Redafe Champions League Draft - kps v Isotope

[Snow]

No, he got most of those as a second striker, withdrawn, and primarily on the left. Look up any youtube clip of his goals and you will see a fair share is him receiving at inside left and letting fly from outside the box.

The Golden Ball certainly was as a playmaker at inside left, never a striker.

He also played his best football in counter-attacking sides. Unless he is some sort of Inzaghi (which he isn't), you can't quite draw a line between being a striker and an inside left in that sort of side. He was forging his own opportunities from deep and involved in build up, not just standing up there in the box waiting for the ball.

Never a striker? What, Villarreal and Atletico Madrid didn't play with players on the left? It was just Forlán all to himself? Who was up top as the main striker in his Villarreal days then? In three of his 4 seasons he had Reyes with him on the left at Atletico. I can't remember a single time that Villarreal or Atletico Madrid played with Forlan in the starting lineup and he was on the left in a 4-5-1 or a 4-4-2 tactic.

During the WC, what was Uruguay's midfield like? 2 players in the center with an attacking midfielder in front of them and Suarez on the right?

 

[Moby]

Forlan's heat maps in the World Cup when he got the Golden Ball :

Against Germany (3rd place playoff)

Against Holland (Semi Final)

Against Ghana

Against South Korea

Against Mexico

Clearly you can see how far he was from goal at times. It is quite evident that he had a much larger role than to sit in front waiting for the ball to arrive which is Antohan's point here. He did a lot of donkey work, creating chances, roaming all over the pitch and most of the time in deep positions.

 

[kps88]

The way I see it is Isotope's midfield will gain a foothold of possession but the quadrant of

Kohler Costacurta​

Cambiasso Davids​

will limit how effectively that is used in areas that will hurt Kps' team.

Yep that's what I said before. I like Eto'o, but I can't see him doing much up on his own against that pair. You need more of a goal threat against those CB's (Forlan as an inside forward would have worried me). As it stands, they don't have much to worry about.

Will once again highlight the Ronaldo factor here, since it really is important. If people think Heinze is a weakness, then Ronaldo vs Coentrao should be carnage. I personally think he could get the better of Campbell too. He's the biggest goal scoring threat in this game (especially on the break) and Iso hasn't outlined any plans to stop him.

 

[Isotope]

The way I see it is Isotope's midfield will gain a foothold of possession but the quadrant of

Kohler Costacurta​

Cambiasso Davids​

will limit how effectively that is used in areas that will hurt Kps' team.​

Those midfield aren't capable of launching a counter attack. And his fullbck in Heinze and Salgado aren't that fast enough to provide width and defending. Ronaldo and Killy won't help them defensively. I can see Boban and Angloma would be too much for Heinze to defend himself alone. Then, limiting Davids and Cambiasso just to defend, lessening their other best threat; which is going forward to support attack.

When my team 'kill' Riquelme (which Redondo is capable of), their attack would be just individuals. CRonaldo, Killy, and Vieri are all opportunist. CRonaldo works well with Benzema, Rooney, or Tevez type of strikers, who are completely different with Vieri or Higuain type.

It's been proven that team with better teamwork, would defeat team even with better individuals but less cohesion.

 

[Isotope]

Yep that's what I said before. I like Eto'o, but I can't see him doing much up on his own against that pair. You need more of a goal threat against those CB's (Forlan as an inside forward would have worried me). As it stands, they don't have much to worry about.

Will once again highlight the Ronaldo factor here, since it really is important. If people think Heinze is a weakness, then Ronaldo vs Coentrao should be carnage. I personally think he could get the better of Campbell too. He's the biggest goal scoring threat in this game (especially on the break) and Iso hasn't outlined any plans to stop him.

Ribery is capable of 20 goals (19 assists) in a season. It could be more if his partner on the other side at Bayern wouldn't be so (justifiably) greedy. Boban can chip in with 15 goals a season also.

And never any top side in the world having TWO players they need to carry in terms of work rate. You have CRonaldo and Riquelme, which is overkill against any top team; especially against my team who has better work rate, teamwork, and not so far in terms of quality. Riquelme need the whole team built around him, and so is CRonaldo. Who would you choose, would lessen the impact of the other.

Then you have another arrogant player in Kily on the other side. Where I don't think CRonaldo would work well with Kily, and with Vieri.

