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Redcafe Sheep Draft Final - Gio vs Thisistheone

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?


  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .

Theon

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I never said Redondo was a bad player or anything of the sort, quite simply that you were misusing your squad and shoe-horning him into the side.

As it turns out, several people agreed, including a Real fan who would indeed be best placed to make an unbiased call on their relative merit.

You then changed the formation and everyone agreed it was better.

Go figure.
No everyone did not agree, typical hyperbole from you there.

I rate Aldo’s opinion a lot higher than yours and PatMustard is one of the best posters on the forum – both thought Redondo was fine. TITO was 4-1 up at the start of the game with Redondo and Vieira in midfield.

Anyway antohan, the problem isn’t that you disagreed but the way you went about it. You just wouldn’t shut the hell up and went on and on and on and on... And on. And on. You’ve made 56 posts in this thread which is more than Gio and the majority of them are slating TITO’s team. Pretty pathetic, really.

If Brwned or someone had disagreed with Redondo/Vieira he would have made one or two good posts explaining the problem before moving on, there might have been an interesting debate on the issue and we could all enjoy talking about great players. It was the same with Pat, he’ll just come into the thread and make a contribution before letting the game go forward.

You’re literally the complete opposite to that – monopolising the discussion, calling anyone who disagrees a “spastic” and just spamming the thread with your opinion.

The sad thing for TITO is that it’s probably cost him the game – he was cruising before you showed up and started repeatedly bashing his side. TITO really didn’t want to sub off Vieira but it got the point where he thought he had to just to shut you up. I’ve seen it happen before where the sheer volume and hyperbole of your posts affects votes and he knew it was costing him the match – not because you’re a good drafter, but because you shout the loudest out of anyone in the thread.

Shame he had to do that really.
 

Theon

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The way he portrays his opinion as facts does rub several people the wrong way.
It isn't really that IMO - a lot of posters are pretty definitive in their opinions really - it's more the spamming and hyperbole of it all. If he disagrees with you then you're going to spend the whole game arguing against it and it does ruin the fun of the games.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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Sensing his opportunity, Suarez goes to bite Bergomi. But the uncompromising Italian gives him the death stare and the little rat scuttles off to hide in the changing rooms.
:lol:

Great game, guys.

This one cracked me up, last night. I could not help visualize Suarez jiggling to Bergomi only to scamper back, the rat! Got quite some weird looks in the train!
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Though the bickering is tiresome, I like the way both Theon and anothan posts generate conversation, controversial or not!

The major point being, there are two kids of voters, scan voters and those who can read and make their decisions. Scan voters do not care about posts and those who read and make decisions are not swayed by volume of posts or by any single poster. Be it Theon or antohan, the point is most here are capable of making their own opinions, so in the end though some may find it a nuisance, the overall impact in swaying votes is very less. Personally, though tiresome, I find more benfits in people post their views in a free manner.
 

antohan

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the point is most here are capable of making their own opinions, so in the end though some may find it a nuisance, the overall impact in swaying votes is very less. Personally, though tiresome, I find more benfits in people post their views in a free manner.
Agreed, it would all be quite boring if we all agreed, surely. That's what makes football great, that's why goal-line tech shouldn't be used, etc. Controversy and different opinions are what makes the game what it is, e.g. people who still get upset at Maradona's Hand of God almost 30 yers later. Brilliant stuff.

What I don't agree with though is the name-calling, let alone being made out to be the one doing it. If you call someone an idiot, clueless, an embarrassment and a gimp (and apparently respond to his posts with loads of greenies, if Fergus' post is anything to go by), you can't then complain about them not shutting up.
 
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Isotope

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As usual, I voted as early as possible.

Was disappointing to see Suarez (instead of Savicevic, wtf?) in TITO's, and thought Gio upgrading Simeone to Dessaily was a very good move (never rate Simeone as a player, and Desailly is as close to Rijkaard you can find as a DM, imo). So voted for Gio.

Later on, both made their changes, and would easily put my vote in TITO-Theon if that's their starting formations. I don't know if any other thought the same :D.

Congrats to Gio (who's also helped by getting Romario. Big time ;)), and also TITO-Theon who were really 'brave' by staying true with theirs 'unconventional' formation to the final whistle. Bravo to all of you. And another excellent job by AldoR.
 
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Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
As usual, I voted as early as possible.

Was disappointing to see Suarez (instead of Savicevic, wtf?) in TITO's, and thought Gio upgrading Simeone to Dessaily was a very good move (never rate Simeone as a player, and Desailly is as close to Rijkaard you can find as a DM, imo). So voted for Gio.

