Love it that EAP is leading has 7 votes thus far and only one of them(apart from EAP himself) commented.. Brilliant.
Redcafe Sheep Draft QF1 - Edgar Allan Pillow vs VivaJanuzaj
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
I don't think Alonso is the problem. Ballack is.Again Alonso is getting a raw deal here. He cannot defend and cannot participate in attack. have people forgotten what happened to Liverpool once he left. He is playing for one of the best teams in both club and national side and just seems invisible in this draft. More like a liability than just being invisible
What?
Ballack is reinforcing the midfield, not helping the defence here. His trademark runs into the box for important goals will keep the DM busy, leaving the other to be double tagged by Baggio/Rui Costa. Laudrup and all that, but a 8 man defence is just bollocks!
Sanchis who is the weakest defender here apart from Branco.
Please, I showed it in the graph and explained time and time again how I'm planning to defend. But for you, I'll say it again:
Wing backs being followed by Nedved & Sanchez
Without further wide players that is freeing - Cashley and Lahm to tuck in to crowd the middle, helping Terry&Carvalho against Shevchenko-Baggio
Ince & Effenberg are tracking Ballack & Costa.
And I say that is ridiculous. Baggio is not going to operate anywhere near your full backs's or wide AM's. Being a 9.5, he will constantly drift in spaces between your defence and DM's. If anyone is keeping a eye on Baggio, it has to be Ince or Effenberg with support from CB's. I honestly don't see how Cashley is going to tack Baggio into the midfield! Again they will just trip over the existing DM's. Just chaos. No way that strategy will work!
Surely Ballack displayed in 2008 that he was more than comfortable playing in a deeper midfield role for club and country? He was a key part of the Germany side in Euro 2008 and he was instrumental in Chelsea's excellent second half of the 07/08 season? Yes, it's not him at his very best but come on...to call him a problem is bizarre.
I hadn't even checked the scoreline, was going on comments floating about. So Bollox isn't a problem then How is it ridicules?
Do you ignore anything real in football? If your wing backs are constantly followed by my wingers(and they are), that means you got no width. Baggio and Rui Costa are already stepping on each others' toes, so Baggio will naturally go a bit wider to find space, if he won't - with Lahm & Cole crowding the central box Shevchenko-Baggio-Rui Costa will have no room to control the ball(That's called - narrowing the defense), if he will drift wide, he'll have either of them on him all the time. Win-win for me. As soon as I stopped your wing backs completely you got no width and that allows me to narrow the defense and all your central attempts won't work. You got zero threat to my box.
See above. I'm not calling him a problem, I was getting across the general vibe I got from the thread. But then, the thread is clearly not representative of the voting so it's all quite irrelevant.
Yep, three or four people saying my team will win it, one said EAP's team will win it - and he leads by 5 votes
Baggio is a 9.5 meaning he will operate between your defence and DM's. Rui Costa as I mention is OP is capable of operating deeper than contemporary AM's, so there is no way they will trip over each other. And I honestly have no clue why Baggio needs to operate wide. Even if he does that the fact that your fullbacks are going to follow him down to midfield is just bizarre!
That's not very real though, is it? In real football I would indeed expect Nedved to keep Amoros too busy and shut him out from having much of an impact, but Alexis Sánchez on Branco? Branco will just swat him aside. Branco was more like a midfielder who could defend than a fullback who could go forward. He is well suited to his role in this game and Sánchez won't stop him, while you probably don't want Lahm to come pick him up too early. He will be very comfortable between the halfway line and 30 yards out and will put some great balls in, a bit like what I thought Mihajlovic would be doing in my game with Stob.
He needs to operate wide because unless he does you will have no one wide with Amoros & Branco being shut by Nedved & Sanchez, allowing Lahm and Cole to tuck in the middle. If he doesn't it makes the middle of the park will look like this:
That's 10-11(!!!) players in the middle of the park!! You're players won't have any room to create anything!
