People seem to be criticising my defence yet I believe Luis Enrique and Ferrara are playing out of their natural positions whereas I have a balanced team. What has Hierro got over de Boer exactly because I'm struggling to find anything. Edogen has great wingers but lets not forget Reuter was deployed in the 1990 World Cup final where he had to keep the likes of Maradona at bay. Ze Roberto and Evra are similar players. My midfield has the right attacking and defensive balance, I have a greater playmaker and striker. Lopez and Ze Roberto will give several problems to Ferrara and likewise Pires cutting in with Reuter gong forward on the opposite flank. I feel this team has a great balance and would be good defensively as well.
RedCafe Champions League Draft - TheGame v EDogen
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
Errr... maybe I have to be uber elaborate and spell out my points? I did close my first post saying precisely that, that his main hope was Zidane's moments of magic but I didn't think they would be enough.
Deco's workrate is significantly higher than Zidane's. From the perspective of imposing yourself in midfield and exerting control EDogen is better placed. As said, not as creative as TheGame, but he has great options down the flanks so that is not a major concern. I can't see TheGame preferring EDogen's three in his side, his three (Zidane in particular) are his only fighting chance, but there's a coherence in Edogen's three that makes them a great -and better- fit for his side.
No need to bookmark it my one regret in the All-time draft was never getting hold of him. And I had Pelé FFS!
FWIW, I agree he got a hat trick vs. "The All-In" and if he gets presented with Pique-Ramos it will be absolute carnage
I was going to elaborate on how well Cocu knits together a midfield as a fantastic all-rounder. But Edogen has Deco performing a similar role in a midfield that's well designed to combat the nice possession that Zidane, Cocu and Seedorf will command. Perhaps the midfielder I'm least convinced about in that central six is Seedorf who is not grizzly enough to do what the top destroyers do, nor creative enough to offer what the best playmakers can, despite his various talents and impressive CV.
Have to disagree with you re Seedorf, quality talent who can break up play and then start moves, think he's an ideal fit for the team. Not sure re Deco, think Cocu has a higher work rate, can't really remember him being a high work rate player. Certainly no better than Zidane who's work rate was underrated.
They are as much out of their "natural" positions as many of yours. Zé Roberto is more a wingback than a fullback (if not a midfielder), López more a forward than a winger, but I certainly buy those two on the basis López will indeed be further forward because so will Roberto... leaving de Boer badly exposed.
Cocu and Seedorf in a two don't quite look right to me at all, yet I'm not picking on that either. Both Luis Enrique and Ferrara did and could play in the positions assigned. There's absolutely nothing in that line of argument.
Sure, you can argue Ferrara won't contribute much going forward, that is spot on, but defensively he will do a reasonable job. López doesn't require a top drawer specialist fullback the way someone like Giggs does. I do rate López very highly, but he won't hug the line and stretch the defence the way a specialist winger would.
I do rate Hierro higher, but not in this game the way it is laid out. de Boer is more exposed by the fullback, that's the problem here.
He is your standout defender and the reason I'm not banging on about how Giggs will win this game. If I had to pick a back four out of both sides it would be Evra-Nesta-Ferrara-Reuter. When facing Giggs you ideally want one of Zanetti or Thuram, Reuter would be in the tier immediately after those two, but not too far behind.
"Perhaps"
As I said, your best chance for openings comes from Zé Roberto pulling Ferrara away and playing López on in between him and Hierro. You don't have any aerial presence though, so I would expect players as experienced as Ferrara and Hierro not to go along with that and stay tight even if it means giving Zé Roberto crossing opportunities. As soon as they get it back, Hierro can play it up to Robben and at pace one-on-one vs. de Boer it won't be pretty.
I got the same stick over Seedorf in the 70s draft and the more I thought about it the more I ended up concluding people were right that he was best suited to a midfield with others taking on the main defensive duties (e.g. Gattuso and Pirlo, in a three). For the Netherlands you usually had Cocu, Seedorf... and Davids! So I opted for following people's advice and took Davids on board... and got mullered for it. Go figure
Ze Roberto is very attacking but he played in that position for Leverkusen and did his defensive duties really well. The same argument with Lopez tracking back can be used with Robben. With Ferrara not exactly bombing forward, I feel Ze Roberto could handle Robben. I'm still adamant Cocu and Seedorf are a better pairing, Cocu good defensively while Seedorf linking up the attack. Cocu also able to cover in the flanks if needed.
I take your point on Lopez however he will be cutting in as well as going out wide, providing that goal scoring threat inside. I think you can add Cafu to that right back list with perhaps Neville as well.
I take your point regarding aerial presence however Shevchenko wasn't that bad n the air. You make it sound too easy, my team will have that defensive cover with Cocu so it won't be that simple.
