Revisionism: Which players have had their legacies embellished or reduced since retirement?

[Skills]

Henry I think is quite underrated these days.

 

[Infordin]

Seems they may well be 'alternative facts' however they were quoted in good faith: https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=4335

Still doesn't detract from my opinion that he was subsequently overrated. I also happen to be of the opinion that the deepest lying player of a midfield three, whether an enforcer or a DLP is the easiest job on the pitch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Pirlo#Career_statistics

Pirlo has 41 goals in 401 appearances for Milan.

About him being overrated, the 2006 World Cup by itself suggests otherwise. MOTM in 3 out of 7 games, including the semifinal and the final. Scored a screamer against Ghana and got the joint-most assists.

 

[Revan]

Agree with Zidane and Scholes to an extent, but Brazilian Ronaldo? No way. He was absolutely exceptional, especially in his early years. Stick him up front for Barca or Real today when he was in his prime and he'd equal or exceed Messi or CR7s goal tally.

No, he wouldn't He was playing for Inter when the likes of Bierhoff were outscoring him. On his entire career, he won a single time Golden Shoe. During his years the players who won it were: Machlas, Jardel (twice), Maakay, Larsoon, Kevin Philips and Henry (Luca Toni, Francesco Totti etc were later but he was finished by that stage).

Can anyone imagine Ronaldo and Messi getting outscored from Kevin Philips, Jardel or Bierhoff?

Also, him winning a single league title (and no UCL) in 10+ years playing for some dominant teams like PSV, Barca, Inter, Real Madrid (3 times winner of UCL in the 5 years before he joined them) and Milano is incredibly a poor record.

Ronaldo was a great player in international stage, but on club level he was the best player in Europe in a single season of his career.

 

[caid]

Compare Iniesta's career and Zidane, you will notice that there are strong arguments that Iniesta is on his level and is just as much of a big game player. But if you ask the average person they would not agree. Try asking yourself and you will notice it.

I'd agree, i think iniesta is the better player.
Hes probably a passable shout for being underrated. Messi and Xavi have both gotten a bit of credit that he probably deserved

 

[predator]

Beckham's footballing ability is somewhat under-estimated due to the gimmicky, fashion brand perception of him.

I've always thought this. It's a consequence of his off field antics, although I don't think he cares.
I bet if you asked his colleagues and opponents what they think of him, they would rate him a lot higher than your average fan.

 

[Client6]

Becks and Scholes are underrated here on the Cafe but I have seen a resurgence of Becks's admiration recently.

Really surprising a lot of people underrate Scholes. On the ball, he was pure genius.

 

[Ixion]

Can anyone imagine Ronaldo and Messi getting outscored from Kevin Philips, Jardel or Bierhoff?

Jardel hit over 50 goals in a season twice and Phillips hit 30 PL goals which is no small feat (Ronaldo's best was 31). You can't just assume Ronaldo and Messi would therefore hit 60-70 goals then, it doesn't work like that.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

Maradona and Pele are big ones. Many won't have seen them play, so their legacies are being reduced. Maradona because of Messi (who to me is not even in the same bracket) and Pele (by the likes of Ronaldhino, Ronaldo, and potentially Neymar).

On the other hand the likes of Puskas, Di Stefano, Cruyff and Best have stayed at quite a consistent level.

 

[Kamprad]

Zidane has been reduced I think after reading this thread. There's a reason this guy was the main man of France and Real Madrid. He was untouchable. And it wasn't because of his personality. I agree he often didn't bother turning up during less important games.

You should watch his game against Brazil in WC 2006. He was levels above everyone else. Like an adult playing with kids.

 

[The Purley King]

Zidane has been reduced I think after reading this thread. There's a reason this guy was the main man of France and Real Madrid. He was untouchable. And it wasn't because of his personality. I agree he often didn't bother turning up during less important games.

You should watch his game against Brazil in WC 2006. He were levels above everyone else. Like an adult playing with kids.

There is a Jimmy saville joke in there somewhere but apparently we aren't allowed to make them

 

[Ian Reus]

Maradona.
From the handball goal to lifting the world cup and treble with Napoli.
And then the coke years.

 

[donkeyfish]

I think it is partly related to the age of those discussing. I will always have a weak spot for Zidane, Ronaldo and their generation of players. Since I was a kid when they played their best football.

That feeling will never be recreated with Messi or Pele for that matter, and probably results in me overrating those who shined in the late 90s.

