To me that looks like his knee is clearly behind the red dotted line they’ve drawn from his shoulder.Tweet
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I think his knees can very well be offside.
They now focus on the cuff of a short sleeve shirt meaning you can score a goal from that part of the body.To me that looks like his knee is clearly behind the red dotted line they’ve drawn from his shoulder.
Which would mean that’s the part they’ve focused on to make the ruling.
To be fair Liverpool should of had a penalty when Kante decided to become Chelseas new GKLiverpool and Spurs getting favourable VAR decisions? Plus ca change.
Bold bit is irrelevant. Always been a different rule for attackers.Blame who you want, VAR, the incompetent refs, the law makers, but this has to fecking change. All 3 of these today are absolutely ridiculous.
First Fulham's disallowed goal. I'm fuming and I don't give a feck about Fulham. This is absolutely being robbed. His arm is in a natural position, next to his body. You're a fecking idiot if you think this is handball, ever. Horrendous decision.
Absolutely spot on from start to finish.Blame who you want, VAR, the incompetent refs, the law makers, but this has to fecking change. All 3 of these today are absolutely ridiculous.
First Fulham's disallowed goal. I'm fuming and I don't give a feck about Fulham. This is absolutely being robbed. His arm is in a natural position, next to his body. You're a fecking idiot if you think this is handball, ever. Horrendous decision.
Then the ball hitting Kante's hand. I mean... how the feck isn't this a pen? We all hate Liverpool so it's funny but come on. His hand is way out next to his head and stops a cross from coming in. It's blatant. Made especially more ridiculous that the above was handball and this wasn't
Lastly, the offside. Yeah they've been calling them since last season. Plain and simple for me, if you have to start drawing lines like this, it's not offside. This isn't football. Let alone talking about how they just start picking random parts on his arm until it gets called offside if they pre-determined they'll call it offside. It's fecked. You can bet your ass they would call it a handball if the ball struck him where they drew the line.
It's out of control and it's killing the game. VAR is a good idea, if executed properly. Problem is the ref's are idiots, have 0 common sense, don't know the rules, the people who make the rules are shit at making them, and then VAR just exposes all the incompetency by showing multiple replays and the refs fecking up more and more.
I genuinely do miss the days before VAR. Yes, the ref sometimes fecked you. Guess what, football is a game between 2 teams and the selected official to rule the game to the best of their ability. Everyone on the pitch is doing their best. Sometimes you don't get the rub of the green, other times you do. It was a talking point for a bit, and then people would just move on. People could swallow mistakes as it was human error (well of course there would need to be accountability for mistakes from refs and improving the standard). People can't swallow mistakes when you make even more ridiculous decisions after looking at the replays. There are no excuses to feck up like they do. Bring back the days before VAR where we would be occasionally pissed off at the ref but were able to celebrate goals normally. It's so refreshing to look at older highlights pre-VAR and see a goal happen, and there not be any sort of delay while refs investigated every minute detail for a possible irrelevant nudge or nick of a hand somewhere in the past minute of game time. I fear those days are gone for good though, and for the worse.
I keep banging on about this but the solution is to just get rid of slow motion and freeze frames with VAR. Have another ref watching at normal speed only, if he thinks there's an issue he calls the on-pitch ref over to a screen where he sees the same thing at normal speed. You reduce delays, you eliminate margin of error in terms of framerate, players can celebrate goals because the lineos have authority again, and you do away with the utter bullshit of line drawing. People want VAR to overturn the egregiously bad decisions, not to decide whether someone's fecking armpit is offside or if the ball has grazed a fingernail.It's out of control and it's killing the game. VAR is a good idea, if executed properly. Problem is the ref's are idiots, have 0 common sense, don't know the rules, the people who make the rules are shit at making them, and then VAR just exposes all the incompetency by showing multiple replays and the refs fecking up more and more.
I genuinely do miss the days before VAR. Yes, the ref sometimes fecked you. Guess what, football is a game between 2 teams and the selected official to rule the game to the best of their ability. Everyone on the pitch is doing their best. Sometimes you don't get the rub of the green, other times you do. It was a talking point for a bit, and then people would just move on. People could swallow mistakes as it was human error (well of course there would need to be accountability for mistakes from refs and improving the standard). People can't swallow mistakes when you make even more ridiculous decisions after looking at the replays. There are no excuses to feck up like they do. Bring back the days before VAR where we would be occasionally pissed off at the ref but were able to celebrate goals normally. It's so refreshing to look at older highlights pre-VAR and see a goal happen, and there not be any sort of delay while refs investigated every minute detail for a possible irrelevant nudge or nick of a hand somewhere in the past minute of game time. I fear those days are gone for good though, and for the worse.
