Rio's words on Kane and Lukaku: A Real No. 9

[youngrell]

Lukaku is probably more useful on the right than he is upfront.

Martial or Alexis should play up front with the other on the left.

I've been having thoughts about this myself. It seems strange because with Lukaku's build and playing style you would expect him to be central, but the few times he's been asked to move to the right in games, he's looked really useful.

He can deliver a very good cross or pass in field with his left foot and he has more room to control the ball when receiving it. He's also more likely to receive the ball on the half turn or running onto it, rather than with his back to goal where he is not the best.

 

[mancan92]

I think everyone knows that Kane is a better player than Lukaku but some of the shit thrown at Lukaku in this thread is laughable and damn right idiotic. The talk before the Spurs game was how well Lukaku has improved his general play, he had a bad game against Spurs along with 9 other players.

It happens from time to time.

He has a bad game against all the top 10 clubs that's the point. Any decent defender has him in their pocket.

 

[Fergus' son]

Really hope Lukaku gets sold asap.

 

[roonster09]

He has a bad game against all the top 10 clubs that's the point. Any decent defender has him in their pocket.

That's nonsense.

He was good against Arsenal, he created so many superb chances against Leicester, he scored and created assist against Everton, he scored our only goal against Bournemouth, assisted only goal against Burnley with very good play.

That's 6-10 teams.

If you go 11, Watford, he assisted Martial's goal and played well.
12. West ham - scored first 2 goals against them
13. Palace - scored against them too.
14 Newcastle - Scored against them and created Pogba's goal with superb cross to Rashford.


So yeah, your post is completely wrong.

 

[Andrew~]

This argument is rather like buying a pizza and then asking it why it isn't a salad. Lukaku is not as good as Kane, it was true when United bought him and it's still true now - he's still a good player though.

 

[Marcky411]

It depends how Aguero scored the header goals. I have already explained that Lukaku scored those headers and other goals from crossings by just standing in the box and out-muscle defenders, so that means his strength and winning headers have been his main assets for him.



The hoofed ball isn't the main issue, we don't play hoofed ball at half way in all our games so far against top 10 sides this season, you are judging our playing style based on one game only against Spurs. We have played football with our feet in a lot of games and Lukaku has failed to score in those games. Positioning & his movement have been the issue for him, he doesn't give option for our midfielders or attacking midfielders to give him service. Even when we give him through ball, his run timing always late. No intelligence at all, all he expects is waiting & receiving the ball straight to him instead of trying to make a lot of good run and find his space.

You look at an example of our former goal poacher who isn't technically top class like Chicharito, the guy knows and loves to make run, find space and give option for our players to give him service. Sir Alex mentioned in his book that in 12/13 he wants his midfielder always go for early pass to split the defense by getting the best out of RVP's mobility and killer instinct. Spurs first goal basically sums up the mobility of Kane, straight kick off, Kane made the run, early pass from Vertonghen and basically split our defense. You look at Lukaku, he's not mobile enough, as a result our players can't give him early passes and defenders found it easy to mark Lukaku.

And players who aren't mobile like Zlatan last season & Berbatov at least technically top class. While Lukaku are both not technically top class & not mobile. Which makes things difficult for him. He has too many limitation to be striker in top club.

I fully agree with your analysis of Lukaku and I too don't think he will ever reach the level of a top (9) striker, body wise to big and clumsy to have great movement. Even Jose said a while ago he was bulking up to much and therefore was losing his speed, (thus had to slim down) which at this moment in time is his only true real asset. As much as Lukaku wouldn't want to hear of it I find some of his best play has come when he has been out on the right, he seems to be have more space/time to take on defenders and has got a good pass/cross in him.

 

[mancan92]

That's nonsense.

He was good against Arsenal, he created so many superb chances against Leicester, he scored and created assist against Everton, he scored our only goal against Bournemouth, assisted only goal against Burnley with very good play.

That's 6-10 teams.

If you go 11, Watford, he assisted Martial's goal and played well.
12. West ham - scored first 2 goals against them
13. Palace - scored against them too.
14 Newcastle - Scored against them and created Pogba's goal with superb cross to Rashford.


So yeah, your post is completely wrong.

Why are you going to teams outside the top 10 when I said top 10.
Everton weren't in the top 10 when we played them. Leicester he created one chance for martial the rest of the time Morgan had him all game.