 

[Revan]

Jardel hit over 50 goals in a season twice and Phillips hit 30 PL goals which is no small feat (Ronaldo's best was 31). You can't just assume Ronaldo and Messi would therefore hit 60-70 goals then, it doesn't work like that.

Ronaldo went a level or two up since then. On the last 6 years or so, only Luis Suarez (once) has outscored Messi and Ronaldo. Luis Ronaldo was outscored every year bar one. In the league (including the time when he was at PSV), Luis scored over 30 goals once in his career. Cristiano did it 7 times, Messi 5 times. On all competitions, Luis Ronaldo scored over 30 goals 4 times in his career, Cristiano did it 8 times, as did Messi. It is just too big a difference to say that put Luis in current Barca/Madrid and he will score as much. Likely, he wouldn't considering that he just scored too much less than those two freaks, and that he was getting outscored consistently from other players (something that doesn't happen with Messi/Cristiano). In addition, he wasn't playing for mugs, feck he played for Real Madrid (who had won 3 UCL in the five years before he went there, something that current Barca or Real couldn't do) and won a single league title and no UCL (a single semi final). He was a great player, but the image of the unstoppable force who was so much better than everyone and outscored everyone is just nostalgia and in reality it just didn't happen bar a year on his career when he was excellent but still couldn't manage to win the league (the team won the league the following season though, when Ronaldo left). Real Madrid also won the league the season when RVN replaced Ronaldo.

Jardim score 50 but they count 1.5 instead of 2 right?

 

[Revan]

Zidane has been reduced I think after reading this thread. There's a reason this guy was the main man of France and Real Madrid. He was untouchable. And it wasn't because of his personality. I agree he often didn't bother turning up during less important games.

You should watch his game against Brazil in WC 2006. He was levels above everyone else. Like an adult playing with kids.

He just didn't bother that much on the league, which should count a lot.

He's probably the best player (together with Ronaldo, and followed by Xavi) on international level since Maradona.

 

[Nuts]

Completely agree. I think Zidane is incredibly overrated. He played for 2 of the biggest club sides in world football and won 3 league titles. He was the talisman for France but the strength of their team was the defence.



Well then 18 would be wrong. Xavi was a key man for one of the greatest club sides of all time. Zidane was a very good player but both Juve and Real were better teams after he left.

Was France a better team after he left?

 

[Fortitude]

Ronaldo went a level or two up since then. On the last 6 years or so, only Luis Suarez (once) has outscored Messi and Ronaldo. Luis Ronaldo was outscored every year bar one. In the league (including the time when he was at PSV), Luis scored over 30 goals once in his career. Cristiano did it 7 times, Messi 5 times. On all competitions, Luis Ronaldo scored over 30 goals 4 times in his career, Cristiano did it 8 times, as did Messi. It is just too big a difference to say that put Luis in current Barca/Madrid and he will score as much. Likely, he wouldn't considering that he just scored too much less than those two freaks, and that he was getting outscored consistently from other players (something that doesn't happen with Messi/Cristiano). In addition, he wasn't playing for mugs, feck he played for Real Madrid (who had won 3 UCL in the five years before he went there, something that current Barca or Real couldn't do) and won a single league title and no UCL (a single semi final). He was a great player, but the image of the unstoppable force who was so much better than everyone and outscored everyone is just nostalgia and in reality it just didn't happen bar a year on his career when he was excellent but still couldn't manage to win the league (the team won the league the following season though, when Ronaldo left). Real Madrid also won the league the season when RVN replaced Ronaldo.

Jardim score 50 but they count 1.5 instead of 2 right?

Everytime you mention Ronaldo, your quality of posts dips beneath the floor. You're either incredibly disingenuous when it comes to him, or you are not informed. Do you have an issue with him?

Also, do you think C.Ronaldo and Messi would score outrageous amounts of goals in the Serie A that Ronaldo played in?

 

[Revan]

Everytime you mention Ronaldo, your quality of posts dips beneath the floor. You're either incredibly disingenuous when it comes to him, or you are not informed. Do you have an issue with him?

Not really. He is the first player I recognized in football, and together with Batistuta, my favorite player when I was a kid. Just that cannot understand why have people put him in God-like level when he wasn't. It is like people imagine a past when Ronaldo didn't get injured and broke every kind of record since that Barca year, while in fact, after the injuries he wasn't even the best striker in the world. At his peak (96-97 season IMO), he was the best player in the world but he never went close to that level again. The likes of Cristiano and especially Messi have been playing in that level for almost a decade.

