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The void is out wide where Branco and Amoros have to defend 2 vs 1 all game. I agree that if Sammer plays in the midfield that central area has no issues and is instead very strong.I don't think moving into midfield will leave any such void. Both Sanchís and Maldini are excellent CBs, the fact they could count with Sammer dropping back occasionally is more a luxury than a need.
The best German team to play 532 was that 1972 team - which I am in no way suggesting is similar to this - and they played with Muller and Netzer which is surely comparable to Rui Costa and Baggio. The rest of the team are hard workers.The issue is that wherever Sammer is, the position he left left a gaping hole. The prerequisite for a libero is that he should be able to leave any position and enter any other without there being a clear void that will be taken advantage of instantly.
Fielding three men that won't put in the necessary shift in the defense is too much to afford to have a libero unless you completely outskill the opponent. I remember Balu stating that a 5-3-2 is based on incredible work-rate throughout the entire team - which is why it was a German favorite.
I agree with that idea and exchanging 4-5 hard-working gritty Germans for 4-5 players where none is known for their gritty work-rate and defensive brilliance just doesn't work.
Not every team has to follow the exact same execution in the same formation - but I think this is more of a case of disregarding fundamental principles.
Wimmer is missing and is replaced with Alonso who won't by any means provide that same work-rate and defensive leg work.The best German team to play 532 was that 1972 team - which I am in no way suggesting is similar to this - and they played with Muller and Netzer which is surely comparable to Rui Costa and Baggio. The rest of the team are hard workers.
'72 was pretty much a 433 with Netzer dropping deep into defense to collect the ball? Not entirely sure about all games, but with Vogts injured, it usually was a back 4 of Breitner, Schwarzenbeck, Beckenbauer and Höttges with a midfield 3 of Wimmer, Netzer and Hoeness. I don't think I've ever seen it called a 532. Why do you think it was a 532?The best German team to play 532 was that 1972 team - which I am in no way suggesting is similar to this - and they played with Muller and Netzer which is surely comparable to Rui Costa and Baggio. The rest of the team are hard workers.
I was going to say the same thing, I checked that in the last draft when I was planning on using Beckenbauer as a back three sweeper but it was a back four for Germany in the Euros I think.'72 was pretty much a 433 with Netzer dropping deep into defense to collect the ball?
Aye he was better at Fiorentina and linked up well with Batistuta, Chiesa and Balbo. Oozed class but maybe lacked a wee bit of end product to compare favourably to some of the other great no10s of his era.His best days were at Fiorentina in those times he was rivalling Zidane as the best playmaker in the league.
He was up there with the greatest 10's of his era no doubt, by many accounts he was at times better than Zidane in the mid 90's. I don't think there was much wrong with his end product either, he laid countless assists on the plate for Shevcenko and Batistuta, Zidane wasn't that much more productive than him tbh, in fact there goal ratios in Italy were pretty similar. Its Zidane's international performances that catapulted him onto the next level.Aye he was better at Fiorentina and linked up well with Batistuta, Chiesa and Balbo. Oozed class but maybe lacked a wee bit of end product to compare favourably to some of the other great no10s of his era.
No, it's more a "player lifecycle" thing than a competence issue. Sanchís was a CB but also played in midfield, so it's not surprising that with age and losing pace/stamina but gaining experience/reading of the game he got used more often as a sweeper. He was excellent, certainly better than Lucio and arguably the best on the pitch after Maldini, but not that great/irreplaceable that he would justify being so high maintenance.How good was Sanchis at his best @antohan? I only really seen him towards the end of his career but had thought he was more of a sweeper, no? Was he always first choice for Spain?
I'm surprised at the gap. I like VivaJ's side but maybe the Chelsea theme in defence is costing him dearly. It's actually Traitor that doesn't quite sit right with me. I can see the point, but would be far more convinced by Effenberg and Rumpelstiltskin.Well this one is over.
I am surprised by the gap as well. EAP has a team worthy to win it, even though I still prefer Viva's, but the gap is not indicative of how close the match should be at all IMO. It's been like that in almost all draft games which is a shame IMOI'm surprised at the gap. I like VivaJ's side but maybe the Chelsea theme in defence is costing him dearly. It's actually Traitor that doesn't quite sit right with me. I can see the point, but would be far more convinced by Effenberg and Rumpelstiltskin.
I can't see that midfield holding him out and, as I said, Mufasa holds the key to this game. Think he would have a blinder here and it is precisely his workrate that prompts me to prefer Rumple on that side. The shit they would get up to together and linking up with Laudrup... feck me, feck Ponytail, it's just pure sex.
