How many times did you see him throw punches at his team mates while playing?
You seriously need to stop taking everything he says as literal or you will just keep making yourself look foolish
Roy Keane
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How many times did you see him throw punches at his team mates while playing?
You seriously need to stop taking everything he says as literal or you will just keep making yourself look foolish
You have misunderstood his turn of phrase. He does not literally want people to punch DDG.
This really shouldn't need to be said
.Great take!
“Get stuck in” school...sign me up!
This guy has it all figured out!
Fair enough. I'll ignore what he says.
I'm not saying he'd literally have punched DDG. I'm saying that was his main takeaway from the game. Everything he says is about being aggressive and physical. That's it. Sounds pretty caveman to me.You have misunderstood his turn of phrase. He does not literally want people to punch DDG.
This really shouldn't need to be said
He has repeatedly bombed as a manager and has constantly fought people throughout his career. He does prefer being aggressive over being smart and it costs him.
I missed when getting reds was a sign of character and not a sign of being a moron.Great take!
“Get stuck in” school...sign me up!
This guy has it all figured out!
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How do you rate Keane as a player?
Have you seen the stats recently on the number of home games that were lost under Ferguson. 405 games played and around 20 lost, or something similar, someone feel free to correct me on that.
How many of those losses do you think Keane was on the pitch for? If he was on the losing side twice at Old Trafford I'd be shocked. I'm not saying its all down to Keane but that's the type of mentality you need in players if you want to create stats like that. Fighters. Sparky, Robbo, Choccy, Bruce, Keane, Stam, Butt, Scholes, Schmeichel, Cole, Sheringham, Rooney, the list goes on. All those players were first and foremost fighters, you could outplay them on a good day but you would never outwork them or beat them because they gave up. They never gave up and all of them would kick out at the opponent when necessary. I would hate to watch the kind of football your mentality would produce. You're calling Keane a caveman but yet you can't even understand the nuances of the English language. Typical millenial.
Do you honestly if the roles were reversed Guardiola’s tactical input to rectify the situation would be “smash one of them very hard”
There’s a few things you can do in that situation, but desire wasn’t the issue. City were set up much better, and United couldn’t even get close. Recklessly charging in and getting yourself sent off would leave your team a man down against a side which is already dominating the ball without any issue.
Sometimes it can be good to leave in a crunching tackle, or play on the edge, this wasn’t one of those games.
When you think about it. There's a reason those guys were like that. They had to fight to get to the top, Roy even wrote letters to clubs asking for trials. They had built their entire careers on making it, they had to or they had nothing to fall back on. So when they got there they fought and worked even harder to stay there and make sure they did as much as possible to win.
Current players are coddled and cocooned in acacdemies from the age of 8. They never want for anything they just expect it, from having school paid for, the easy life all the way through etc etc. Yes they've made sacrifices. But, because of how they come through the academies when they do make it. It doesn't feel like a major achievement or the start of anything it's just like that's it, I've done it, I've made it. They've got piles of money already in the bank, there is no fear of failure, nothing to drive them on. They're pretty much set for life before they even kick a ball for Utd.
Jamie Vardy is a great modern example, he works his socks off every game like he did to get where he is. Compare that to players like Rashford, Greenwood or Shaw walking and strolling through games. Imagine if they had Vardy's work rate and desire, that's what is missing the desire and motivation to work hard. These guys just don't have it.
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Some of the players I mentioned went through academies from an early age, I don't think that's the problem. You can have all those mental attributes and come through academies at a young age.
Personally I think it comes from the manager. A team is built in their image. Fergusons teams were fighters because he was a fighter.
He chose players based on that mental toughness, because that's who he was and what he expected. I can only imagine what Ole and his coaching team are saying to this group for them to think how they apply themselves sometimes is acceptable. Caveman approach these days it seems.
Yes, but even in those days academy or not you had nothing to fall back on if you didn't make it. It was football or nothing. You look at all the top teams in England. How many players have they produced from academies in the last 20 years that you could say have the application and desire of any of those players?
I edited this into my original comment and I took it out. But I think this is where Liverpool's and Klopp's fitness tests work best, if you aren't willing or capable or working hard enough you will not play. I couldn't find anything that says Utd do anything similar.