I take your point on Lopez however he will be cutting in as well as going out wide, providing that goal scoring threat inside. I think you can add Cafu to that right back list with perhaps Neville as well.
I take your point regarding aerial presence however Shevchenko wasn't that bad n the air. You make it sound too easy, my team will have that defensive cover with Cocu so it won't be that simple.
I feel he is underrated considering his career.I got the same stick over Seedorf in the 70s draft and the more I thought about it the more I ended up concluding people were right that he was best suited to a midfield with others taking on the main defensive duties (e.g. Gattuso and Pirlo, in a three). For the Netherlands you usually had Cocu, Seedorf... and Davids! So I opted for following people's advice and took Davids on board... and got mullered for it. Go figure
He was a wingback there, they played three at the back, or actually two + Ramelow dropping into defence when the wingbacks went forward. You aren't doing either, so not comparable.
Indeed, none of the wingers will track back bar Giggs, but you seem to arrive at the wrong conclusion when you say it means Zé can handle Robben.
You will be able to double up on Ferrara, while EDogen will always have Robben flying solo. It's a very dangerous proposition if Ferrara gets pulled out wide on Roberto and leaves López onto Hierro. I just don't think he will. He will realise the greater threat comes from being pulled wide, not from crosses with no formidable target.
That said, Roberto is not getting any support to handle Robben AND is the defensively weakest player AND is regularly going to get caught upfield, which makes Robben as -if not more- likely to get a breakthrough as you are on that flank.
I have a lot of time for Cocu, he is always on my shortlists and I never seem to get hold of him. I had actually suggested to akash to go for Cocu or Petit, but likely Petit as Cocu would be gone before his turn... and then you took him. If you look at the examples above, Seedorf in midfield has been used effectively alongside Davids and Cocu and Gattuso and Pirlo. Cocu is himself/Pirlo, but you are missing the Davids/Gattuso.
For a defensive job on Giggs I'd stick with Reuter. If we are talking fullbacks overall then Cafu obviously belongs in the top tier as much as if not more than Thuram. Zanetti is the standout all-rounder.
No, it isn't that simple and it's not like they will score five goals that way. I'm just pointing out how attemtping to exploit Edogen's "weakest link" could very easily leave you as badly exposed on that same flank.
Mate, you are a good sport, I hope you are not pissed off at me going into so much detail. I intended to make that one initial post to begin with but once I start being questioned on X, Y or Z I start replying and it's almost as if I've turned into the rival manager...
I usually only comment early if I think there is constructive feedback/changes that can be made and leave the vote for later. I just had a busy day ahead and genuinely thought this wasn't a contest and there was very little you can realistically do about it. Shame, because you did make your side fall together better than I expected. I've had Zidane before, awesome eyecandy but a bitch to navigate around. Every time I say this people laugh their arse off, yet those who have had Zidane agree!
Haha mate don't worry about it, enjoy some constructive criticism and your talking some sense . I know Ze Roberto would be a risk at the LB spot but I knew he played games in that position as well as a LWB. I had the same argument with Cocu playing at CB and using him as a WB. I feel Seedorf can play as a 2 and has done at the various clubs he has been at but we'll agree to disagree on that one
No probs mate, thought I could pull it back but it seems to be getting away from me at the moment and Di Livio really won't make much difference if brought on. Its been my first draft though so very enjoyable and great experience. I'm still hoping to get as many votes as possible though.
. I know Ze Roberto would be a risk at the LB spot but I knew he played games in that position as well as a LWB. I had the same argument with Cocu playing at CB and using him as a WB. I feel Seedorf can play as a 2 and has done at the various clubs he has been at but we'll agree to disagree on that oneNo probs mate, thought I could pull it back but it seems to be getting away from me at the moment and Di Livio really won't make much difference if brought on. Its been my first draft though so very enjoyable and great experience. I'm still hoping to get as many votes as possible though.
I don't think theres any chance of Ze Roberto containing Robben. You have to be a brilliant defender to keep Robben quiet, inparticular stopping him from coming inside and shooting on his left. I'd only fancy a couple of players in the whole draft at possibly stopping him. Robben will do more damage than Giggs in this one who'll have a pretty good duel with Reuter.
Did Pires play much on the right? I recall him playing his best football with Arsenal when on the left.
Did Pires play much on the right? I recall him playing his best football with Arsenal when on the left.
I'm sure he played there for Arsenal on some occasions as well as France.
Your probably right. I just remember Ljungberg on the right for Arsenal and Wiltord for France. I thought Pires was much stronger coming inside on his strong side.