Didn't see that one coming. We've all been warned now, no one try this again!I'm surprised at the gap. I like VivaJ's side but maybe the Chelsea theme in defence is costing him dearly. It's actually Traitor that doesn't quite sit right with me. I can see the point, but would be far more convinced by Effenberg and Rumpelstiltskin.
I can't see that midfield holding him out and, as I said, Mufasa holds the key to this game. Think he would have a blinder here and it is precisely his workrate that prompts me to prefer Rumple on that side. The shit they would get up to together and linking up with Laudrup... feck me, feck Ponytail, it's just pure sex.
Well, putting it down to Gallas at RB was mischief Carvalho has been OKish before, so it must be Captain Lionheart? Or the mobile phone black hole.Didn't see that one coming. We've all been warned now, no one try this again!
Absolutely right. To be honest I'm not sure who I was thinking of and I'm too tired to figure out which German side it was. Regardless, I just think it's ridiculous how people have such rigid views on how teams set up and how formations have to be utilised. To use a more modern example, that wonderful Croatian side in 1998 played in pretty much the same way. Prosinecki and Boban in midfield, Stanic playing just behind Suker...the same criticisms aimed at Ballack could be aimed at Prosinecki and the same criticisms of playing playmaker like Rui Costa in behind a striker who drops off the #9 could be aimed at Stanic and Boban. If I had the time I could find plenty more examples. More than one way to skin a cat and all that.'72 was pretty much a 433 with Netzer dropping deep into defense to collect the ball? Not entirely sure about all games, but with Vogts injured, it usually was a back 4 of Breitner, Schwarzenbeck, Beckenbauer and Höttges with a midfield 3 of Wimmer, Netzer and Hoeness. I don't think I've ever seen it called a 532. Why do you think it was a 532?
Müller's workrate is underrated, imo, Netzer was a lazy bastard though, no doubt, but he did help defend a bit in those games.
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Both Baggio and Shevchenko pulled out wide regularly and naturally and were very threatening from there, and both were threats in behind. You seem to have acknowledged that with Shevchenko (and of course it was abundantly clear when he played alongside the opposition striker Crespo in his Ballon d'Or winning season) but somehow it seems to be an issue with Baggio? I find that bizarre, to be honest. Baggio's two goals against Bulgaria in what is one of the most famous knockout performances of modern history came by doing exactly those two things. The dozens of "Baggio's greatest goals" videos show him doing exactly that again and again.Well this one is over.
I think the problem with Baggio-Sheva was already established after drafting? Generally in a diamond(or in a magic square) where two strikers play up top, you really don't need a striker to drop deep. It is better to have someone who can stretch the defense by moving out wide at times. Sheva can do that but not here where he will be required to provide a presence in the center. As Viva pointed out, that will mostly allow his full backs to crowd the center even more.
And I do give Baggio credit but if he is working his magic then Costa not so much. Dunno it is just me but I never rated Costa that highly anyway. Just checked, he has 4 goals for Milan in 120 games. That is notoriously low.
If Zidane performs like he does for the NT, he is slightly superior to Rui Costa who is world class, no doubt, but Zidane with the French NT is above all... on club level, anyway, Zidane never showed the same level... still very good, but then again worse enough to be in a disadvantage against Rui Costa, IMO...
I'm not trying to suggest that Zidane was inferior to Rui Costa or even that that was a widely held opinion at the time because it wasn't, but the vast majority would acknowledge he was at the very least on the level below him and in some areas - like passing - he was superior.As much as I like Zidane, I have to admit that is one of his weaknesses. Rui Costa's weakness is his crooked shot. The guy moves the ball through the field with much more fluidity than ZZ, makes his crap team mates look good, but ZZ is better at free kicks and one timers (hard blast into the net).
For my money, Rui is a better buy. He costs less and is nearly as good as ZZ.
Agree with that. But then Zidane for all his elegance and genius is another whose goals return doesn't quite stack up when he starts getting compared with the greatest of all time. There's been quite a lot of revisionism where Zidane has moved above players who were outperforming him for large parts of the late 1990s/early 2000s.He was up there with the greatest 10's of his era no doubt, by many accounts he was at times better than Zidane in the mid 90's. I don't think there was much wrong with his end product either, he laid countless assists on the plate for Shevcenko and Batistuta, Zidane wasn't that much more productive than him tbh, in fact there goal ratios in Italy were pretty similar. Its Zidane's international performances that catapulted him onto the next level.