Later on, both made their changes, and would easily put my vote in TITO-Theon if that's their starting formations. I don't know if any other thought the same :D.

Congrats to Gio (who's also helped by getting Romario. Big time ;)), and also TITO-Theon who were really 'brave' by staying true with theirs 'unconventional' formation to the final whistle. Bravo to all of you. And another excellent job by AldoR.
Much as I love Savicevic and hate Suarez, I thought that was a sensible call by TITO and Theon, They needed the additional directness and goal threat of Suarez. My only uncertainty about their attack was Scholes as attacking midfielder along with Totti as false nine. That earlier incarnation of Scholes was used to having a more traditional striker (or two) occupying the centre backs while he timed his late runs towards the penalty area. Totti dropping deep so often would imo have compromised his ability to ghost into the box undetected, and to an extent i felt they might get in each other's way.

All in all though I loved their team, and their determination to stick to their game plan to the end. i think this was the only time I voted against them, and it was a tough decision.
 

Isotope

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Much as I love Savicevic and hate Suarez, I thought that was a sensible call by TITO and Theon, They needed the additional directness and goal threat of Suarez. My only uncertainty about their attack was Scholes as attacking midfielder along with Totti as false nine. That earlier incarnation of Scholes was used to having a more traditional striker (or two) occupying the centre backs while he timed his late runs towards the penalty area. Totti dropping deep so often would imo have compromised his ability to ghost into the box undetected, and to an extent i felt they might get in each other's way.

All in all though I loved their team, and their determination to stick to their game plan to the end. i think this was the only time I voted against them, and it was a tough decision.
Is Suarez more effective on the left than Savicevic? That's even not Suarez best position.
 

antohan

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Is Suarez more effective on the left than Savicevic? That's even not Suarez best position.
That role cutting in from the left was perfect for Suárez IMO, while Savicevic wasn't much of a goalscorer (1 in 5 record for Milan). Tito had plenty of players who could play ball but needed goals so there was a good case for that extra bite, no pun intended.

The problem I think was more to do with the oppo and how each would be rated. Brehme-Kohler was a mean flank and Tito unfortunately used up all his chips on that stronger flank. If you had to choose Gio's "weaker" side in defence it was Bergomi-Campbell (less so with Desailly in 2H, but he was meant to be tracking Totti!), so ideally you put your strongest attacking player there.

As I mentioned in Tito's previous game, I'd much rather Stoichkov attacking the far post when the attacking fullback advanced. Cafú-Pessotto and Cafú-Maldini spelt the same: Cafú right and Stoichkov better used on the left. Then Savicevic is naturally the man to play on the right. With Cafú he would probably keep Kohler and Brehme as busy, but you would then have a higher rated Stoichkov on the left instead of Suárez.

There wasn't much in it beyond personal preference though, it had little to do with Savicevic or Suárez and more to do with how best to use Stoichkov and where.
 

crappycraperson

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Suarez is clearly not good enough to play in the final though. He has not done much yet to qualify for it. May be when his career his over he will be.
 

antohan

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Suarez is clearly not good enough to play in the final though. He has not done much yet to qualify for it. May be when his career his over he will be.
He is not exactly a talented youngster though, he is 27. Sure, everything indicates he is reaching his peak and that the next couple of years from him may be great. Then people would be more comfortable. That said, we usually judge Maradona on his 26-year-old performance in Mexico, or Ronaldo aged 20-23 at Barca and Inter... so why not judge him on his current 27-year-old self as a good indication of his peak?

I know what you mean, retirement creates that aura and mysticism which he is lacking, but I personally can't see why Hagi can play in the final and he can't, similar "big fish in a small pond" career record. I know, controversial, particularly when Suárez has achieved nothing in Europe. Not that he has had much chance to do so... I would laugh, but they are in the driving seat now :(
 

Annahnomoss

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We are just in an endless spiral discussing how peak is rated, which I think has been left undefined on purpose.

Personally I rate peak as 1.5-2 seasons~ in these drafts (bar draft rules of course) at least just to remove those one-season-wonders while still being fairly open minded.

Someone like Nani/Valencia will be rated quite highly by me but Suarez probably needs to continue this form in to the next season as well before I consider it his average level.

Currently I'd rate him by combining last season and this season and then he is not quite up there for this final in terms of skill - but then again I think the system is really nice for him so I have no problems with it.

I think it is quite a good idea to try and get a figure on peak for drafts though. So everybody has the same perspective when discussing a player as far too often one person thinks 1 year is a valid peak, the 2nd person says 2, the third person says 3 and the fourth person just evaluates the entire career of the player.
 

