Redcafe Sheep Draft 1st Semi Final - Edgar Allan Pillow vs Gio

[Moby]

The aim of this poll is to decide the winner in this fantasy game contested between two sides assembled through the method of drafting. For the purpose of this game, all players would be considered as being at their respective peaks. I invite all posters to go through the formations, tactics and arguments that will follow in the thread and kindly leave their vote. Thanks.

Edgar Allan Pillow's Tactics

Team Formation 4-1-2-1-2 Midfield Diamond

Core Strength: A strong, yet flexible spine. Versatality nearly everywhere. This leads to fluid change in formations depending on necessity. This also leads to an added advantage of making it difficult to man-mark opposition or defend against a set game plan. Movement between a defensive 4-3-1-2 to attacking 4-1-3-2 is by reflex dictated by minute by minute matchplay. No need for substitutes or any tactical yelling by the mananger from sidelines.


Key Points: Defence

Amoros---Sanchis---Maldini---Branco
--------------------Desailly---------------------

Desailly's capability to drop back into the centre of defence makes it a fluid unit that is a capable of operating both as a 4 man or a 5 man defence depending on the necessities of the game. All the players invovled are comfortable at playing in both formations comfortable. Whether Desailly fighting it out with Rivaldo or deopping back to central defence freeing up the fullbacks, it is versatile enough to handle anything that can be thrown at them.

In worst case situations, despite all normal and most abnormal expectations, if we still end up with a requirement to beef this area up to stratosphere, there always is Sammer a Ballon d'Or winning defender. Ballack is no slouch at helping out in defence either.

Key Strengths: Attack

-----Sammer-------Ballack------
------------Rui Costa-------------
-------Romario-------Baggio-------


Traditionally Rui Costa is known as a creative playmaker, but a lesser known fact about his is his ability to act as a equally good deep lying playmaker too. This versatality enables him to drop deeper into the midfield strenthtening the area than most of his peers and still maintain his creative influence in the game. This is balamced by Ballack's tendancy to spot chances to go on his deadly runs into the box to score important goals. Sammer is a powerhouse and can never be ignored anywhere box-to-box. Even after moving to sweeper/libero position, he pops up with key goals, and when operating in midfield, he sure does sore on regular basis.

The crowning glowry on a already fluid and completely lethal midfield is the incomparable Baggio. Though starting as second striker a look at his goal videos clearly shows Baggio's ability and willingness to move all over the half with equal expertise in creating for others and scoring himself. The deep run starting from midfield, dribbling past multiple defenders and scoring against Czechoslovakia is a clear example of how difficult it is to keep track of him.

At the top of this attacking machine awaits, lurking around the box awaits Romario. Few quicker ways of footballing suicide exists for a defender other than going one on one with Romario.

Simply put the team comprises of: Best goalscorer in the draft, best supporting striker in the draft and the best defender in the draft.

Presuming my opponent will be playing a 4-2-3-1:

Defence - My opponents 4 man attack meets my 5 man defence. Desailly is definitely up to the task of keeping an eye over Rivaldo. With my fullbacks watching the flanks, In case his full backs advance to provide thrust to the attack, my box-to-box CM's are more than helpful to lend a hand and fend off threats without losing much of their attacking potency. Our defence is fully geared to handle anything that can be thrown at them.

Midfield - My CM's Sammer and Ballack are much more proficient in supporting my attacks than Simeone and Davids can do for my opponent (which on flip side makes defending against them relatively easier for me too). When attacking they will keep Simeone and Davids occupied full time, thereby reducing the focus on my attackers. They are equally capable of scoring on their own too.

Attack - Rui Costa, Baggio and Romario don't need introduction to lethality. Rui Costa as AM and Romario in the box should keep his CB's busy. Baggio in his free wandering role drifting all over the place...

