This. He single handedly took that United team by the collar and drove them to victories so many times. He was like SAF personified on the pitch. If we had him today he would improve this team immensely.Yeah, Fergie was well known for tolerating average players buried amongst better players, he even made them captain on occasion too.
This is the hottest of hot takes.
Despite being surrounded by the best players of his generation, for most of his time at Utd, we were a lesser team when he wasn't playing.
Absolutely awesome player, easily in the conversation when it comes to the best CMs to play in the PL.
Roy Keane
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
- Start date
I think you're underestimating that generation massively. They were top level footballers. I'm sure they knew the key to winning the ball back was to hunt for it in a pack.
Me and my pals at 5 a side know this. I'm sure Keane, Alex Ferguson and the rest of players also knew this. It wasn't just Roy Keane charging around with the rest looking on.
I'm not arguing it hasn't been improved upon thpugh, I've no doubt City's players are better drilled in it.
Yep it was called defending from the front.
Now repackaged as high press. With all pundits contractually obliged to mention it 20 times per show.
(Defending from the front) Goes right back to ze dutch and their total football philosophy and having players in every position who could positively contribute to the game. Refined at Barca and Pep has just taken it to another level in the modern game.
I'm not underestimating them. The 90s United team was clearly better than this team. I think Pele's as good as any player to play the game. If I have any kind of generational bias it's towards older players - I certainly rate them higher than the average person these days.
Di Stefano was an amazing player who ran all day but he never played in a press. That's not a criticism of his quality it's an assessment of the tactics he was employing.
You can't press high up the pitch without pushing your defenders high up the pitch, so if you don't want your defenders to be threatened in behind then you have to drop deeper. If the front three press high but the defenders sit back then you've got acres of space between attack and midfield or attack and defence, and everything falls apart. That was the conundrum they were wrestling with back in the 50s.
Lobanovskiy, Michels, Sacchi, Klopp etc. tackled that problem head on with aggressive offside traps, defenders who preferred the ball on the ground rather than in the air, etc. We obviously didn't do that. We knew that the quickest way to win the ball back was to crowd the player on the ball, but we weren't going to go that as aggressively and as high as a Klopp team because we didn't build a defence that likes to play high. We built a defence that was very good at protecting the box. It wasn't stupid for us not to employ a pressing game, it was a judgement call that weighed up pros and cons.
He absolutely did not have a better first touch than Keane - his touch was exceptional. There's some discussion to be had around passing range, although Keane was both an excellent metronomic passer and, similarly to Carrick, passed through the lines opening teams up.
They mean different things
High press/working hard to get the ball back - There are different pressing systems, a high press specifically will involve pressing high into the opposition's half in order to put pressure on the opponent's backline, and to facilitate that the backline will be positioned very high up the pitch in order to compact the playing pitch. "Working hard to get the ball back" can apply to any pressing system, but for example someone like Conte has his teams work very hard to get the ball back (after regaining their defensive shape) but he obviously doesn't play a high press.
Low block/Catenaccio - Catenaccio refers specifically to the tactic, it's far more encompassing than just defending deep. Herrera's Catenaccio had many functions, as well as his innovative use of the sweeper and the way he employed fullbacks, it wasn't just a defensive system but one that facilitated the entire team, including their fast counter attacks.
So while you could maybe say that Catenaccio used a low block, you couldn't say that a low block uses the Catenaccio.
High press / working hard to get the ball back - is the same system when you employ it in the opposition half. It's just defending from the front. It wasn't very prevalent in England because not many teams played around too much at the back, they always tended to be more direct, so in that sense it wasn't really used as a high press. When the teams were playing more direct, it's when working hard to get the ball back that was used to put pressure on the defending team in their own half to stop them getting out easy. Look at what Klopp's Liverpool did when they won the league, with his famous "gengenpress" - long balls, long diagonal balls, swinging cross after cross into the box and pressing high to pen teams in once the ball went up there. That's a tactic Jack Charlton employed to great success with Ireland in the late 80's and early 90's. "Put 'em under pressure" was the motto.