Moby

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He is not exactly a talented youngster though, he is 27. Sure, everything indicates he is reaching his peak and that the next couple of years from him may be great. Then people would be more comfortable. That said, we usually judge Maradona on his 26-year-old performance in Mexico, or Ronaldo aged 20-23 at Barca and Inter... so why not judge him on his current 27-year-old self as a good indication of his peak?

I know what you mean, retirement creates that aura and mysticism which he is lacking, but I personally can't see why Hagi can play in the final and he can't, similar "big fish in a small pond" career record. I know, controversial, particularly when Suárez has achieved nothing in Europe. Not that he has had much chance to do so... I would laugh, but they are in the driving seat now :(
Difference between those examples is that they were at their very best during that time but still good enough for plenty of years before and after to dominate most oppositions. Not the case with Suarez.
 

crappycraperson

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He is not exactly a talented youngster though, he is 27. Sure, everything indicates he is reaching his peak and that the next couple of years from him may be great. Then people would be more comfortable. That said, we usually judge Maradona on his 26-year-old performance in Mexico, or Ronaldo aged 20-23 at Barca and Inter... so why not judge him on his current 27-year-old self as a good indication of his peak?

I know what you mean, retirement creates that aura and mysticism which he is lacking, but I personally can't see why Hagi can play in the final and he can't, similar "big fish in a small pond" career record. I know, controversial, particularly when Suárez has achieved nothing in Europe. Not that he has had much chance to do so... I would laugh, but they are in the driving seat now :(
Suarez has had one season now worthy of even being picked of this draft. Let him have another two
 

antohan

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Difference between those examples is that they were at their very best during that time but still good enough for plenty of years before and after to dominate most oppositions. Not the case with Suarez.
Suárez was only second to Forlán in his importance to us at the last World Cup (got into some FIFA Castrol Index XI, whatever that is or however it works). Then went on to be Player of the Tourno at the 2011 Copa América ahead of Messi, Neymar, etc. Top scorer in the CONMEBOL qualifiers, which feature Messi among others.

He has been quality for Liverpool before this season as well. It's all the nonsense, suspensions and Liverpool themselves changing managers all the time that has made this season stand out more.

It's not a one off season, this is his level under the right conditions.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Is Suarez more effective on the left than Savicevic? That's even not Suarez best position.
As a goalscorer, which is what TITO needed, I'd say yes. He doesn't have the big-game pedigree of Savicevic (yet) but his overall goalscoring record has been undeniably impressive this season and last season.
 

Isotope

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Suárez was only second to Forlán in his importance to us at the last World Cup (got into some FIFA Castrol Index XI, whatever that is or however it works). Then went on to be Player of the Tourno at the 2011 Copa América ahead of Messi, Neymar, etc. Top scorer in the CONMEBOL qualifiers, which feature Messi among others.

He has been quality for Liverpool before this season as well. It's all the nonsense, suspensions and Liverpool themselves changing managers all the time that has made this season stand out more.

It's not a one off season, this is his level under the right conditions.
But was he playing on the wing for those, or in that TITO's position?
 

Isotope

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As a goalscorer, which is what TITO needed, I'd say yes. He doesn't have the big-game pedigree of Savicevic (yet) but his overall goalscoring record has been undeniably impressive this season and last season.
Totti and Stoickhov are 20+ goals/season players. It's just I never understand people comfortably ok with Suarez in either wing, because that's not how he plays, actually. Although maybe I am wrong to assume Suarez was on the wing for TITO's.
 

Moby

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Suárez was only second to Forlán in his importance to us at the last World Cup (got into some FIFA Castrol Index XI, whatever that is or however it works). Then went on to be Player of the Tourno at the 2011 Copa América ahead of Messi, Neymar, etc. Top scorer in the CONMEBOL qualifiers, which feature Messi among others.

He has been quality for Liverpool before this season as well. It's all the nonsense, suspensions and Liverpool themselves changing managers all the time that has made this season stand out more.

It's not a one off season, this is his level under the right conditions.
He was incredibly wasteful in his first full season at Liverpool, often failing to score after all the twists and turns. I personally rate his ability quite high but I'd say he's very much a flavour of the month at the moment.

I like Balu's way of judging. If Suarez retires today how much would he be remembered in the grand scheme of things 20 years later? One of the best forwards of his generation or a mere flash in the pan?
 

crappycraperson

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Suárez was only second to Forlán in his importance to us at the last World Cup (got into some FIFA Castrol Index XI, whatever that is or however it works). Then went on to be Player of the Tourno at the 2011 Copa América ahead of Messi, Neymar, etc. Top scorer in the CONMEBOL qualifiers, which feature Messi among others.