Since my midfield has been perceived in previous matches as 'weak', let me spend some time introducing them a bit:

The 'Red Baron' Sammer joined Dynamo Dresden as a striker he eventually settled as a midfielder. From the very beginning he started to show his attacking prowess and was a crucial member of the Dresden team that won the league and domestic cup double in 1990. Sammer was developing into a tough but scoring midfielder and was becoming more and more central to things at Stuttgart, whom he joined after Dresden. The next season Sammer was the undoubted leader of the team, and he led VfB to the league title, making them the first German club to win the league in a reunified Germany. After a brief stint in Milan, he was back to the thick of things at Borussia and Ottmar Hitzfeld deployed him as central midfielder for the remainder of the season. He scored 10 times and was crucial to the club.

He is the first defender to win the Ballon d'Or since Franz Beckenbauer

In 5 seasons with Dresden he averaged 10.8 goals per season
In 2 seasons with stuttgart he averaged 11.5 goals per season
In his last season as midfielder with Dortmund he scored 10 goals in 17 games.


Machael Ballack is among the top goal scorers in the history of his international team. He was selected by Pelé as one of FIFA's 125 Greatest Living Players, and as the UEFA Club Midfielder of the Year in 2002. He has won the German Footballer of the Year award three times – in 2002, 2003 and 2005. Ballack was known for his passing range, scoring ability, ball skills, and commanding presence in midfield.

In his peak season 2001-2003, he averaged 19 goals per season.

Individual honours in his peak period include:

UEFA Club Midfielder of the Year: 2002
UEFA Team of the Year: 2002
German Footballer of the Year: 2002, 2003, 2005; Runner-up 2008
Most assists in the 2002 FIFA World Cup
FIFA World Cup All-star team: 2002, 2006
Bayer Leverkusen Squad of the Century
FIFA 100

TEAM EDGAR ALLAN PILLOW

Spoiler: Starting Team

(Change made at 3-7)

Current team:

TEAM GIO

Gio's Tactics

​

I expect our midfield to exert control of the match. Davids and Simeone are fiercely competitive all-rounders who will provide the platform for the exceptionally talented attacking trio of Rivaldo, Hagi and Nedved. That's a tasty and talented five that marries physicality (Davids and Simeone's bite, Nedved's energy), technical ability (all five) and mental qualities (Rivaldo and Hagi's vision, the resilience of the other three) to form a balanced midfield.
The way to goal:
Whether Edgar opts for 3-5-2 or 4-3-2-1, either way there is a lack of attacking width and proper defensive support down the flanks. That will allow Andreas Brehme to control the left flank. He will combine with Rivaldo to isolate Amoros and create havoc. Amoros is a great full-back but he'll be exposed not only up against Rivaldo, but even more so with the additional support provided by Brehme.

If Edgar opts for Branco on his left side, I fancy Pavel Nedved to get the better of him enough times to serve Christian Vieri, who as the all-time highest scorer of headed goals in Serie A, could have a fruitful day.

Dealing with the opposition's threat:
Edgar has pulled in a lot of central attacking quality. Therefore Edgar Davids and Diego Simeone, two of the very best players for that job, will be asked to play fairly conservatively to limit the threat in their area. Guiseppe Bergomi will also be tasked with tucking in where required. Given the fantastic quality of our back four, we should be able to shut out most if not all of Edgar's considerable threat in this area.

​

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@antohan

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Yawn!

 

[Stobzilla]

Two very good side, I am leaning towards Gio however, I would have been tempted to play Baggio at the tip of the diamond and had Rui Costa in the middle alongside Desailly with Sammer anchoring the midfield, Ballack could have been sacrificed here for another striker. IMO of course.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@Gio should really switch between Rivaldo and Hagi. Hagi played for Romania in LW and did it brilliantly, while Rivaldo is known to hate it. Really weakens his team not playing Rivaldo in his best position.

 

[Thisistheone]

Whats the thinking in Rivaldo, Hagi being where they are Gio? Both can get at Amoros.

Two excellent teams, as you'd expect.

 

[Stobzilla]

@Gio should really switch between Rivaldo and Hagi. Hagi played for Romania in LW and did it brilliantly, while Rivaldo is known to hate it. Really weakens his team not playing Rivaldo in his best position.

"Best" isn't the same as favoured. Rivaldo was equally adept at both positions and most people have recognised this in drafts previously.

