Redcafe Champions League Draft Semi Final - Theon v EDogen

[Theon]

With ball vs. without ball. Basic concept. Same as with "Cafú can't attack because Giggs will take advantage".

If Robben is on the ball, Luis Enrique's support is guaranteed, he won't stand around in midfield faffing around looking after players who are not in possession!

No, he will be dragging them with him. If he is dragging De Rossi I fancy Maldini-Candela and De Rossi to kill that off. If it is Xavi you are exposed. He presses, but he is nowhere near as accomplished a defensive minded player as De Rossi and that's what Luis Enrique cries out for.



Some of the discussions on here make me wonder if people have ever watched a game of football. Forget about arguing your team's case and think about what you are saing. It's ridiculous, everyone else is seeing it as well.



He is a msifit, get over it. He is not playing to his strengths and he is not what your tactics or the opposition call for in that position.

Don't be a dick mate

In the middle bit you think is ridiculous all I am saying is that a centre mid in a midfield two playing against Xavi/Iniesta/Pirlo/Gattuso cannot keep drfiting out to right wing. It's not ridiculous at all, of course he can't keep doing that.

I take your point about with/without the ball but what happens if Enrique is out on the right and Van Persie or whoever gets tackled? Keane is just stranded in the middle by himself.

Enrique might be perfectly suited to doing what you say but this isn't the game to do it in.

 

[Gio]

Given the amount of possession Theon's team will have that will happen like 2-3 times in a half and he's got Paolo Maldini as the man guarding the 6 yard box.

It would pan out exactly like your typical Barcelona v Chelsea/Inter/United major European match.

 

[antohan]

As Theon says, I can see Pirlo-Xavi-Gattuso-Iniesta acting exactly like Alonso-Xavi-Busquets-Iniesta. That team has won 2 European and 1 World Cup. Theon's gone and added a better defense and heaps better strikeforce.

It's a perfect team really.

Gattuso was no Busquets and, crucially, Ronaldo and Shevchenko thrive in space/open games. Even if they pulled that off, dominant possession football is not the best environment for them. I fear Ronaldo may fall asleep at the tiki taka and have another France 98 shocker.

This side would work better with De Rossi there, invite a bit more pressure but be rock solid and destroy them when recovering possession because Luis Enrique is tied upfield, etc. You are largely playing one way or the other really.

 

[kps88]

Anto always argues against the side that's winning to keep it interesting for himself

 

[NM]

Gattuso was no Busquets and, crucially, Ronaldo and Shevchenko thrive in space/open games. Even if they pulled that off, dominant possession football is not the best environment for them. I fear Ronaldo may fall asleep at the tiki taka and have another France 98 shocker.

This side would work better with De Rossi there, invite a bit more pressure but be rock solid and destroy them when recovering possession because Luis Enrique is tied upfield, etc. You are largely playing one way or the other really.

Look you are making your point, but don't post utter garbage like the bit in bold.

 

[Fergus' son]

Why is Edogens midfield being described as a midfield two??

I'm probably going to vote for theon depending on how long De Rossi stays on the bench for.

 

[Fergus' son]

Look you are making your point, but don't post utter garbage like the bit in bold.

I don't think Ronaldo would enjoy playing tika taka but you're correct, the France 98 reference is utter shite, especially as he suffered a fit before the final!

 

[antohan]

I take your point about with/without the ball but what happens if Enrique is out on the right and Van Persie or whoever gets tackled? Keane is just stranded in the middle by himself.

No he isn't, he has also pushed up. You have this bizarre concept whereby all your midfielders stay in the midfield "exerting domination" without the fecking ball. If they don't have the ball they are not there, they are working hard at recovering it and if they aren't they aren't doing their job and I fear for you.

Enrique might be perfectly suited to doing what you say but this isn't the game to do it in.

He will though. As I said, this is as ridiculous as suggesting Cafú wouldn't attack at all because Giggs keeps him busy. No, Giggs is not almost offside waiting for the turnover and a long ball, he is tracking back and he is very disciplined at that which will serve EDogen well against Cafú.