He has been quality for Liverpool before this season as well. It's all the nonsense, suspensions and Liverpool themselves changing managers all the time that has made this season stand out more.

It's not a one off season, this is his level under the right conditions.
His finishing has improved immensely this season and has elevated him to another level. Even at WC 2010, he fluffed some easy chances.

Like Aldo said, if he does not have any good seasons this point onwards, he won't even be selected for any drafts in 10 years
 

antohan

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But was he playing on the wing for those, or in that TITO's position?
Uruguay played a 4-3-3 with Suárez-Forlán-Cavani, not far off what Tito had there as he wasn't a winger but more an inside left who cut inside and regularly showed up as the striker when Forlán (Totti) went deep to pull the strings.

 

antohan

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Totti and Stoickhov are 20+ goals/season players. It's just I never understand people comfortably ok with Suarez in either wing, because that's not how he plays, actually. Although maybe I am wrong to assume Suarez was on the wing for TITO's.
Yeah, I think that's the problem, Suárez was defo not playing as a winger.
 

Isotope

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He played his best with peak Forlan behind. Can I assume he's a shadow of himself when playing with Cavani n Forlan?
 

Gio

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I thought his position was fine for TITO and felt it was the right decision for him to start. But equally I'm not sure his CV is yet established enough to be operating and convincing voters in a draft final. A couple more seasons of what he is doing now and, yes, he'll be in that sort of company.
 

Theon

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Suarez was perfect for where he played, absolutely perfect. It's why we prioritised him so early - there were very few players who could play this role as good as Saurez can.

Can anyone come up with some alternate names?

He certainly wasn't a winger, that was the whole point really, the idea was a striker who can operate wide and cut in from the flanks. If it was a winger out there on the left then we would have just upgraded to Giggsy when he got knocked out.

The role was an inside forward, making runs into the space behind Totti into central areas. I agree Suarez had to go - we both knew that and aren't daft - but a proper upgrade just wasn't there.

Funnily enough the perfect upgrade for us was Rivaldo in that inside left role, but Gio kept a firm grip on him throughout the tournament.
 

crappycraperson

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Suarez best form has come this season where he has been the main orchestrator in the Liverpool team, scoring and more importantly creating goals. So his best role won't be as a wide forward at all but as a second striker.
 

Theon

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Suarez best form has come this season where he has been the main orchestrator in the Liverpool team, scoring and more importantly creating goals. So his best role won't be as a wide forward at all but as a second striker.
Not sure what you're talking about, his role at Liverpool is very similar to this as Sturridge is the one who leads the line with Suarez pulling out wide and deep.

Rodgers has actually used Suarez as an inside forward in a 4-3-3. For Uruguay he played as an inside forward in a 4-3-3. When Rodgers plays two up top Suarez is the deeper of the two and constantly pulls out to the left as he is here.

Ignoring everything else you've said and wether or not Suarez plays this role - do you think there is a huge difference between a deep second striker who pulls out to the left, and a left inside forward who drifts centrally?
 

crappycraperson

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Not sure what you're talking about, his role at Liverpool is very similar to this as Sturridge is the one who leads the line with Suarez pulling out wide and deep.

Rodgers has actually used Suarez as an inside forward in a 4-3-3. For Uruguay he played as an inside forward in a 4-3-3. When Rodgers plays two up top Suarez is the deeper of the two and constantly pulls out to the left as he is here.

Ignoring everything else you've said and wether or not Suarez plays this role - do you think there is a huge difference between a deep second striker who pulls out to the left, and a left inside forward who drifts centrally?
Sturridge plays up top and generally creates space for Suarez using his movement. When he was not playing, Sterling and Coutinhio did on the wings for him. Suarez dropping deep is not the same as the role wide forward has to play in false 9 433. If Totti was playing as a conventional striker in 433 then perhaps yes but not in 433. If anything Suarez himself is capable of playing the false 9 role at his best.

And of course there is a difference. In your system, he will either have to move to the center to provide Totti with a presence upfront or use his movement to take away the defenders. As a second striker he would looking for others to do that for him and play the role of creator that Totti would here. In your team you already had Scholes, Redondo as well, you hardly needed another creative player.
 

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Since Sturridge is leading the line, Suarez scores significantly less goals and that's what you wanted him to do here, so I don't think that helps to prove the point.