 

[Balu]

I really really want to vote for you, Isotope, but I really can't see you scoring . I like your team better but if you need Ribery to score in important close games, you've done something wrong. He will create chances against anyone, imo, but others have to put them away. You should have gone with Ferguson's suggestion, Ribery on the right would have created a lot, dragged the defenders out of position and Forlan around the penatly box would have made it even more difficult to defend.

 

[Isotope]

That's fine, Balu. Forlan on left would expose Coentrao against Ronaldo, which is a suicide. With Ribery, he'd be willing to help his fullback. I think given the opportunity to score more, he will rise to it. He did score 20 goals in 2007/08; and with Boban and Valeron as the main creativity (instead of putting the burden on Ribery), I think he would score more.

But it's all about preference. Barca against United in 2011 CL Final. Barca dominate the midfield so much, United looked knackered after chasing ball almost all the game. Then you start to see the like of Pedro could score a goal, against a defence of Vidic-Rio-Evra with Van der Sar in goal.

 

[Balu]

I think the past years showed that the way to limit Ronaldo's influence isn't to use a second player to mark him out, but to cut his support. He's not playing like a winger who goes down the line, who wants to create. He's making smart runs inside the box without the ball and very often is up against your centerbacks anyway. You don't need Ribery to do a lot defensive work against him, imo.

Of course depends on which Ronaldo is playing in this game. Ronaldo 05-08 is very different to Ronaldo 08-13.

 

[Moby]

And the support is well cut here. Redondo will gobble up Riquelme with ease, with all due respect to the Argentine. It's pretty much like the Barca-Madrid games of recent times, where Ozil is not allowed any time on the ball and we have seen Ronaldo starve in a corner of the pitch. With the distribution that would be an issue. Iso's goal threat is indeed less at the moment but with control in midfield he will have a lot more chances for his forward players.

 

[antohan]

Never a striker? What, Villarreal and Atletico Madrid didn't play with players on the left? It was just Forlán all to himself? Who was up top as the main striker in his Villarreal days then? In three of his 4 seasons he had Reyes with him on the left at Atletico. I can't remember a single time that Villarreal or Atletico Madrid played with Forlan in the starting lineup and he was on the left in a 4-5-1 or a 4-4-2 tactic.

During the WC, what was Uruguay's midfield like? 2 players in the center with an attacking midfielder in front of them and Suarez on the right?

I said Forlán could and should have been playing from inside left. As Aldo's heatmaps show, he is not a striker who just waits up in the box for someone to get the ball over to him.

I never said he wouldn't benefit from his side also having a left winger around, of course he would. That would give him more service, reduce his workload and the heat /attention from defenders who have another player to also worry about. That just wasn't possible here unfortunately as there's four at the back and a three man midfield. Coentrao provides width though, and Boban through the middle wrapped up the midfield.

Forlán at Villarreal: main striker indeed, he had a Pichichi in his first season then teams were more cautious about him and worked him out. Not his peak.
Forlán at Atlético: second striker operating from deep and on the left, was there a left winger? Yes.
Forlán for Uruguay up until Copa América 2011: inside left, no winger on the left but a wingback (Pereira)

Forlán's peak was 2007/8- WC2010. He wasn't the main striker then and his play was closer to that of an inside left than an out and out striker.

 

[antohan]

That's fine, Balu. Forlan on left would expose Coentrao against Ronaldo, which is a suicide. With Ribery, he'd be willing to help his fullback. I think given the opportunity to score more, he will rise to it. He did score 20 goals in 2007/08; and with Boban and Valeron as the main creativity (instead of putting the burden on Ribery), I think he would score more.

But it's all about preference. Barca against United in 2011 CL Final. Barca dominate the midfield so much, United looked knackered after chasing ball almost all the game. Then you start to see the like of Pedro could score a goal, against a defence of Vidic-Rio-Evra with Van der Sar in goal.

Iso, you keep mixing up things which are somewhat incompatible. You talk about Ribery 2012-13 and how he can help his fullback defensively, then quote his goalscoring record from five years ago. He will not defend AND score 20 goals a season.

Barca tired that United side out playing football in a way your midfield is unlikely to. Valerón would probably be awesome at tiki taka but the fact is none of those players -bar Boban and Albertini- ever played together and none of them played in tiki taka setups.

Coentrao attacking isn't suicidal, it's what he is any good for. Coentrao can't stop Ronaldo and putting Ribery on his case all you are doing is almost ensuring your entire flank is useless just to keep Ronaldo as quiet as possible.