Alexis is being massively underrated here. On the attacking end? alright, I can withstand it, but on the tactical awareness? He usually plays with Barca's Dani Alves, why do you think Martino prefers Sanchez over Pedro? Because Sanchez offer way more defensive attitude(And speed tracking back) than Pedro and that is extremely necessary to cover for Alves. So yes, of course Lahm will sometimes need to take command there but that isn't the basic case, the basic case is Sanchez not giving him any room to move.
i guess if we are to just look at the names than EAP will win (your chelsea defence connection is not working for you with casual voters). i personally am torn and think your system can win, the only thing stopping me for voting for you is Sammer, and the role he is going to play with Laudrup
Maybe he is just a better player? Why is it that suddenly tracking back and defending is almost a pre-requisite for playing on the wing? It's a bonus, sure, but the idea is attackers should primarily help you score, not defend. I probably rate Sánchez higher than most on here, but arguing he will remove Branco from the game is quite ridiculous. It's not like allowing for Branco to have some impact is going to turn the tables anyway, but this whole notion of matching players and automatically having them out of the game is quite ridiculous.
Honestly it is up to the neutral votes here, because I don't think that will work. Baggio was voted 4th in footballer of century poll, Sheva is 3rd highest goalscorer in CL (who incidentally resumes his partnership with Rui Costa). Putting Terry/Carvalho on them is just not going to work. Both are fluid players who move around a lot. So fullbacks following them into the middle will never work.
I honestly did not expect Baggio of all players to get underrated in a draft. Laudrup needs Sammer+Laonso+Ballack to be contained, whereas Baggio/Sheva can be contained by Terry/Carvalho with support from fullbacks strategically following them to the middle of defence is just unbelievable.
Yeah don't see it happening. Sheva's pace is bound to hurt them as well, don't think they're suited to counter the pace and ball control of that front two.
Alonso is a deep lying playmaker and differs substantially from a pure DM. His main asset is his outstanding range of passing which can kick-start a goal-opportunity from his own half at any single time.
Nobody would play Alonso in the team to ensure defensive domination in a defensively crucial role in the midfield and the same goes for Ballack. They absolutely rely on Sammer bringing that world-class defensive midfield job to the game.
So let us assume that Sammer is in the defense, which is what we disagree on will work.
That means you will be defending in a line of 5-2-3, which of course is completely impossible as two men can't defend the size of a football pitch alone. But that or bringing down Rui Costa to create a midfield line of 3(which is the minimum that works) are your only alternatives.
The conclusion of all this is not that you will lose, just that Sammer will be playing as a DM all game long. Then that creates the issue with playing two wing-backs who are your only way to provide width so they have to bomb up and down the wings uncovered.
In my eyes you have the ability to adjust by bringing on your substitutes because right now I think VJ has a complete and utter tactical advantage.
If Sammer is in your defensive line - your defensive line will be excessively strong and your midfield will be utterly outplayed. If Sammer is in the central midfield line then that is excessively strong and the defensive line(wings) are outplayed.
I'm staying out of any "my team is better than yours" discussions here while EAP's around because double-teaming is obviously unfair, but I'd just like to point out that Viva Januzaj has went from saying "Lahm doesn't usually need help, and that's why he's partner is Alexis Sanchez, who isn't known for his wonderful work rate and discipline like Nedved, but knows he tactical way around a team and provides help for the full back when needed." just a few days ago to now deciding that Alexis Sanchez is cancelling out the most attacking fullback in the game. I find that quite amusing myself. Particularly when Pedro is being brought up in this discussion when anyone who watched Barcelona when they were seen as the pinnacle of football could tell you that Pedro never stopped running. He's just been dropped because his attacking play is nowhere near as good as it was back then.
If you look at goal threats in the teams, Baggio leads by a mile. I'd still rate Sheva's goalscoring ability over that of Laudrup/Crespo.
Since none of these matters in this draft yet, please take a few minutes and watch the below videos before voting.
Since none of these matters in this draft yet, please take a few minutes and watch the below videos before voting.