It's not irrelevant at all. Where do you want his arm to be? It's literally down by his side, and the ball would have hit his side if his arm wasn't there and there would be no change. It's against his body. He doesn't move his arm to the ball to direct it. It just hits his arm, in a neutral position, down by his side not making his frame of contact any bigger. It's NEVER a handball. It's a ridiculous call.Bold bit is irrelevant. Always been a different rule for attackers.
I don't know why people are so perplexed about that one, but for 'wanting' to be angry about it. Lino probably would have flagged it without VAR tbh.
Yeah, I don't think there's any bias. I think the refs love being the center of attention with VAR and love being nit-picky about every tiny little detail now, combined with being garbage referees. I also think there is evidently absolutely no accountability on refs, as the same shite refs can repeat the same shite performances, year after year with no change. I think the refs get affected by "momentum" or "story lines" too much as well. A red card foul in the first minute being "harsh" for example.I really don't think those decisions had anything to do with it being Liverpool and Spurs. Not like Liverpool haven't already had plenty of VAR calls go against them this season.
It's just shite rules that could go for/against anyone on any given day.
Well said mate. I'm guttedBlame who you want, VAR, the incompetent refs, the law makers, but this has to fecking change. All 3 of these today are absolutely ridiculous.
First Fulham's disallowed goal. I'm fuming and I don't give a feck about Fulham. This is absolutely being robbed. His arm is in a natural position, next to his body. You're a fecking idiot if you think this is handball, ever. Horrendous decision.
Then the ball hitting Kante's hand. I mean... how the feck isn't this a pen? We all hate Liverpool so it's funny but come on. His hand is way out next to his head and stops a cross from coming in. It's blatant. Made especially more ridiculous that the above was handball and this wasn't
Lastly, the offside. Yeah they've been calling them since last season. Plain and simple for me, if you have to start drawing lines like this, it's not offside. This isn't football. Let alone talking about how they just start picking random parts on his arm until it gets called offside if they pre-determined they'll call it offside. It's fecked. You can bet your ass they would call it a handball if the ball struck him where they drew the line.
It's out of control and it's killing the game. VAR is a good idea, if executed properly. Problem is the ref's are idiots, have 0 common sense, don't know the rules, the people who make the rules are shit at making them, and then VAR just exposes all the incompetency by showing multiple replays and the refs fecking up more and more.
I genuinely do miss the days before VAR. Yes, the ref sometimes fecked you. Guess what, football is a game between 2 teams and the selected official to rule the game to the best of their ability. Everyone on the pitch is doing their best. Sometimes you don't get the rub of the green, other times you do. It was a talking point for a bit, and then people would just move on. People could swallow mistakes as it was human error (well of course there would need to be accountability for mistakes from refs and improving the standard). People can't swallow mistakes when you make even more ridiculous decisions after looking at the replays. There are no excuses to feck up like they do. Bring back the days before VAR where we would be occasionally pissed off at the ref but were able to celebrate goals normally. It's so refreshing to look at older highlights pre-VAR and see a goal happen, and there not be any sort of delay while refs investigated every minute detail for a possible irrelevant nudge or nick of a hand somewhere in the past minute of game time. I fear those days are gone for good though, and for the worse.
yep - as soon as the onus is on the ref, they shit themselves in case Jamesie fecking Redknapp or RedNev disagree. Trouble is, var areputting the ball back into thr refs court instead of making a decision themselvesNail on the head Sir. Let's not forget that for all its faults, VAR has seen United get many more justified penalty awards than they were getting before. Therefore, it has to some extent undone the ability of the on field referee to shaft us, by refusing us justified penalties, as happened before. Now of course Klopp, Mourinho and Lampard have seen their past advantage over us disappear, so they started bleating about it. The gullible English press picks up on it and the refs know to follow the line that they won't get slaughtered in the media by giving us nothing, but woe betide them if they do. Attwell was just toeing the easy route rather than reffing properly.
Fulham one wasn't a horrendous decision, those are the rules. Blame Fifa or whoever it is in charge of the laws of the game.Blame who you want, VAR, the incompetent refs, the law makers, but this has to fecking change. All 3 of these today are absolutely ridiculous.
First Fulham's disallowed goal. I'm fuming and I don't give a feck about Fulham. This is absolutely being robbed. His arm is in a natural position, next to his body. You're a fecking idiot if you think this is handball, ever. Horrendous decision.