Enrique attacking you can play into your hands if your defensive setup is solid, that's what ensures the ball is recovered and that he is indeed tied upfield while you start a counter. As above, I don't think there's anything wrong with you not having 70% possession, take off Xavi, lose some of the possession that affords you but on the other hand get the necessary defensive cover and create the space and the open/more back and forth game were Ronaldo and Shevchenko will tear a new arsehole into EDogen's defence.

 

[NM]

I don't think Ronaldo would enjoy playing tika taka but you're correct, the France 98 reference is utter shite, especially as he suffered a fit before the final!

I agree with the not enjoy tiki-taka. But Ronaldo can play in any team and score. He did it for so many different clubs in many different ways.. But the rest is what I was referring to (France 98 bit).

 

[crappycraperson]

As Theon says, I can see Pirlo-Xavi-Gattuso-Iniesta acting exactly like Alonso-Xavi-Busquets-Iniesta. That team has won 2 European and 1 World Cup. Theon's gone and added a better defense and heaps better strikeforce.

It's a perfect team really.

I don't think both Pirlo and Xavi are needed in the same team. One will be wasted.

 

[antohan]

Anto always argues against the side that's winning to keep it interesting for himself

I do, but I actually have a major philosophical issue here. Conceding a bit of possession and ability in possession, or benching a star player for the correct lower profile one that will set you up better can be a cracking idea. See SAF benching Rooney against Real. Had Nani not been sent off it would have been genius. On here people would be kicking and screaming Rooney should play.

 

[antohan]

Look you are making your point, but don't post utter garbage like the bit in bold.

It's obviously absurd, going t the extreme is sometimes a good way of underlining a point unless you take it all literally, obviously.

 

[Theon]

Gattuso was no Busquets and, crucially, Ronaldo and Shevchenko thrive in space/open games. Even if they pulled that off, dominant possession football is not the best environment for them. I fear Ronaldo may fall asleep at the tiki taka and have another France 98 shocker.

This side would work better with De Rossi there, invite a bit more pressure but be rock solid and destroy them when recovering possession because Luis Enrique is tied upfield, etc. You are largely playing one way or the other really.

Gattuso being no Busquets actually helps my argument, that was my whole point!

Busquets is another tika takka playmaker and occasionally even has more possession than Xavi.

That Barca side is considered the best ever, with three utter ball-players who keep possession - yet Gattuso/Pirlo/Xavi is overkill. I don't see the difference

 

[antohan]

I don't think Ronaldo would enjoy playing tika taka but you're correct, the France 98 reference is utter shite, especially as he suffered a fit before the final!

Again, I was referring to the fit, it happened in his sleep But yeah, you got the point, which was the idea.

 

[antohan]

Gattuso being no Busquets actually helps my argument, that was my whole point!

Busquets is another tika takka playmaker and occasionally even has more possession than Xavi.

That Barca side is considered the best ever, with three utter ball-players who keep possession - yet Gattuso/Pirlo/Xavi is overkill

Who was Pirlo in that Barca side then? You are mixing styles. The addition of "Barca midfielders who won everything" + "set of midfielders that could sort of look like Spain who won everything" + "awesome strikers who won every accolade under the sun" doesn't necessarily work if they thrive in different setups.

You have the perfect midfield for this game and the possibility of keeping a flawless coherent side which works like clockwork, yet you are not playing it. It's manic.

 

[Fergus' son]

Again, I was referring to the fit, it happened in his sleep But yeah, you got the point, which was the idea.

Ah, I see!

Problem I'm seeing with Theons team isn't in the attacking sense at all though, it's the defensive set up which is quite poor in comparison to what it was. Gattuso is going to have his work cut out covering for Cafu when Giggs and Evra are on that side leaving Xavi and Pirlo vs Zidane, Keane and Luis Enrique?! Thats a huge mismatch and a great danger for theons team when Edogen attacks.

Initially I didnt like Ferrera at RB in this game, but he will be a much needed help vs those strikers and I'm starting to see more of a use for LEs driving runs in the centre, Keane is almost the perfect foil for him and Zidane IMO.

Wholeheartedly agree with post 51.

 

[Polaroid]

Going by past history and current trend, it is almost like a pre-requisite for every fantasy tournament winner to have an out-of-depth fullback

 

[Red-Indian]

I don't think both Pirlo and Xavi are needed in the same team. One will be wasted.

