RedCafe Sheep Draft - Jayvin vs Thisistheone

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?


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Moby

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The aim of this poll is to decide the winner in this fantasy game contested between two sides assembled through the method of drafting. For the purpose of this game, all players would be considered as being at their respective peaks. I invite all posters to go through the formations, tactics and arguments that will follow in the thread and kindly leave their vote. Thanks.


Jayvin's Tactics
Overall:

The defence has a blend of brains, brawn and pace. The technically excellent Hierro with the perfect partner in the fast, athletic Thuram. Both easily in the top 10 defenders of the 90s. Evra is quick and skillful while Neville is intelligent and defensively robust.

In midfield there is again a nice balance, with plenty of options in both defence and attack. The unrivaled defensive presence of Deschamps, coupled with the box to box energy of Baraja, the tactical intelligence and discipline of Seedorf and the sublime technique and outrageous skill of Zvonimir Boban.

Up front is the fearsome attacking duo of Ibrahimovic and Shearer, both physically imposing, excellent finishers from any angle or distance, from either foot or head. They will compliment each other well with Ibra able to drop deeper and help to link the play, while Shearer will act as the focal point of the attack and arch-poacher in the box.

The team will be set up to play in a 4-3-3/4-4-2 diamond formation similar to Real Madrid's 1998 CL winning side. With Deschamps in the holding role, Seedorf playing his versatile LCM position, supporting the defensive and attacking phases when required. Ruben Baraja slots perfectly into Christian Karembeau's box to box role on the right, and depending on the opposition has the potential to strike up a great combination with Gary Neville when he bursts forward. Zvonimir Boban takes over Rauls #10 position and up front Predrag Mijatovic and Morientes are vastly improved upon with Ibrahimovic and Shearer.

Every player fits their position and role to a tee and the side strikes the perfect balance between defence and attack.

WHY I WILL WIN:

- Lack of workrate in TITOs front 3, putting enormous pressure on De Rossi and the fullback duo.

- Deco/Scholes v Boban/Seedorf: Scholes/Deco and Boban are all able to play further forward or drop deeper, though in the case of TITOs side I can see Scholes/Deco further forward would getting in the way of Totti/Suarez. Seedorf is a more versatile, robust player than Deco. Deco/Scholes will both want to be playmakers and as neither has the side built around them, they will be far less effective.

- Lack of defensive cover in TITOs side. If De Rossi tracks Boban, the forward runs of Baraja/Seedorf will need to be covered by his fullbacks, allowing my midfielders to release Evra/Neville on the overlap. Conversely, on my side Baraja and Seedorf are more than capable of pressuring Scholes and Deco, particularly Baraja who will give Scholes no time or space whatsoever.

- Savicevic and Suarez will both cut inside more often than not, meaning Hierro and Thuram can take care of them while Deschamps covers Totti, leaving my fullbacks to easily track the runs of Di Livio/Pessotto and effectively render TITOs attack impotent.


PLAYER PROFILES

Team Jayvin


Vs

Team Thisistheone



Starting formation, changed at a lead of 7-6

Thisistheone's tactics
Formation & how the side will operate

Based on the 2007 Roma side which played a 433 - with el capitano Francesco Totti as the false 9 and creative fulcrum of the team.

The idea of the inside forwards making diagonal runs, whilst the fullbacks overlap on the outside is fantastic - impossible to defend against when executed correctly.

Totti will keep picking it up into feet, from neat and tidy distribution from Scholes, Deco, De Rossi, take one touch and spin, then sweep a pass out to one of the 4 runners – Suarez, Pessotto, Savicevic, Di Livio. (This is also not including any runs made from midfield. Scholes as everyone knows, scored goals.)


The whole side is built around Totti and is aimed at getting the most out of this extraordinary talent. Suarez is a perfect foil next to him. Cutting in from the left he offers pace, work rate and goals.


The team requires good work rate in order to accomadate the duo of Totti and Savicevic. This is provided by proven workaholics such as Suarez, Deco, De Rossi & Di Livio.


The foundations of the side are built on the tried and tested, highly successful Juventus back 5 of the mid 1990’s. Peruzzi, Pessotto, Montero, Ferrara and Di Livio won everything together. At one time forming the best defence in European football. During the mid 90’s Juventus reached 3 consecutive Champions League finals. An incredible achievement.


With the chemistry and proven ability to win , this team will be extremely difficult to score against.


Paul Scholes in midfield brings control to the side, as well as a big goal threat. Our Paul was quite simply a fabulous footballer. And the current Utd side miss him terribly.