Maybe the Euro winning team in '80 ? That's probably our most entertaining 532 side. Though even that often looked like a 433, depending on how you want to call Rummenigge's position/role.Absolutely right. To be honest I'm not sure who I was thinking of and I'm too tired to figure out which German side it was.
I didn't say anything against it earlier because it made no sense to me and I had no time to explain why it made no sense to me, truthfully. If you're giving Baggio space out wide to run into then he'll gladly drift out there, pick the ball up and drive straight at the defence. As one of multiple very obvious examples...There doesn't need to be discussion about can Baggio/Rui Costa/Shevchenko maybe having a magical night or not, because they can't in the tactics employed to them.
I am not talking about Laudrup's magic either because he's influence will be reduced by Sammer Ballack & Alonso. I don't need to just show videos of his amazing abilities simply to show, because it's less relevant at this match.
Anyway, This is really frustrating, I'm getting slaughtered here with 90% of the voters not bothering to say why I'm losing it, and there is no contradiction for any neutral voter or the managers themselves in regard of which areas can Baggio/Shevchenko/Rui Costa can exploit with my inserted tactics of extremely narrow defense.
This goes to show how many people are really looking only at players on the match and how few are really paying attention to tactics that managers spend hours building and arguing.
At least I'm losing to a really good team. Well done EAP & Brwned.
And no, I'm not taking this too seriously it's all good. Just a tad frustrated that I get no comments on my counter tactics.
Unless I read that wrong, you basically concede here that Sheva and Baggio are not an ideal partnership. Even go on to mention yourself that Sheva won't get to perform his natural role and would have to just provide a presence upfront for others. I mention something similar and it is a bizarre criticism!I agree that Baggio and Shevchenko have the potential to get in the way of each other but I don't see Rui Costa being dragged into that. I see him in a very different role to the one Baggio will be occupying. If you look at Rui Costa's assist v Juve (0:10), that's how I expect things to shape up. Rui Costa using his range of passing to create things from deep while the front two stretch the opposition defence. People always talk about Baggio as a #10, and of course he was that, but he was a great forward more than anything. If we talk about Baggio at his peak then we're inevitably looking at Baggio in '94, and in his best performance of the tournament he was part of a strike partnership with Casiraghi rather than the link between attack and midfield. Asking Rui Costa to play the role he had at Milan and Baggio to play as he did in '94 will not be limiting them in any way, IMO, it's just giving them some direction on where to focus their talents. They're entirely capable of excelling in these roles as they've shown even if neither is playing as a classic free role #10.
Shevchenko on the other hand will have to be more of a foil for Baggio rather than being the focal point of the attack so we're unlikely to see him in Ballon d'Or winning form, but allowing him to focus more on goalscoring isn't necessarily such a bad thing. He's Milan's 2nd highest goalscorer of all-time more than anything because of his aerial prowess and sharpness in the box. I'd say at least a third of his goals came from headers and over half of his goals were typical predators' goals - the kind Baggio didn't score. So you're essentially limiting him to something he did exceptionally well.
It may well have been that but I don't particularly associate that 1980 side with playing a 532...in fact I don't really associate that Germany side with anything except Hrubesch's goals in the final and Schuster running the show. That 1980 side is a decent set-up to address Cutch's concern about whether Sanchís' is all that comfortable playing with Sammer as he is often regarded as a sweeper himself, because for a couple of years Sanchís played alongside Uli Stielike in defence - another German midfielder/sweeper. Sammer is a much more mobile, dominant, powerful kind of sweeper/libero but Stielike was a very clever player with plenty of spacial awareness and he essentially occupied the same role.Maybe the Euro winning team in '80 ? That's probably our most entertaining 532 side. Though even that often looked like a 433, depending on how you want to call Rummenigge's position/role.
I agree. The narrow defence and the accompanying graphic didn't convince me at all to be honest. Voting for EAP on account of slightly more individual quality and a coherent tactical approach.I didn't say anything against it earlier because it made no sense to me and I had no time to explain why it made no sense to me, truthfully. If you're giving Baggio space out wide to run into then he'll gladly drift out there, pick the ball up and drive straight at the defence. As one of multiple very obvious examples...