Then the ball hitting Kante's hand. I mean... how the feck isn't this a pen? We all hate Liverpool so it's funny but come on. His hand is way out next to his head and stops a cross from coming in. It's blatant. Made especially more ridiculous that the above was handball and this wasn't
Lastly, the offside. Yeah they've been calling them since last season. Plain and simple for me, if you have to start drawing lines like this, it's not offside. This isn't football. Let alone talking about how they just start picking random parts on his arm until it gets called offside if they pre-determined they'll call it offside. It's fecked. You can bet your ass they would call it a handball if the ball struck him where they drew the line.
It's out of control and it's killing the game. VAR is a good idea, if executed properly. Problem is the ref's are idiots, have 0 common sense, don't know the rules, the people who make the rules are shit at making them, and then VAR just exposes all the incompetency by showing multiple replays and the refs fecking up more and more.
I genuinely do miss the days before VAR. Yes, the ref sometimes fecked you. Guess what, football is a game between 2 teams and the selected official to rule the game to the best of their ability. Everyone on the pitch is doing their best. Sometimes you don't get the rub of the green, other times you do. It was a talking point for a bit, and then people would just move on. People could swallow mistakes as it was human error (well of course there would need to be accountability for mistakes from refs and improving the standard). People can't swallow mistakes when you make even more ridiculous decisions after looking at the replays. There are no excuses to feck up like they do. Bring back the days before VAR where we would be occasionally pissed off at the ref but were able to celebrate goals normally. It's so refreshing to look at older highlights pre-VAR and see a goal happen, and there not be any sort of delay while refs investigated every minute detail for a possible irrelevant nudge or nick of a hand somewhere in the past minute of game time. I fear those days are gone for good though, and for the worse.
Nah, that poster is right: it is irrelevant. I've posted it 47 times tonight it feels like, so sorry for the repetition everyone, but it does not matter if it is deliberate or not if the ball touches a players arm directly before they either set up or score a goal. Even an accidental handball, in those circumstances, sees the goal chalked off.It's not irrelevant at all. Where do you want his arm to be? It's literally down by his side, and the ball would have hit his side if his arm wasn't there and there would be no change. It's against his body. He doesn't move his arm to the ball to direct it. It just hits his arm, in a neutral position, down by his side not making his frame of contact any bigger. It's NEVER a handball. It's a ridiculous call.
In terms of what should handball be, I always like looking at it like "what would happen if the hand wasn't there" (for most things). If the hand is in front of your face and it blocks the ball hitting your face, it shouldn't be a handball. If your arm is away from your body and flailing like Kante's, the ball gets past and it's a normal cross and a chance for a goal. If Hudson Odoi's hand doesn't push the ball even slightly last week, it stays with Greenwood to control a bit more normally. The hand was away from the body there. If your hand is by your side, what else are you supposed to do with it? That Fulham call is genuinely one of the worst hand ball calls I've seen since VAR came into play, and that just can't be a rule in football. It just can't.
Well it is, as there's no context for any of that in the rules. Hits an attackers arm = instantly handball. No ifs/buts.It's not irrelevant at all.
Great post. I agreed with the idea of VAR, but its implementation has been disgraceful. It has really destroyed the game.Blame who you want, VAR, the incompetent refs, the law makers, but this has to fecking change. All 3 of these today are absolutely ridiculous.
First Fulham's disallowed goal. I'm fuming and I don't give a feck about Fulham. This is absolutely being robbed. His arm is in a natural position, next to his body. You're a fecking idiot if you think this is handball, ever. Horrendous decision.
Then the ball hitting Kante's hand. I mean... how the feck isn't this a pen? We all hate Liverpool so it's funny but come on. His hand is way out next to his head and stops a cross from coming in. It's blatant. Made especially more ridiculous that the above was handball and this wasn't
Lastly, the offside. Yeah they've been calling them since last season. Plain and simple for me, if you have to start drawing lines like this, it's not offside. This isn't football. Let alone talking about how they just start picking random parts on his arm until it gets called offside if they pre-determined they'll call it offside. It's fecked. You can bet your ass they would call it a handball if the ball struck him where they drew the line.
It's out of control and it's killing the game. VAR is a good idea, if executed properly. Problem is the ref's are idiots, have 0 common sense, don't know the rules, the people who make the rules are shit at making them, and then VAR just exposes all the incompetency by showing multiple replays and the refs fecking up more and more.