Deco brings industry, tackling, and technical ability. A hard working, tenacious all-rounder in his prime, he suits Scholes very well. Offering endless energy and coverage of the pitch.


De Rossi brings the Roma connection to the side with Totti. But also that fight, drive and spirit. An excellent passer in his own right, he will neatly link defence and midfield.


Of course with either Di Livio or Pessotto getting forward at different times, De Rossi has the tactical nous to drop in and cover, holding off the threat of the counter-attack, keeping the shape at the back. Ferrara was capable of playing right back, Montero also was capable at left back. De Rossi has played such a role before with Roma and Italy.


The whole side is bursting with winners. Experienced and seasoned pro’s who have the “know how” required to win. One thing is certain, there will not be a lack of fight in this side.




Breaking down the in-game battles:

· Dejan Savicevic was incredibly quick and a superb dribbler. He will cause Evra all sorts of problems, whether running directly at him or cutting inside between him and Hierro.

· Suarez like-wise will cause Neville a lot of headaches. Poor Gary got turned inside out at times when up against quick dribblers. McManaman always seemed to rip him apart. So I fully expect Suarez to get some joy here. When Luis cuts inside, Thuram will be there to cover, leaving space in the middle for Totti, or a late Scholes run.

· With Totti playing a false 9 he has a licence to drop deep and connect midfield with attack.

· There is a lack of width in Jayvin’s side. Shearer and Zlatan are similar forwards in the sense that neither will pull out wide but rather stay central and expect delivery from wide areas. This isn’t going to happen here and actually plays into my hands quite well with Pessotto and Di Livio going forward themselves to attack.

· There is a lack of pace in his side, in general. I believe with exceptional passers like Totti and Scholes, the pacey forwards can get in behind their back line.

· Deco, De Rossi and Scholes are all excellent on the ball. With Totti helping, there should be a solid control of possession and the tempo of the game.

PLAYER PROFILES
 
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Jayvin

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I can see Scholes and Deco clashing a bit as both will want to be the main playmaker. Xavi couldn't fully express himself at Barca until Deco left and I see a similar thing happening with Scholes here.

Also, TITO's midfield looks a bit lightweight defensively. If De Rossi is tracking Boban, who is taking care of Seedorf and the rampaging forward runs of Baraja? Both his central defenders will be tied up with Ibra/Shearer. I can see a lot of 3v2 situations arising...
 

Thisistheone

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Lightweight? Not with De Rossi in there. But all three were tough and loved a tackle. I'd actually argue they're a meaner set than your guys. Seedorf and Boban won't get stuck in as much so it's down to Baraja and Deschamps.

But the main issue is control and Scholes, Deco, De Rossi with Totti dropping will ensure I can set the pace of the game and hold more possession.
 

Thisistheone

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Think you have a problem with the diamond set up Jay and the players opperating it. The midfield won't offer width, the strikers won't offer width. Shearer and Zlatan will stay central and expect service from wide. Your full backs have hell of a task therefore. Dealing with Suarez and Savicevic while bombing forward and providing your strikers?
 

Thisistheone

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Just checking, you two didn't have any assistants right?
No.

Editting this Aldo. Theon has given me some advice at different points in the draft so is not voting in this. Sorry for any confusion.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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Initial thoughts at first glance:

1) Tito's defensive arrows don't make sense. With those 2 forwards lurking around, if they have attacking licence, it will be disaster.
2) With his forward 3 Tito will score more from open play, but on the counter Jayvin has equal opportunity even up.
 

antohan

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Very nice, guys. Two very well constructed sides which should get the best out of the key players.

Shit, there I was pleased with my draft efforts...
 

Gio

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Very nice, guys. Two very well constructed sides which should get the best out of the key players.

Shit, there I was pleased with my draft efforts...
Yeah that's my first impression: coherent sides.
 

Jayvin

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A few points/arguments against points TITO has made:

- The lack of width in my side is intentional, not to mention TITOs side also lacks width given Suarez isn't a winger and Savicevic will cut inside at every opportunity. The real issue here is that my central midfield not only has more bodies, but is physically superior and defensively stronger in every aspect.

- TITOs side lacks pace far more than my side does. Evra, Thuram, Baraja were all reasonably quick whereas TITO's defense is glacially slow, as is his midfield.

- Deco, Scholes and De Rossi are indeed excellent on the ball, but in my opinion Seedorf/Boban/Deschamps are better, not to mention my midfield is built around getting the most out of Boban whereas TITO has shoehorned both Deco and Scholes in - with limited defensive support I might add.