Not that I expect anyone to believe it, but as usual, Müller would have been the perfect player. Stoichkov on the left and Müller on the right is imo significantly stronger in this set-up, especially because it would make that Cafu to Stoichkov on the far post attack so incredibly difficult to defend against. Not that he's easier to sell or anything, but at least he has 4 brilliant years and a proven record in the CL against the best teams in the world and a golden boot at the worldcup in a comparable role as well.
 

Theon

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Sturridge plays up top and generally creates space for Suarez using his movement. When he was not playing, Sterling and Coutinhio did on the wings for him. Suarez dropping deep is not the same as the role wide forward has to play in false 9 433. If Totti was playing as a conventional striker in 433 then perhaps yes but not in 433. If anything Suarez himself is capable of playing the false 9 role at his best.

And of course there is a difference. In your system, he will either have to move to the center to provide Totti with a presence upfront or use his movement to take away the defenders. As a second striker he would looking for others to do that for him and play the role of creator that Totti would here. In your team you already had Scholes, Redondo as well, you hardly needed another creative player.
Incredible you're suggesting he could play a false 9 role when he has no record of that, but that he can't play as a left sided forward which is something he has done throughout his entire career - a both club and international level.

This post really isn't making sense to me Crappy, particularly the creativity stuff. A lot of what you have written is just really 'general' statements that aren't explaining anything. I'm going to make a few points then you can respond and say where you disagree specifically,

1 - Firstly I know that Suarez has never played this exact role - the point of mentioning that Suarez often plays from the left wasn't to say "look, he is playing this exact same system for Liverpool". It was simply to point out that he is comfortable operating from an inside left position - which he absolutely is.

So I know he has never played to the left with a false 9, but he has played there in other set ups and the left is a natural area of the pitch for him. That is what I was getting across - it isn't like sticking Van Persie there, or even Aguero. Unlike those two the left is a perfectly natural position for Suarez to take up and he moves there all the time when he plays centrally, and often will just start there fullstop.

Would his effectiveness there change with a false 9? Maybe this is where you disagree, but IMO it absolutely wouldn't and if anything a false 9 would suit Suarez on the left more than if there was a real number 9 in the centre. With Totti dropping off the impact Suarez has centrally rises, his role is much less about being on the left and more about getting into the middle. If he had Van Persie where Totti was then that wouldn't be the case - RVP is playing in the areas where Suarez would be running into.

2 - Suarez is not being asked to be creative - you've just made that up. Is Stoichkov being asked to be creative on the right? Nope. If we had managed to get Thierry Henry would he be asked to be creative? Nope. It's the exact same. The role is quite simply to operate as a forward from the left who cuts inside to score goals, so not a winger like Giggs or a playmaking winger like Silva, but a goalscoring inside forward like Ronaldo for Madrid right now... Or you know, like Suarez who has done this before.

3 - The 'role of Totti' - I don't really get the creativity point anyway and he absolutely would never play the role Totti is here.. Suarez is a creative player in the sense that he creates opportunities just by being a nuisance and running at defenders - he makes things happen when he's on the ball, the majority due to his directness, pace and dribbling. He isn't at all creative the way that Totti is, with passes, flicks and through balls.

For Suarez his ability to create chances hasn't changed here at all, its a normal role for him. Even in the games where Rodgers plays Suarez centrally he'll constantly come out to the flanks and attack directly in possession, that is what is creative about him.



4 - Sturridge creates space for him - Yeah he does at times I guess.. most number 9's who make that run in behind will create space for their team mates. I don't understand the relevance here though? He has all the space in the left side of the pitch.. Plus when Totti drops deep he is creating more space for Suarez centrally than Sturridge has ever done. He is literally opening up that entire area behind the defence for Suarez to attack.

IMO it seems clear that if you can get this system to work then the inside forward will score more goals with a false 9 than with a typical number 9 like Sturridge playing there. Totti vacates the space, opens up the centre for Suarez to drive into, picks him out with a through ball. The whole idea of the tactic was to create space, its why we wanted a goalscorer there like Stoichkov, Henry or Cristiano.
 
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Theon

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Not that I expect anyone to believe it, but as usual, Müller would have been the perfect player. Stoichkov on the left and Müller on the right is imo significantly stronger in this set-up, especially because it would make that Cafu to Stoichkov on the far post attack so incredibly difficult to defend against. Not that he's easier to sell or anything, but at least he has 4 brilliant years and a proven record in the CL against the best teams in the world and a golden boot at the worldcup in a comparable role as well.
Agree Muller could definitely play the role.

