talking about creating chances, it doesn't change anything. Messi creates his own chances better than any player I have ever seen, he'll drop deep and skip around Guardiola and Chiellini like they aren't even there.

If that isn't creating openings I'm not sure what is.

Maradona thought the same. Messi ended up getting pocketed by Bastian Schweinsteiger. Without a proper striker in the team Messi cannot afford to be all over the pitch and still hope to be on a 5 men beating run every time he gets the ball. We are considering peaks here and Cannavaro at his peak gave that monumental performance in 2006, which stands out in all defensive performances in the history of World Cups. Pep made Cruyff's dream team tick, reached two European Cup finals and won one, it's just not fair to say they would be bypassed like they weren't there. These are not your run of the mill La Liga goons.

 

[Aboutreika18]

I don't think Messi is being used properly:

- His best form has been as a false 9 with space behind him to drop into and with Cantona's presence this isn't possible
- He works well with a couple of widemen around him with intelligent positioning (Pedro, Eto'o, Lavezzi also worked quite well in this role for Argentina)
- Xabi and Mascherano won't be able to provide him with enough proper service IMO, especially against Akash's midfield three

 

[Theon]

Maradona thought the same. Messi ended up getting pocketed by Bastian Schweinsteiger. Without a proper striker in the team Messi cannot afford to be all over the pitch and still hope to be on a 5 men beating run every time he gets the ball.

There is no proper striker in Barcelona's team, he still drops off and gets possession. Just look at his goals ffs.

I'm not even having this conversation - I like your team and havent even voted, but trying to downplay Messi is an extreme case of clutching at straws. Cannavaro was a very good defender, but you could stick Maldini and Nesta back there and you wouldn't bet against Messi scoring.

 

[Moby]

There is no proper striker in Barcelona's team, he still drops off and gets possession. Just look at his goals ffs.

I'm not even having this conversation - I like your team and havent even voted, but trying to downplay Messi is an extreme case of clutching at straws. Cannavaro was a very good defender, but you could stick Maldini and Nesta back there and you wouldn't bet against Messi scoring.

Not downplaying Messi, just downplaying Jake's tactics to use him. He should not have been paired up with Cantona. His play works at barca simply because he has enough movement around him all over the pitch to rotate freely with anyone. My point was that you should not underestimate tactics because you have extra ordinary players. Maradona did that and paid for it.

People saying messi can play on the right in this game, on what basis? Do they think Cantona would be at his best playing up front? Is me saying Messi had a proper striker in Eto'o when he was at his best on the right wrong? That's plain evidence.

 

[Moby]

And for the last part, if you really believe that, why bother in having a tournament then? Let's just give it to the team with messi because no matter what you say, you cannot stop him and he will score no matter who you have in the team and win the game right? That just defeats the whole purpose of what we are doing.

 

[Theon]

Not downplaying Messi, just downplaying Jake's tactics to use him. He should not have been paired up with Cantona. His play works at barca simply because he has enough movement around him all over the pitch to rotate freely with anyone. My point was that you should not underestimate tactics because you have extra ordinary players. Maradona did that and paid for it.

Of course. Cantona was a very bad choice for a partnership, I said the same thing in this thread!

Absolutely.

That was an initial concern when Jake picked Cantona, and it definitely isn't a particularly complimentary partnership.

But that doesn't change how good he is, and more than anything else I think it's a waste of Cantona not Messi. I don't overly see how Messi would be constrained by having Cantona there, it's Eric who will play second fiddle.

 

[Moby]

Messi in his current role is doing what he does best. He will score, no doubt. I raised arguments against people who are saying he should be moved to the right to exploit Gio leaving absolutely no one up front, which isn't logical and has evidence to support the contrary.

 

[Cutch]

Think Jakes centre midfield pairing is being very underrated in this game. This is a pair that unlike the opposition are proven to work together. The 2 were fantastic together at Liverpool. Its assumed that all it takes is to have an extra body in their to gain control, but Mascherano is tireless doing the work of a couple of men and was as good a ball winner as i've seen. Alonso complements him very well.

Don't agree with the question marks over Messi and Cantona. The 2 are simply too good not to be able to work well together. I have more doubts over there opposite numbers, with where Hagi is positioned and the known to be lazy Romario expected to do all the running on his own upfront.

 

[Theon]

And for the last part, if you really believe that, why bother in having a tournament then? Let's just give it to the team with messi because no matter what you say, you cannot stop him and he will score no matter who you have in the team and win the game right? That just defeats the whole purpose of what we are doing.

Don't be childish, that's completely exagerrating what I said.