 

[Theon]

Aye, see no problem with Rivaldo's position at all.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Really hard to vote on this, I spent quite a while thinking it through, also not a fan of Rivaldo's positioning but I think he played a lot of his latter years there for Brazil and was quite effective, not necessarily starting there, but I'd imagine heat maps etc would reveal he spent a lot of time to the left of the penalty box, so I don't see it as an issue like others do.. I went for @Gio

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Two very good side, I am leaning towards Gio however, I would have been tempted to play Baggio at the tip of the diamond and had Rui Costa in the middle alongside Desailly with Sammer anchoring the midfield, Ballack could have been sacrificed here for another striker. IMO of course.

Why? I still out man him 5 to 4 in defence. Midfield tied 2-2. I have 3 attackers to his 4 defenders but all mine are central, whereas his is spread across back 4.

 

[Stobzilla]

Why? I still out man him 5 to 4 in defence. Midfield tied 2-2. I have 3 attackers to his 4 defenders but all mine are central, whereas his is spread across back 4.

Only because I haven't ever seen Sammer play that far forward in terms of a starting position, I have only known him to Anchor a midfield or play at centre back/sweeper. But then again that is probably more down to my limited knowledge of him.

 

[Gio]

Whats the thinking in Rivaldo, Hagi being where they are Gio? Both can get at Amoros.

Two excellent teams, as you'd expect.

Yes, Rivaldo was moved wide to maximise the mismatch that is likely to occur down my left-flank when him and Brehme join forces to overwhelm Amoros.

As for Rivaldo's positoning, it's well known he did a lot of his best work between the middle of the park and the left touchline. He played on the left:

• For Brazil during the 1998 World Cup. They played a 4-4-2 cum 4-2-2-2 and Rivaldo operated in an inside-left role.
• For Barcelona initially under Van Gaal, where he was constrained to a very wide role. Still excelled there, wasn't entirely happy with it, and hence why he's got a bit more freedom in this match to roam and swap with Hagi as the need arises.
• For Deportivo he tended to play from an inside-left role, in a second-striker-cum-wide-attacker role.

 

[Thisistheone]

Cheers Gio. Was just a curiosity into your thinking.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

"Best" isn't the same as favoured. Rivaldo was equally adept at both positions and most people have recognised this in drafts previously.

Aye, see no problem with Rivaldo's position at all.

Yes, Rivaldo was moved wide to maximise the mismatch that is likely to occur down my left-flank when him and Brehme join forces to overwhelm Amoros.

As for Rivaldo's positoning, it's well known he did a lot of his best work between the middle of the park and the left touchline. He played on the left:

• For Brazil during the 1998 World Cup. They played a 4-4-2 cum 4-2-2-2 and Rivaldo operated in an inside-left role.
• For Barcelona initially under Van Gaal, where he was constrained to a very wide role. Still excelled there, wasn't entirely happy with it, and hence why he's got a bit more freedom in this match to roam and swap with Hagi as the need arises.
• For Deportivo he tended to play from an inside-left role, in a second-striker-cum-wide-attacker role.

Still, Rivaldo said time and time again he hates it, and with Hagi's former play in LW, I think it makes no sense placing the initial players in their current positions. Put Rivaldo AM, Hagi LW, and let them do their magic together with position switching. It's not that big issue if it's the other way around, I just don't see the logic in doing it.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Only because I haven't ever seen Sammer play that far forward in terms of a starting position, I have only known him to Anchor a midfield or play at centre back/sweeper. But then again that is probably more down to my limited knowledge of him.

Just read the OP mate, or any other article on Sammer. He is a perfect fit there and more than capable of dominating it.

 

[Thisistheone]

Still, Rivaldo said time and time again he hates it, and with Hagi's former play in LW, I think it makes no sense placing the initial players in their current positions. Put Rivaldo AM, Hagi LW, and let them do their magic together with position switching. It's not that big issue if it's the other way around, I just don't see the logic in doing it.