Honestly, lads, I can't believe I've had to spend 20 minutes talking about how adept these three were at exploiting that space out wide. As far as I'm aware neither me nor EAP have said anything untrue about any of the opposition players and if anything I'd be more inclined to talk about how good the Nedved-Laudrup combination could be or how disappointed I am that Modric was so underrated in the previous game that he had to be dropped but instead here we are defending what I would call bizarre criticisms/suggestions.
Do you really see that as a similar comment/criticism? They're miles apart, for me. If someone here is saying that Shevchenko is not at his absolute best here because he will have to do more of the running and have less freedom to express himself then I can have no complaints. If you're saying they're not the ideal partnership, I agree. However it's your justification for why that is the case is what is baffling to me. It makes no sense. I don't know how anyone could think that about Baggio. None of what I said in there touches on Baggio being able to play out wide or get in behind..in fact it alludes to the exact opposite. I'd rather we ignore this game for one moment I'd love to hear why it is you think that Baggio stretching the defence either in behind or out wide is out of his comfort zone.Jeez.. this is what you yourself posted in the draft thread
Unless I read that wrong, you basically concede here that Sheva and Baggio are not an ideal partnership. Even go on to mention yourself that Sheva won't get to perform his natural role and would have to just provide a presence upfront for others. I mention something similar and it is a bizarre criticism!
Anyway not my match up so I will leave it be. Carry on.
Chelsea players are a canceer. Makelele/Essien in my game.Told you Viva, that Chelsea defense is a cancer on this forum.
It is the Lionheart without a doubt.Well, putting it down to Gallas at RB was mischief Carvalho has been OKish before, so it must be Captain Lionheart? Or the mobile phone black hole.
There's only one thing worse than playing for Chelsea and it's playing away when everyone would love a piece of what you have at home.
While also comfortably boring the shit out of everyone.Chelsea players are a canceer. Makelele/Essien in my game.
The defense..
My chelsea spine in the CL draft.
We can't deal with teams that beat us comfortably...
I think that counts for most domestic players to have played in the PL in the last 10 years, the best bet seems to be going with players who played abroad 20 or so years ago, because even if they aren't better than current players, they're romantic and you can 'sale' them better.While also comfortably boring the shit out of everyone.
Essien and Makelele have gotten due credit IMO. Not together perhaps but otherwise both are rated well. Lampard, Terry, Drogba, Carvalho are just terrible to have.
First of all I'd just like to say that Nedved outpacing Amoros is just never going to happen which changes the entire makeup of the attack. For anyone who doubts that, just have a look at his wonderful recovery and superbly timed tackle here. And I say this as a true Nedved lover - he is by a distance the first person I would want to add to our team. In this case Nedved is facing up to Amoros with Alonso blocking off the space and cutting out the passing angle to Laudrup while Sammer is marshalling the whole movement of the unit and keeping a close eye on Laudrup and Crespo, judging the threat of the opposition and moving across to close the space off and contain the attack depending on how it develops. It wouldn't be a simple case of Sammer is stepping into midfield and cancelling out Laudrup as some people have alluded to in this game. That's not how the team is set up and that is not how the game would play out. I could make a similar graphic with Baggio drifting out wide on the left in between midfield and fullback with Rui Costa out wide right with the ball at his feet and Shevchenko pulling onto the back post as Rui Costa shapes up to either play an inch-perfect cross or thread a lovely ball through to Baggio to shimmy and shift and work himself a bit of space outside the box to then curl one in or slot it through to Shevchenko as he slips in behind Terry. I could do that. I just don't think it adds anything to the game because the game is so fluid and people are so aware of this that it won't show anything resembling reality. Unless it's catenaccio against an old-fashioned W-M then you won't be able to accurately represent anything that would take place in this game...and even then it would be a stretch.My Team steals the ball and going on counter:
One of my midfielders/full backs takes the ball, spreads it wide, in this graph - to Nedved, who outruns Amoros with his pace and on the account that he is facing the opponent's goal while Amoros needs to turn around, Laudrup is being watched by only Sammer leaving a situation of Laudrup-Nedved-Crespo(and sometimes Sanchez) against Maldini-Sammer-Sanchis(and sometimes Xabi if he stays deep, because he doesn't have pace to get as quickly as needed to stop this).
It's not much with other players. Chelsea is hated a lot more than others. Most accuse them of "buying the league" and playing some really boring football, which is still going on. In reality, those combos would get you a win like they used to but not here.I think that counts for most domestic players to have played in the PL in the last 10 years, the best bet seems to be going with players who played abroad 20 or so years ago, because even if they aren't better than current players, they're romantic and you can 'sale' them better.