In this same thread I said that Romario would get a few goals, and when I see Brazillian Ronaldo in a team I automatically suspect he'll score in the game. The best strikers generally did.. and Ronaldo's, Romario's Messi's goal record isn't something you just ignore. You talk about evidence in your post above, well Messi's goal record is evidence that he's likely to grab a goal - he scored 70 in one season.

I'm not even a Messi fan and I voted against him in the AllTime Draft for example, so you're just being absurd here Aldo - I am not against your team.

My point is that any comment which says Sagnol is Jake's only source of joy is ridiculous when he has Messi in his team. It's an awful argument which just doesn't wash, considering how incredibly talented he is.

 

[Gio]

I think the question is can Cantona play up top? I'm not the United fan on here so wouldn't really know if he's done that job at all and whether he's done it well?

 

[Moby]

Don't be childish, that's completely exagerrating what I said.

In this same thread I said that Romario would get a few goals, and when I see Brazillian Ronaldo in a team I automatically suspect he'll score in the game. The best strikers generally did.. and Ronaldo's, Romario's Messi's goal record isn't something you just ignore. You talk about evidence in your post above, well Messi's goal record is evidence that he's likely to grab a goal - he scored 70 in one season.

I'm not even a Messi fan and I voted against him in the AllTime Draft for example, so you're just being absurd here Aldo - I am not against your team.

My point is that any comment which says Sagnol is Jake's only source of joy is ridiculous when he has Messi in his team. It's an awful argument which just doesn't wash, considering how incredibly talented he is.

Don't think anyone can deny Messi scoring goals when he's playing up front, which is where his insane goal tallies came from. Saying he would pass players like Pep and Cannavaro like they are not there is still unfair. It doesn't mean they will stop him but they will make it tougher than he has had week inw eek out in La Liga. It's like putting Zanetti against Ronaldiho. Do we think anyone can stop Dinho when he's in mood? Probably not but he will still garner more respect than someone average.

 

[Theon]

Don't think anyone can deny Messi scoring goals when he's playing up front, which is where his insane goal tallies came from. Saying he would pass players like Pep and Cannavaro like they are not there is still unfair. It doesn't mean they will stop him but they will make it tougher than he has had week inw eek out in La Liga. It's like putting Zanetti against Ronaldiho. Do we think anyone can stop Dinho when he's in mood? Probably not but he will still garner more respect than someone average.

The bolded is all I was saying, and so many of his goals are created for himself - turning and running at defenders etc.

I deliberately didn't say he would run past Cannavaro, as I said here he is capable of stopping Messi.

I'm not a huge Cannavaro fan (steals too much credit from my boy Nesta) but he would stick to Messi like glue and you wouldn't bet against him somehow keeping him quiet.

I don't think Pep would have a hope of stopping him or keeping up with him though.

 

[Fergus' son]

Think Jakes centre midfield pairing is being very underrated in this game. This is a pair that unlike the opposition are proven to work together. The 2 were fantastic together at Liverpool. Its assumed that all it takes is to have an extra body in their to gain control, but Mascherano is tireless doing the work of a couple of men and was as good a ball winner as i've seen. Alonso complements him very well.

Don't agree with the question marks over Messi and Cantona. The 2 are simply too good not to be able to work well together. I have more doubts over there opposite numbers, with where Hagi is positioned and the known to be lazy Romario expected to do all the running on his own upfront.

Just voted for Jake in case I dont get time tommorow for some of those very reasons.

I think the question is can Cantona play up top? I'm not the United fan on here so wouldn't really know if he's done that job at all and whether he's done it well?

I don't see the problem with Cantona and Messi, particularly with those midfielders and full backs supporting. Robinho and Ljungberg could help out the very solid Xabi/Masch partnership comfortably knowing that RC and WS can provide the width. This would leave Messi and Cantona to work out between themselves, with both being extremely intelligent. Cantona would certainly love it, he always has played with someone else up top and he has one of the goats to do so with now, what's the problem? Only thing I would suggest is that Messi's creativity would take more a back seat than usual but it would still be evident, and I would still back him creating something for one of his teammates.

 

[Cutch]

Couple of very good posts about Romario from another poster on here just to back up my earlier point. See bolded part which is a fair point, who's the partner that's gonna do all the running for him?

What I thought would be pointed out is that Romario (and I love the guy) was one of the most lazy, utterly reliant on natural brilliance type of top tier strikers there has been.

His game was based around very short, elusive bursts of acceleration across diagonals and he always played with a support striker in close vicinity to him to not only act as a decoy but to be the perfect buffer in tabela type (one-two's etc) build-ups.