Gio says they will switch, so don't think it's a problem. Either way round would have been fine. I just wondered if there was any other reasons Gio went for this particular way.

and hence why he's got a bit more freedom in this match to roam and swap with Hagi as the need arises.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Gio says they will switch, so don't think it's a problem. Either way round would have been fine. I just wondered if there was any other reasons Gio went for this particular way.

Yeah I got it, that's why I don't see any reason not to place them on the formation sheet the other way..

 

[Gio]

Still, Rivaldo said time and time again he hates it, and with Hagi's former play in LW, I think it makes no sense placing the initial players in their current positions. Put Rivaldo AM, Hagi LW, and let them do their magic together with position switching. It's not that big issue if it's the other way around, I just don't see the logic in doing it.

Rivaldo wasn't keen on the touchline-hugging, tactical straight-jacket he was imprisoned with under Van Gaal. He's obviously got more freedom here, so it's a role more akin to what he did at France '98 or by his own volition throughout his career.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

OK, just to clarify... This is a simulation I anticipated. The Players changed, but formation and tactics did not.

Forget the player names and just anticipate the game play.

1. I have sufficient cover in defence to hold him.

2. Midfield is tied even, though mine are better suited to my attack than his are to his attack. At worst it is tied and they won't support his defensive line.

3. He has no protection against my attack. Esp on counter, I will definitely score and more than once.

4. My attacking roster is way better than his defensive roster.

5. With more bodies in midfield, I control that area. Add in more lethal attackers, it's in my favour!

6. My threat in midfield far out scores his on width.

 

[Brwned]

Only because I haven't ever seen Sammer play that far forward in terms of a starting position, I have only known him to Anchor a midfield or play at centre back/sweeper. But then again that is probably more down to my limited knowledge of him.

When he moved back to Dortmund in January 1993 he went on to score 10 goals in 17 games in the second half of 92/93 season - you can bet he didn't play as an anchor in midfield then! Or if he did he must have been exceptionally good at it if he could offer that goal threat as well.

 

[RoadTrip]

OK, just to clarify... This is a simulation I anticipated. The Players changed, but formation and tactics did not.

Forget the player names and just anticipate the game play.

1. I have sufficient cover in defence to hold him.

2. Midfield is tied even, though mine are better suited to my attack than his are to his attack. At worst it is tied and they won't support his defensive line.

3. He has no protection against my attack. Esp on counter, I will definitely score and more than once.

4. My attacking roster is way better than his defensive roster.

5. With more bodies in midfield, I control that area. Add in more lethal attackers, it's in my favour!

6. My threat in midfield far out scores his on width.

I think the problem with this analysis is that football is much more dynamic then this. For example one issue here is that Brehme and Bergomi are less tied up then Amoros and Branco. You advantage in attacking numbers in the centre when attacking is limited because you have one of these full backs who can tuck in without any real risk down the outside.

Additionally from a Gio offensive perspective, he has much less risk in his full backs going forward. This creates a numerical advantage when he is going forward and in particular allows Nedved and Rivaldo to sit further inside knowing the width can be provided by the full backs at less risk.

Agree you have an advantage in midfield - Baggio seems to be free, and a breaking Ballack and Rui Costa will keep Davids and Simeone busy. Would be interested to know from Gio how he plans to link his attack and defence. I think he'd have to force Hagi to come deeper then he'd like out of possession - but does that then give EAP's numerical advantage in defence the upper hand on Gio's attack?

I'm leaning towards Gio at the moment i think largely due to the fact that the full backs could have a big influence.

 

[Balu]

When he moved back to Dortmund in January 1993 he went on to score 10 goals in 17 games in the second half of 92/93 season - you can bet he didn't play as an anchor in midfield then! Or if he did he must have been exceptionally good at it if he could offer that goal threat as well.

Pretty sure it was a 532 with Sammer, Zorc and Michael Rummenigge in midfield. I don't think there was a midfield role comparable to the anchor in a diamond.

I don't really get, why he doesn't start as a libero with Desailly as the DM though? The classic 532 set-up with a DM in midfield covering for Sammer's runs and complete freedom for the wingbacks to move forward? Ballack '06 in midfield is a great fit as well and Sammer would play his Ballon d'Or role and not one he maybe played for half a year and did a good job in.