So that's 3 top 10 games he actually made a influence in and none of them were against the top 5-6 teams.

 

[roonster09]

Why are you going to teams outside the top 10 when I said top 10.
Everton weren't in the top 10 when we played them. Leicester he created one chance for martial the rest of the time Morgan had him all game.

So that's 3 top 10 games he actually made a influence in and none of them were against the top 5-6 teams.

Leicester he created 1 chance? You need to rewatch the game.

I even posted 6-10 too as you said top 10. Oh now it's none against top 5-6

 

[NotoriousISSY]

He was absolutely woeful against Spurs.

I’ve given him BoD for the most part of this season, but his inability to match up to Spurs’ centre backs physically was a real letdown.

He really needs to up his game in the big games. For a big guy, I have to say I’m disappointed at his inability to be an outlet for us. As Rio said, Kane at the other side stood up to everyone and made our defenders shit themselves. Lukaku can do that, but Lukaku isn’t doing that.

 

[mancan92]

Leicester he created 1 chance? You need to rewatch the game.

I even posted 6-10 too as you said top 10. Oh now it's none against top 5-6

Everton weren't top 10 when we played them so that doesn't count. Let's be realistic tho none of the teams you posted are top teams. He only really had an influence in those 3 games. Even against Bournemouth he create d the chance but the rest of his game was poor anyway.

 

[roonster09]

Everton weren't top 10 when we played them so that doesn't count. Let's be realistic tho none of the teams you posted are top teams. He only really had an influence in those 3 games. Even against Bournemouth he create d the chance but the rest of his game was poor anyway.

So Chelsea winning against Spurs don't count as big match win because they were outside top 6 at that point, is that how it works?

He scored against Southampton when they were 9th, so yeah change Southampton for Everton going by your way.

Anyways I agree he was poor against top teams like City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs but when you say top 10 then you are just wrong. Simple as that.

 

[mancan92]

So Chelsea winning against Spurs don't count as big match win because they were outside top 6 at that point, is that how it works?

He scored against Southampton when they were 9th, so yeah change Southampton for Everton going by your way.

Anyways I agree he was poor against top teams like City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs but when you say top 10 then you are just wrong. Simple as that.

I'm not wrong though. He isn't influential in enough matches against top teams. The point you argue is completely pedantic and it just blindly ignores the main issue. Against solid teams he isn't good enough and is easily handled.

 

[giorno]

Agreed, he doesn't appear lazy but heavy. He is clearly a good athlete and his stamina is incredible with that type of body but if he was lighter and concentrated on mastering off the ball movements, he could become very good. That's only my opinion though.

For the type of player he is, energy is important. Cavani is so good because he's relentless, defenders can never take their eyes off him and he keeps them busy all the time, even when he appears to be doing nothing. Lukaku is not active enough, there are way too many periods during games where he's recovering and doing nothing, and is no threat to the defence

 

[mitchmouse]

I agree that Lukaku doesn't get the service Kane does but Rom's first touch can be schoolboyish. Ball bounces off him and away from him. we cannot play one up front when it is him

 

[roonster09]

I'm not wrong though. He isn't influential in enough matches against top teams. The point you argue is completely pedantic and it just blindly ignores the main issue. Against solid teams he isn't good enough and is easily handled.

Your post

He has a bad game against all the top 10 clubs that's the point. Any decent defender has him in their pocket.

and you are saying you are not wrong and I'm pedantic. Maybe you need to learn to post without hyperbole?

 

[mancan92]

Your post


and you are saying you are not wrong and I'm pedantic. Maybe you need to learn to post without hyperbole?

Everyone hyperboles but the point is there and really I could have just said top 6 and the point would have been perfect. Reguardless of that he has scored 2 goals against top 10 opponents this season in 12 games which is a terrible record for any striker let alone one that is meant to be top class.

 

[J_Red 11]

I'm not wrong though. He isn't influential in enough matches against top teams. The point you argue is completely pedantic and it just blindly ignores the main issue. Against solid teams he isn't good enough and is easily handled.

Just ignore him, no point to argue with him, if he has no word to counter the argument he will say "we can agree & disagree". It's hard to believe how can someone defend players who has been so limited and struggle to make impact. Everton was so poor & couldn't get a win this season when Koeman was in charge and Arsenal were pretty much shocking on that day, even Arsenal fans are still crying out loud to sign new midfielders & defenders.

