Yep, i feel he's being underrated here. Certainly comparable to Evra in terms of quality - I recall that there wwere serious suggestions that he could take Lizarazu's place in the French team at one stage.
Redcafe Champions League Draft Semi Final - Theon v EDogen
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
Yeah I'd take Candela over Evra to be honest.
Candela was a solid performer. Don't think he'd be out of place at this level. Comfortable with the role that's being asked of him in this side. He'll be fine
Why are some saying keep Pirlo on take Xavi off, I would have it the other way round. Xavi at his peak was much more mobile and clocked up so many yards during a game due to that immense stamina of his. Pirlo may be better at making something out of nothing but Xavi is one of the best passers I have ever seen. He made the game easier for teammates by always making himself available for a pass and with Iniesta they will boss any midfield they come up against. As good as Pirlo is he needs the two players doing the dog work for him to really shine. I would rather Xavi personally.
p.s When would you guys says Pirlo's peak was?
p.s When would you guys says Pirlo's peak was?
I said 60-40/70-30, which is roughly what you are saying. The point was De Rossi would then make it ~19-1 just to contemplate random luck.
You still have Ronaldo, you still have Maldini on RvP, you still have everything sorted. You just lose Xavi for a far more disciplined and defensively sound player on the flank where you are weakest. In that scenario I can't see Edogen scoring for toffee, not at all. As it stands he can and could nick it.
Why Pirlo over Xavi Anto ????
France's setup was more suited to Lizarazu but he was right there behind him and in this setup I probably fancy him more because Theon needs that projection and that's where Candela would be most comfortable.
That's rubbish really. Changing the rules this late. Then again I think that cherry picking from the losers is a rubbish rule as well. Kind of negates what's supposed to be the biggest deal, constructing a team with limits to begin with.
It's nothing to do with Pirlo > Xavi.
I like the double DM option for that diamond. A side being narrow or not is a function of how the "wider" players in that diamond operate. If they are more central the whole concept falls apart. You need players who will put themselves about all over that space and support/protect the fullbacks properly. Gattusso and De Rossi are players who will do exactly that.
Just to move away from Xavi, do you see Carrick working well there? I don't. I rate Carrick, he would be a complete misfit though. To a great extent I see that being the case with Xavi. However much I rate his workrate and defensive contribution it is not the sort needed here. Could he adapt to a role like that? Maybe, but he never performed it, which has to be a huge concern.
It makes me see that diamond as completely lop-sided and lacking on the left flank and, by extension, screwing up Candela's contribution going forward because he will have to be infinitely more mindful of his defensive duties. Crap way to use Candela that. It is by no means something I would class as a glaring weakness/major flaw that will cost Theon the game. It's just a completely unnecessary weak spot that could cost him. It's just fundamentally flawed.
In fairness, Theon had cocked things up editing rules and not telling anyone so EDogen was a bit miffed he mde some decision based on the wrong rules. It was indeed spectacularly unfair on everyone else to change the rules halfway through but what I'm referring to here is Theon has given EDogen leeway to play according to the "inserted and deleted" rules he had followed. That is quite sporting of him. Going forward though both teams revert back to the original rules.
There are cons to that switch as well. I don't think the possession control would be as strong as it is now. In fact that Milan side under Carlo played on counter a lot and I don't remember them dominating a team in possession high up the pitch so if you make that switch you are mainly inviting Edogen to attack and allowing more time to the likes of Zidane and Giggs which is also a direct consequence of having lesser control of possession and then expecting the two DMs and the defense to do the job, which they probably can.
It makes for a completely different tactic and approach and I see both having plus and minus to them, it's just that which one you prefer and feel more comfortable with. You probably feel that having two DMs and absorbing all their attacks and the Pirlo lobbing one up or probably Iniesta pulling off something in the final third is easier, in simple words you want the approach to be stop them first then attack while I feel more comfortable in the team having a setup which will without a doubt allow them tremendous control of possession, a tactic which has proven to be extremely effective for Barca and Spain defensively by not allowing the opposition any time on the ball hence lesser and lesser chance of them coming closer to scoring. With that type of time on the ball and quality of players like Iniesta, Xavi and Pirlo spread all across the pitch, you can easily see Ronaldo and Sheva scoring enough to give the team the win even if you contemplate an off counter coming off against Candela due to De Rossi not on the pitch.