I don't think he is any better than Suarez though, this season especially Suarez has been playing better than Muller ever has IMO 25 goals and 10 assists in 24 league games is incredible - I know how highly you rate Muller so don't expect you to agree.
 

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Agree Muller could definitely play the role.

I don't think he is any better than Suarez though, this season especially Suarez has been playing better than Muller ever has IMO 25 goals and 10 assists in 24 league games is incredible - I know how highly you rate Muller so don't expect you to agree.
I don't disagree. Suarez is outstanding this season and worthy to have a team build around him, Müller never was. Not sure what that has to do with a wide forward role in a team built around Totti though. Müller complements the movement way way better and has an amazing goal scoring record against the top teams in Europe, something Suarez clearly lacks. Most of the goals Suarez scored came when the team played through him, not when he moved off the ball. Countless goals were moments of brilliance on his own because he was allowed to do what he wants with the rest of the team playing for him.

I agree with Crappy's point about Suarez being more like a false 9, a brilliant ball-playing striker with vision, creativity and a great passing range who drops into the AM position a lot than a player who has brilliant movement off the ball, who tries to get at the end of through balls all the time or temporarily plays as a striker with great hold-up play. You basically want Suarez to do what Antohan did in his game with Cavani, and imo, Cavani is clearly the one suited to that role, Suarez isn't. You either take away what makes him so great this season or you have him drop into the same zone Totti loves to move into and that won't work.

Was David Villa never an option for you guys during the draft? Thought he played that inside left role brilliantly quite often in his career. Cutch picked him late while Tito picked Suarez relatively early if I remember correctly.
 

Theon

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I don't disagree. Suarez is outstanding this season and worthy to have a team build around him, Müller never was. Not sure what that has to do with a wide forward role in a team built around Totti though. Müller complements the movement way way better and has an amazing goal scoring record against the top teams in Europe, something Suarez clearly lacks. Most of the goals Suarez scored came when the team played through him, not when he moved off the ball. Countless goals were moments of brilliance on his own because he was allowed to do what he wants with the rest of the team playing for him.

I agree with Crappy's point about Suarez being more like a false 9, a brilliant ball-playing striker with vision, creativity and a great passing range who drops into the AM position a lot than a player who has brilliant movement off the ball, who tries to get at the end of through balls all the time or temporarily plays as a striker with great hold-up play. You basically want Suarez to do what Antohan did in his game with Cavani, and imo, Cavani is clearly the one suited to that role, Suarez isn't. You either take away what makes him so great this season or you have him drop into the same zone Totti loves to move into and that won't work.
For Uruguay Suarez has been more successful than Cavani playing this role. Surprised you think its the other way around.

I disagree on Muller ahead of Suarez, he could play the role as I said but overall I don't think he would be any better at all. He can't dribble as well and isn't as quick as Suarez which is really the main reason we prioritised him. He has a change of tempo which is IMO on another level to Muller and something which compliments - and in fact was vital - the Totti/Scholes/Deco trio.

I wouldn't say those were the main traits of Suarez at all, he is a good passer - we saw that again at the weekend - but the real danger Suarez brings is just running at defenders rather than his 'passing range'. That is what makes him more dangerous than someone like David Silva - the latter is a much better passer but its irrelevant because that isn't the main threat Suarez brings. You want him picking up the ball with space in front of him that he can dribble into, he'll just attack directly, arguably more directly than anyone in the league and it makes things happen.
 

crappycraperson

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Incredible you're suggesting he could play a false 9 role when he has no record of that, but that he can't play as a left sided forward which is something he has done throughout his entire career - a both club and international level.

This post really isn't making sense to me Crappy, particularly the creativity stuff. A lot of what you have written is just really 'general' statements that aren't explaining anything. I'm going to make a few points then you can respond and say where you disagree specifically,

1 - Firstly I know that Suarez has never played this exact role - the point of mentioning that Suarez often plays from the left wasn't to say "look, he is playing this exact same system for Liverpool". It was simply to point out that he is comfortable operating from an inside left position - which he absolutely is.

So I know he has never played to the left with a false 9, but he has played there in other set ups and the left is a natural area of the pitch for him. That is what I was getting across - it isn't like sticking Van Persie there, or even Aguero. Unlike those two the left is a perfectly natural position for Suarez to take up and he moves there all the time when he plays centrally, and often will just start there fullstop.