Nah Xavi knows how to work with Alonso (he's been doing it for ages) and he'll figure out how to do it with Pirlo. There'll be lots of small interchanges in that midfield but the killer ball when it comes will come from Pirlo.

De Rossi in that team will probably make it a shade more solid but it's not really needed. Xavi does a reasonable covering job and that midfield quartet will have 70% of the ball anyway. The plus side is that unlike Spain who don't have enough of the finishing touch, Theon's side has Ronaldo and Shevchenko.

 

[NM]

Theon/Edogen, do you get to pick a player if you win?

 

[Theon]

Who was Pirlo in that Barca side then? You are mixing styles. The addition of "Barca midfielders who won everything" + "set of midfielders that could sort of look like Spain who won everything" + "awesome strikers who won every accolade under the sun" doesn't necessarily work if they thrive in different setups.

You have the perfect midfield for this game and the possibility of keeping a flawless coherent side which works like clockwork, yet you are not playing it. It's manic.

Pirlo wasn't anyone mate, that wasn't my point

My point was against the idea that you can't have that many passers in your team, especially when one of the three CM's is Gattuso

So I was using Spain/Barca as an example - When Iniesta was playing advanced (as he is here) Barca have used Busquets/Xavi/Thiago or Fabregas which is more tika takka orientated than my midfield

 

[Theon]

Theon/Edogen, do you get to pick a player if you win?

Yup

 

[Moby]

It would pan out exactly like your typical Barcelona v Chelsea/Inter/United major European match.

How so? Barca never had a Maldini or a Cafu level defender who can make it as tough as it can for any opponent in one v ones as well. They defended with possession and didn't have an answer for the counters. They do here. All 4 of Theon's defenders are better than what Pep's Barca had. Moreover in Ronaldo they have someone who can pull the trigger without having a million pass buildup. Like he did against us at OT. He needs a half chance. And he's put Nesta to the sword before in his career. The difference in those games and this is the fact that Theon has a defense that would hold it's own on the counter and I just cannot see any productive result coming from whatever doubling up Lucho and Robben are going to do against Candela if any. A player of Maldini's class and intelligence is too smart to be outsmarted by the players of the caliber of RVP and Robben. Thiago Silva has been one of the best in the world and I've seen his clear dangers for Brazil when hopeless performances from Dani Alves and Andre Santos exposed him brutally, in the company of players like Cafu and Maldini he would be more at ease and can have a good game himself.

Xavi and Iniesta at their peak behind Ronaldo can and will completely take the game away in this case more often than not. Those Inter wins were considered upsets and should not be held as a benchmark to predict what would happen when a similar outfit meets Barca in a fantasy game, and it's not completely similar anyway. Their have been plenty of instances where Barca with an inferior defense to Theon's have dispatched teams with greater direct/counter attacking threat with ease, like the Ronaldo-Rooney-Park/Tevez attack in Rome for example.

 

[Moby]

Also, people who are telling Pirlo and Xavi cannot play together, well Xavi and Alonso played well together for Spain and Pirlo's another deep lying playmaker like Alonso and Xavi's got enough in his game to change his approach and become a bit more advanced in his role and control things from higher up the pitch when he has someone of the caliber of Pirlo to dictate things from deep.

Was just putting that last point across, don't want to make it my own battle here as it is not

 

[Gio]

How so? Barca never had a Maldini or a Cafu level defender who can make it as tough as it can for any opponent in one v ones as well. They defended with possession and didn't have an answer for the counters. They do here. All 4 of Theon's defenders are better than what Pep's Barca had. Moreover in Ronaldo they have someone who can pull the trigger without having a million pass buildup. Like he did against us at OT.

Equally Barca never came up against a midfield with Keane and Zidane in it, backed up by the calibre of Nesta, Hierro and Ferrara. Both teams are stronger than a Barcelona, Chelsea or Inter, but the shape of the game would be similar - Barca/Theon have most of the ball, Chelsea/Inter/Edogen sit deep and try to hit on the counter. The questions that Edogen should be asking are - who is going to deal with Zidane? It looks like he's directly up against Pirlo, although I assume Gattuso would chip in, but that has to be an area of concern. Similarly does Theon have enough pace in his midfield to track the breaking midfield runners? Giggs, Robben and Luis Enrique are all rapid and made careers out of hitting on the break. I'm still pretty split on this one - Theon's got fantastic quality while Edogen's got the right personnel to exploit the limited weaknesses that Theon has.