I took it back, said that of course Lahm will have to help from time to time with his wing but it's not half as much threat required to bring widen my narrow defensive line. Alexis' role is to stop him from creating width, that's all. He can definitely do that.
And as for Alexis-Pedro, last year Pedro was the better overall player but Tito chose to play Alexis over him anyway, why? Because he's tactical awareness is bigger.
Baggio is not underrated! Stop saying that I claim that Baggio/Sheva can be contained by Terry & Carvalho! One of us is showing how he will defend from the other why the other is just saying bollocks over and over again. Which one are you? I'm proving things. You're just tossing things in the air! How can you avoid my 6 men packed in the middle defense?? I just drew it and you completely ignored it. Because you know I'm right and you have no comeback for that you're just trying to let it slip past tons of post.
Pedro never stops running in attack, he doesn't defend half as much as Sanchez does.
And as for what I've said. I already said I take it back and Lahm will need to help from time to time. Bloody read before you go out on a propaganda against me
It's pretty basic to his role that Sammer dropping into a three-man defence is required when the wingbacks bomb forward (i.e. in possession, or while witing for them to recover after losing it) but can feel free to come out into midfield to close down a playmaker like Laudrup when them fullbacks are back in defensive mode.
Nothing particularly complex and, in fact, the basic premise and usefulness of that role.
I think your offense is brilliant by the way. Personally I consider a working defense and a dominating midfield to be necessary for any offensive players to peak. If Branco and Amoros aren't providing width then that offense looks much less impressive like when Young/Valencia fails to provide width and dominate their wings.
The other option you have going for you is to allow yourself to be dominated centrally, and that of course also removes levels in the efficiency the strikers can operate at. I have a hard time seeing you provide both width and an even central battle at the same time.
The other option you have going for you is to allow yourself to be dominated centrally, and that of course also removes levels in the efficiency the strikers can operate at. I have a hard time seeing you provide both width and an even central battle at the same time.
Agree on Alonso not being a pure DM. But with Sammer marshalling the defence, it's not as if Alonso is defensively inept. His contribution is quite vital here and he is definitely not a defensive zero.
The main point is on versatility of Sammer able to operate as situation needs. He can play in both roles depending on whether we have the ball or not. Nothing strange in that. Infact I got hammered in first game for playing a sweeper and a DM together, yet it seems you are alluding to the same here. Am I misunderstanding you?
The point of fullbacks: Viva is repeatedly reinforcing that his fullbacks will be following Baggio/Sheva and providing support to his CB's. So there is no threat of any overlapping runs I should imagine. I honestly don't think it is even a bit effective, but if that's what Viva says, then that's what it is. In that case if Amoros/Branco keeps his wide AM's quiet, then the threat to my goal is minimum.
Now just for imaginations sake, lets assume his attack and my defence cancel each other out. Move away to the other side of the pitch, what do you think will happen there? Again ignoring the width here, do you think his central DM+defence will be able to handle what is against them?
It's so simple right? Yet everyone makes a big deal about either or, when both cases are in different phases of the game
. Of course Sammer's role in this set-up is highly influenced by the opponent's formation, e.g. against 2 strikers he will do a lot more sweeping behind the centerbacks, against a lone striker, he will help out in midfield almost all the time, while the team defends deep. You want Sammer in that role, because his decision making was tremendous. You call his role 'libero' for a reason, he's got the freedom to make decisions on his own and give the team flexibility. You don't take that away from him and limit him to one or the other. That's a familiar feelingSorry mate, if I came out blunt.
It's accept that your fullbacks will be following them to the middle, but still think it is neither a effective strategy neither will it be sufficient to stop my front 2. Let's agree to disagree here!
You are taking this way too seriously so I will bow out at this point.
Ok, gents! I'm calling it a day for now. I've put my thoughts across as much as I can. @Brwned can pitch in if he is of a mind to.
Let the best team win.
Let the best team win.