He was also a notoriously awful trainer - because for his type of game he never had to make much effort as he's a naturally brilliant player, ergo, his general stamina as a man leading the line in a 4-3-3 should be questioned.

As with the two paragraphs above, Romario was also not a player who would arse himself to run or even jog if a play wasn't on. In a 4-3-3, or any system where he has to 'run the line' for himself or others, there should be serious question marks about not only his stamina and ability to do so, but his willingness, as well.

If we're going to pick up on Garrincha being a forward; someone absolutely renowned for not tracking back or doing any work outside of the final third, we should probably be picking up on Romario's numerous idiosyncracies as well.

In terms of effort and work-rate, Berbatov is about the closest to Romario you're going to find out there, the big difference being Romario was devastating with the few bits of effort he would put into a game and never marveled at his own brilliance. As far as Romario was concerned, as long he got a couple of goals or won his side the match, he was golden, and he got a free pass for being so idle a player because of his propensity for delivering.

He is not a guy who is going to lead a line or appreciate being tasked with doing so as his game was about subtlety, guile and outright deception. He won't compensate for his height by running more either..

I've got to wonder how long he would be interested in ploughing a lone furrow. Personally, I don't think he would last a half if he was doing all the things a lead the line striker is supposed to do rather than playing as he did.. and if he played as he did, I don't see how he is going to give those supporting him enough.

An issue with some of the sides in the draft is in marrying systems and logistics of undeniably brilliant players and in Cruyff - who comes from an ideology of complete effort and graft, you've a massive clash with the staccato motions of the Brazilian up front who came to life in minute bursts of intensity with that natural languid style he had. I could see it working if Romario would 'try harder' but his entire career and his adamance as an individual suggest that if things weren't going smoothly, he'd just shut up shop.

Once again, this isn't a knock on Romario or Edogen; Romario is one of my favourite players of all-time, but outside of a South American or Latin system, I do not see him being optimized.

It should be noted that Romario always had a partner in crime during his time at the very top. He forged magical partnerships with: Stoichkov, Bebeto, Edmundo, Ronaldo and in all of them the common denominator was the tight one and two touch play and the fact every single one of them did more work than he did. Like I said, his game was about cunning and short, intensive bursts of brilliance. The guy is not ever going to run hard for half a half let alone a full game, so that needs to be catered for, imo.

 

[Gio]

Messi in his current role is doing what he does best. He will score, no doubt. I raised arguments against people who are saying he should be moved to the right to exploit Gio leaving absolutely no one up front, which isn't logical and has evidence to support the contrary.

It's logical because Van Bronckhorst is the weakest link in that defence and he'd be exposed in one-on-one situations, especially given the lack of flank support from Hagi. Whereas in the middle you'll have Cannavaro and Chiellini on his arse - even if he drops into midfield it's a clusterfeck with three central midfielders to contend with. Jake's team aren't going to dominate the game like Barcelona so we cannot assume that replicating his role in that team will yield the same results. There has also been occasions where I've felt Guardiola/Vilanova should have moved Messi out wide when Barcelona have been crowded out of games. The Celtic match was a telling example - they created next to nothing for 85 minutes and then moved Messi to the right and scored straight away and almost got another. Obviously we all agree that Messi and Cantona were a questionable combination.

 

[Moby]

BTW did Ljunberg ever play on the left? Wasn't it always Pires/Wiltord/Henry taking up that flank?

 

[Fergus' son]

I think the question is can Cantona play up top? I'm not the United fan on here so wouldn't really know if he's done that job at all and whether he's done it well?

To answer this more specifically, I don't remember him playing for Utd up top by himself, he always had a partner iirc. However, I'd see no issue of him play as a lone CF, if Messi and Robinho were the wing forwards, in fact I think it would be quite good.

 

[Theon]

BTW did Ljunberg ever play on the left? Wasn't it always Pires/Wiltord/Henry taking up that flank?

Yup, he was on the right usually.

That Cole/Pires/Henry left flank, with the latter drifting wide, was one of the best I have ever seen.

 

[Fergus' son]

BTW did Ljunberg ever play on the left? Wasn't it always Pires/Wiltord/Henry taking up that flank?

Must say, I don't remember many games at all of him on the left. Strange decision from Jake because I think the team works better with Robinho on the left and Ljungberg on the right anyway, can't think why he has opted for the other way round.