Also, do you think C.Ronaldo and Messi would score outrageous amounts of goals in the Serie A that Ronaldo played in?

Providing that they would have played for one of the top teams in the league (like Luis did), I think that they would have outscored the likes of Bierhoff (Udinese), Amoroso (Udinese), Hubner (Piacenza), and Crespo (Lazio). Likely Trezeguet (Juve) and Shewchenko (Milan) too. There is no way that they would have been there 5 years and not be capocannoniero at least once.

 

[Grinner]

Van Nistelrooy seems to be overlooked in many lists of Premier League or Utd greats. 100 goals in his first 3 seasons, 150 goals in 219 games overall, which is a goal every 1.46 games. A better scoring ratio than Shearer or Henry could boast in England, or indeed any Utd legend either.

Amazing player and he missed doing more when he got that serious injury when SAF first tried to sign him. I always thought he had better technique than many gave him credit for too.

Still a filthy, cheating cnut though.

 

[JPRouve]

Who has him in their top 5?

No one, in France alone Platini is the best french player ever..

 

[We need an rvn]

To go back to the OP's opening state, I think Keane and Scholes' legacies have been embellished due to what they are like as commentators or what they say in the press. Their legacy as a United player, and their talent, has not deminished at all in my opinion. So many of us go on here about needing a Scholes / Keane - so I don't buy that argument one bit.

As for Ronaldo, you have got to be kidding me. He's a legend of footbal and in a number of eyes arguably one of the top 5 of all time!

Think you've had a mid-afternoon tipple and it's gone to your head mate!

 

[JPRouve]

Was France a better team after he left?

That's a little bit more complicated than that, France lost all its key players at the same time, Thuram, Vieira, Makélélé and Zidane.

 

[stevoc]

From United players Giggs is criminally underrated by some, mostly people who are not old enough to have seen him play regularly in his 20's and there is some serious revision going on with Rooney as well. You see is regularly said by some now he was never our best player which is nonsense.

 

[Revan]

From United players Giggs is criminally underrated by some, mostly people who are not old enough to have seen him play regularly in his 20's and there is some serious revision going on with Rooney as well. You see is regularly said by some now he was never our best player which is nonsense.

Really? That is a bit crazy if someone says so. He was clearly our best player from the moment Ronaldo left till we signed RVP (bar the first half of 2010-2011 season).

 

[Hojoon]

Zidane's legacy is understandable because his playing style is so pleasing to watch and he was at his best when the audience was the biggest. If you ask most hardcore French football fans I bet they'd say Platini is clearly their best number 10/attacking midfielder.

 

[stevoc]

Really? That is a bit crazy if someone says so. He was clearly our best player from the moment Ronaldo left till we signed RVP (bar the first half of 2010-2011 season).

Sadly mate yes some seem to believe it, or they are trying to convince themselves anyway. I have seen several people say it now, i asked someone last week who said it who our best player was between 2009 and 2012 they never replied. Obviously they knew how ridiculous it would be to justify that opinion.

 

[Cassidy]

Keane's legacy is overwhelmingly positive at least on here. There is usually a thread every couple of weeks about how he was underrated to which everyone agrees he was, so not sure he can be classed as underrrated or having his legacy tarnished.

Many people talk about him as some sort of limited player, destroyer type defensive midfield player who was a great leader but not technically that great. Which is completely untrue.

 

[Cassidy]

Zidane IMO legacy as a player exceeds what he actually was

 

[Frank Grimes]

Zidane dominated the whole Euro 2000 finals. He was a genuine great player, what are people on here talking about?

 

[sullydnl]

Agree on Zidane being overrated. Great player but no more so than, say, Xavi and Iniesta. Yet you sometimes see posters here talking about him as if he was a Messi or Ronaldo.

I'd also say that Redondo is either massively underrated by the world at large or massively overrated by some football donks here.

 

[Invictus]

Zidane dominated the whole Euro 2000 finals. He was a genuine great player, what are people on here talking about?

Yes, but that's not the point, though - you can be a great player, and still end up getting hyped beyond your station. A lot of football fans have a tendency to put him in a plane where he just doesn't belong. eg. from a poster that shall remain unnamed:

Tier 1: Maradona

Tier 2 : Cristiano, Messi

Tier 3 : Beckenbauer, Xavi, Zidane, Ronaldo, Platini, Di Stefano, Best, Cruyff

The list has other glaring flaws, too, but in what world is Zidane in the same tier as Beckenbauer and Cruyff and Di Stéfano? Something similar often happens with Ronaldinho - who is romanticized endlessly for his entertaining style of play, and how that style evokes greater emotion than the likes of Messi - and that argument is then used to embellish his legacy, even though the cumulative record of his career doesn't merit that elevation in stature.