- Due to the lack of real wingers, for the most part I see the fullbacks canceling each other out, although Nevilles crossing from deeper positions will be an asset with two strikers so outstanding in the air.
 

antohan

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Initial thoughts at first glance:

1) Tito's defensive arrows don't make sense. With those 2 forwards lurking around, if they have attacking licence, it will be disaster.
2) With his forward 3 Tito will score more from open play, but on the counter Jayvin has equal opportunity even up.
I don't agree with that really. I'd be far more concerned about Neville and Evra, who absolutely HAVE to be pushing forward to provide width and crosses. The central pair of Montero and Ferrara were excellent man-markers and adept as defensive fullbacks. The potentially key defensive weakness out there is Hierro covering Evra.

That said, in midfield Tito does indeed look a bit light in comparison, but if that front 5 get into full flow they do indeed present more options to score from open play.
 

Gio

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Both set-ups are quite narrow. I think Jayvin's a bit stronger man-for-man but my only concerns are that there is not a load of width or pace to stretch the play. I like TITO's front five, there would be a lot of synergy there.
 

Thisistheone

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Initial thoughts at first glance:

1) Tito's defensive arrows don't make sense. With those 2 forwards lurking around, if they have attacking licence, it will be disaster.
2) With his forward 3 Tito will score more from open play, but on the counter Jayvin has equal opportunity even up.
Disagree mate. My full backs are so experienced at the highest level they will know when to go and when to stay. And De Rossi can always drop in to help against counters. Zlatan and Shearer will stay central.

Jayvin's full backs on the other hand are in real trouble and have such a big task.
 

Jayvin

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Think you have a problem with the diamond set up Jay and the players opperating it. The midfield won't offer width, the strikers won't offer width. Shearer and Zlatan will stay central and expect service from wide. Your full backs have hell of a task therefore. Dealing with Suarez and Savicevic while bombing forward and providing your strikers?
Seedorf has played on the left, Baraja has played on the right, Boban has played both sides - all to great effect (Seedorf and Boban in winning CL final sides). Suarez and Savicevic will cut in more often than not and will therefore be taken care of by Hierro/Thuram, while Deschamps will cover Totti.

Both your CBs each have to deal with imposing strikers, while De Rossi is on Boban. So I'd say it's YOUR fullbacks who will have the hard task tracking the forward runs of Seedorf and Baraja, one mistake and the ball is flicked wide to the onrushing Evra/Neville who have two towering strikers to aim crosses at.

Boban has a free role, by the way. So he can pop up anywhere and drag players out of position, which is perfect for a player like Shearer who excelled at moving into space.
 

Jayvin

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Lightweight? Not with De Rossi in there. But all three were tough and loved a tackle. I'd actually argue they're a meaner set than your guys. Seedorf and Boban won't get stuck in as much so it's down to Baraja and Deschamps.

But the main issue is control and Scholes, Deco, De Rossi with Totti dropping will ensure I can set the pace of the game and hold more possession.
Boban was one of toughest, most hard working attacking midfielders I've ever seen. Seedorf is a physical beast and loved a good scrap in midfield, likewise with Baraja. Then you have the ultimate defensive midfielder in Deschamps.

Compared to that, your midfield is indeed lightweight.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I don't agree with that really. I'd be far more concerned about Neville and Evra, who absolutely HAVE to be pushing forward to provide width and crosses. The central pair of Montero and Ferrara were excellent man-markers and adept as defensive fullbacks. The potentially key defensive weakness out there is Hierro covering Evra.

That said, in midfield Tito does indeed look a bit light in comparison, but if that front 5 get into full flow they do indeed present more options to score from open play.
Scholes and Deco are CM's, but they shade to attacking and I still think Deco was better as AM than as a proper CM. When in possession, it gives great advantage, but if they lose possession, Jayvin's counter through the middle will be easier, esp as midfield battle is 4vs3 favouring Jayvin. Dec//Scholes will have to pass through Baraja/Seedorf & Deschamps to participate in attack.

Yes, I also agree that Tito will definitely score, but since both teams are playing 2 CB's against 2 attackers, the advantage is even.

Edit: Scholes/Keane was a perfect combo. Scholes/Deco, not that convincing, imho!
 

Jayvin

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I don't agree with that really. I'd be far more concerned about Neville and Evra, who absolutely HAVE to be pushing forward to provide width and crosses. The central pair of Montero and Ferrara were excellent man-markers and adept as defensive fullbacks. The potentially key defensive weakness out there is Hierro covering Evra.