 

[Theon]

My team has been criticised/analysed a lot more than EDogens, so far very little has been said of his team.

I agree with Gio that he will be heavily reliant on the counter, for two main reasons

1) The possession dominance of my team will lend itself to them dropping off, I can see exactly where Gio is coming from in the Barca/Inter comparisons

2) It would be the best way to combat and limit Ronaldo's influence. If EDogen pushed up and tried to press high up the pitch then that is exactly what Ronaldo wants, he would skip around Hierro as if he wasn't there (not that Hierro wasn't a great defender, he was, but he was never quick)

 

[Fergus' son]

Lots of discussion about the teams individually but no one has really mentioned how they envisage thier goals to be scored, aside from a brief mention of Enrique and Robben attacking Candela.

Gio raises a good point, of all the attacking players on the pitch I see Zidane having the most joy, as he is up against Pirlo and perhaps Gattuso, the latter who will be heavily required to cover Cafu.

 

[Theon]

Lots of discussion about the teams individually but no one has really mentioned how they envisage thier goals to be scored, aside from a brief mention of Enrique and Robben attacking Candela.

Gio raises a good point, of all the attacking players on the pitch I see Zidane having the most joy, as he is up against Pirlo and perhaps Gattuso, the latter who will be heavily required to cover Cafu.

Who is Iniesta up against?

On who will score the goals I fancy Ronaldo and Shevchenko to cause that backline far more problems than Van Persie will.

Ronaldo can score a goal all by himself, let alone with Xavi/Iniesta and Pirlo supplying him.


Ronaldo of 1996-1998 is arguably the greatest striker since Pele and he is linking up with Xavi

 

[Moby]

Equally Barca never came up against a midfield with Keane and Zidane in it, backed up by the calibre of Nesta, Hierro and Ferrara. Both teams are stronger than a Barcelona, Chelsea or Inter, but the shape of the game would be similar - Barca/Theon have most of the ball, Chelsea/Inter/Edogen sit deep and try to hit on the counter. The questions that Edogen should be asking are - who is going to deal with Zidane? It looks like he's directly up against Pirlo, although I assume Gattuso would chip in, but that has to be an area of concern. Similarly does Theon have enough pace in his midfield to track the breaking midfield runners? Giggs, Robben and Luis Enrique are all rapid and made careers out of hitting on the break. I'm still pretty split on this one - Theon's got fantastic quality while Edogen's got the right personnel to exploit the limited weaknesses that Theon has.

Again the question of dealing with Zidane comes into the picture after he is on the ball for enough amount of time to orchestrate dangerous moves. Playing on the counter isn't gonna do that. Top playmakers in the world like Ozil have been starved because of Barca's relentless possession play, not saying Zidane's the same as Ozil obviously but the point is that your great playmaker needs to have the ball to do anything, and there's not gonna be enough in this.

Which is why the counter attacking components that is the wide players would be more crucial than Zidane here. Obviously Zidane would be starting most of those counters but that is hardly the best he's capable of, he's capable of much more given the time and space on the ball which he isn't getting at all here. And the wide players and the forward who need to end those counters are facing a good enough defense that can deal with it. Maldini's gonna pocket RVP in all fairness, and unless you consider an extra ordinary circumstance where Robin punishes every inch of space left by the defenders which he doesn't have the record of doing against such names, you really can't see them outscoring Theon here. With the amount of possession he will have and with Sheva and Ronaldo getting at the end of it, with that extra directness that even Messi never really provided that is a goal treasure right there. As good as Hierro and Nesta are, they can't handle that. As I said Ronaldo's punished Nesta in Serie A, so it's not a hypothetical situation like RVP owning Maldini which is times more unlikely. Players at their best - Theon's got this.