 

[rcoobc]

Gabriel Heinze

He was pretty good

 

[Infordin]

Zidane dominated the whole Euro 2000 finals. He was a genuine great player, what are people on here talking about?

He was a great player, but when people like you say that he "dominated the whole Euros in 2000", that's when the overhyping comes into play. Totti was as good as Zidane in that tournament. Zidane was also very underwhelming in the final against Italy.

I would rate Xavi's 2008 and Iniesta's 2012 on par or better than Zidane's Euro 2000.

 

[schwalbe]

Probably Ballack, at least in germany. His last seasons(season?) at Leverkusen weren't exactly brilliant so a lot of people don't remember how good he actually was.

 

[Kamprad]

Sorry if im making this a Zidane thread but I just read that someone put Cristiano above him. Zidane wasn't a player that scored alot of goals or even made assist. But to constantly outplay everyone in big tight games whereas everyone else just tries to keep up is something Cristina cant do. She's the best player in the world, Male and Female, against small clubs. But please stop comparing her to great male players. In big tight games it isnt enough to play like Cristiano. At the best he can be a good forward those games but his pace and dribbling skills is just not enough. Thats where you see who is special. Not against Granada or osasuna.

 

[Wittmann45]

Gabriel Heinze

He was pretty good

So he is underrated?

Have no idea about Heinze's legacy tbh, but he did try to force through a move to Liverpool, so there's that

 

[berbatrick]

Pirlo.

Only when he started being 'very good despite his age' did people start to consider him one of the best midfielders in Europe.

Also, he looks cool. I genuinely think Carrick playing in Pirlo's place would have been at least as effective, but wouldn't have received the plaudits due to being less cool looking. Seriously.

He was the best non-defensive player, by far, in Italy's 2006 win. I'm a Carrick fan but Pirlo's a level or two above.

 

[berbatrick]

Zidane has been reduced I think after reading this thread. There's a reason this guy was the main man of France and Real Madrid. He was untouchable. And it wasn't because of his personality. I agree he often didn't bother turning up during less important games.

You should watch his game against Brazil in WC 2006. He was levels above everyone else. Like an adult playing with kids.

That was the game, and the performance, that got me hooked to football. Majestic is an understatement. He was floating around the pitch, playing his own game while everyone else was scrambling.
But Iniesta has consistently produced stuff at almost that level for so many games now, big and small.

 

[Infordin]

Sorry if im making this a Zidane thread but I just read that someone put Cristiano above him. Zidane wasn't a player that scored alot of goals or even made assist. But to constantly outplay everyone in big tight games whereas everyone else just tries to keep up is something Cristina cant do. She's the best player in the world, Male and Female, against small clubs. But please stop comparing her to great male players. In big tight games it isnt enough to play like Cristiano. At the best he can be a good forward those games but his pace and dribbling skills is just not enough. Thats where you see who is special. Not against Granada or osasuna.

Zidane was terrible in the 1997 and average in the 1998 CL final. It's amazing how both these finals are completely forgotten to perpetuate the myth that "Zidane consistently outplayed" everyone in big games.

Ronaldo's 2014 and 2016 finals against Atletico were no worse than Zidane's 1997 and 1998 finals for Juventus. Ronaldo was just as good in his best CL final (2008) as Zidane was in his best CL final (2002).

International career wise, Zidane's France was way better than Ronaldo's Portugal so that's not even worth comparing.

 

[Seveneric]

Keane's legacy being reduced seems to be something the OP has pulled out of thin air, and even if it's true, I'm a 100% sure it's a tiny, tiny minority. His praises still gets sung on here.

What might have reduced is how much people like him as a person, as some have felt he's unduly bitter, but his legacy has a player is still rock solid. Not sure where you got that from.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Maradona and Pele are big ones. Many won't have seen them play, so their legacies are being reduced. Maradona because of Messi (who to me is not even in the same bracket) and Pele (by the likes of Ronaldhino, Ronaldo, and potentially Neymar).

On the other hand the likes of Puskas, Di Stefano, Cruyff and Best have stayed at quite a consistent level.

What's your reasoning for Maradona being on a different bracket to Messi?

I think it's almost universally agreed they're both in the highest bracket of footballers.