I genuinely do miss the days before VAR. Yes, the ref sometimes fecked you. Guess what, football is a game between 2 teams and the selected official to rule the game to the best of their ability. Everyone on the pitch is doing their best. Sometimes you don't get the rub of the green, other times you do. It was a talking point for a bit, and then people would just move on. People could swallow mistakes as it was human error (well of course there would need to be accountability for mistakes from refs and improving the standard). People can't swallow mistakes when you make even more ridiculous decisions after looking at the replays. There are no excuses to feck up like they do. Bring back the days before VAR where we would be occasionally pissed off at the ref but were able to celebrate goals normally. It's so refreshing to look at older highlights pre-VAR and see a goal happen, and there not be any sort of delay while refs investigated every minute detail for a possible irrelevant nudge or nick of a hand somewhere in the past minute of game time. I fear those days are gone for good though, and for the worse.
What happens if, for example, Maguire accidentally handles the ball in his own penalty area, brings it down and plays the ball over the opposition defence for Rashford to score on the counter within seconds of the original incident? Do United concede a penalty just because Rushford has managed to score?Nah, that poster is right: it is irrelevant. I've posted it 47 times tonight it feels like, so sorry for the repetition everyone, but it does not matter if it is deliberate or not if the ball touches a players arm directly before they either set up or score a goal. Even an accidental handball, in those circumstances, sees the goal chalked off.
It's a stupid rule, but it is the rule and has been for a couple of years now
No. At risk of being the lucky 1000000th person to point it out, they are different rules.It seems every single time I watch a VAR review I end up disagreeing with the “interpretation”. If any handling of the ball (regardless of context) is supposed to be whistled and deemed a foul by the laws of the game, it needs to be consistent. If Fulham’s goal today was chalked off for handball, Kante’s (and Hudson-Odoi’s) need to be considered handballs too.
What is really being highlighted is the incompatibility between rules which have been built up to be purposely open to interpretation for so many years, because referees are human, and VAR technology which allows almost complete accuracy.Blame who you want, VAR, the incompetent refs, the law makers, but this has to fecking change. All 3 of these today are absolutely ridiculous.
First Fulham's disallowed goal. I'm fuming and I don't give a feck about Fulham. This is absolutely being robbed. His arm is in a natural position, next to his body. You're a fecking idiot if you think this is handball, ever. Horrendous decision.
Then the ball hitting Kante's hand. I mean... how the feck isn't this a pen? We all hate Liverpool so it's funny but come on. His hand is way out next to his head and stops a cross from coming in. It's blatant. Made especially more ridiculous that the above was handball and this wasn't
Lastly, the offside. Yeah they've been calling them since last season. Plain and simple for me, if you have to start drawing lines like this, it's not offside. This isn't football. Let alone talking about how they just start picking random parts on his arm until it gets called offside if they pre-determined they'll call it offside. It's fecked. You can bet your ass they would call it a handball if the ball struck him where they drew the line.
It's out of control and it's killing the game. VAR is a good idea, if executed properly. Problem is the ref's are idiots, have 0 common sense, don't know the rules, the people who make the rules are shit at making them, and then VAR just exposes all the incompetency by showing multiple replays and the refs fecking up more and more.
I genuinely do miss the days before VAR. Yes, the ref sometimes fecked you. Guess what, football is a game between 2 teams and the selected official to rule the game to the best of their ability. Everyone on the pitch is doing their best. Sometimes you don't get the rub of the green, other times you do. It was a talking point for a bit, and then people would just move on. People could swallow mistakes as it was human error (well of course there would need to be accountability for mistakes from refs and improving the standard). People can't swallow mistakes when you make even more ridiculous decisions after looking at the replays. There are no excuses to feck up like they do. Bring back the days before VAR where we would be occasionally pissed off at the ref but were able to celebrate goals normally. It's so refreshing to look at older highlights pre-VAR and see a goal happen, and there not be any sort of delay while refs investigated every minute detail for a possible irrelevant nudge or nick of a hand somewhere in the past minute of game time. I fear those days are gone for good though, and for the worse.
They've tried that elsewhere, it didn't work. They ended up switching to what we have now.For offside it should be a still frame with no lines allowed. If you can't tell it is offside from that, it is not off. Would anyone be against that?
If it keeps going like this the laws may as well be ripped up and rewritten entirely around VAR. Or find human solutions, train the refs to a higher standard, experiment with 2-3 refs on the pitch and only keep the stuff that fits the game.
VAR is shite, everywhere, not just in England as many on here like to claim. The players, managers, and most of the fans don't want it.
Aye. Fans get pissed off when they look at the freeze frame and cannot see an offside. Aside from abandoning VAR, the obvious solution is to set a time limit (eg 5 seconds) with a still frame for a referee in the stand to decide. Quick decision made and less anality around the rules. We must not lose the emotional response to a goal. Anything longer than a few seconds and it's an anti-climax that saps the passion out of the game. We have already lost it in some cases such as the Werner finish last night. It's so flat and at odds with everything that attracted fans and players to the game in the first place.For offside it should be a still frame with no lines allowed. If you can't tell it is offside from that, it is not off. Would anyone be against that?