I don't expect someone with no technical gifted will improve his technique, but at least I want Lukaku to improve his movement since it's the aspect which he can improve since he has pace. However if he can't improve, I don't see us going forward with him without spending million and million again and signing more quality players just to give him Beckham's quality of service. At this current state, Lukaku is just the quick version of Heskey or Carroll. We will struggle to play against a team who press high if our striker is not mobile enough for quick pass and not technical enough to handle high press.

 

[roonster09]

Everyone hyperboles but the point is there and really I could have just said top 6 and the point would have been perfect. Reguardless of that he has scored 2 goals against top 10 opponents this season in 12 games which is a terrible record for any striker let alone one that is meant to be top class.

And 3 assists, 2 of them earned 6 points. So 5 goals and assists in 12 games is not a terrible record, it's average.

 

[witchtrials]

He started the season as a £75 million player but now he's a "£90 million lump" etc. Did I miss something? Seems like whenever a player is not performing we just chuck another £10 million on to the fee - are we paying underperformance bonuses to selling clubs or something? Same thing happened with Martial who arrived for £40-something million and by the end of his bad season last year was being derided on these boards as a £60 million flop.

 

[roonster09]

Just ignore him, no point to argue with him, if he has no word to counter the argument he will say "we can agree & disagree". .

Says the guys who posts "yeah he played well against Arsenal but they are clueless" and you expect me to argue endless time saying same thing again and again?

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

He started the season as a £75 million player but now he's a "£90 million lump" etc. Did I miss something? Seems like whenever a player is not performing we just chuck another £10 million on to the fee - are we paying underperformance bonuses to selling clubs or something? Same thing happened with Martial who arrived for £40-something million and by the end of his bad season last year was being derided on these boards as a £60 million flop.

75m up front+ 5m in add-ons. Rooney going the other way valued at 10m.

It was widely reported.

 

[NJM78]

Kane is so much better but would cost so much more. No real debate. I think Kane is probably in the top 3 strikers in Europe, would love him to lead our line but unless we pay like 200m there is no chance.

 

[J_Red 11]

Says the guys who posts "yeah he played well against Arsenal but they are clueless" and you expect me to argue endless time saying same thing again and again?

Why do you think the fans want to replace Ramsey, Xhaka and replace their centre backs with Jonny Evans so badly? You know they were very bad in that game but you couldn't even admit it because you have no any logic sense to defend Lukaku.

It's pointless as well when you start an argument with a new guy because at the end of the day you will argue endless with them since you are too stubborn to admit something.

 

[Stacks]

If no one is available for pass then you are pointing finger at the wrong player. When Matic has the ball near the box, if he is hoofing the ball then how can Kane fix that.

ManUtd lack balls to pass the ball, or tbf Jose's team lack balls to pass the ball from the back.

Only very few times ball was played to Lukaku's feet and he kept the ball and played the passes.

the mindset is that if you do that, you are more likely to make mistakes

Winning the headers and strength is not Lukaku's biggest asset. It's his weakness.

He also has pass completion of 53% in games vs our rivals so you could point to other weaknesses.

 

[roonster09]

Why do you think the fans want to replace Ramsey, Xhaka and replace their centre backs with Jonny Evans so badly? You know they were very bad in that game but you couldn't even admit it because you have no any logic sense to defend Lukaku.

So is the logic we are going to use now? Many ManUtd fans want to replace Smalling and Jones, does that mean Kane's performance against us won't count? Liverpool fans hate the sight of Lovren, so obviously Kane's brilliant performance against Liverpool shouldn't count? That's just pathetic logic.

Not sure what Arsenal fans you have talked or read, the ones I have seen don't want Evans and think Ramsey is good player for them.

When someone comes up with pathetic logic to downplay good performances that's the time to drop arguements and that's why I did, not because you came up with some Einstein level formula.

 

[roonster09]

the mindset is that if you do that, you are more likely to make mistakes

He also has pass completion of 53% in games vs our rivals so you could point to other weaknesses.

Pass completion includes headers, so is it surprising that it's so low?

 

[Stacks]

Pass completion includes headers, so is it surprising that it's so low?

I'm not sure to be honest. There are separate stats for aerial duels. Passing has to be intentional and aimed. I do feel the system/manager is partly to blame for his woes, as he doesn't really fit the profile of his past strikers and then leaves him isolated.