Also, this tactic allows Iniesta a lot more freedom and he can drift wide to provide width when needed with ease as there will be Xavi taking the central attacking position and interplay, as we well know, would take course and create loads of chances than Iniesta all alone as the main skillful ball player in the middle with a huge burden of creating most of the chances by himself.
At the end of the day two different tactics and both point towards a Theon win IMO. Just that I feel a lot more safe with dominating the possession when I have the chance to do so with a pair who have displayed that quality beyond the extra-ordinary.
I think it's the best part of the game. It definitely removes some of the skill and luck plays a huge part, which is what happened with EDogen, but it's still the most fun
Before I signed up I read the 60's one and the building of the team/upgrades was the most interesting part IMO
I agree with you that it's not as skillful and takes away from the main part though, but it makes the teams better and puts the best players of the era on show. If it was just the teams at the beginning so many great players wouldnt be in the final and semis and the teams wouldnt be anywhere near as good.
A discussion for another day but if we continue with the secondary reinforcement draft with the order as reverse, it makes it quite easy for a team which was lower in the order initially but drafted well enough to qualify one stage and got first dibs on every player that was knocked out. You can see how Fergus benefited here by having the chance to get Messi which made his attack almost unstoppable while kps who had done as well while drafting but had to wait one full round in the secondary draft went out and so on. Honestly I'd rather be in the lower half of the initial draft with this rule. Antohan in the all time draft is another example, lower in the order, calculated well and banked on winning the first game to get to the secondary draft, got beckenbauer and the midfield was virtually invincible with Rijkaard already there.
I don't think I have a better idea in mind right now just that I find a visible advantage for a well drafted lower order team against a well drafted top order team with this rule.
Yeah definitely agree
Kps is a great example because his initial picks were probably the best out of everyone in the draft, he was going brilliantly - he did still get Redondo but I agree with you
The problem here which made what you talk about worse is that there was such a small supply of top non cl winners.
So one of De Rossi/Gattuso plays on the flank and Pirlo operates from deep? Makes sense, how about Gattusso as the deepest player and Xavi/De Rossi on the flanks. At his peak Xavi got around the midfield area as well as anyone, he picked his moments going forward but he dominated the midfield area.
There are a few reasons I would always go Pirlo over Xavi in this set up
1) He has played in that system his whole career - Xavi could definitely play next to Gattuso with De Rossi holding, but it isn't as proven a system
2) Moving Xavi to one of the CM spots, and De Rossi to the DM spot - This wouldn't work as well defensively, because Anto is right that the biggest requirement of the two side CM's is that they can press, move, tackle out wide. They're often called the 'shuttlers' IIRC and the idea isn't that they dictate the play from out there, but press and win possession
3) His passing is more suited than Xavi's - In the diamond I imagine Pirlo as a quarter back type player, pinging balls 20-30 yards left and right, down to the wingbacks or fizzing it through the middle. With Xavi he is much more about making lot's of shorter, quick tika takka passes which doesn't fit as well. It's fine here because Pirlo is there too and EDogen needs to drop deep, but if he was the only ball player in that midfield it wouldn't work as well as if Pirlo was the only ballplayer
This may be a wrong opinion of Xavi, but I see him more as needing other great passers to link up with than Pirlo. Whereas Pirlo can just ping 40 yard passes to whoever, Xavi is more about short, quick interchanges which requires other good footballers to succeed
I thought about that thinking about Zidane specifically, it still leaves one of the two flanks a bit fecked. As you know, Gattuso didn't do that holding role either, what made him immense was precisely that he wasn't constrained to a deep central Makelele role but that he virtually single-handedly owned an entire side of the pitch where sweet feck all could be generated. Double that either side, unleash the fullbacks, DLP pulling strings, and advanced playmaker in Iniesta, what is there not to like?
BTW, Aldo, read your points and I agree it is down to preferences. I reckon this side with De Rossi would destroy Barca though, however effective tiki taka was as a defensive ploy. Indeed, you can't score without the ball, but in the 30% possession (I'd argue 40%) Ronaldo and Shevchenko would piss all over Barca's defence far more.
