Yep it's 100% Terrys fault. You could get away with Carvalho or Cole on their own, but once lionman's involved all bets are off. People definately forget what a good centrehalf Gallas was too.
Redcafe Sheep Draft QF1 - Edgar Allan Pillow vs VivaJanuzaj
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Drogba is rated fine, he was excellent and I think everyone recognises that.
Carvalho is also judged in quite a common/typical/normal way on the Caf, in the sense that he is rated as high here as he is normally. The problem with Carvalho is that he is just an underrated footballer - not due to him being a Chelsea player and this being a United forum, it is just the common view of him. He was far better than Terry, for instance.
For Viva Terry is probably the one causing problems and I have no issue with that, he is generally overrated IMO, particularly by the English press. As a 'box defender' there is no doubt he's top class, but if you remove him from that comfort zone it starts to fall apart. It's why he doesn't replicate that Chelsea form for England and why the high line under Villas Boas made him look a liability at times.
Stick Terry deep with someone like Makelele in front of him and he'll knock the ball clear all day, he'll mark tight, he'll win the ball in the air - take him out this system and starts to unravel IMO.
Carvalho is also judged in quite a common/typical/normal way on the Caf, in the sense that he is rated as high here as he is normally. The problem with Carvalho is that he is just an underrated footballer - not due to him being a Chelsea player and this being a United forum, it is just the common view of him. He was far better than Terry, for instance.
For Viva Terry is probably the one causing problems and I have no issue with that, he is generally overrated IMO, particularly by the English press. As a 'box defender' there is no doubt he's top class, but if you remove him from that comfort zone it starts to fall apart. It's why he doesn't replicate that Chelsea form for England and why the high line under Villas Boas made him look a liability at times.
Stick Terry deep with someone like Makelele in front of him and he'll knock the ball clear all day, he'll mark tight, he'll win the ball in the air - take him out this system and starts to unravel IMO.
I think older players in general are easier to sale, like i said not because they are necessarily better but just to do with the romanticism associated with them.
I get why Lampard, Terry and Carvalho are underrated but surely people remember how great Drogba was at his peak? I mean Lampard and Terry always had certain flaws but Drogba was nearly unplayable at his best. Plus people seemed to like him more as the years went on, I remember a fair bit of warmth towards him when he left Chelsea.While also comfortably boring the shit out of everyone.
Essien and Makelele have gotten due credit IMO. Not together perhaps but otherwise both are rated well. Lampard, Terry, Drogba, Carvalho are just terrible to have.
I think it is Terry that is underrated here, as always.
I remember in a premier league draft one time i had Gallas, Gerrard, Ballack, Drogba and Tevez all in the same team. Really solid lineup i thought, would get the job done surely. Everyone hated it 
Really, you don't think Carvalho was the better defender?
Not by a significant margin, no.
I think Gerrard is particularly underrated on the Caf.
Would love to know how Terry is rated across Europe, and how his reputation would compare to say Rio Ferdinand. His individual honours really are impressive.
- PFA Player of the Year: 2004–05
- PFA Team of the Year: 2003–04, 2004–05, 2005–06
- FIFA World Cup Team of the Tournament: 2006
- FIFPro World XI: 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009
- ESM Team of the Year: 2004–05, 2008–09, 2009–10
- UEFA Club Football Awards Best Defender: 2005, 2008, 2009
- UEFA Team of the Year: 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009
- Chelsea Player of the Year: 2001, 2006
I remember in a premier league draft one time i had Gallas, Gerrard, Ballack, Drogba and Tevez all in the same team. Really solid lineup i thought, would get the job done surely. Everyone hated it
All it missed was a bit of Heinze, Ince and Keown.Ramos has those accolades himself but is considered (unfairly IMO) a bit of a joke by many. You had to drop him from your side because of how he is rated.
La Liga Best Defender: 2012, 2013
ESM Team of the year: 2007–08, 2011–12
FIFA/FIFPro World XI: 2008, 2011, 2012, 2013
UEFA Team of the Year: 2008, 2012, 2013
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 2010
UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament: 2012
Like others have said, part of some great defensive setups but not a great (still very good) defender. Thing with someone like Rio was how complete he was. He had pace, reading of the game, great on the ball, and not a mug physically either. Perhaps the most complete CB after Nesta and Thuram. And Thiago Silva from the current generation.
@Annahnomoss about fullbacks.... They are busy defending, so not much roaming forward. Again against a player of Baggio calibre, you make your choice on how effective this will . My only request is for you to vote based on the managers tactics.He needs to operate wide because unless he does you will have no one wide with Amoros & Branco being shut by Nedved & Sanchez, allowing Lahm and Cole to tuck in the middle. If he doesn't it makes the middle of the park will look like this:
That's 10-11(!!!) players in the middle of the park!! You're players won't have any room to create anything!