 

[Moby]

It's logical because Van Bronckhorst is the weakest link in that defence and he'd be exposed in one-on-one situations, especially given the lack of flank support from Hagi. Whereas in the middle you'll have Cannavaro and Chiellini on his arse - even if he drops into midfield it's a clusterfeck with three central midfielders to contend with. Jake's team aren't going to dominate the game like Barcelona so we cannot assume that replicating his role in that team will yield the same results. There has also been occasions where I've felt Guardiola/Vilanova should have moved Messi out wide when Barcelona have been crowded out of games. The Celtic match was a telling example - they created next to nothing for 85 minutes and then moved Messi to the right and scored straight away and almost got another. Obviously we all agree that Messi and Cantona were a questionable combination.

The reason they didn't IMO was again the lack of a proper striker up front. Ever since Eto'o's departure Messi has moved towards the middle and Barca haven't had a striker of similar ilk to allow Messi roam elsewhere. I think they tried it with the likes of Cesc playing up front in the first half on 11/12 season and it didn't work and Messi eventually had to return to that position to get the amount of goals he did.

Few have said here that looking at his career he would be suited well for a proper number 10 role which again comes from the fact that he's more likely to combine well with a number 9 than play as false 9 with a number 10 behind him and collide with him. Here if he goes wide, he will no doubt run Gio ragged but would have to give up the position from which he scored those record breaking goals.

 

[Theon]

Must say, I don't remember many games at all of him on the left. Strange decision from Jake because I think the team works better with Robinho on the left and Ljungberg on the right anyway, can't think why he has opted for the other way round.

Anto touched on it before, but the idea seems to have been that the left flank would be too attacking with Carlos and Robinho, so he wanted to even the flanks up a bit and make them more balanced.

 

[Gio]

The reason they didn't IMO was again the lack of a proper striker up front. Ever since Eto'o's departure Messi has moved towards the middle and Barca haven't had a striker of similar ilk to allow Messi roam elsewhere. I think they tried it with the likes of Cesc playing up front in the first half on 11/12 season and it didn't work and Messi eventually had to return to that position to get the amount of goals he did.

Few have said here that looking at his career he would be suited well for a proper number 10 role which again comes from the fact that he's more likely to combine well with a number 9 than play as false 9 with a number 10 behind him and collide with him. Here if he goes wide, he will no doubt run Gio ragged but would have to give up the position from which he scored those record breaking goals.

Indeed. But still, 38 goals in 08/09 from the right flank, good enough for me when the alternative is an Ibra/Messi style clash in the centre.

 

[Moby]

Indeed. But still, 38 goals in 08/09 from the right flank, good enough for me when the alternative is an Ibra/Messi style clash in the centre.

And which is why I've been banging about Jake not having an Eto'o-esque player to relive that role from Messi. Again I'm not implying that he would be invisible on that side, but Eto'o played a huge role in occupying the CBs a lot of times to allow Messi more space and more importantly give him someone to feed in the box. If he does move to the left Chiellini can as easily follow him and double mark him on that side, so it won't be him v Gio one on one skinning him the whole time.

I think this was the best Jake could have done with his team. I would have done the same but I would have never picked Cantona with Messi. Messi as false 9 with two proper wing forwards and a strong 3 man midfield and you have the game in your pocket, why pick players to screw that system. But anyway him up front with Cantona occupying the space between him and the midfield would be a lot better than him wide right with Cantona still sitting deep and having no one to feed in case he happens to not beat 3-4 men on a run.

 

[Moby]

Anto touched on it before, but the idea seems to have been that the left flank would be too attacking with Carlos and Robinho, so he wanted to even the flanks up a bit and make them more balanced.

Sounds bizarre. That could easily make Ljunberg ineffective in an unfamiliar position. Could have been understandable if he was someone who had played on both flanks a lot but I really have no memory of Ljunberg on the left.

 

[Fergus' son]

Anto touched on it before, but the idea seems to have been that the left flank would be too attacking with Carlos and Robinho, so he wanted to even the flanks up a bit and make them more balanced.

Yeah. I was thinking Messi would pull out to the right on occasion and that Freddie would provide better cooperation for that. Both of his wingers could cut in as much as they could go out wide but I would rather Robinhos pace and trickery on the left if Messi pulled to the right, and I would trust Freddie to tuck in from the right and help Xabi/Masch more so than Robinho too. Jake did well with his flank combos I think, Chivu and Puyol being capable fullbacks themselves help a great deal.

 

[Theon]

This is what he wrote in the OP. He should be defending his team more, there has been a lot of debate he could have weighed in on

Robinho is one of the best dribblers of the ball in the world, and when he gets going is literally unstoppable, his flair, skill, tricks, magic, whatever you want to call it, will entertain, will destroy defenders confidence, and most importantly produce results. He’s playing in front of the slightly more conservative fullback Sagnol to start, but can swap out to the left if needs me.