Much like Thiago and Fabregas were meant to take over from Xavi, Xavi was supposed t take over from Guardiola. Guardiola is precisely what you describe Pirlo as, it never worked with Xavi, he is not Guardiola, nor Pirlo.
It isn't, it's spot on, he has a good long pass on him but thrives in the constant short passes and triangles that tiki taka is all about. That's my point about him being a misfit. He will link up well with Iniesta but you don't have what Barca and Spain had which is several players to do that back and forth with. If you limit it to the Xavi - Iniesta combination it's easier to mark out of the game than if you have 3-4 players who keep you chasing the ball like a monkey (we call that "monito", the game where you keep passing and some numpty runs around like an idiot trying to intercept).
Is there a term you know for the CM's in a diamond? I remember reading an article on Gattuso and it gave him a term than sounded South American, which is for the CM's in a diamond/narrow system
I know I'm in a minority in thinking this. When it was proposed at the time I think it was only me and maybe 2 others that didn't like it.
I am a big muppet which is why I like watching the upgrades, even though these teams are all amazing I'd love to have Roberto Carlos with Cafu for example
It's a bit of a muppets game after all.I am a big muppet which is why I like watching the upgrades, even though these teams are all amazing I'd love to have Roberto Carlos with Cafu for example
No idea, diamonds aren't exactly my favourite formation, remember?
Is there a term you know for the CM's in a diamond? I remember reading an article on Gattuso and it gave him a term than sounded South American, which is for the CM's in a diamond/narrow system
Maybe you read "cabeca de bagre"? Which is <uglyfish>head, a Brazilian terms for pure defensive midfielders. In 2002 every pundit under the sun complained about playing Gilberto, Edmilson and some other chap that got injured making way for Kleberson. Oh, yes, Emerson! "You can win nothing with three bagreheads in midfield! They offer nothing!". They kept things tidy though, that they sure did.
I have not had the chance to be here and now I just arrived at work so will not be so active today either. Looks like this one is running away from me.
Voted EDogen. I don't get Theon not even trying the De Rossi option to at least gage what impact/damage it makes to remove Xavi vote-wise.
Come the final he HAS to start, but there he is all miffed watching from the bench how Robben and Lucho give his team unnecessary grief. Players having confidence in their manager is an important factor, at least in real life.
Poor man management and poor management overall not to try out an alternative setup which may be a requirement in the next game.
Come the final he HAS to start, but there he is all miffed watching from the bench how Robben and Lucho give his team unnecessary grief. Players having confidence in their manager is an important factor, at least in real life.
Poor man management and poor management overall not to try out an alternative setup which may be a requirement in the next game.
Or maybe he just disagreed with you and thought having Xavi_Iniesta would be ok? Of course, you know exactly how De Rossi will think? I know this is a game, but some of the stuff you have said is border-line ridiculous AND I want Theon to lose coz he beat me!
I can't speak for Edogen but he does have much more defensive solidity in his team and I can see him neutralising Iniesta a lot more than Pirlo will Zidane.
Yeah, the Ronaldo factor is definitely huge, which is why I'm voting for a draw because I see both he and Zidane getting joy in this game. Had De Rossi started I would've picked you...
Back again looking at the score, congrats Theon! You have an amazing team for sure.
I have enjoyed this draft as always, mainly the first drafting process which is my favourite part by miles in this stuff. As talked about in this thread I agree on that luck plays its part on everything after the first drafting is done. But it also makes it fun as you say.
Also thanks to all the voters showing up in all games.
I have enjoyed this draft as always, mainly the first drafting process which is my favourite part by miles in this stuff. As talked about in this thread I agree on that luck plays its part on everything after the first drafting is done. But it also makes it fun as you say.
Also thanks to all the voters showing up in all games.
De Rossi should've started. It was theon that convinced everyone how perfect he and Gatusso were for his diamond so to change it didn't make sense to me, Xavi was a square peg in a round hole when it wasn't necessary.
It worked for him but it's fine for Anto to offer his opinion, don't think he's being out of order with that one personally.
Theons team is just ridiculous, gets my vote.
Why do you want him to lose because he beat you? Surely you want to say you lost to the eventual winner?