And if required, please continue commenting. Don't think you have any agenda against me and all that! Ofc I like to win it, but it's a game after all!
The shame with Gallas is he was actually brilliant and most at the time thought Arsenal got a cracking deal. He even had some kudos for that mental threat of scoring own goals unless sold
But he'll never get over this. Never.
The problem with Premiership players is we know the good, the bad and the ugly with them. One thing that goes to show it is how the likes of Mendieta, Weah and others have lowered their stock purely for showing up in England past their peak.
I don't really get that but no, he gets zero credit. I had him down as an option that would have suited my side but only as a last resort purely for that reason. People seem to want speedy midgets that can do a lot of interchanging, just being a proper centreforward leading the line is boring as feck.
The funny thing is he was worried of coming across as pro-Viva, while I was arguing with him despite thinking Viva would win it overall.
It's nothing really, you sometimes just get embroiled in discussing a specific aspect of the game. I don't think Viva has a 2v1 all game long on the flanks, nor do I think he has both fullbacks pinned back and tucking in all game. I think he wins it because he can strike a good balance between both and have a better control of the game, not because either of these extreme views would actually happen.
That's why I might not rate some of EAP's & Brwned's players as highly as others.. I don't rate Cashley below Amoros(apart from the fact Amoros could play both sides), I surely don't rate him under Branco, not to mention Lahm that I rate higher than both, and I rate Modric higher than most people although he still has a long way to go with his career, but because he's not a "past player" people seem to discard he's incredible abilities. Doesn't matter now, I'll keep on playing and keep on picking the players I like.
About the Chelsea players, I had Drogba a couple of drafts ago at the newbies and no one rated him! People even talked shit about his aerial ability.. That was unbelievable how far from the truth people will go to simply win a draft game. The guy was simply amazing and I will never forget how scared I used to be before our matches against Chelsea solely because of Didier...
Plus he's such a great human that has to count for something for his advantage
..
Anyway I'm wrapping it up because I won't be here for several hours now and it takes a real miracle for me to get a chance here and I'll leave you with a small change @AldoPaine18 .. Modric replaces Ince to go all out attack.. Doesn't really matter just wanted to go the with the players I really like
Brwned & EAP congratulations, you're team is great and I knew it would be a tough match just wasn't expecting this big margined defeat. But you both formed a great team and argued for it well and with no trash talk and stuff like that and that's the important part, I hate it when people don't make an effort in the match thread.
Will see you all in the next draft which I'll surely take part as well no matter which kind we'll choose.
About the Chelsea players, I had Drogba a couple of drafts ago at the newbies and no one rated him! People even talked shit about his aerial ability.. That was unbelievable how far from the truth people will go to simply win a draft game. The guy was simply amazing and I will never forget how scared I used to be before our matches against Chelsea solely because of Didier...
Plus he's such a great human that has to count for something for his advantage
..Anyway I'm wrapping it up because I won't be here for several hours now and it takes a real miracle for me to get a chance here and I'll leave you with a small change @AldoPaine18 .. Modric replaces Ince to go all out attack
.. Doesn't really matter just wanted to go the with the players I really like
Brwned & EAP congratulations, you're team is great and I knew it would be a tough match just wasn't expecting this big margined defeat. But you both formed a great team and argued for it well and with no trash talk and stuff like that and that's the important part, I hate it when people don't make an effort in the match thread.
Will see you all in the next draft which I'll surely take part as well no matter which kind we'll choose.
Am I alone in thinking Modric would have a great game here?
Yeah crazy isn't it. I get that they shouldn't be rated on a par with the top defenders like Maldini or Nesta, but they're still much better players than they're given credit for. Pique and Puyol are also in that category. I think people have it in their heads that they're overrated and only perform well because of the quality of some of their teammates, and then we end up going too far the other way and underrating them.
He's been the rock behind Chelsea's defence for a long long time. Was it 15 goals or something they conceded in a whole season under Mourinho? Chelsea have always during this time looked more vulnerable without him in the side, and i definately don't think he gets enough credit. He should probably be remembered at the very least as good a defender as Vidic.
Agree that Rio is the more complete player and is the best defender i have ever watched live. Not sure how much of that is bias however, and i think many of my neutral friends would see not that much between them.
On Thiago Silva, i think the hype may be getting slightly out of hand. He's talked about like some sort of god on here. Will be interesting to see him at the business end of the Champions League this season and the World Cup in the summer.
I was reading your mind Viva The shame with Gallas is he was actually brilliant and most at the time thought Arsenal got a cracking deal. He even had some kudos for that mental threat of scoring own goals unless sold
But he'll never get over this. Never.