The important think is to reflect on the draft and what you could have done better, not just now but as you see this progress.Haha mate don't worry about it, enjoy some constructive criticism and your talking some sense
No probs mate, thought I could pull it back but it seems to be getting away from me at the moment and Di Livio really won't make much difference if brought on. Its been my first draft though so very enjoyable and great experience. I'm still hoping to get as many votes as possible though.
Di Livio was a great pick that late on, a lot of the other teams needed him more than you did though!
I do wonder what would have happened with Cocu as a pivot and potential drop into CB, WBs further forward...
AN Other at the time you took Pires would have been a brilliant player, let alone if you had gone for a CB.
Your main out take from the draft should be not to ever end up with such a poor core three. I redid your entire makeup there but there's no getting away from that eyesore. I know, Nesta "perhaps" is better than Simic and your defense is "on par" with EDogen's... but we both know it's all manager bravado.
Ok decided to change things round a bit. Sacrifice with Pires but feel this will should play better with Ze Roberto as the wing back and Cocu moving to centre back where he played numerous times. Frank de Boer will act as the sweeper, a role he played with Ajax. Now got Di Livio with the engine in midfield allowing Zidane a free role behind 2 dangerous strikers.
Antohan, you read my mind
Is that "The All Out"?
Yep, feel still have the balance with Di Livio and Seedorf along with two quality wing backs. This allows Zidane to provide a threat with Lopez and Shevchenko.
That attack
feck it, I know that formation is bonkers but I admire TheGame's gumption. He's got my vote.
Haha cheers mate, believe me there is some thinking behind it and I think it's workable.
Given how you have laid it out as a 3-4-3 you may as well have kept Pires and got shot of Reuter altogether, you will have several hairy-chested and prematurely bald babies in 9 months' time anyway.
More of a 3-4-1-2 really. Nah Reuter still offers that wing back option which Pires doesn't.
All in tactic I see.
Robben and Giggs gets extra energy when they see that the full backs has started to push up leaving counter attacks for Robben against Cocu and Giggs against Simic.
Robben and Giggs gets extra energy when they see that the full backs has started to push up leaving counter attacks for Robben against Cocu and Giggs against Simic.
Reuter has had a tough game keeping track od Giggs and now he has the whole right side by himself against Evra and Giggs who will flourish of the change.
Yep kind of although the defensive cover is still the with Di Livio in midfield and the two wing backs against the counter attacking opportunities but the introduction of De Boer as the sweeper should offer that cover. Plus the two wing backs have good pace and stamina so can see them getting back when presented with a counter threat.
The new formation puts more pressure in your midfield two so will present a tougher challenge.
The new formation puts more pressure in your midfield two so will present a tougher challenge.
I like that Antohan's formation better. Put Reuter as RWB and diLivio in midfield (as he's done with Juve and Italy). Dortmund had that when winning the CL, and THeGame has personals to do that.
OP updated, very interesting change - A lot of pace in that front two!
Sammer was a sweeper in that team wasn't he?
Here it looks more like a diamond than 5 at the back, with Cocu in defensive midfield rather than defense.
The one that TheGame has posted is actually more like that Dortmund team than Antohan's formation.
3-4-3, 3-4-1-2
Potatoe, potato
Footballuser is great for making it look like you have all areas of the pitch covered but rubbish to get across tactical nuances.
I thought you had two choices there:
1) Go with a balanced risk-on strategy pushing your fullbacks further up as true wingbacks and dropping the excellent ball-pinger that Cocu is back as three-at-the-back cover:
Not far from Leverkusen/Roma in the early 00s
or
2) The complete gung-ho approach I thought you were going for in placing de Boer as a sole defender and taking advantage of Simic/Cocu's preferred sides to have them as some odd sweeping-DMs-cum-FBcover and just go all out attack on EDogen (which is where Pires made more sense, maybe leaving Reuter ahead of Simic):
aka Mad SAF 90th min tactics when chasing a game
Potatoe, potato
Footballuser is great for making it look like you have all areas of the pitch covered but rubbish to get across tactical nuances.
I thought you had two choices there:
1) Go with a balanced risk-on strategy pushing your fullbacks further up as true wingbacks and dropping the excellent ball-pinger that Cocu is back as three-at-the-back cover:
Not far from Leverkusen/Roma in the early 00s
or
2) The complete gung-ho approach I thought you were going for in placing de Boer as a sole defender and taking advantage of Simic/Cocu's preferred sides to have them as some odd sweeping-DMs-cum-FBcover and just go all out attack on EDogen (which is where Pires made more sense, maybe leaving Reuter ahead of Simic):
aka Mad SAF 90th min tactics when chasing a game
I see that third option, just don't think it's worthwhile. I don't see the point in trying to shore up that defence, I would much rather better utilise Cocu in a Guardiolesque ball-pinging role and resort to him as cover than tie him up to a still exposed and porous back three.