Anyhow, I'm just adding colour FFS. This is fecking boring without colour, just look at the only game I wasn't around lately, Fergus was mystified and kept bumping it because there was no discussion going. If the way to bump it is saying De Rossi is upset and getting some banter going about that then so be it.
Christ, some of you take stuff far too seriously.
RE: him disagreeing, I accept he can. I still think it is poor from a strategic standpoint not to test how sensitive the voters are to Xavi leaving the pitch. Theon has to pick Nesta, clearly, which implies he needs another non-CL winner on the pitch to replace Thiago. That would have to be De Rossi for Xavi, not testing how people would receive that in a game that is done and dusted is a mistake IMO. Now he will just have to go to the final and find out there.
He can't really take Nesta because I thought we are going back to the 4 non winners for the final? Unless Aguero comes in for Shev aswell as De Rossi for Xavi?
Honestly, I would take Keane. A Keane, De Rossi, Gattuso - Iniesta diamond would be amazing.
EDIT: Mean Pirlo, Not Gattuso.
EDIT: Mean Pirlo, Not Gattuso.
I liked your team man and would love to have seen them in a real game. Glad to see you ended up using Lucho exactly how he should be used
My main criticism of it would be RvP. Saying he is out of his depth would be harsh, but he is trying to punch above his weight here.Yes, luck plays a part, had you got TITO instead of Theon it would have been you with Ronaldo upfront
That said, there's a degree of making your own luck here and that takes you back to the drafting. You have to get a balance between building a strong core and a solid side that will keep you going but futureproof your side for upgrades. Theon did that very well too.You also did to a great extent (as said, not getting Ronaldo is -huge- pot luck) but you had threads (Evra-Giggs, Nesta-Ferrara, Hierro-Lucho and the flexibility that afforded) rather than the awesome score he picked straight off the bat in Pirlo-Gattuso-De Rossi and Iniesta. Then he got a simialr "thread" to yours in the right fullback pair and sorted defence/striker along the way, which was bound to be the easiest to sort out with further picks.
I thought he dropped a bollock picking Xavi and not planning for eventually meeting you and picking Nesta, told him that and that's how the whole three non-CL issue came up. He picked Xavi assuming that was on (i.e. hadn't dropped the bollock I thought, just the comms one). I'm saying this because despite all the discussions you guys have had elsewhere, and whatever you have decided, I do know he picked Xavi instead of Toldo counting on that. Don't want to reopen a can of worms, but so long as he doesn't play Xavi I think it is fair to say he wouldn't be taking any advantage by having Neuer instead of Toldo and playing under a 3 non-CL rule.
Read above.
I PMd him the moment he picked him telling him he was bonkers and not future-proofing his side. He said he would have picked Buffon if still available and considered taking Toldo but it would be 3 non-CL from the semis anyway. I said that was not clear at all and he should flag it. He thought flagging it would make him look bad as he would benefit so he opted to go delete the new rule without telling anyone (i.e. took it on the chin although having picked Xavi was screwing him then).
I honestly think that so long as he doesn't play Xavi it would be fair cop to make it 3 non-CL. With EDogen I had nothing to go on, but here I know for a fact his only advantage would be Xavi and, if he removes it, there's nothing to it.
This is mental, remove the one chap who was world class at that role playing it alongside Pirlo in a team setup like Theon's to play a 4-4-2 master of the box-to-box in an alien formation. Are you serious?
I'm easy but something has to be decided, saying 3 non CLs as long as you don't play Xavi is a bit absurd IMO.
Not that I'm still in it to have any say but I reckon the rule was relaxed mainly for Ed who had made his team with that in mind, now that he's out it should probably be reverted to 4 non CLs.
It has been decided, we had PM conversations about it and it was posted in the thread when I dropped out. You're just opening up the issue again.
Anyway these threads are for discussing tactics and players, so you can PM me if you want to talk about it in more detail
Cheers man, shame you weren't around because I think it would have been a lot closer
Yup agree on the luck part of the secondary drafts, both picking from a player and the reverse drafting order that Aldo was talking about.
The extra picks are still the most fun part for me and make the final a showcase for the best players of the era, so they should stay in for the next one IMO - but we might need to think of a better way. Conversation for another day though