So does this mean Nesta is going to be placed in both categories?
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2 Picchis @Joga Bonito
That kind of thing should be avoided, imo. Voting twice in two distinct positions (like CB and DM) yes, but not in two related categories for a multi-faceted player (like DM and CM, or both CB categories).
That was roughly the consensus among those who discussed it some time ago, but I don't know how others see it now. (I'd rather have Nesta and Kohler in the same category too, but the poll came out differently.)
Nope. Nesta is a ball playing CB. They are essentially stoppers with ball playing skills as opposed to just stoppers.
Boateng? BOATENG?
Having some issues Edgar?Great, now i know i made the right call.
Corrected
Ignoring the genius above, what others think of Boateng? Personally not sure if he had long enough peak(put him as im not sure about that specific thing on few olders but i give them a benefit of a doubt), but boy was he brilliant when at his best. Big game player as well, brilliant in WC final, plenty of great CL ties but that Messi moment destroyed all 3 tenses for him.
I actually like him. Love versatile players all through. Was quite solid at his peak and his long balls are always a thorn for any opposition. I have nothing bad to be said against him, but an all time Top 20 is a stretch. Messi is to him like Torres is to Vidic and Bale is to Maicon unfortunately.Hummels over Boateng any day of the week
And both vidic and maicon are in top 20 in their position.....every player got destroyed from time to time, even against average players.
Agree. The Messi incident has no relevance to my rating of Boateng.
Boateng had a very high peak and I've picked him in drafts before. Just a shame he couldn't sustain it for a longer period.
His peak was not long enough and his decline was way too rapid for me to consider him.
None of that “/“ shit, please. Make a choice.
For German ball-playing defenders i think you could argue Sammer had an even shorter peak than Boateng, only the 4 seasons with a good deal of missed games through injury for the last 2. I won't argue much because even making a short list stresses me out, but i'm actually a bit surprised he's often placed so high in light of that. Maybe it's because I've watched the Dortmund CL winning campaign recently and was surprised to see he wasn't a consistently key player at all due to his injuries, so his brief career as a defender is quite fresh in my mind.
A Balon d'Or goes a long way to enhance reputation.
In 20 - 30 years Sergio Ramos will be Top 5 on those lists. People who weren't around today will look at all his accomplishments and rank him based on that without going into further depth, just like we're doing with some players that played in the 60s/70s/80s
And there will always be others who correct it just like it happened with Santamaria being in top 5 in every list including here and now failing to even get picked in an all unrestricted time draft.
I noticed that no one has listed Maldini so far. Is that because his level at CB isn't seen as good enough, or is there some consensus here that he wasn't a ball-playing CB?
It’s hard to say, really. He does now come to mind immediately when you’re thinking of ball-playing center backs but he was very good with the ball, certainly better than the likes of Picchi and Santamaria, who do feature in some lists. I’m a bit torn as to whenever to include him in the stoppers list or not - the only compensation for this is that he’s at least going to top the list of left backs.
Speaking about surprising votes — I'd have never thought that anyone would put Beckenbauer 3rd, let alone 4th!
Although if anyone from the runners up group (Figueroa, Scirea, Moore and maybe Nesta) has a chance of reaching Beckenbauer, it's probably Figueroa, who, sadly, has the least amount of footage available of him.
Although if anyone from the runners up group (Figueroa, Scirea, Moore and maybe Nesta) has a chance of reaching Beckenbauer, it's probably Figueroa, who, sadly, has the least amount of footage available of him.
Big surprise there, player with least footage being rated the most.....
Well, it’s also a player with some amazing footage available and a few sources naming him the best player in the world from 1 to 3 seasons in the time of peak Cruyff and Beckenbauer. Not your usual case.
To me Baresi is the best CB ever, followed by Figueroa. Beckenbauer then comes 3rd in the ball playing CB's department.
Saying that of course Beckenbauer is above both of them as a player as he's one of the best B2B in the game as well so it's really hard to pin down him in a category that he's not best at just because on all round reputation.