That said, in midfield Tito does indeed look a bit light in comparison, but if that front 5 get into full flow they do indeed present more options to score from open play.
Hierro won't have to cover for Evra much because Savicevic will be cutting in at pretty much every opportunity. Likewise with Suarez/Neville. Montero and Ferrara being adept at defensive fullbacks is completely irrelevant because Ibra and Shearer will generally stay around the box and they simply CANNOT afford to leave them alone.
 

Thisistheone

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Scholes and Deco are CM's, but they shade to attacking and I still think Deco was better as AM than as a proper CM. When in possession, it gives great advantage, but if they lose possession, Jayvin's counter through the middle will be easier, esp as midfield battle is 4vs3 favouring Jayvin. Dec//Scholes will have to pass through Baraja/Seedorf & Deschamps to participate in attack.

Yes, I also agree that Tito will definitely score, but since both teams are playing 2 CB's against 2 attackers, the advantage is even.
Deco came 2nd in the balon d'or playing CM. He is better there than as AM. This 3 man midfield is exactly the set-up he thrived in at Barca.

Keane Scholes was a 2 man midfield mate. Scholes Deco have De Rossi behind them. Different set up.
 
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Thisistheone

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Boban was one of toughest, most hard working attacking midfielders I've ever seen. Seedorf is a physical beast and loved a good scrap in midfield, likewise with Baraja. Then you have the ultimate defensive midfielder in Deschamps.

Compared to that, your midfield is indeed lightweight.
Disagree. There is far more fight in my midfield. De Rossi, Scholes and Deco have more yellow cards than your midfield. They always got stuck in. Not to mention my midfielders are superior to yours. Scholes is the best midfielder on the park, closely followed by Deco.

And yes, your full backs are your only real source of width to supply the strikers and they just won't be able to do that and contain my attack. It's a real problem for you.
 

Gio

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If midfield turns into a physical battle, Jayvin's got that one sown up IMO.
 

Thisistheone

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Also it's important to note Jay's defence is basically thrown together while my back 5 is the Juventus back line that was the best side in Europe during the mid to late 90's. That is an advantage without question.

My defence is a well oiled machine, proven to work. Jay's is a mixed bag.
 

Thisistheone

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If midfield turns into a physical battle, Jayvin's got that one sown up IMO.
It doesn't have to be a physical battle, but if tackles did start flying in, my boys can look after themselves. I expect the technique of Scholes, De Rossi and Deco to control things.
 
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Jayvin

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Disagree. There is far more fight in my midfield. De Rossi, Scholes and Deco have more yellow cards than your midfield. They always got stuck in. Not to mention my midfielders are superior to yours. Scholes is the best midfielder on the park, closely followed by Deco.

And yes, your full backs are your only real source of width to supply the strikers and they just won't be able to do that and contain my attack. It's a real problem for you.
As I've already stated, Boban can move wide (he has a free role), Seedorf and Baraja are both more than capable of playing wide to great effect.

Not sure how you come up with "My midfielders are superior to yours" either. I think you would struggle to find anyone who would claim De Rossi is a superior defensive midfielder to Deschamps. Scholes/Seedorf and Boban/Deco are close and come down to personal preference. The main differerence in my mind is my midfield strikes a perfect balance between defence and attack, whereas yours is heavily attack oriented.
 

Stobzilla

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My one problem with Jayvin's line up is that it doesn't make the most of Alan Shearer, there is only one obvious crossing outlet in Gary Neville to get balls into him, it wasn't his entire game but he was extremely good at finishing anything where confusion was created in the 18 yard box, can't see him making many pacy runs in behind which then stretches the gap between defence and midfield and giving Ibra room to work in.
 

Theon

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Scholes and Deco are CM's, but they shade to attacking and I still think Deco was better as AM than as a proper CM.

Edit: Scholes/Keane was a perfect combo. Scholes/Deco, not that convincing, imho!
Except it isn't a midfield of Scholes and Deco? Looks to me like its a midfield three with De Rossi/Scholes/Deco - there is nothing at all wrong with that.

Deco played his best football in a midfield three at Barcelona, not as an attacking midfielder or number 10 - and he certainly got stuck in, his work rate was top notch. Seems to be a bit of a myth that Deco was a stereotypical attacking midfielder when he wasn't like that at all.

Deco lazy?! He covered plenty of ground and wasn't afraid to throw a tackle in. There's a reason he got 42 yellows in just 4 seasons at Barca. He'd still slot right into this hard-working Barca midfield.
 

Thisistheone

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My one problem with Jayvin's line up is that it doesn't make the most of Alan Shearer, there is only one obvious crossing outlet in Gary Neville to get balls into him, it wasn't his entire game but he was extremely good at finishing anything where confusion was created in the 18 yard box, can't see him making many pacy runs in behind which then stretches the gap between defence and midfield and giving Ibra room to work in.
True. You take away delivery from wide positions and you severley limit Shearer's goal threat. He scored tons of headers.
 