That was ridiculous wasn't it, but yeah, brilliant defender at Chelsea, and from what i remember had nearly as good a partnership with Terry as Carvalho did. I just googled him there to see if he's still playing or if he'd retired. Had no idea he's playing in Oz with Perth Glory!
Same with Torres, you'd have thought he would have been a great option aswell but not a chance could you have picked him. Proven ability at leading the line on his own for all these sides with 1 up top, and world class peak form.
Love the way he just stopped after it.Well, the margin is quite surprising to us as well. Any team at this stage qould be difficult to handle and I did not expect this tbf. I really liked your offence there and as Brwned mentioned before, if we get the opportunity our pirst pick might as well be Nedved. Anyways good game!
Yup, once you started arguing against Annah, I realized I lost both your votesThe funny thing is he was worried of coming across as pro-Viva, while I was arguing with him despite thinking Viva would win it overall.
To be frank, the arguements were not quite in line with what I expected. Just to understand the thought process here, I've taken a recent examples:
Italy in Euro 2012 semi finals fielded a diamond and faced a Germany fielding 4-2-3-1 with Ozil-Reus-Podolski + Klose and won.
------Montolivo-----
-De Rossi---Marchisio
---------Pirlo------------
Milan in CL finals 2002 fielded a similar diamond against a 4-4-2 fielding Juventus and won (on penalties). The fact is that this was defensively stable to get a 0-0 draw.
-----Rui Costa--------
Gattuso---Seedorf--
--------Pirlo------------
Clearly shows diamond against teams with better width is not a drawback, just differnt strategy. Don't actually get the arguement on full backs causing me to lose this!
But in this game, I think it will definitely be taken for granted on how Laudrup would have owned Alonso (and even Pirlo, had I got him there) and dominated the area.
Infact I'm getting the same feedback with Sammer (who defensively is miles ahead of Pirlo/Alonso) in there, which is bewildering! This formation with Gattuso/De Rossi shielding Pirlo worked well, so why do people here think iSammer/Alono will not be sufficient against Laudrup and Co?
----------Fabregas----------
--Alonso---------Xavi------
------------Busquets----------
What I effectively have here is a
---------Rui Costa-------
---Ballack-------Alonso---
---------Sammer-----------
Apart from the Xavi vs Ballack arguement, why is mine so inferior?
Euro 2012 Semi Final: Italy vs Germany.
Italy in Euro 2012 semi finals fielded a diamond and faced a Germany fielding 4-2-3-1 with Ozil-Reus-Podolski + Klose and won.
------Montolivo-----
-De Rossi---Marchisio
---------Pirlo------------
Milan in CL finals 2002 fielded a similar diamond against a 4-4-2 fielding Juventus and won (on penalties). The fact is that this was defensively stable to get a 0-0 draw.
-----Rui Costa--------
Gattuso---Seedorf--
--------Pirlo------------
Clearly shows diamond against teams with better width is not a drawback, just differnt strategy. Don't actually get the arguement on full backs causing me to lose this!
But in this game, I think it will definitely be taken for granted on how Laudrup would have owned Alonso (and even Pirlo, had I got him there) and dominated the area.
Infact I'm getting the same feedback with Sammer (who defensively is miles ahead of Pirlo/Alonso) in there, which is bewildering! This formation with Gattuso/De Rossi shielding Pirlo worked well, so why do people here think iSammer/Alono will not be sufficient against Laudrup and Co?
Euro 2012 Final: Italy vs Spain.
----------Fabregas----------
--Alonso---------Xavi------
------------Busquets----------
What I effectively have here is a
---------Rui Costa-------
---Ballack-------Alonso---
---------Sammer-----------
Apart from the Xavi vs Ballack arguement, why is mine so inferior?
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Yeah that was an insane record but I don't buy this "he's been the rock behind all that" argument. It was a terribly negative defensive setup that not only had a back 4 protected by Makelele and Essien, but their mindset was to defend and defend only. They played deep and once took the lead only defended. That surely helps in making the defense look a lot better. In that sort of a setup, Terry is great, but that is something top teams go for very rarely. If you want a defender to defend for his life, throw his body around and all, that's Terry's game but change that tactically or personnel wise and he doesn't look the same.
Which is why Carvalho was so important, who I have always rated as the better one out of the two. He covered for Terry endless times.
I don't have much of an issue if he's remembered as good as Vidic, that's probably fair. But Vidic himself doesn't come up that highly when CBs are being ranked because of the same issue, that he had certain strengths and needed players to cover for his weaknesses. That's not really a bad thing because very few players are really complete, but with Terry I have seen that as a bigger issue.