If it keeps going like this the laws may as well be ripped up and rewritten entirely around VAR. Or find human solutions, train the refs to a higher standard, experiment with 2-3 refs on the pitch and only keep the stuff that fits the game.
VAR is shite, everywhere, not just in England as many on here like to claim. The players, managers, and most of the fans don't want it.
Nah, that poster is right: it is irrelevant. I've posted it 47 times tonight it feels like, so sorry for the repetition everyone, but it does not matter if it is deliberate or not if the ball touches a players arm directly before they either set up or score a goal. Even an accidental handball, in those circumstances, sees the goal chalked off.
It's a stupid rule, but it is the rule and has been for a couple of years now
Well it is, as there's no context for any of that in the rules. Hits an attackers arm = instantly handball. No ifs/buts.
Beyond that, if there were grey areas then you'd have Maradona or Henry style incidents being 'grey areas'. No thanks - got enough of them in the rules as it is, and it's them ruining it
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It was a pre-scheduled meeting to change the laws from July 1st onwards. It happens every year. This isn't a matter of 'interpretation' but themchanging the laws. If you don't believe me, go and check the current laws of the game. They're hosted on the IFAB website and very easily accessible.Tweet
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Just like that City - Villa game. Ref makes a big mistake. Covered up by saying "technically he was right but now we are changing the interpretation for it to be wrong", even though it was always wrong.
Will say that this "clarification" is only going to cause more issues. It's never been about accidental vs intentional hand balls, or it shouldn't be. It's about is their arm in a weird position and/or making their body frame bigger, along with intentionally touching it with your hand also being a foul. You can have accidental contacts like Kante's where his hand is next to his head and elbow is bent out making a much larger area. It's accidental. His arm shouldn't be there though. The Lemina handball is just crazy and should never have been called, and thankfully won't be called going forward.
Basically this.It was a pre-scheduled meeting to change the laws from July 1st onwards. It happens every year. This isn't a matter of 'interpretation' but themchanging the laws. If you don't believe me, go and check the current laws of the game. They're hosted on the IFAB website and very easily accessible.
Nobody disagrees with you the law was stupid, so I don't know why you're so intently digging yourself in on whether or not it is the law rather than just admitting you were wrong. It doesn't change the overarching point that we all agree on that the law is stupid.
Edit: In fact, I think you’ll reply without checking them, so I’ll do it for you and save us both time:
These are the laws of the game as they currently stand and under which the game was officiated yesterday. It’s absolutely black and white:
It is an offence if a player:
- after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately:
- scores in the opponents’ goal
- creates a goal-scoring opportunity
https://www.theifab.com/laws/chapter/32/section/92/
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They're all fecking morons, to be honest.Tweet
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So if I'm reading that right any accidental handball by the goalscorer will still be an offence but an accidental handball by a teammate in the build up won't be.
On the downside, they've also confirmed that the upper arm will continue to be used for offsides.
Not so sure it's a clear 'upside'.Tweet
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So if I'm reading that right any accidental handball by the goalscorer will still be an offence but an accidental handball by a teammate in the build up won't be.
On the downside, they've also confirmed that the upper arm will continue to be used for offsides.
I think it would be difficult to deliberately block/control a ball with your hands in a way that is deemed accidental but still gives significant advantage over just trying to block it with another part of your body. You'd still need to have your hands in what is considered a natural position (i.e. not making the body bigger) and make sure there's no obvious hand-to-ball motion. The risk that you get it wrong doesn't strike me as being worth sacrificing an attempt at blocking/controlling legitimately.Not so sure it's a clear 'upside'.
Currently, defending players in their own box act like venus de milo so they don't risk giving away a penalty. There's a high risk aspect to it, and it's contentious even at that.
Allowing attacking players the possibility of being able to block a clearance or control the ball with their hand in some way that can be interpreted as accidental is a minefield. There's also zero risk to it. If a defending team goes to clear a loose ball in the box, there's no chance an attacker has a "risk" involved as I doubt they'd get cautioned unless it was clearly intentional.
Therefore, you'll probably see attackers starting to run around with jazz hands in the opponents box/area because there's two potential benefits:
1) you can stop a counter attack with little risk
2) you could get a chance to assist a goal if the handball is interpreted as 'accidental'
Next season this will inevitably be the new "the game's gone"