Mr Anderson

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Jayvin sneaks it for me. I like his defence and midfield. Up front is where it can fall, what way do Zlatan and Shearer play for you? Both historically play with their backs to goal iirc. So is it a proper 2 up top side by side?
 

Jayvin

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The width thing is an interesting one by the way, I've already explained that Boban has a free role and was more than capable of doing a job on the flanks, or drifting where he pleases. I'm more interested in how TITOs 'width' will work.

If Suarez and Savicevic are providing genuine width and not cutting in, then Neville and Evra can cover them while Baraja/Seedorf track Pessotto/Di Livio. That leaves Totti alone in the centre against Hierro and Thuram, giving me a spare man (along with Didier FREAKING Deschamps) to cover the late runs of Scholes/Deco, which leaves TITO's attack pretty impotent.

If Suarez and Savicevic cut in at every opportunity (which they will, given they aren't really wingers), then Hierro and Thuram cover them while Deschamps takes care of Totti. Seedorf/Baraja can take care of Scholes/Deco in midfield, leaving the fullbacks to cancel each other out, although Nevilles crossing from deeper positions will be an asset with two strikers so outstanding in the air. Once again, TITO's attack seems pretty impotent.
 

Jayvin

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Jayvin sneaks it for me. I like his defence and midfield. Up front is where it can fall, what way do Zlatan and Shearer play for you? Both historically play with their backs to goal iirc. So is it a proper 2 up top side by side?
Pretty much. With two up top at all times keeping Montero/Ferrara occupied, and TITO's sole defensive presence in midfield dealing with Boban, my midfielders can continually create 3v2 situations against TITO's defence. Unless Pessotto/Di Livio tuck in to help, which leaves Evra/Neville free to bomb forward.
 

Thisistheone

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Jay mate, no offense but you're really over-rating your midfield.


Scholes and Seedorf similar in quality?! No. Just no.

Deco isn't competing with Boban either, if your comparing midfielders the last one is Baraja. Deco is superior.

Boban would be competing with Totti.
 

Thisistheone

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I really think there is too much in attack for me not to out score Jayvin. The Juventus back 5 will keep things tight.
 

antohan

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Disagree. There is far more fight in my midfield. De Rossi, Scholes and Deco have more yellow cards than your midfield. They always got stuck in.
They did get stuck in, no one disputes that. The yellows though... more an indication of not being that good at getting the ball back without a foul, if you ask me. Now think about the free kicks... Not a great point, really.

The back five is rock solid though. Juve never quite played those exact five (particularly Di Livio at RB) but there's no question it will be well-oiled and have a great understanding, and de Rossi protecting them is mint.

Jayvin's diamond is very well constructed though, all four are great fits to execute it brilliantly.

It's bizarre but it may all boil down to which of the two fullback pairs executes their job best. The advantage yours have is they don't really need to have a smashing game, but his do.
 

Thisistheone

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Not sure how you come up with "My midfielders are superior to yours" either. I think you would struggle to find anyone who would claim De Rossi is a superior defensive midfielder to Deschamps. Scholes/Seedorf and Boban/Deco are close and come down to personal preference. The main differerence in my mind is my midfield strikes a perfect balance between defence and attack, whereas yours is heavily attack oriented.
This is so wrong imo.

Scholes and Seedorf similar? Deco and Baraja similar? Not a chance.

Sorry but you have nothing in your midfield that matches a Paul Scholes.
 

Jayvin

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I really think the lack of work rate in TITOs front 3 will cause problems, here's a quote from Fabio Capello about Savicevic:

“Without question, Savicevic is the player with whom I had the most rows. He hardly trained, he hardly worked. And, when he was on the pitch, everybody else had to work twice as hard to make up for him…”

Sure, it worked out at Milan because he had the likes of Albertini, Boban, Rjikaard and Desailly doing the donkey work for him. Deco and Scholes will no doubt get 'stuck in', but compared to the workrate and defensive presence of that 4 from Milan, they absolutely pale in comparision.
 

Jayvin

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This is so wrong imo.

Scholes and Seedorf similar? Deco and Baraja similar? Not a chance.

Sorry but you have nothing in your midfield that matches a Paul Scholes.
You don't remember Seedorf destroying Man Utd in the CL? Personally I prefer Scholes but it's a close run thing, I'm sure if you asked many neutrals they would rate Seedorf just as high, if not higher. I never compared Deco and Baraja, different kinds of players. I rate Boban higher than Deco though.