Low block is just a fancy word for defending deep which is just another way of referring to catenaccio - it's not a new tactic - it's been around for as long as football - it's just the same old catenaccio with a new name - in most of them the sweeper has moved from behind the defense to be in front of the defense. The tactic is still the same sit deep and clip long balls into the channels or look for full backs to release down the wings. Herrera's 532 is pretty much what Nuno utilized at Wolves. Conte's 352/532 is pretty much the same only he inserts more attacking players at full back and in centre midfield to increase the attacking output from the system.
The systems may be more fine tuned nowadays but football hasn't been reinvented - like everything else it's cyclical, what's used today might not be used in 15 to 20 years. But maybe in 30 years someone will come along and have a new system which incorporates a few ideas from the old ones. Who knows, In future years we might see the return of 442 and proper all round box to box midfielders like Roy might be all the rage again.
I disagree with all this mate, at least the stuff pertaining to the phrases. These terms come into popularity because it makes it easier to convey how we see the game and what our approach is. They're just useful descriptors . High press refers to a specific pressing system, low block a defensive shape, Catenaccio a tactic (it's a lot more than just a low block). I know people can get annoyed with buzzwords but they serve a useful purpose.
I completely agree with this
I think very much the same as you, everything in football is cyclical.
Carrick was mint. What I wouldn't give for even one of Keano or Carrick in midfield the now.Yeah great decision by England. They definitely didn't need a Carrick to bring balance to the side. They were better off by trying to shoe-horn Stevie me and Lampard in midfield.
Pep Guardiola called him one of the best holding midfielders he's ever seen. I'll leave it at that.
We are talking about Roy Keane as a potential successor to OGS right?
Mate, I've not read all 64 pages, but I don't think anyone is talking about that. At least I hope not.
It'd probably be a disaster but the first 6 month would be crazy entertaining.
I think I would be well able to control my mirth.
Keano seems to think it all comes down to a relentless attitude, working your socks off and total loyalty and conviction. That is:
- a terrific trait in a team captain
- a good trait in a midfielder, especially if he's got the necessary quality
- a tiresome trait in a pundit
- a complete disaster in a manager.
Not even one person has said that.
A few have flippantly suggested he could be the number 2, to run around demoralising, sorry...encouraging players though.
I mean you're suggesting individual players might have worked hard but they were doing so independently. Not in any kind of coordinated way. I think that is an underestimation. Keane and thw rest were top level footballers. They probably didn't make a big deal out of it, didn't have a trendy phrase for it but I'm sure had the intelligence to purposely win the ball back as a group.
Again I suppose its memory and perception. I don't think of Bruce/Pallister or Stam/Johnsen as playing particularly deep. Maybe not on the halfway line like City but advanced enough. Just because Bruce was slow doesn't mean he played purely on the edge of his area.
It's a shame with all these interviews they do with Keane and others they don't ask about this stuff. What those teams worked on, what the collective idea was going into a game. Would be very interesting.
They pressed as a unit to a limited degree but most of our strength was in winning individual battles, on or off the ball. The wingers would destroy the fullbacks, Keane and Ince would dominate their individual midfield battles, that’s the game we played and we were very effective at it at home so I don’t see it as a criticism at all, just an observation.
It’s all relative. United played higher up the pitch than most teams they played against, but then no team in England played a pressing game at that point.
Before Heysel Liverpool were a symbol of tactical modernity on the continent (while e.g. Forest were the symbol of English traditions) but after the ban all English clubs had taken a step back. Once we got on top in the league we had great individuals but consistently underperformed in Europe, and once we got past the excuses of the foreign player quota, the focus went to our tactical choices being better suited to the domestic game than the continental one.
We just weren’t one of the tactical innovators and at that time very few teams were playing a pressing game, Sacchi’s team stood out in the same way Michel’s Ajax did.
Agreed it would be good to get more insight on that, but I’ve seen Rio, Giggs and Rooney talk about Sir Alex’s tactics in the past and they just don’t have any insight to offer. A lot of footballers aren’t that articulate and Rooney was among the worst of the bunch in that regard, but if they’re able to articulate so little, it also fits with the narrative that Sir Alex didn’t place much emphasis on tactics.
He covered off the necessities but most of his focus went on getting great individuals in his squad and getting them motivated. Which also fits with the likes of Keane, Rooney and Giggs not being very good managers, as they had little tactical insight to pass on and no-one can create Sir Alex’s motivational power.
I agree except Moyes has his moments.
Keane's ability is massively underrated because how good the other players were, especially Scholes. I feel the same way about Butt.