When in defense Sammer is needed in the defensive line - to allow Sanchis to help Amoros against Nedved and Cole - and for Maldini to move out and help Branco against Lahm and Sanchez.
Sammer can't leave the midfield line or EAP's midfield of Ballack and Alonso will be a huge weakness against Laudrup-Ince and Effenberg who also has the help of a drifting Nedved.
Sammer can't leave the defensive line or his wing-backs are suddenly playing 1 vs 2 all game long out wide.
To get the best of a libero which means "free" in Italian - you need the player to be free to help out where it is required. In this set up he has lost his freedom completely as he is a necessity in both the defense and the midfield at the same time when defending.
When an efficient libero moves from the defense to the midfield - the defense has to still look good - when he moves from the midfield to the defense the midfield still has to look good.
So he can decide when to step up and when to step down. This use of Sammer is not very near the way he was used by Balu in which case Muller and Scholl would help Reuter and Ziege defensively.
The issue here is that Rui Costa and Baggio won't defend anything like that nor will Sheva defend anything like Klinsmann. Three great players defensively switched for three much lesser players.
I don't necessarily agree with this. I get the point and it might become a problem, but more because the fullbacks are picked up too late in their runs, not because their runs aren't covered at all without exposing the defense. You don't need to help out on both wings at the same time, so if Maldini helps Branco, because Sanchez has the ball, Sanchis stays on the striker and Sammer in midfield. That's it, there's nothing exposed in defense.
Oh and I agree, my 532 was better thought out but with less individual quality upfront, that doesn't mean this one can't work.
Give your front trio as many opportunities on the ball as VJ's offense and yours would win hands down. I absolutely love Rui Costa/Sheva/Baggio in possession and especially on counters.
Annah, what you point out is valid, i.e. lack of defensive workrate at the front impacting the overall defensive effort.
What I don't think is valid is to then assume Sammer is a prisoner of one role or the other. Sammer sat in the middle of defence "just in case" both the fullback and covering CB get beaten sounds ludicrous to me. At any one point you can tell where the play is and where the dangerous situations are emerging and he will position himself/cover accordingly.
What I don't think is valid is to then assume Sammer is a prisoner of one role or the other. Sammer sat in the middle of defence "just in case" both the fullback and covering CB get beaten sounds ludicrous to me. At any one point you can tell where the play is and where the dangerous situations are emerging and he will position himself/cover accordingly.
The issue is that wherever Sammer is, the position he left left a gaping hole. The prerequisite for a libero is that he should be able to leave any position and enter any other without there being a clear void that will be taken advantage of instantly.
Fielding three men that won't put in the necessary shift in the defense is too much to afford to have a libero unless you completely outskill the opponent. I remember Balu stating that a 5-3-2 is based on incredible work-rate throughout the entire team - which is why it was a German favorite.
I agree with that idea and exchanging 4-5 hard-working gritty Germans for 4-5 players where none is known for their gritty work-rate and defensive brilliance just doesn't work.
Not every team has to follow the exact same execution in the same formation - but I think this is more of a case of disregarding fundamental principles.
Tougher one than i initially thought but i've gone for EAP. Think he'll have a decent control of this game, and i just fancy his attackers to be able to play their way through the middle here, with Baggio inparticular a real danger in the areas he'll be picking it up in and running at the defence. I think EAPs defensive system is fairly well setup to take care of Viva's attackers even with the significant quality of Nedved and Laudrup. I think Branco will benefit hugely from having Maldini for protection and should be able to be a strong attacking threat, without worrying hugely about Sanchez.
2-1 EAP
2-1 EAP
I don't think moving into midfield will leave any such void. Both Sanchís and Maldini are excellent CBs, the fact they could count with Sammer dropping back occasionally is more a luxury than a need.
Effenberg is getting forgotten here. He's ability to shift the play from defense to attack is immense, as well as his long shooting. But the story here is his long passes to either of Crespo Sanchez Laudrup or Nedved will be destructive for my opponent.
FWIW, I think Mufasa holds the key to this game. Not a bad player to have holding it.