I know the amount of support a winger gives to his fullback is relevant, but sometimes it gets overdone in these drafts to the point people start playing wingers for their defensive attributes and not their ability to break down a rival team. It's bonkers.

Your entire side seems to be defending and hoping at some point, somehow, Eto'o will get the better of Billy Costacurta, Kohler and Peruzzi.

I really can't see you scoring, and for all the shackling you do Riquelme will spray a few balls over the course of the game, Cambiasso is a poor man's second coming of Redondo but CAN pass a ball, Kily has a few good crosses in him, and any of those three can find Ronaldo or Vieri running onto a ball in acres of space, or winning the aerial battle in your box.

They are both fecking deadly and two of the best headers of a ball I've seen in my lifetime.

I rate Campbell very highly, but not the rest of your core defensive three.

kps WILL score.

 

[Balu]

I don't think the reason Ribery won't score is because he's doing a lot defensively. He's simply not a clinical finisher. Ribery started working a lot defensively in 10/11 and since then his total numbers (goals + assists) easily surpassed his first year at Bayern every season. Ribery at his peak is him in the last two seasons and that's a creative hard working wide playmaker with a few great goals mostly against weaker opponents. The CL final this year sums him up perfectly. He was working hard for the team, helping out defensively, staying deeper to increase the control in midfield but in the end he was the one who created both goals, the brilliant pass for Robben's assist for the first goal and the (a bit lucky) assist for the second goal. There's no way he would have been the one scoring in that match. 07/08 Ribery was a flair player in a very weak league (The difference between german football back then and today is beyond imagination, really).

Agree with the rest of your post.

/edit: he never scored 20 goals in a season anyway. But he scored 17 goals in all competitions (CL, league and cup) in 11/12. I think that was his best output in goals for Bayern. In 07/08 he scored 11 in the league, 2 in the german FA cup and 3 in the UEFA cup.

 

[antohan]

I agree Balu, I found it odd he brought up that stat because I never really considered Ribery as a likely goalscorer, whether defending or not. It's also players at their peak so you can't go around picking different peaks in different aspects of the game.

PS: the stats on wiki read 20 for his first year at Bayern, 11 league, 3 cup, 3 Europe and 3 in "other competitions".

 

[Balu]

Other competitions

The Bundesliga had a league cup back then. A pre-season mini tournament between the league champion, the cup winner and the 4 best placed teams in the league. Bayern won the "competition" but I'd call these games glorified friendlies, less important than the community shield in England. No one really liked that tournament and that year was the last time it took place, now we have a super cup just like all the other leagues. But yeah, he was brilliant, he probably scored the 3 goals in those games. Every Bayern supporter loved watching him and got excited for the new season after finishing 4th the year before.

 

[kps88]

Good game Iso. Who knows what would have happened if you arranged your front three differently.

 

[Gio]

Kps has put together a robust unit and the likes of Kohler, Davids and Vieri were strong picks. That's tournament-winning quality right through the spine of the team.

 

[Fergus' son]

I'd be looking to upgrade Vieri ASAP.

 

[antohan]

Other competitions

The Bundesliga had a league cup back then. A pre-season mini tournament between the league champion, the cup winner and the 4 best placed teams in the league. Bayern won the "competition" but I'd call these games glorified friendlies, less important than the community shield in England. No one really liked that tournament and that year was the last time it took place, now we have a super cup just like all the other leagues. But yeah, he was brilliant, he probably scored the 3 goals in those games. Every Bayern supporter loved watching him and got excited for the new season after finishing 4th the year before.

That must be it, three goals in two "other comps" games it was. I can only imagine the fapfest!

 

[antohan]

Kps has put together a robust unit and the likes of Kohler, Davids and Vieri were strong picks. That's tournament-winning quality right through the spine of the team.

I'd be looking to upgrade Vieri ASAP.

Vieri? He is one of the best available to lead the line AND a non-winner. Not Ronaldo, but not bad at all.

I would quite happily field Peruzzi, Costacurta, Kohler, Davids, Cristiano and Vieri in a final. The other five would have to compliment them but that's a good basis to work off.

All but Vieri are CL-winners. I would suggest kps needs to keep an eye on that factor and prioritise getting shot of CL-winners he wouldn't take to a final (Cambiasso/Salgado... Costacurta only if a top non-winner is available).

Kily will do for now but not too long. Riquelme will be his undoing if he doesn't get replaced. Heinze less so.