Would his effectiveness there change with a false 9? Maybe this is where you disagree, but IMO it absolutely wouldn't and if anything a false 9 would suit Suarez on the left more than if there was a real number 9 in the centre. With Totti dropping off the impact Suarez has centrally rises, his role is much less about being on the left and more about getting into the middle. If he had Van Persie where Totti was then that wouldn't be the case - RVP is playing in the areas where Suarez would be running into.

2 - Suarez is not being asked to be creative - you've just made that up. Is Stoichkov being asked to be creative on the right? Nope. If we had managed to get Thierry Henry would he be asked to be creative? Nope. It's the exact same. The role is quite simply to operate as a forward from the left who cuts inside to score goals, so not a winger like Giggs or a playmaking winger like Silva, but a goalscoring inside forward like Ronaldo for Madrid right now... Or you know, like Suarez who has done this before.

3 - The 'role of Totti' - I don't really get the creativity point anyway and he absolutely would never play the role Totti is here.. Suarez is a creative player in the sense that he creates opportunities just by being a nuisance and running at defenders - he makes things happen when he's on the ball, the majority due to his directness, pace and dribbling. He isn't at all creative the way that Totti is, with passes, flicks and through balls.

For Suarez his ability to create chances hasn't changed here at all, its a normal role for him. Even in the games where Rodgers plays Suarez centrally he'll constantly come out to the flanks and attack directly in possession, that is what is creative about him.



4 - Sturridge creates space for him - Yeah he does at times I guess.. most number 9's who make that run in behind will create space for their team mates. I don't understand the relevance here though? He has all the space in the left side of the pitch.. Plus when Totti drops deep he is creating more space for Suarez centrally than Sturridge has ever done. He is literally opening up that entire area behind the defence for Suarez to attack.

IMO it seems clear that if you can get this system to work then the inside forward will score more goals with a false 9 than with a typical number 9 like Sturridge playing there. Totti vacates the space, opens up the centre for Suarez to drive into, picks him out with a through ball. The whole idea of the tactic was to create space, its why we wanted a goalscorer there like Stoichkov, Henry or Cristiano.
Firstly my main point was about Suarez at his best being included in this system.

It is without question that he has been at his best this season and I am struggling to see how the role he has played at Liverpool this season is similar to one he was being asked to play in that team.
- The point about creativity was not down to his role in your team. Suarez being the one creating chances is a big reason behind him being a top player right now. Taking that role away from does take away from his game. Ofcourse his effectiveness would lessen if you take away that part of his game. Absolutely ridiculous to suggest it would not. His scoring rate has gone down in recent 5-6 games, yet he has been Liverpool's best player.
- There is ZERO evidence to support that he will work better with a a false 9 striker than with a conventional striker. I mean he is breaking all kind of records with Sturridge who plays as a proper number 9. Why would suddenly someone assume that he would do even better with a false 9 striker is beyond me.

Anyway this is pointless. I just don't see how you think that his current role is similar to left forward role in a false 9 system. You don't need your left forward in false 9 to be part of the build up, where at Liverpool he plays a big role in starting almost all of their counter attacks from the back, rather than just making runs that others can find.
 

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And Suarez could definitely play the false 9 role. He has the passing ability to link up with midfielders and find others in front off him. Plus dribbling ability to bring the ball forward from the deep as well.
 

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For Uruguay Suarez has been more successful than Cavani playing this role. Surprised you think its the other way around.

I disagree on Muller ahead of Suarez, he could play the role as I said but overall I don't think he would be any better at all. He can't dribble as well and isn't as quick as Suarez which is really the main reason we prioritised him. He has a change of tempo which is IMO on another level to Muller and something which compliments - and in fact was vital - the Totti/Scholes/Deco trio.

I wouldn't say those were the main traits of Suarez at all, he is a good passer - we saw that again at the weekend - but the real danger Suarez brings is just running at defenders rather than his 'passing range'. That is what makes him more dangerous than someone like David Silva - the latter is a much better passer but its irrelevant because that isn't the main threat Suarez brings. You want him picking up the ball with space in front of him that he can dribble into, he'll just attack directly, arguably more directly than anyone in the league and it makes things happen.
I don't think Suarez is quicker than Müller without the ball. If you want the player to run at the defense with the ball, fair enough, that's of course not what you get from Müller.

And what's with David Silva? I was talking about Villa, who actually adds goals from out wide? No one cares about Silva, because then Savicevic is of course the way way better option. I'd say Savicevic is the better option than Suarez if you want someone to run at the defense with the ball anyway. I thought Suarez played to add goals, well I doubt he adds as many goals as David Villa or Müller in that role against that opposition.
 

Theon

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Firstly my main point was about Suarez at his best being included in this system.