 

[antohan]

Rivaldo wasn't keen on the touchline-hugging, tactical straight-jacket he was imprisoned with under Van Gaal. He's obviously got more freedom here, so it's a role more akin to what he did at France '98 or by his own volition throughout his career.

Amazed by this discussion. And there I was all game insisting you had too many left-footers who would all end up playing around the inside left zone...

Rivaldo is absolutely fine there. Lulzy, just remembered, I got no end of abuse in the 70s draft for working the left flank via Zidane/Forlán and not picking Rivaldo as an upgrade for it. The three year gap between both drafts probably accounts for the difference between people having mostly watched him pre and post-2000. In his pomp he was an inside left and, if pushed for a central or left starting slot, I'd place him left.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Agree you have an advantage in midfield - Baggio seems to be free, and a breaking Ballack and Rui Costa will keep Davids and Simeone busy. Would be interested to know from Gio how he plans to link his attack and defence. I think he'd have to force Hagi to come deeper then he'd like out of possession - but does that then give EAP's numerical advantage in defence the upper hand on Gio's attack?

I'm leaning towards Gio at the moment i think largely due to the fact that the full backs could have a big influence.

I still don't understand. A free Baggio is less threat than attacking full back?

I'd bet on Baggio and Romario with even odds, forget a attacking midfield. Why?

 

[antohan]

OK, just to clarify... This is a simulation I anticipated.

That doesn't represent a single moment in the game.

Don't bother. Being fair and accurate gives you no end of stick, while being pointless is, well, pointless.

Black mark for not taking the piss. 80% of the reason for these is to take the piss.

 

[RoadTrip]

I still don't understand. A free Baggio is less threat than attacking full back?

I'd bet on Baggio and Romario with even odds, forget a attacking midfield. Why?

You make a fair point, however maybe I didn't word it properly. It looks like Baggio is free however, need to remember the full backs won't be defending against a wide man - they'd be able to tuck in. Maybe he wouldn't be so free when you consider that.

 

[antohan]

I don't really get, why he doesn't start as a libero with Desailly as the DM though?

It would be the right call in terms of the football, but it looks better with Desailly and Sammer where they are. Swap them and it looks way more negative than it actually is.

No one will see Sammer bombing from his position and Desailly covering him. Others would say if he bombs then the whole back three and releasing the fullbacks is gone... No point spending the entire thread arguing about it. It's one of those whereby if you want people to see something happening you actually have to put the players in certain positions, even when putting them there is technically wrong and ignores how they actually best played their football.

Haven't you noticed how Branco and Amoros have no arrows? God forbid, if they did they would be completely exposed... doesn't change what they would be doing though does it?

 

[Balu]

It would be the right call in terms of the football, but it looks better with Desailly and Sammer where they are. Swap them and it looks way more negative than it actually is.

No one will see Sammer bombing from his position and Desailly covering him. Others would say if he bombs then the whole back three and releasing the fullbacks is gone... No point spending the entire thread arguing about it. It's one of those whereby if you want people to see something happening you actually have to put the players in certain positions, even when putting them there is technically wrong and ignores how they actually best played their football.

Haven't you noticed how Branco and Amoros have no arrows? God forbid, if they did they would be completely exposed... doesn't change what they would be doing though does it?

Damn ,you're bitter .

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

You make a fair point, however maybe I didn't word it properly. It looks like Baggio is free however, need to remember the full backs won't be defending against a wide man - they'd be able to tuck in. Maybe he wouldn't be so free when you consider that.

But dude, consider it's Baggio and Romario. Do you think tucking in full backs can stop a free Baggio?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

That doesn't represent a single moment in the game.

It's just a overlay of starting formations to help you visualize gamplay!

This11 stopped working in both office pc and mobile. Forgive me for not taking piss

 

[antohan]

Damn ,you're bitter .

Nah, just emphasising there's a valid reason to go with things which look "off" to spare yourself the aggro of having to make the case for the bleeding obvious.