Have to agree to be honest. Don't get me wrong, our current squad and management have very little character, Roy has more of it in his big toe than the rest of these weak feckers combined. That said everything he talks about is a tad aggressive and based in 'toughness.'
I love Keano but he likes to dramatize every United topic to the point where it's obvious Sky have asked him to do so. Still stops short of asking for Ole to get the sack though.
Keane's rants about passion and desire just prove why he can't get a job in management.
What United need right now is coaching, organisation, repetition, direction. Just going on about passion, running, 'elite mentality' just misunderstands the issues we have.
What United need right now is coaching, organisation, repetition, direction. Just going on about passion, running, 'elite mentality' just misunderstands the issues we have.
This probably sounds a little crazy, but I honestly think pat of it is Keane doesn't know why he was such an amazing player. When you listen to him talk about his playing days he underrates his own ability, and I get the sense that he thinks that if every player just applied themselves the way he did they could achieve a similar level, but he was incredibly talented as well as very hard working. Few players have the potential to match him.
Yeah, it’s a shame that even in our lowest moment Keane could no longer be considered as a caretaker manager. It might have worked in the past on some level when we were all angry at the players but this time it’s not on them.
I love Keano. One of the best I've ever seen play for us. And you can tell by the passion he showed on Saturday how frustrated he is with how poor we are at the moment. I'd give anything for a young Keane in the middle of our midfield. Colossus of a player.
I'd take Roy Keane as Manager. I think the reason they clashed is because they were SO alike. We need that drive and inspiration from a Manager right now.
I see what you mean. £50,000 a week when you've basically played 3 times I'm the senior team and done feck all. Must go straight to some players heads, I can imagine the effect it might even have on me, so I'm not saying that in a derogatory way towards any player, just a fact. £50,000 a week for a year is £2.6 million. You could retire on that if you really wanted to. It would definitely have a detrimental affect on my mental performance at work if I had that kind of money in the bank. What am I really playing for then?
Funny how many think that Keano being tough is a problem...being a elite sportsperson is though in any aspect of it. We have a squad devoted of real leaders and many of them could benefit from having a kick up the arse once in a while. Simone, Klopp,Allegri,Conte and Guardiola are all tough characters and it show´s in their teams. They are tough in different way´s but you do not get away with bullshit in the form of low workrate and application like at Man Utd. Bryan Robson was my favourite player and not least because he always gave his best in every game and went into every duel at full throttle. How many of United current players do that? The teams of those managers I mentioned here before all work their socks off and outrun/outwork us in every aspect. Why? Because they know the high bar set by their managers and what will happen if they do not play according to their standards...they will not play..simple as that. I would love to see Keano as part of the coaching setup at United to keep the players on their toes...he´s a highly intelligent man and would call Pogba and co out for their lack of commitment and workrate
I know only like 1% of players ever make professional and even less make it to the PL. But it has to be a mental thing, if you get that far you have to have the ability. There's no doubt about that, but for some being just good enough is all that matters.
Probably just like everyday folk who are happy to sit on a job because they are comfortable with it, close to home and gives them a easy ride. They make enough money and are happy to come in on time and leave on time but will never strive for more, just do enough to keep their head above water. They will want more money occasionally but you can fcuk off if you think they'll do more work.
Have you seen Bruno's body language of late? I'm not saying he doesn't care but he needs to up his game.
No he didn't, he said that if you're not playing well, you can at least work hard and be up for the fight.
Might be something in that. Football was also much simpler in the 90s. Sometimes graft, effort and commitment was all it took to win a game of football. Nowadays you can have all of those things in abundance, but if you are playing a team like City who are drilled like a military unit, and you can't get the ball, no amount of aimless running or 'commitment' is going to help. In fact, it's almost what they want you to do, chase the ball like dogs.
Have heard Souness say the same about himself. It's crazy how they underrate themselves.
There's a two minute video on Youtube of Keane's passing against Bolton and I feel like he doesn't understand that an ordinary midfielder can't make those kind of passes consistently or with the same accuracy and speed that he did. It's not a question of work ethic...you have to be bloody good to do it.
Brilliant, one of the best midfielders in the PL and probably the best captain it ever had.
His mentality helped him as a player but it also cost him. He was eventually kicked out of United because even Ferguson thought he went too far. It was a problem for Ireland and in management. Throughout his career, he's made enemies. I agree you need to be tough but he focuses on it too much.
Wtf?