 

[antohan]

Going by past history and current trend, it is almost like a pre-requisite for every fantasy tournament winner to have an out-of-depth fullback

With Maldini at LCB and De Rossi's protection I can't think of more accomplished players than Candela to act as LB-cum-WB. It is the removal of protection where I see him having to be a lot more cautious and as a pure defensive option he is not top tier indeed.

 

[antohan]

Pirlo wasn't anyone mate, that wasn't my point

My point was against the idea that you can't have that many passers in your team, especially when one of the three CM's is Gattuso

So I was using Spain/Barca as an example - When Iniesta was playing advanced (as he is here) Barca have used Busquets/Xavi/Thiago or Fabregas which is more tika takka orientated than my midfield

The problem is not the excess of passing but comparative lack of real bite. Only Gattuso offers you that right now. In the latter stages of this it isn't enough IMO. It's not just about bodies in midfield. I reckon Fergus articulated it better earlier on.

 

[antohan]

Also, people who are telling Pirlo and Xavi cannot play together, well Xavi and Alonso played well together for Spain and Pirlo's another deep lying playmaker like Alonso and Xavi's got enough in his game to change his approach and become a bit more advanced in his role and control things from higher up the pitch when he has someone of the caliber of Pirlo to dictate things from deep.

Was just putting that last point across, don't want to make it my own battle here as it is not

No one is saying they can't play together, he is just sacrificing something far more important though: defensive solidity.

 

[antohan]

Theon's got fantastic quality while Edogen's got the right personnel to exploit the limited weaknesses that Theon has.

Exactly, and de Rossi goes a long way to putting paid to that.

 

[Moby]

No one is saying they can't play together, he is just sacrificing something far more important though: defensive solidity.

Yeah I get your point that when he loses the ball he would be a lot better with De Rossi chasing to win it back than Xavi, but then I see his defense and Ed's attack and I think they should be fine without that extra support from midfield. Xavi was a hard worker anyway so he'd be doing his fair share of running even if it is not at the calibre of De Rossi. From where I'm looking at Ed's defense is in a lot more trouble when Theon's got the ball than Theon's is. And there is no doubt that Theon's gonna have like 60-70% possession. The amount of damage that'll be done with that much time on the ball would certainly be more than the damage he conceded because of the absense of DDR.

 

[Gio]

Again the question of dealing with Zidane comes into the picture after he is on the ball for enough amount of time to orchestrate dangerous moves. Playing on the counter isn't gonna do that. Top playmakers in the world like Ozil have been starved because of Barca's relentless possession play, not saying Zidane's the same as Ozil obviously but the point is that your great playmaker needs to have the ball to do anything, and there's not gonna be enough in this.

They also need space. On the rare occasion Edogen does have a counter, he's going to get a lot more of it to hit than what Theon will have to work with if Edogen stays compact and deep. Otherwise agree about the player v player argument, particularly in terms of the respective strikeforces. Surprised Theon's not put this video up yet...

 

[antohan]

Yeah I get your point that when he loses the ball he would be a lot better with De Rossi chasing to win it back than Xavi, but then I see his defense and Ed's attack and I think they should be fine without that extra support from midfield. Xavi was a hard worker anyway so he'd be doing his fair share of running even if it is not at the calibre of De Rossi. From where I'm looking at Ed's defense is in a lot more trouble when Theon's got the ball than Theon's is. And there is no doubt that Theon's gonna have like 60-70% possession. The amount of damage that'll be done with that much time on the ball would certainly be more than the damage he conceded because of the absense of DDR.

It's still coin toss material, while I reckon shutting that flank frees up Candela more, keeps Luis Enrique under much better detail and by making it more of an open game plays to Ronaldo and Shevchenko's strengths. I think it is the difference between 60-40/70-30 and 90-10. Huge.

 

[Theon]

With Maldini at LCB and De Rossi's protection I can't think of more accomplished players than Candela to act as LB-cum-WB. It is the removal of protection where I see him having to be a lot more cautious and as a pure defensive option he is not top tier indeed.

