Well 12 goals and 8 assists during his 195 games at Milan doesn't suggest he was quite as effective as you'd like to make out...
Revisionism: Which players have had their legacies embellished or reduced since retirement?
- Thread starter Fortitude
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Zidane, Scholes, Brazilian Ronaldo have become very overrated since they retired.
Giggs has been so underrated here during the last few years, that you might be thinking it is an-anti United forum.
Giggs has been so underrated here during the last few years, that you might be thinking it is an-anti United forum.
What do goals have to do with excellence as a deep lying playmaker? Fernando Redondo (another incredible holding midfielder) scored 5 goals in his entire Real Madrid career, and he was the best in the world at what he did for most of that period. He didn't even score a competitive goal for them for 3 seasons straight - including the year where he was brilliant against peak Keane, and Scholes:
Was he not quite as effective as I'd like to make out? Folks used this reductive goals and assists arguments with Modrić at Spurs too - without realizing that he was the one threading the balls that led to assists, and pulling the strings for his team. Milan's entire game ran through Pirlo - with him floating ahead of Maldini and Nesta, and he was the brains behind the team that reached 3 Champions League finals in 5 seasons, and was arguably the best European club for 2-3 seasons:
You guys in here are more informed and sensible when it comes to football but ask around, especially people in their early to late 20s, its staggering how highly regarded Zidane is.
Agreed, I'm not for a minute questioning his ability and level, I just believe he is the footballer whose great moments (WC, CL final goal etc.) has really put him a level above he actually is among football fans.
I think you might be on to something. There's plenty of people on here(I guess they might be more of my generation)who say it's more impressive winning the CL over the World Cup(Something I don't agree with), which I image has something to do with fact International football has on the whole been a bit stale.
For me it's not the World Cup or Champion's League final moments why I rate Zidane so highly, it's probably more from watching him totally run the show against us for Juve in 1996 and Real in 2003.
Are these "alternative facts?" he scored over 40 goals for Milan. Assists were also far higher however I'll admit most would've come from set pieces. reason being, he plays as a Regista. much like Xabi Alonso and Xavi. Their job is to play make from deep, like a quarter back. Orchestrate the play of the team and get the ball to dangerous players in the advance areas of the pitch. these guys jobs aren't to 'rack up assists,' that's for the dudes further forwards. I would've expected your knowledge of player roles to be better than this.
Of all the names to be mentioned here...really? When someone is a mainstay in the most dominant team in the country for nearly 10 years and no one ever questions their position in the line-up nor did their form ever dip to warrant being dropped maybe it's because they are that good.
Reduced:
- Paul Ince
- Sol Campbell - Both have come out with some absolute madness regarding black managers. Campbell especially seems absolutely tapped and seems to believe in positive racism in that he should be granted positions of power that he isn't qualified for simply on the basis of being black and having played for England.
Yeah I agree with that. And everyone seems to be an expert on him. They've seen the highlights and determine he's a level above. I doubt they watched him week to week.
For some on here Carrick is the second coming, rather than a capable but not quite top level midfielder.
Came in here to post this myself, worth remembering he was also quite inconsistent.
Seems they may well be 'alternative facts' however they were quoted in good faith: https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=4335
Still doesn't detract from my opinion that he was subsequently overrated. I also happen to be of the opinion that the deepest lying player of a midfield three, whether an enforcer or a DLP is the easiest job on the pitch.
A lot of centerbacks of the 90s and early 00s have been talked up way too much when comparing them to today's generation of centerbacks. While defenders like Ramos or boateng are reduced to being brain dead athletic players who can play nice long balls but have plenty of errors in their game the old center back generation is regarded as some sort of semi god class of defenders who didn't do much with the ball but where flawless in their defending without any mistakes. Truth is, defending nowadays has become a lot harder for centerbacks with the high defensive line and more tasks expected like playmaking etc. and the likes of Cannavaro, thuram or maldini made plenty of mistakes as well.
In terms of legacy reduced I'd say Owen Hargreaves. Him being a horrible commentator, a shit pundit and ending his career as a crock has led to no one rating him at all it seems. People in England hate him because he played for united and united fans hate him because he was permanent injured after his first year. However he has won the cl with two teams, played on the highest level for two top European teams, was a vital part in uniteds double in 2008 and one of the few players who showed up for England's national team during the golden era.
In terms of legacy reduced I'd say Owen Hargreaves. Him being a horrible commentator, a shit pundit and ending his career as a crock has led to no one rating him at all it seems. People in England hate him because he played for united and united fans hate him because he was permanent injured after his first year. However he has won the cl with two teams, played on the highest level for two top European teams, was a vital part in uniteds double in 2008 and one of the few players who showed up for England's national team during the golden era.
quite. Also he "should" have been England captain for 10 years but wasn't due to being black.
I cited ESPN for his stats. And if DLP was soooo easy, there would've been more truly class ones outside of the usual Pirlo, Xavi Alonso, Xavi, Redondo in the last 15 years or so. Also, how many teams actually play with an out and out DLP? most prefer a destroyer. It is a very difficult role trust me.
no fecking way. Carrick is not nowhere near as good as Pirlo as a DLP.. jesus some of the shite you have to read on here.
