I reckon that one is definitely offside. From the moment the ball is kicked to the moment of the ricochet the keeper's line of sight is impinged. I just don't think that's true of today's one.
Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion
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I reckon that one is definitely offside. From the moment the ball is kicked to the moment of the ricochet the keeper's line of sight is impinged. I just don't think that's true of today's one.
If I saw one other example of a goal being disallowed for somebody being in the line of sight of the keeper for the pass before the shot I could maybe see the points being raised. Has it ever happened before?
If the Everton one, where the player is on the floor, is interference then the West Brom one today also has to be given offside.
In my opinion both were not actually hindering the keeper in anyway.
In my opinion as a referee (and a Liverpool fan but I like to think i can be objective), Alisson's line of sight was blocked by the player 2 yards in front him so the goal was correctly ruled out.
The free kick that led to Liverpools first should have been a drop ball as everyone here probably knows. It was a big mistake by Dean who will be kicking himself but in the phase of play that followed, there were plenty of chances for WBA to get rid of the ball and they fecked it up.
I think Dean has made the mistake because of how quickly Thiago has picked the ball up, placed it down and then played it. It was about 2 secs and the referee has lost his train of thought. It happens in games and has happened to me on a few occasions and honestly, as a referee, you kick yourself massively for it.
The free kick that led to Liverpools first should have been a drop ball as everyone here probably knows. It was a big mistake by Dean who will be kicking himself but in the phase of play that followed, there were plenty of chances for WBA to get rid of the ball and they fecked it up.
I think Dean has made the mistake because of how quickly Thiago has picked the ball up, placed it down and then played it. It was about 2 secs and the referee has lost his train of thought. It happens in games and has happened to me on a few occasions and honestly, as a referee, you kick yourself massively for it.
I don’t understand the hands rule anymore and when it should be red. Red card for Reims vs PSG seemed very tough imo and the ref gave the victory to PSG.
He was about 5 feet away from the keeper. If it was at the other end they would have given Liverpool the goal, 100%
The first header becomes a pass to a player in an onside position with nobody impeding the keepers view of the player who scored. The goal should stand.
No chance it would have stood for Liverpool either.
Neither of them made a mistake. You cannot assume the very thing that's under dispute, which is whether a mistake has been made in the first place.
That's as conclusive as evidence for a passive offside is gonna get. There is no way to stand there without interfering with play. At the very least you are a body to be taken into account when the keeper decides how to position himself and react, and at worst you are completely obscuring the ball. There's no way to excavate Alisson's thought process nor could there ever be, even if you were to use eye sight technology to see exactly what he is seeing. It impacted him or didn't, feck knows, but it's really not hard to see how it could have, and that's all a referee needs to take into account.How on earth is it a mistake?
This is the moment the ball is played:
The only way the offside player could be more in the goalkeeper's line of sight is if he had his hands over his eyes.
You can do a cone of vision analysis in some post match studio/lab, but in this case it's so clear cut it would be redundant.
I dont know ?? Seem to get the rub of the green
A mistake in judgment. The rule stipulates, black on white, that is has to clearly impact the line of vision. It is an element that is left to the referees to decide.
To be frank, it does not really matter anymore. What is done is done.
Does this mean anytime a player stands next to a keeper at a corner it's obstruction too?
Basically, yes.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Goalline technology is focused on one solitary position with one variable - far more straightforward. This is why Hawkeye is a thing in tennis - the lines are fixed and the ball is the only variable. The technology simply isn't to that point yet for offsides - you are arguing that the sky is green and not blue right now.
He was penalised because he was offside and you can't be offside from a corner.
But if, say, someone took a quick short corner and then played the ball from the exact same area (so a player standing in front of the goalkeeper could be offside) then yes, it would be diallowed if it played out in the same way. But it's obviously less likely to be offside coming off the back of a corner as there will often be defenders on the line or whatever.
Chelsea done over by VAR and referees two days in a row.
This is literally what I've been telling you repeatedly - given the current limitations of the technology, there is effectively a 16 cm margin of error frame to frame if players are moving at 30 kmph relative to each other (aka more or less jogging towards each other).
Absolutely mind-boggling that that pen was given. Changed the entire game imo.
Oh the women too?
I just meant at Wembley then today with the bin dipping twats
Oh hah! Completely misunderstood you there mate, you're spot on. The women got done by a diabolical decision for Barca's second right as they were getting to grips with the game. Ah well!
You've been done 3 times in that case!
Can't you and Leicester find a way of getting Liverpool out of the top 4 please
Would that I could - down to Burnley and Palace it seems...
A bit like McTominay did on Thu?
Just fricking concentrate on winning the CL and do us all, including yourselves, a favour.
Even Hawkeye isn't 100 percent accurate, though. There have been plenty of examples of players raging due to outcalls when chalk indicated that the ball must have hit the line.
If that has its flaws, this - which you pointed out is more complex - is going to face even more issues.
Just fricking concentrate on winning the CL and do us all, including yourselves, a favour.
Fair play to Alisson today; he seems a genuinely decent bloke going through a tough time. Thought his post-match comments were brilliant. Hard to begrudge him that even if I was going mental in front of the telly!