I agree with you, but if I manage to get through this I think I'm going to have to get a CB and move Maldini to left back

Candela is getting slaughtered by the voters for some reason

 

[Moby]

It's still coin toss material, while I reckon shutting that flank frees up Candela more, keeps Luis Enrique under much better detail and by making it more of an open game plays to Ronaldo and Shevchenko's strengths. I think it is the difference between 60-40/70-30 and 90-10. Huge.

C'mon man you can't really give that a 50-50 to say it's a coin toss. In a choice where you can have De Rossi's extra defensive ability to shore up a flank against the unmatched chemistry between Xavi and Iniesta which 95% of the time has left the other team with no answers against their passing and movement I'd honestly go for the latter specially given Ed's attack. If I were facing player of the quality of Ronaldo or Messi or say even Batigol/Romario etc I'd understand it being way too risky to go for the kill and murder them with possession but it's not the case here. Robben and RVP don't pose the amount of risk which would cause Theon a concern that amounts as far as to him losing the game.

 

[antohan]

I agree with you, but if I manage to get through this I think I'm going to have to get a CB and move Maldini to left back

Candela is getting slaughtered by the voters for some reason

I haven't seen that much damning criticism of Candela TBH and the scoreline does not indicate that either. Maybe a couple of votes or so.

Candela is non-CL, you have to keep him, no choice whatsoever there. You just have to play De Rossi protecting the flank. You are fixing the wrong problem.

 

[antohan]

C'mon man you can't really give that a 50-50 to say it's a coin toss. In a choice where you can have De Rossi's extra defensive ability to shore up a flank against the unmatched chemistry between Xavi and Iniesta which 95% of the time has left the other team with no answers against their passing and movement I'd honestly go for the latter specially given Ed's attack. If I were facing player of the quality of Ronaldo or Messi or say even Batigol/Romario etc I'd understand it being way too risky to go for the kill and murder them with possession but it's not the case here. Robben and RVP don't pose the amount of risk which would cause Theon a concern that amounts as far as to him losing the game.

I come from a country used to having far less skillful players yet boasting the most South American titles. How is that achieved? Don't concede. If you don't concede you can't lose. It has worked from the beginning of time but it is also a recent thing: Chelsea 12, Inter 10, United 08?... Every other year recently we have had immense defences winning the CL.

Not as sexy as Xavi, but incredibly effective, particularly when you don't have to turn into a bore like Greece 2004 as there's still Pirlo pulling string, the wingbacks freed up to torment the opposition from wide areas, Iniesta providing the flair behind the strikers, and what strikers.

It's really not difficult!

 

[Moby]

I come from a country used to having far less skillful players yet boasting the most South American titles. How is that achieved? Don't concede. If you don't concede you can't lose. It has worked from the beginning of time but it is also a recent thing: Chelsea 12, Inter 10, United 08?... Every other year recently we have had immense defences winning the CL.

Not as sexy as Xavi, but incredibly effective, particularly when you don't have to turn into a bore like Greece 2004 as there's still Pirlo pulling string, the wingbacks freed up to torment the opposition from wide areas, Iniesta providing the flair behind the strikers, and what strikers.

It's really not difficult!

Firstly this is a fantasy scenario and so team to team it is almost impossible to liken it to anything that has happened in the history of the game, very few if possible.

I can't really generalize that. And I never really said Theon's team or a team with fancy skillful players is always invincible. Of course Theon's team can be beaten by ED's team on their day just like Barca has had those notable nights in Europe. But should we consider that odd chance here? It is clear to me at least that if these two teams play 10 times Theon will win at least 7, if not more. It is not up for debate as far as I'm concerned that Xavi and Iniesta will murder them in possession and with that attack the damage that will be done would be more than the other side. We are talking about one of the greatest defenders of all time in Maldini dealing with someone who would take some debate to be called the best striker of his generation and there is where almost of all Ed's goal threat lies. At the end of the day after considering the possibility of Candela brutally raped by Robben which in itself is not a surety as it is being portrayed, there's just not enough goal in there. While on the other side I just cannot see that attack being stopped. The reason Ronaldo is hailed so highly, well at least one of the big reasons, is that he has punished the world's best defenders time and time again in his career whether it was Thuram, Cannavaro or Nesta. He's not feeling out of place here at all while Robin has never at least in my memory faced anyone of the quality of Paolo.