Actually, it would be interesting to gage how many prefer:
a)
Cocu-----Simic
----de Boer
over
b)
-------Cocu
de Boer---Simic
both with wingbacks.
The former is the more traditional approach, the latter has been more popular in the last decade or so because with lone strikers being deployed three at the back is a waste, it gives more bodies in midfield, and you "drop back if needed" as opposed to "hope to get forward as and when".
In the 70s draft (my first) my first rookie mistake was to pick Carsten Ramelow around turn 5 to fulfill that DM-cum-3rdCB role.
My second rookie mistake was to expect anyone to read the tactics or even understand them. Most thought Ramelow was doing the Makelele DM role, they said the whole drop back thing was too complex despite that being what he did very successfully for Leverkusen and Germany for half a decade. In fairness, it may have been the rival managers saying it was too complex and me not seeing the forest and the trees. Barcelona hadn't started doing it though, so perceptions may have changed since then.
So, what says the caf, valid strategy (with the right personnel) or a car crash and a mauling waiting to happen?
a)
Cocu-----Simic
----de Boer
over
b)
-------Cocu
de Boer---Simic
both with wingbacks.
The former is the more traditional approach, the latter has been more popular in the last decade or so because with lone strikers being deployed three at the back is a waste, it gives more bodies in midfield, and you "drop back if needed" as opposed to "hope to get forward as and when".
In the 70s draft (my first) my first rookie mistake was to pick Carsten Ramelow around turn 5 to fulfill that DM-cum-3rdCB role.
My second rookie mistake was to expect anyone to read the tactics or even understand them. Most thought Ramelow was doing the Makelele DM role, they said the whole drop back thing was too complex despite that being what he did very successfully for Leverkusen and Germany for half a decade. In fairness, it may have been the rival managers saying it was too complex and me not seeing the forest and the trees. Barcelona hadn't started doing it though, so perceptions may have changed since then.
So, what says the caf, valid strategy (with the right personnel) or a car crash and a mauling waiting to happen?
Tactical change
Enrique --> RB (utility man takes the RB and gets some speed to that side of the defence)
Ferrara --> CB (at least on the same level as Hierro if not better)
Hierro --> DM (can spread the balls out to my wingers and also a rock in the middle)
Reasons for the change:
Enrique --> RB (utility man takes the RB and gets some speed to that side of the defence)
Ferrara --> CB (at least on the same level as Hierro if not better)
Hierro --> DM (can spread the balls out to my wingers and also a rock in the middle)
Reasons for the change:
- Expose the wingbacks with Evra/Giggs against Reuter and Enrique/Robben against Ze Roberto.
- Strengthen the midfield two in a defensive aspect to keep things quiet there and focus on attacking on the flanks.
Nah, that was indeed like mine with Freund as a midfielder who could drop back. I guess Dortmund felt more confident about that game than the CL final vs. Juve:Not this one?
With EDogen playing a lone striker upfront (and one that actually drops back to build up rather than just sit up there), and Deco being more a midfielder than hole/second striker I reckon the midfield cum CB is the better choice than the sweeper behind the CBs.
Bizarre.
You just got rid of your most potent threat through the middle and shunted him at RB. He was helping Robben a lot more from midfield, keeping de Boer worried about his surging runs.
Ferrara is not happy about you not being clear whether he is better than Hierro.
Hierro thinks you sent him there because he was a fecking liability with López running rings around him.
We are at half time. You were on top of the game and suddenly your team talk indicates you are uncertain about whether you are doing it right.
Morale shot to pieces.
GAME ON!
Well I have the lead.
I want to tight things up in the middle with Hierro.
Ferrara gets his best position.
And Enrique more than capable of that RB slot since TheGame is mostly a threat down the middle.
Half time it is yes, and since that change he did he managed to get back a bit in the game and like the all-action manager I am, I react to expose his new weakness. Like it or not.
I want to tight things up in the middle with Hierro.
Ferrara gets his best position.
And Enrique more than capable of that RB slot since TheGame is mostly a threat down the middle.
Half time it is yes, and since that change he did he managed to get back a bit in the game and like the all-action manager I am, I react to expose his new weakness. Like it or not.
Your midfield just got really fecking dull though and Luis Enrique is starting to lament his "utility man" tag.
He was a fecking monster of a player who could walk into any great side, not John O'Shea who was glad he was at Manchester United in the first place.
He was a fecking monster of a player who could walk into any great side, not John O'Shea who was glad he was at Manchester United in the first place.
I know you love your man Enrique. He is also a team player and will do everything to win the game for his team.
Now 7 hours of sleep.
Now 7 hours of sleep.