You see, there's no way Sammer can sit there, drop into a three and also bomb forward occasionally. Manic :sarcasm:. The only player who ever managed to do two completely inconsistent things at the exact same time is on the pitch, but it's not Matthias. He has a glorious moustache on him

Others have tried being in two places at the same time but couldn't pull it off and got found out, which is why Michel is now on the bench.

Anyhow, liking the new-look Gio. Sorted lack of support from those upfront with Nedved on one flank, and sorted lack of attacking contribution from the defence with Brehme on the other. It all looks WAY more balanced and coherent now, at least to me. Still lacks that ball player from defence, but I don't think he is countering here. Or is he?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Haven't you noticed how Branco and Amoros have no arrows? God forbid, if they did they would be completely exposed... doesn't change what they would be doing though does it?

Feck, no arrows. They cause more damage than use. I hope voters think they are defending diligently leaving attack to middle. Not exactly accurate, but dual roles seem to be a sore point in voting nowadays!

 

[antohan]

But dude, consider it's Baggio and Romario. Do you think tucking in full backs can stop a free Baggio?

When the tucking in fullback is Bergomi? Not a stretch really.

 

[Moby]

Nah, just emphasising there's a valid reason to go with things which look "off" to spare yourself the aggro of having to make the case for the bleeding obvious.

You see, there's no way Sammer can sit there, drop into a three and also bomb forward occasionally. Manic. The only player who ever managed to do two completely inconsistent things at the exact same time is on the pitch, but it's not Matthias. He has a glorious moustache on him

Others have tried being in two places at the same time but couldn't pull it off and got found out, which is why Michel is now on the bench.

Anyhow, liking the new-look Gio. Sorted lack of support from those upfront with Nedved on one flank, and sorted lack of attacking contribution from the defence with Brehme on the other. It all looks WAY more balanced and coherent now, at least to me. Still lacks that ball player from defence, but I don't think he is countering here. Or is he?

Definitely. The defense is rock solid more than before and Brehme would surely enjoy that much freedom.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

When the tucking in fullback is Bergomi? Not a stretch really.

I do rate Bergomi, but against a Baggio Romario, combo? Not quite.
Who's tracking Rui Costa? Simeone and Davids are busy with Ballack and Sammer.

 

[antohan]

I do rate Bergomi, but against a Baggio Romario, combo? Not quite.

Kohler and Campbell are up against that combo. Bergomi tucking in to support them is as good as it gets. I disagree with Baggio being loose TBH, it's more Ballack, Sammer and Rui Costa who are bound to be toying with Davids and Simeone at times.

Who's tracking Rui Costa? Simeone and Davids are busy with Ballack and Sammer.

hadn't read this yet. Exactly. Baggio isn't loose, Rui Costa is. Stob may have had a point that it would be more popular for Baggio to be loose and Sheva upfront. I don't agree with it myself, but I don't think Rui Costa will get the credit he deserves here.

 

[Moby]

I do rate Bergomi, but against a Baggio Romario, combo? Not quite.
Who's tracking Rui Costa? Simeone and Davids are busy with Ballack and Sammer.

That's a good point, even with Nedved's energy EAP would have the upper hand in midfield and that can lead to Rui Costa getting freedom and he's more than good enough to feed that front two with some delicious chances. I see goals for your team for sure.

 

[antohan]

That's a good point, even with Nedved's energy EAP would have the upper hand in midfield and that can lead to Rui Costa getting freedom and he's more than good enough to feed that front two with some delicious chances. I see goals for your team for sure.

I'd expect Nedved is busy tracking Branco TBH, particularly if you expect Bergomi to be tucking in "unchallenged".

 

[RoadTrip]

Aye, the numbers in midfield could be an issue for Gio I think.

 

[Gio]

On Baggio, his favourite spot on the park is the inside-left, second-striker position. On Bergomi, his favourite spot on the park is the RCB/RB channel. I've instructed him to tuck in tight so that it's almost a central three in there. And given the calibre of Romario and Baggio, it's just as well that's a shit-hot three to focus entirely on that threat.