Cambiasso, Riquelme and Salgado/Heinze/Kily would be my hit list.

BTW, Redondo is now a free agent

 

[Fergus' son]

Agree with most of that but I think there's atleast 5 better strikers than Vieri, not all non winners though.

 

[kps88]

I'll be picking last so not thinking too much about picks right now.

Riquelme's the big question mark for me. There's a good chance he won me some votes in this game (particularly the ones made by folks who don't take part in the discussions) and it's not every day he's going to be up against Redondo.

 

[antohan]

Agree with most of that but I think there's atleast 5 better strikers than Vieri, not all non winners though.

What options does he have?

From the remaining game: Drogba/Crespo/Aguero. feck that.
Iso: Eto'o. Silly idea.
Snow: Torres. Really?
Feeky: Ibrahimovic. I rate Vieri higher. At best not much of an upgrade to waste a pick on.
Stob: Henry/Mijatovic. He could do with Henry as a striker or left wing option. CL-tied though.
nahealai: Ruud. Non-winner, United player, hasn't got the kudos he should in these drafts. He will never hear the end of how Cristiano and Ruud won't work, Ruud yelling at him for being selfish, etc.
jakec: How would Messi work? He won't last that long so academic. Cantona leading the line? Nope.
TheGame: Shevchenko. Both have pace to burn, Vieri also has the aerial threat and physical presence. I wouldn't trade, then there's the CL factor.

Only Henry makes sense, and not necessarily to replace him.

 

[Fergus' son]

What options does he have?

From the remaining game: Drogba/Crespo/Aguero. feck that.
Iso: Eto'o. Silly idea.
Snow: Torres. Really?
Feeky: Ibrahimovic. I rate Vieri higher. At best not much of an upgrade to waste a pick on.
Stob: Henry/Mijatovic. He could do with Henry as a striker or left wing option. CL-tied though.
nahealai: Ruud. Non-winner, United player, hasn't got the kudos he should in these drafts. He will never hear the end of how Cristiano and Ruud won't work, Ruud yelling at him for being selfish, etc.
jakec: How would Messi work? He won't last that long so academic. Cantona leading the line? Nope.
TheGame: Shevchenko. Both have pace to burn, Vieri also has the aerial threat and physical presence. I wouldn't trade, then there's the CL factor.

Only Henry makes sense, and not necessarily to replace him.

Never looked into it in that much detail, just pointing out that if I saw Vieri up front by himself in the final I'd think it was a weak spot.

RVN > Vieri
Drogba > Vieri
Henry >>>> Vieri
Shev >> Vieri

Vieri may be fast but nowhere near as fast as the latter two, to say 'both have pace to burn' doesn't really address that IMO.

 

[kps88]

You're definitely underrating Vieri.

Anyway it's all trivial since I'm hoping to replace him with Crespo.

 

[antohan]

I'll be picking last so not thinking too much about picks right now.

Riquelme's the big question mark for me. There's a good chance he won me some votes in this game (particularly the ones made by folks who don't take part in the discussions) and it's not every day he's going to be up against Redondo.

He definitely is worth keeping around as a non-CL winner but you definitely need a Plan B. You were unlucky to face a strong midfield this early, but most teams are using diamonds so that will likely be the norm. As you advance the midfields will be formidable, I can't see you getting away with it beyond the next game and after this round of three picks you have no visibility of what you may come across. If you don't see someone who gives you a massive boner, you can probably pick up someone like Totti as your third pick and have a Plan B and an interesting Totti-Vieri duo going.

Upgrading Cambiasso with Redondo would go a long way in arguing you can't just be stopped by stopping Riquelme. I would prioritise that pick.

 

[Fergus' son]

You're definitely underrating Vieri.

Anyway it's all trivial since I'm hoping to replace him with Crespo.

There you go, I didn't mention Crespo as being better than him but you admitted it!

Many better strikers than Vieri, that's all I said. Crespo isn't available as of yet though...

 

[antohan]

Never looked into it in that much detail, just pointing out that if I saw Vieri up front by himself in the final I'd think it was a weak spot.

RVN > Vieri
Drogba > Vieri
Henry >>>> Vieri
Shev >> Vieri

Vieri may be fast but nowhere near as fast as the latter two, to say 'both have pace to burn' doesn't really address that IMO.

Yeah, I imagined you were thinking overall, I was bringing it down to the picking round ahead.

As I said, RvN has other legacy issues, I would take him myself but sometimes in these drafts "proven to have had problems" is the biggest nono you can put together.