 

[roonster09]

I'm not sure to be honest. There are separate stats for aerial duels. Passing has to be intentional and aimed. I do feel the system/manager is partly to blame for his woes, as he doesn't really fit the profile of his past strikers and then leaves him isolated.

I have already posted the definition and how many aerial duels he was involved in. Only crosses are not counted.

PASSES
Squawka counts the following as Passes and therefore includes the events it in it's calculation of Pass Accuracy:

• Key Passes & Assists
• Headed Passes
• Through Balls
• Long balls (over 35 yards)
• Ground passes

We don't count the following as Passes and therefore don't include the events in our calculation of Pass Accuracy:

• Crosses
• Free-Kicks
• Corners
• Throw-Ins
• Keeper Throws
• Goal Kicks

N.B. Crosses and Corners are counted separately and Goalkeepers have their own separate distribution statistics. Also, Key Passes & Assists that are subsidiaries of the above are not included in our calculation of Pass Accuracy.

 

[Trigg]

He has a bad game against all the top 10 clubs that's the point. Any decent defender has him in their pocket.

I don't think thats true, but I can't be arsed to look it up.

I will say though, that in the big matches he's not really made a deciding factor. But the one thing in common is that we've been pretty shit as a team in the big 'top 4' matches.

 

[redflair]

I think he's genereally done well - but he lacks intensity.

I'm not sure how that ever can be solved.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sanchez starts a lot more games than we think at centre forward.

 

[witchtrials]

75m up front+ 5m in add-ons. Rooney going the other way valued at 10m.

It was widely reported.

What add-ons has he triggered?

 

[nonso]

Not lukaku's biggest fan but this is just a load of nonsense, what exactly did Kane do that warrants this "on another level to lukaku" praise the media is singing. for the record he fluffed all the chances that fell to him or is this another case of silent domination.how is lukaku mean't to bring others into play when his midfield couldn't string 2 passes together(pogba being the main culprit).
You might say Kane is better than lukaku but it shouldn't be on the basis of what happened in our match with Tottenham.
For all lukaku's fault in that match the level of criticism he is getting currently is absolutely ridiculous and by the way why is the media not singing son and dembele's praise they were absolutely terrific.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

What add-ons has he triggered?

Presumably PL appearance, number of goals scored? Everton wouldn't be big enough mugs to agree to a PL/CL win add on.

Even so, call him a 85m striker if you want, if that 5m unpaid add-ons make any difference.

 

[Dec9003]

I'm unsure as to whether or not anyone has touched on this, but I think a lot of Lukakus problem is similar to the problem Depay had in his time here.
He's obviously a very big guy, not only in height but in his build, but I think all the weightlifting he quite obviously does just makes him too heavy. He doesn't have a proper footballers build. I'm not saying he needs to be really slim because he won't ever be, but how can you be expected to get the ball, turn a player and sprint off when he's so heavy, no wonder he looks like he turns like a crane.
I think if he slimmed down a bit, put down the weights and spoke to one of United Nutritionists then he'd be far better off. When the ball comes into the box he'd have the energy to actually contend for it.
At the minute I don't think calling him the fat chicarito would be too far off the mark.

 

[J_Red 11]

So is the logic we are going to use now? Many ManUtd fans want to replace Smalling and Jones, does that mean Kane's performance against us won't count? Liverpool fans hate the sight of Lovren, so obviously Kane's brilliant performance against Liverpool shouldn't count? That's just pathetic logic.

Not sure what Arsenal fans you have talked or read, the ones I have seen don't want Evans and think Ramsey is good player for them.

When someone comes up with pathetic logic to downplay good performances that's the time to drop arguements and that's why I did, not because you came up with some Einstein level formula.

You are missing a lot of my point here,

My main point is, Lukaku can't handle high pressure play, Arsenal didn't press us in that game, their defense and both Ramsey & Xhaka were all over the place like headless chicken when we started launch counter attack.

My other point of mentioning why the fans want to replace them are because you spoke like Arsenal has been very good defensively and poor in only one game against us.The fact is, defensively they have been shocking this season. Their defense can't defend properly, not just me and Arsenal fans who think the same, other football fans who have watched them play, all pundits and Troy Deeney were saying the same thing as well. If you never watch Arsenal games apart from against United this season I can understand that you have no clue how terrible their defense and Xhaka was headless chicken and always out of position as their holding midfielder.