It is without question that he has been at his best this season and I am struggling to see how the role he has played at Liverpool this season is similar to one he was being asked to play in that team.
- The point about creativity was not down to his role in your team. Suarez being the one creating chances is a big reason behind him being a top player right now. Taking that role away from does take away from his game. Ofcourse his effectiveness would lessen if you take away that part of his game. Absolutely ridiculous to suggest it would not. His scoring rate has gone down in recent 5-6 games, yet he has been Liverpool's best player.
- There is ZERO evidence to support that he will work better with a a false 9 striker than with a conventional striker. I mean he is breaking all kind of records with Sturridge who plays as a proper number 9. Why would suddenly someone assume that he would do even better with a false 9 striker is beyond me.

Anyway this is pointless. I just don't see how you think that his current role is similar to left forward role in a false 9 system. You don't need your left forward in false 9 to be part of the build up, where at Liverpool he plays a big role in starting almost all of their counter attacks from the back, rather than just making runs that others can find.
This is what I just don't get.

It was first said that it won't get the best out of Suarez to play behind a striker like Sturridge, and his lessening goal threat was cited as evidence. Now you're saying he is suited to a creative role and focusing him more on goalscoring won't get the best out of him!

I agree he has been Liverpool's best player from a deeper, wider role behind Sturridge. He was also Liverpool's best player when he played up top when Sturridge was injured... Or do you disagree? He was scoring well over a goal a game as the leading striker. He has been the best player for Liverpool in both of those roles.

What he is playing here is a combination of both - he's starting from the left (as he has done for Liverpool and Uruguay) but because there is no striker in the team he needs to be more focussed on goalscoring and he has more space to attack from the left than he ever had at Liverpool.
 

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This is what I just don't get.

It was first said that it won't get the best out of Suarez to play behind a striker like Sturridge, and his lessening goal threat was cited as evidence. Now you're saying he is suited to a creative role and focusing him more on goalscoring won't get the best out of him!

I agree he has been Liverpool's best player from a deeper, wider role behind Sturridge. He was also Liverpool's best player when he played up top when Sturridge was injured... Or do you disagree? He was scoring well over a goal a game as the leading striker. He has been the best player for Liverpool in both of those roles.

What he is playing here is a combination of both - he's starting from the left (as he has done for Liverpool and Uruguay) but because there is no striker in the team he needs to be more focussed on goalscoring and he has more space to attack from the left than he ever had at Liverpool.
I never said that playing him behind a number 9 would reduce his effectiveness, who ever did can own up to that.

Your second point covers it why he would be less effective in your system compared to when he played upfront for Liverpool. Even when he was plying with Sturridge, Sterling and Coutinhio were often as high up as him and he still was a big part of their build up play from the left. Rather than Sterling or others finding him up top, it was him creating chances on his own or creating chances for them. Can he play the role he has been asked to in your team? Yes of course. Would he best suited to that role or be at his best in that role? Not in my opinion, he won't
 

Theon

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I don't think Suarez is quicker than Müller without the ball. If you want the player to run at the defense with the ball, fair enough, that's of course not what you get from Müller.

And what's with David Silva? I was talking about Villa, who actually adds goals from out wide? No one cares about Silva, because then Savicevic is of course the way way better option. I'd say Savicevic is the better option than Suarez if you want someone to run at the defense with the ball anyway. I thought Suarez played to add goals, well I doubt he adds as many goals as David Villa or Müller in that role against that opposition.
Any comment on why Cavani is better in this role than Suarez, when it has been the opposite internationally?

Suarez is much quicker than Muller IMO particularly over those first five yards. His top speed isn't huge and probably lower than Sturridge's but his acceleration and agility is amongst the best in the league.

Ah slow down - you've gotten confused with Silva there. You mentioned what you think the threat of Suarez is - his 'creativity' and 'passing range' - and I was using David Silva to demonstrate that isn't the case.

"I wouldn't say those were the main traits of Suarez at all, he is a good passer - we saw that again at the weekend - but the real danger Suarez brings is just running at defenders rather than his 'passing range'. That is what makes him more dangerous than someone like David Silva - the latter is a much better passer but its irrelevant because that isn't the main threat Suarez brings. You want him picking up the ball with space in front of him that he can dribble into, he'll just attack directly, arguably more directly than anyone in the league and it makes things happen."

If passing range and creativity were Suarez's main threats then he would be less dangerous than someone like David Silva, who is better at both those things. Suarez is more dangerous than Silva though because its not his passing which sets him apart, its much more his directness and dribbling when he has the ball.