His line of sight wasn't blocked because the ball was high in the air at the time it was flicked on - meaning that Alisson could clearly see it.
With regards the brainfart by Dean for allowing a freekick instead of an uncontested dropball, and it should have been disallowed by VAR because of the error.
If we're going to allow the referee's to change the rules during the game, then why not just let them award corners when it goes out for throwings etc.
It was a clear mistake by Dean and VAR should have disallowed the goal.
Farce.
You only need to look at Alisson's protests when the second goal went in. Even in his protests he paid no attention to Phillips, he was only protesting pointing at Bartley to bring attention that he had touched it and was (potentially) offside.
The fact they only looked at it for a few seconds, like the Cup final, and the fact that they didn't pull up Liverpool's first goal for Mike Dean making up his own rules for the game leading directly to starting an attack that led to a goal makes it all rather unpalatable.
The fact they only looked at it for a few seconds, like the Cup final, and the fact that they didn't pull up Liverpool's first goal for Mike Dean making up his own rules for the game leading directly to starting an attack that led to a goal makes it all rather unpalatable.
I’d appreciate if I can get an answer:
If Chelsea win the UCL and Liverpool finish fourth in the league, who makes champions league next year? Only Chelsea or both Chelsea and Liverpool?
If Chelsea win the UCL and Liverpool finish fourth in the league, who makes champions league next year? Only Chelsea or both Chelsea and Liverpool?
You say straight forward when all of us discussing this are as stupid as each other. We have no idea how easy or hard it is and being dumb about it doesnt put it in doubt.
World football isnt judging offsides by cms because its unreliable.
All you're literally saying here is no it isnt to everything thats explained to you. Either research it or don't. Everything is out there for you find. You can start here
Yes the super slo mo cameras are recording at 1000fps but there's is only a few and there generally pointed directly at the action close up to capture interesting slo mo replays, not very useful for offside calls, where you need an overview of the pitch, which is why they use the broadcast pictures.
Apparently if the game isn't being live broadcasted then its recorded at 24 FPS making the margin of error for VAR even bigger.
Both a maximum of five teams from the Premier league can gain entry to the champions league next year.
There is literally nothing in there about frame rate. I don't doubt that the lines are drawn correctly on a given frame, the issue is the choice of frame matters hugely and it's a massive problem that's overlooked.
It's not a massive problem, nor is it overlooked.
Because its sorted, non factor. Its something fans picked up and wont let it go. The same way fans pretend the lines on the screen matter.
The conversation has gone on from reliability to being so accurate that its not healthy for the game to flag for offsides on mm calls. If frame rate was a problem, we would be told it was a problem.
Genuinely I don't see how this is a non-issue when it happened in the FA Cup final. The ball had clearly left Silva's foot in the frame they chose.
Also, given how calamitous VAR has been in general, do you really think they'd disclose problems with it?
Because it's fundamentally an improvement. Doesn't matter if it's in a cup final or not.
Is it accurate enough to get every mm decision correct? nope, but it's still an overall improvement on how it used to be and it's the closest you get to a objective decision that's also repeatable.
Under todays rules, this is the best you get. If you increase the tolerances you're still arguing cm decisions.
Offside isn't close to being VAR's biggest problem anyway. The referees are VAR's biggest problem, like how a certain West Ham player got sent off against Chelsea. How one day you're allowed to plant your hand in the face of the oppositions goalkeeper to prevent him from getting the ball, while the next day you're not allowed to win a fair header against a goalkeeper. Cover the defenders face with your hand and score from a header, no problem.
Chris Kavanagh gets decisions so badly wrong, even with the benefit of watching x amount of replays, and there's no real consequence. David Coote? It's incompetence, get rid of them
How do you know that Alisson could 'clearly' see it? There was an attacking player stood offside right in front of him. If that's not interfering with play, then I don't know what is.
As for the drop ball, yeah it was a mistake. Shockingly, just like players, refs make them too!
There's an important nuance to the Alisson thing that a lot are overlooking here. It's not just a simply being in the 'line of sight' thing... rather, the key issue is a presence of an opponent which may impact on the ability to see or play the ball. Whether it's possible for a save to be made is irrelevant, and this application has been pretty consistent over the last couple of seasons with offsides.
It's also written in to law and has been there a while, pre-dating VAR. A classic case of little-known laws being correctly applied now, because they can be enforced with greater scrutiny, but such flashpoints very quickly turn into referee-bashing nowadays because to do so is on trend.
It's also written in to law and has been there a while, pre-dating VAR. A classic case of little-known laws being correctly applied now, because they can be enforced with greater scrutiny, but such flashpoints very quickly turn into referee-bashing nowadays because to do so is on trend.
I agree that the refs themselves are by far the biggest problem - I suppose I fundamentally disagree that VAR is generally an improvement. I personally would argue that a system that has "objective" standards mixed in with judgement calls is poorly designed and should be binned.
I keep saying this but for me the solution is to just get rid of freeze framing and slow motion - these are completely different ways of looking at the game and for me aren't necessarily reflective of the spirit of the laws. People wanted VAR to overturn egregious errors - the types that are visible at normal speed.