My logic isn't pathetic, it's fact. You can ask everyone how poor Arsenal defensively and how poor Lukaku has been when we are playing against teams with high pressure. You need to start watching more football games mate to realise that football isn't just about Manchester United alone. You don't even know how poor Arsenal defensively sums it up.

I don't know when did you talk to Arsenal fans, but I think you need to start watching some of their games mate. Last summer they didn't want Evans, but this January they very desperate want Evans because they need to improve their defense. Ramsey is now dropped for Elneny recently mate, he only played against Swansea because Wilshere was injured/illness.

 

[sincher]

I honestly don't understand the issue with Lukaku. Surely we all knew exactly the player he was, and he is doing exactly what was expected of him?

 

[roonster09]

You are missing a lot of my point here,

My main point is, Lukaku can't handle high pressure play, Arsenal didn't press us in that game, their defense and both Ramsey & Xhaka were all over the place like headless chicken when we started launch counter attack.

My other point of mentioning why the fans want to replace them are because you spoke like Arsenal has been very good defensively and poor in only one game against us.The fact is, defensively they have been shocking this season. Their defense can't defend properly, not just me and Arsenal fans who think the same, other football fans who have watched them play, all pundits and Troy Deeney were saying the same thing as well. If you never watch Arsenal games apart from against United this season I can understand that you have no clue how terrible their defense and Xhaka was headless chicken and always out of position as their holding midfielder.

My logic isn't pathetic, it's fact. You can ask everyone how poor Arsenal defensively and how poor Lukaku has been when we are playing against teams with high pressure. You need to start watching more football games mate to realise that football isn't just about Manchester United alone. You don't even know how poor Arsenal defensively sums it up.

I don't know when did you talk to Arsenal fans, but I think you need to start watching some of their games mate. Last summer they didn't want Evans, but this January they very desperate want Evans because they need to improve their defense. Ramsey is now dropped for Elneny recently mate, he only played against Swansea because Wilshere was injured/illness.

These kind of pathetic points don't help,

Arsenal had perfect record when we beat them, winning 7 out of 7 games conceding just 4 goals 3 of which came in the first game. So their record was 1 goal in 6 games at home.

Yeah your logic is poor. If your logic is used for every player then no player should ever be praised as fans always complain about their teams if they are not winning leagues.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The caf loves a scapegoat and look like Lukaku's this season's John O'Shea. He wasn't even that poor against Spurs. Rio's talking about the ball sticking to Kane but it sure as hell wouldn't stick to him as often if he was getting the sort of passes Lukaku had to try and work with for most of the game.


I see very little wrong in that performance. It's exactly what you'd expect from a lone striker in a game where his team is getting utterly dominated in midfield and constantly have to resort to passing the ball back to the keeper to lump it in his general direction. There were many things wrong against Spurs and anyone who thinks the performance of Lukaku is the most important of these things really needs to watch the game again.

 

[roonster09]

The caf loves a scapegoat and look like Lukaku's this season's John O'Shea. He wasn't even that poor against Spurs. Rio's talking about the ball sticking to Kane but it sure as hell wouldn't stick to him as often if he was getting the sort of passes Lukaku had to try and work with for most of the game.


I see very little wrong in that performance. It's exactly what you'd expect from a lone striker in a game where his team is getting utterly dominated in midfield and constantly have to resort to passing the ball back to the keeper to lump it in his general direction. There were many things wrong against Spurs and anyone who thinks the performance of Lukaku is the most important of these things really needs to watch the game again.

Exactly. Someone on reddit even made every pass attempt (which might not be covered in video as it covers only the bits he touched the ball) to Lukaku, it's just pathetic how poorly and aimlessly we just hoofed it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/7umpvz/lukaku_hold_up_play/

 

[witchtrials]

Presumably PL appearance, number of goals scored? Everton wouldn't be big enough mugs to agree to a PL/CL win add on.

Even so, call him a 85m striker if you want, if that 5m unpaid add-ons make any difference.

I find it quite hard to believe that £5m of add-on clauses would be triggered by 24 appearances and 11 goals.

As for Rooney, the attribution of £10 million is clearly pretty arbitrary as the club clearly wanted him off the payroll. So at this pount £75 millon plus a player we wanted rid of. Still no bargain by any means but I don't see the need for constant hyperbole.