I don't think as a CB Beckenbauer is better than either Baresi or Figueroa. As a player yes but as a defender nope.
I'd wager him being right at the top for best stoppers. He had all the qualities for a ball playing sweeper with the frame and physicality of a stopper.
His physicality really does mark him out in the ball-playing CB list. I reckon Mourinho would have him over Baresi for that reason.
Aye, Jose would love him. Much like Pele IMO, having more highlights at his peak would've extended even more his stature in the game.
@harms @Enigma_87 have him in top 5 IIRC soi rate him highly dont get me wrong, just saying its no surprise he is ahead of the guys of similar level that have more footage.
yeah you got a point there when it comes to defenders. Once in a while someone can make you look like a fool and it hurts defenders the most. If it was Messi or Cristiano missing an open goal it would be forgotten quickly. Messi turning Boateng inside out on the other hand is well remembered for long time.
It’s an interesting point. I agree than from a defensive point Baresi, Figueroa & a few others are definitely better than Beckenbauer, he is not someone I’d pick as a one-man wall at the back against a vastly superior attack. But in terms of the voting, I’m not sure. So, he’ll be around the top as a CB and B2B, but not the best in either category for you?
I'm still debating I'd put him above Scirea and Moore in terms of pure defensive sense as a CB tbh. He's around 3-5 in that position to me.
When it comes to B2B, I'd probably have Di Stefano and Matthaus above him and then comes der Kaiser.
Come to think about it Matthaus definitely deserves the #1 spot all things considered in that department due to the work he has done at his peak in both phases and also playing in a very highly competitive league against elite players like Maradona, Gullit, Laudrup and the likes..
Beckenbauer is definitely the better all round player compared to Matthaus, Scirea, Moore, Figueroa and Baresi(Di Stefano is up for debate), but the thing about him is that he spend his career putting up great performances in two positions and is elite in both of them, but I'm not sure you can call him the best in either.
I'm actually surprised to see him above Baresi on so many lists when it comes to CB position. I can understand putting him above Figueroa due to lack of footage but as a CB as you said I doubt you can claim he's better than either if we put away his overall contribution to the game and overall stature.
Based on what information was Santamaria's standing corrected?
Mostly more people watching football rather than depending on anecdotes to judge players.
How can you make such a judgment based on a handful of games that are available?
There were erratic enough instances in the biggest of games in his peak years to rule him out of the top 10 defenders of all time list.
Sure, I still rate him well enough but not anywhere near what he is rated in your average list on the internet.
I understand, don't think he should be Top 10 either.
Regarding Beckenbauer's completeness, I think a third category from our list has been missing so far: DLP. Not just ball-playing defender, but proper DLP in an all-time midfielder sense. Organizing the game from the back, pinging Netzer-like long balls with ease*, etc. (Since he was remarkably one-footed, a good percentage of brilliant passes were actually outside-of-the-foot flicks).
His spectacular B2B runs have become somewhat symbolic for his offensive repertoire, but too much in my eyes. I think it overshadows the fact that (in his libero days) he operated as an organizer from deep way more often than as an attacking player.
*I'd have to rewatch games where they played together, but from memory I'd say: better than Netzer.
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Edit: Although, to be clear, not meaning he has to feature in the voting there - it was a function of him as a player, not a distinct position. Libero + B2B is fine for the voting.
His spectacular B2B runs have become somewhat symbolic for his offensive repertoire, but too much in my eyes. I think it overshadows the fact that (in his libero days) he operated as an organizer from deep way more often than as an attacking player.
*I'd have to rewatch games where they played together, but from memory I'd say: better than Netzer.
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Edit: Although, to be clear, not meaning he has to feature in the voting there - it was a function of him as a player, not a distinct position. Libero + B2B is fine for the voting.
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From memory and its mostly WC 66' i wouldnt call him a b2b....more like a DM with 2, 3 great runs that were well timed