Yeah Rio wouldn't be rated as highly as he is here, which is normal. And while we are biased we have also seen him day in day out to know his career better than others. I'm quite certain that neutrals would almost always pick Rio ahead of Terry or Vidic.
As for Thiago Silva, a lot of that hype is due to the fact that he doesn't have anyone to rival him at the moment. He's been the best defender in the world for a while and honestly for me he does look like he belongs in the bracket of Nestas and Thurams. Not only because he's really complete and doesn't really have a clear weakness but the way he can improve a defense is enormous. And the way he takes responsibility to carry a defense on his own is again wonderful. He has been forced to do that with Brazil and PSG, and surely with Milan as well. A CB that covered for Andre fckin Santos and still kept the other team out has my utmost respect.
That Spain side is nothing like yours. The "diamond" is just a shape in that formation which was effectively very much a tiki-taka 4-6-0.
I would compare that to the Milan one, and leave aside the obvious factor of Sammer not being Pirlo. It's a different role and kind of influence on the game, clearly.
I don't particularly like the central pair though. I prefer those in the centre to be all-rounders who can put a shift both in defensive and attacking phases and, particularly, I like them to be competent pushing out to the flanks. The qualities of the central pair make a big difference when it comes to whether the team fielding a diamond ends up being too narrow or not. It isn't just about the fullbacks but also what influence the CMs can have in supporting them both in attacking and defensive phases.
I'm not too keen on your pair as far as that is concerned.
Yep, Drogba is really underrated. Even the people who rate him reduce him to a decent player who would only perform if he's up against CBs who aren't good in the air. The man was a juggernaut and as big a big game player as it can be. Possibly it's the fact that he wasn't as consistent over his careers as others hurts him but still, very few matched him when it comes to leading a line on his own and a sureshot matchwinner in top games.About the Chelsea players, I had Drogba a couple of drafts ago at the newbies and no one rated him! People even talked shit about his aerial ability.. That was unbelievable how far from the truth people will go to simply win a draft game. The guy was simply amazing and I will never forget how scared I used to be before our matches against Chelsea solely because of Didier...
Plus he's such a great human that has to count for something for his advantage
And yeah I'm also a big fan of his for his off the field personality. I once listened to his interview where he said that he was back in Côte d'Ivoire and there was a big dispute going on between the military (I guess) and some other group. Since football is so big over there he and other NT players are treated like Gods, him even more than others, and all of them went to the group that was the cause of the violence and all of them knelt down in front of them pleading for forgiveness and peace. Thankfully they listened and everything was better after that. Really a gem of a man.
So if I play
---------Rui Costa-------
---Ballack-------Sammer---
---------Alonso-----------
will it be more comparable? Sammer to Seedorf can be considered. Alonso as a playmaker is not in the same class as Pirlo, but is no slouch there either.
My point being the overrating of Laurup. Players like that can never be 'stopped', but Sammer there will definitely cause problems. On top you have excellant CB's and Alonso hovering there who will intercept passes and be a nuisance to the opposition. Despite all this, you think he can score to snatch a win?
Not really, no. It would be crazy to move Sammer away from his best role, it has an impact on your wingbacks as well, etc. I'm not suggesting you try fully replicate what Milan had, but I would look into the central pair being less, errr, "central". Nedved where Ballack is, for instance
You would most likely need the other to be a Gattuso workhorse type.Re: Laudrup. I don't think anyone is overrating him. You have received twice as many votes as Viva! It's not him I can't see being stopped, it's the combined play of Viva's entire front six. It probably wasn't the best idea to focus so much on the flank stuff and completely forget to emphasise what is great about that team, number-games and shirt-matching aside.
Not a great couple of days for poor Nikopolidis.
Terry is underrated on here. No question. On any general english football forum, his name will be up for as one of the best center backs in premiership ever. Even on a global football forum, I think he will get more credit than he gets on here.
Nope, me too.
Anyone who would have liked a christmas tree with Ince, Effenberg and Modric in midfield, Sanchez on the bench and Nedved and Laudrup behind Crespo?
I knew Sanchez would get little to no credit.
How much does he deserve? If his career was over right now, never played a game again, how would we remember him in 20 years?
Nop I do too, I'm just a lousy cnut who doesn't follow what he believes and places player according to other people's mind
By the way, How would people feel if I would've picked Makalele instead of Effenberg?
And played the same 4-2-3-1 but with Makalele-Modric instead of Effenberg-Ince?
Makelele might have been the tipping point in your favour!
Great game, mate! I was sweating far more than the actual votes indicate. One of those matches in which lady luck made the difference for me a bit, I suppose!
Great game, mate! I was sweating far more than the actual votes indicate. One of those matches in which lady luck made the difference for me a bit, I suppose!