Yea, I absolutely loved Hargreaves as a player when he was fit, I genuinely thought he had everything to be a dominant centre mid. Pace, work rate, passing, technique, crossing ability and a deadly free kick. I never hated him for being injured, but once he went to City and started making out United wrecked his career and his subsequent hatred of us in his awful commentaries I can't look at him with any fondness.
No way, in fact it is one of the hardest, because once you lose the ball there, you put your team in great danger, only player with the highest level of composure can play there, one bad touch in that position and you basically give the opponent a big chance for a goal
Platini's rep reduced because of all the FIFA silliness. But he was absolutely world class. Several Utd players of the era said he was the best midfielder they ever played against. Features in the 84 CWC game.
I'd love to be driven by Denis Irwin. 
Zidane had a knack for showing up on the big stage and did so regularly and to a very high level. Some of his performances in the latter stages of tournaments were incredible. I think a lot of people rate him based on this, which is understandable. He is probably slightly overrated overall, though, in terms of his consistent, dominant performances on a weekly basis.
Denis was a minimum of 7/10 every game, often going higher than that. He had incredible consistency for us.
His maximum level was lower than a few of his peers, but he made up for it with high quality, consistency.
I think Saha is a little overrated. That tends to happen with players that are very injury prone, but people tend to forget how inconsistent his finishing was and how frustrating he could be as the main striker
He was talented, he added a unique dimension to the attack and he fit well into a system that brought out the best in players like Rooney and Ronaldo, but I think his overall talent is overrated on here
He was talented, he added a unique dimension to the attack and he fit well into a system that brought out the best in players like Rooney and Ronaldo, but I think his overall talent is overrated on here
I think he meant the opposite - that his legacy has been reduced. Not sure. @Xeno
Not enough love on here for Park. He was one of my favorite players in his prime.
Him not playing in 2008 was a travesty. Also, I bet we'd have beaten Pompey if he'd played
We all know the way to spoil a good legacy is by doing something else you're terrible at - so that your legacy and face gets associated with that instead.
Here's the guide to feck up your legacy:
Become a bell-end in the media
Had a great legacy? Don't worry, some bitter comments on TV can adjust that.
Unravel the mystery
People thought you were mysterious? something to aspire to? Something classy? The quiet hero?
Don't worry, you can show the world by opening your mouth. Just put in average tv-appearances week after week on SkySports and remember to bash your own team so you seem extra-balanced and unbiased.
Do a slow-regressing career stop.
Worried that people will remember you too much? Don't worry, you can fade your name by signing for an Australian, Chinese or Indian team and play there until you're 42.
Aspire to be something new - something different - a terrible manager
Born talented? Who says it's limited to just football? You can be a manager too. Everybody can be the GOAT. You can do it, put your ass into it. Player/manager-nepotism will work wonders to smash that legacy.
All you can eat
Like your name Luis Nazario de Lima Ronaldo? Don't worry. Fat-Ronaldo is much shorter to remember.
Here's the guide to feck up your legacy:
Become a bell-end in the media
Had a great legacy? Don't worry, some bitter comments on TV can adjust that.
Unravel the mystery
People thought you were mysterious? something to aspire to? Something classy? The quiet hero?
Don't worry, you can show the world by opening your mouth. Just put in average tv-appearances week after week on SkySports and remember to bash your own team so you seem extra-balanced and unbiased.
Do a slow-regressing career stop.
Worried that people will remember you too much? Don't worry, you can fade your name by signing for an Australian, Chinese or Indian team and play there until you're 42.
Aspire to be something new - something different - a terrible manager
Born talented? Who says it's limited to just football? You can be a manager too. Everybody can be the GOAT. You can do it, put your ass into it. Player/manager-nepotism will work wonders to smash that legacy.
All you can eat
Like your name Luis Nazario de Lima Ronaldo? Don't worry. Fat-Ronaldo is much shorter to remember.
Thing about zidane was he was always a big game player.
People will always remember his goal against bayer leverkusen in that cl final and
his world cup performances where he really bossed the biggest games.
Which to be fair is pretty important in its own right, as is that consistency
Beckham's footballing ability is somewhat under-estimated due to the gimmicky, fashion brand perception of him.
Maradona..
Exactly this. He was a once in multiple generation striker, who unfortunately played close to the generation of Portuguese Ronaldo, and, as said Messi.
From our own point of view prob Ole. Think he's just a much loved player that we prob look back fondly and overrate him a bit, obviously scored some huge goals for us but was never quite good enough to earn a starting spot and we did try sell him a few times and he wouldn't go which some players get slaughtered for.
Compare Iniesta's career and Zidane, you will notice that there are strong arguments that Iniesta is on his level and is just as much of a big game player. But if you ask the average person they would not agree. Try asking yourself and you will notice it.
Agree with Zidane and Scholes to an extent, but Brazilian Ronaldo? No way. He was absolutely exceptional, especially in his early years. Stick him up front for Barca or Real today when he was in his prime and he'd equal or exceed Messi or CR7s goal tally.
Curious about this myself... anyone old enough here to have watched them live?
Carrick hasn't retired yet but you read redcafe and you'd think he's been one of our greats and a force to be reckoned with in european football. I presume it will only get worse when he retires
I can see the argument that Keane is under-appreciated. On the opposite scale - to an extent I would say Scholes since he has been put up to deity status since he first retired.