Foden, De Bruyne and Sterling all came through rich academies and got massive contracts early. We weren't beaten by a team of ex-amatuers. I don't think that's the problem. If there was some sort of generational problem then it wouldn't be an issue for United because it would effect every club equally.
Well that's true. He's normally brilliant but he has seemed off.
Yeah it plays into their tactic perfectly, even better if a player loses their head and gets sent off. Even pressing isn't just about effort and desire, it needs to be highly coordinated and done in a holistic manner to be effective, otherwise you're just going to expose your side.
He really was brilliantly well rounded, could do everything to a high level and had no problem imposing himself on a game, both with how well he read the game and his sharp concise vertical passing.
I rate him. I just think the ongoing situation ie the utter incompetence of our management is getting to him.Brilliant, one of the best midfielders in the PL and probably the best captain it ever had.
His mentality helped him as a player but it also cost him. He was eventually kicked out of United because even Ferguson thought he went too far. It was a problem for Ireland and in management. Throughout his career, he's made enemies. I agree you need to be tough but he focuses on it too much.
Wtf?
Foden, De Bruyne and Sterling all came through rich academies and got massive contracts early. We weren't beaten by a team of ex-amatuers. I don't think that's the problem. If there was some sort of generational problem then it wouldn't be an issue for United because it would effect every club equally.
Well that's true. He's normally brilliant but he has seemed off.
Getting “stuck in” doesn’t equate to “red card”
Exactly, If Bruno had got stuck in and closed down instead of dancing about 5 yards away then the cross for the Bailly OG probably doesn't come in. I believe that was the issue that Keane was talking about, we don't impose ourselves. I watched Leeds yesterday and for all of the flaws in his game Dan James showed exactly what we were lacking, repeatedly racing back and winning possession in midfield, unafraid to go into challenges with the likes of Ndidi and Soyuncu and so along with the other Leeds forwards they had lengthy periods when Leicester could not escape their own half. Our idea of the press is to run to the periphery of where the player is and then hop from foot to foot waiting for them to do something. We are so soft and easy to play against it is a miracle that we don't get battered every week.
Correct.
Compare that to Ole's first 3 months in charge. Players were all over the place, in fact Ole demanding that they be in better shape and run more.
All the sudden we're back to the lollygagging and half-hearted challenges. The players will fall back on crap tactics but they aren't putting the effort in either.
This is correct. The games evolved quite aggressively in the last 12-13 years.
From all those rich academies there's only 76 academy graduates currently registered to their PL teams, so you have to say the players they bring in lack either the quality or the mentailty to make it.
For me, looking at some of those guys, they're made for life. They're not bothered about winning silverware or losing a game, it's just a job, by the age of 20 they've spent 10 years of doing nothing but football football football. They lose hunger and a certain amount of passion and pride in their work and at the top rhat makes a massive difference.
Where as 30 years ago, the players were playing for their livelihoods. They had to perform or else they'd lose everything they had worked for in their careers. That's the difference in mentality I'm talking about.
I also think that Klopp's fitness tests at Liverpool is great for weeding out those who don't or aren't going to work hard.
He was one of the best in the world. Madrid wanted him when he was at Forrest. And at United he was heavily linked to Juve, Madrid and Inter - around the time of his contract stand off.
It's a shame younger generations get the impression he was some kind of Vinnie Jones figure. Keane had the aggression in his locker, but he had everything. Positonal play, reading od the game, passing range, tackling, goals, heading, insane stamina.
I guess he's paid the price for his Haaland incident. It's impacted his legacy in a lot of people's minds as that's all some remember him for.
Yeah other clubs can motivate their young millionnaires.
United have this issue since Fergie left. Must start with the recruitment side, not identifying the right characters. Ole has spoken of this a lot in his 3 years, but some of the signings fall into the same trap.
“We are so soft and easy to play against”-agree completely! I’m not asking for our players to hurt the opponents or look for red-card challenges. I’m just asking to put a strong challenge into the tackle and make our opponents think twice about the next challenge coming when receiving the ball! This isn’t rocket science, yet @Tyrion wants to believe that strong tackles are from the Stone Age!