Drogba is a winner and whatever your or my opinion not worth using a pick and CL-slot for. Similar situation applies with Shevchenko, who would be best suited for Riquelme's balls out of the two, no doubt, but with a phasing out of Riquelme in mind and not knowing who his or Kily's replacements may be Vieri is a more adaptable option.

Leaves you with Henry really which, as I said, I would definitely pick up if I had the chance. His latter years have taken their toll though, I couldn't believe how underrated he was when I had him last time around.

If I expand to everyone else it is only Ronaldo, Romario and Batistuta you add to the mix and the last two, as with Shevchenko, would be better choices subject to the rest of the setup.

You're definitely underrating Vieri.

Anyway it's all trivial since I'm hoping to replace him with Crespo.

You are as well then, Vieri is a better solo line leader than Crespo.

Theon won't be happy about this either

 

[kps88]

You're all mental! I was joking. Crespo would be shit in this role.

 

[antohan]

Many better strikers than Vieri, that's all I said.

There are better strikers, less so if you consider the CL-constraint, and then are they "better enough" to use a pick on? Is kps' setup clear enough to take some as better no matter how he ends up playing?

I agree with the sentiment that you want a better striker than Vieri in the final (I should know, I had Vieri and Cling had Ronaldo and Henry!), but not with kps having to be actively looking for an upgrade ASAP.

 

[antohan]

You're all mental! I was joking. Crespo would be shit in this role.

I thought you had lost your marbles for a minute there.

 

[kps88]

I thought you had lost your marbles for a minute there.

I intentionally picked the one I thought would be least suited to my team.

Anyway, like I said, I could discuss all my potential picks but the reality is most of them would be gone by the time it comes around to me.

 

[Fergus' son]

I'd say Ronaldo, Romario, Batistuta, Henry and Sheva are all better enough to atleast think about swapping (rather than being content wih Vieri all the way to the final).

Drogba, RvN, Eto'o, Ibra, and RVP are all probably around the same level as him but not worth using a pick for, probably.

Vieri in the final will be a disadvantage though, no doubt about that in my mind.

 

[kps88]

Can I have Batigol?

 

[antohan]

We are very much on the on the same page then.

It's the CL-tied ones in those five that I would think harder about because he needs that slot to materialise elsewhere. It's his other three non-CL players being questioned (Riquelme and Heinze) or likely needing an upgrade (Kily). No room for manoeuvre except through multiple moves (this is why teams had to aim for more than 4 non-CL players!!!!).

The other three are really what is firmly in scope. Batistuta, as I said in the main thread, I prefer in a pair or with other forwards he can play off. In this current setup I can't see him at his best. Same with Romario, he would be much more isolated than in akash' side. Ronaldo works anywhere

 

[NM]

Did Theon not start our game?

 

[kps88]

It's over, mate. Was a close one. You lost.

 

[Theon]

Did Theon not start our game?

No mate I was waiting for you, you said to wait until 6 in the Draft thread.

But I won't be around at 6 pm... So I'll just post it here. Be fair, and don't come up with stuff/responses until 6pm please. I'm just going to post it here.

I wasn't going to start the thread if we weren't allowed to come up with any responses. Would be a shit thread.

 

[Fergus' son]

Can I have Batigol?

I'd like to see him go to a good home if I end up exiting the tournament.

No mate I was waiting for you, you said to wait until 6 in the Draft thread.

Start it mate!

 

[antohan]

It's over, mate. Was a close one. You lost.

I wasn't going to start the thread if we weren't allowed to come up with any responses. Would be a shit thread.

I can see where NM was coming from though. I never liked playing Brwned because it took away the wham-bam element of surprising the rival manager and catching him cold with a curve ball/argument.

I'd like to see him go to a good home if I end up exiting the tournament.

You have a history with good homes, Beckenbauer, Zanetti and -had some bastard not taken him from under my nose- Vidic could attest to that

Start it mate!

Yes!!!! We are bored here refreshing the main page waiting for it to show up!

 

[Fergus' son]

I can see where NM was coming from though. I never liked playing Brwned because it took away the wham-bam element of surprising the rival manager and catching him cold with a curve ball/argument.



You have a history with good homes, Beckenbauer, Zanetti and -had some bastard not taken him from under my nose- Vidic could attest to that



Yes!!!! We are bored here refreshing the main page waiting for it to show up!

I like my players to be looked after!