It is a tragedy. Keane is far and away the best person to bring on staff at Man Utd. Two paths. One is fire Ole and hire him as manager. The other option is as Harry Redknapp suggests, hire him as a coach. While the manager bit may have detractors, likely Roy himself as he and Ole are close, the coach path keeps Ole, and still goes a long way to fixing what Ole can't or won't. It is a way that Ole stays, there is no severance payout, and Manchester United, after far too long a wait, finally have the steel heart of a Corkman beating within the team again. It is a move that Ole can make on his own, and one that will surely save his job, so the question is, why hasn't he done it?
One answer to that is that Sir Alex is casting the black ball. Forgetting "...all the things they accomplished together" as Sayros so accurately states. A petulant old man whose most brilliant move, among many, was to beat Kenny Dalgliesh to signing Keane from Forest. If it is true, he should be greatly diminished in the eyes of Man Utd supporters. Alex Ferguson, more than any other person, does know that Roy Keane will change this. If he vetoes what is best for United, by spurning the very man he most owes the "Sir" in his name to, that is disgraceful.
I know that Keane himself is not free of petulance and the tragic gap between these two, who made each other, may be difficult to bridge. But it has to be.
I favor the Ole/Roy in the dugout combo. I remember when Roy was paired with Martin O'Neill, first with Ireland, then with Villa. Martin had it put to him by a reporter that the approach was going to be "good cop/bad cop". He said "No, more like bad cop/really really bad cop". We are desperate need of that really, really bad cop now.
Well, that certainly needed saying. Jesus wept, where did these people come from?
Is Fat Freddie's still open there in Quay Street, or did the pandemic kill it off?
Really? Why wasn't it ok?
People need to put some thought into what Keane said and not take it so literal.
He's not saying our players should scissor kick the opponent in the head or follow DDG into the shower and give him a prison beating.
He's saying that when you're being outclassed, have some fight, drive, aggression. Show them that they might outplay you but they won't out-work you. Make them fight for every ball. Show the fans you are passionate about the club.
Remember when Reyes first came to arsenal and then his first game against United? Neville and a few others roughed him up... He got scared after that and Arsenal were essentially playing with 10 men... We need to set that tone.
I can forgive being out-classed by this city team or Liverpool... They're fantastic teams at the moment. But I can't forgive our players covering the the least distance, doing the least amount of sprints etc. It's embarrassing.
City can have the ball for 10 minutes straight but you can bet your ass the minute they lose it, they'll all be sprinting like men possessed to try win it back... We need that same mentality.
Ole is getting the tactics wrong, we all know that but he shouldn't have to convince our players to get motivated for a game like this, especially after being bent over by Liverpool.
He's not saying our players should scissor kick the opponent in the head or follow DDG into the shower and give him a prison beating.
He's saying that when you're being outclassed, have some fight, drive, aggression. Show them that they might outplay you but they won't out-work you. Make them fight for every ball. Show the fans you are passionate about the club.
Remember when Reyes first came to arsenal and then his first game against United? Neville and a few others roughed him up... He got scared after that and Arsenal were essentially playing with 10 men... We need to set that tone.
I can forgive being out-classed by this city team or Liverpool... They're fantastic teams at the moment. But I can't forgive our players covering the the least distance, doing the least amount of sprints etc. It's embarrassing.
City can have the ball for 10 minutes straight but you can bet your ass the minute they lose it, they'll all be sprinting like men possessed to try win it back... We need that same mentality.
Ole is getting the tactics wrong, we all know that but he shouldn't have to convince our players to get motivated for a game like this, especially after being bent over by Liverpool.
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No I don't.
This is pretty insulting to Ferguson.
I also disagree with the bolded, it's not a question of desire. This is a team completely bereft of confidence, with no consistent tactical structure and both the formation and style now being chopped and changed on a weekly basis. It's not a question of going in and shouting, or telling them to put a foot in. The team needs tactical guidance, it needs a consistent outline of how to approach the game and exactly what roles to carry out on the pitch. As much as many on this forum like the idea of it, Keane going in and shouting at them would change absolutely nothing. Guardiola, Klopp and Tuchel's players don't care anymore than this United side, they just have a consistent approach to the game that they practice week in week out, with everyone on the pitch fully confident in both the plan and their own individual functions on the pitch.
Those passes in that Bolton video are mint. Teams are better organized now, but passes like that through the lines would be medicine for the present team. Compare this to the slow and pedestrian passing of our captain today, and the difference is night and day in urgency, despite different positions.