So true!
Hell, butty would've walked in to our current midfield, improved it vastly & stayed there.
Butt would have made more tackles Saturday than Fred has all season
Not that anybody will care, but making few tackles isn't actually among the things you could reasonably accuse Fred of. His tackling stats are actually good to very good.
From Fbref (last 365 days) (Stats per 90/percentile (87 percentile = better than 87% of central midfielders)).
| Tackles | 3.02 | 87 |
|---|---|---|
| Tackles Won | 1.96 | 85 |
| Tackles (Def 3rd) | 1.24 | 79 |
| Tackles (Mid 3rd) | 1.44 | 87 |
| Tackles (Att 3rd) | 0.35 | 73 |
Considering that as a team we’ve made fewer tackles than any other club in the Premier League it really shows how unfair it is to constantly scapegoat Fred for all our woes..
yes and especially started at Ajax because Johan Neeskens could run non stop all day. Peit Keizer used to be good in closing down the channels when he was the left winger. Also the defense would push up and make the field so small. Their keeper Schrijvers and Stuy used to sweep up and very good with their feet.So it was defending from the front and hunting in packs. What worked for them was also they inter change positions so that attackers could defend too.
Yep. It may be of course that he has also declined in this area this season (these stats being last 365 days), but I think you're fundamentally right about that. It's become an easy and lazy response.
But Keane was better than Scholes and more important to our team back then. Interestingly enough Butt was the one who would make Scholes sit out of important games
Might have posted this before but I think it’s worth posting again just for those of you who haven’t heard it or didn’t see Keane in his pomp.
There’s a comedian/ impressionist here in Dublin called Mario Rosenstock.For anyone who hasn’t heard him I highly recommend him.
He’s a brilliant impressionist and does a Jose Mourinho impression so good that even Mourinho loves it.
When Mourinho was in his first spell at Chelsea the team hired Rosenstock to come over to Liverpool to entertain them and Jose the night before they played Everton.
Rosenstock recounted this on radio several years ago.The evening went very well, Jose was delighted and everyone enjoyed the gig.
Afterwards when all the players went to bed Rosenstock had a couple of drinks and a chat with Jose.When the banter stopped he asked Jose if he could sign one player for Chelsea who it would be, Jose replied instantly Roy Keane.
Rosenstock asked him why expecting a lengthy analysis of Keane’s strengths.
Instead Jose said with complete seriousness & sincerity “Because Roy Keane is invincible”.
Enough said.
There’s a comedian/ impressionist here in Dublin called Mario Rosenstock.For anyone who hasn’t heard him I highly recommend him.
He’s a brilliant impressionist and does a Jose Mourinho impression so good that even Mourinho loves it.
When Mourinho was in his first spell at Chelsea the team hired Rosenstock to come over to Liverpool to entertain them and Jose the night before they played Everton.
Rosenstock recounted this on radio several years ago.The evening went very well, Jose was delighted and everyone enjoyed the gig.
Afterwards when all the players went to bed Rosenstock had a couple of drinks and a chat with Jose.When the banter stopped he asked Jose if he could sign one player for Chelsea who it would be, Jose replied instantly Roy Keane.
Rosenstock asked him why expecting a lengthy analysis of Keane’s strengths.
Instead Jose said with complete seriousness & sincerity “Because Roy Keane is invincible”.
Enough said.
Pretty much what I was getting at. These aren't fancy new ideas - they've just been given new names and people like to think that they are new. It's like saying Elon Musk invented the electric car.
he was the guy who did a version of "where's me jumper?"as the former pm, right? Loved that one.
What a load of shite. English clubs have won loads of European competitions long before you're claiming.
Claiming English teams in the 90s weren't tactically savvy is ridiculous given English teams dominated Europe in the 80s and in the 90s consistently went deep into European competitions.
The ban in the mid 80s did put English clubs back a bit.
The statistics for once are telling. The performances of the English clubs in European competitions were horrendous. We boasted 8 or 9 of the best players in their position and only managed one final in that era. It's true that we were unlucky at times but we also were never a Real, Bayern or Juventus in those days. Arsenal were a juggernaut locally but never made even a semi final in the CL. Sir Alex would speak time and time again about how we needed to adapt to European teams, how often do you hear that from Klopp or Guardiola nowadays?
Also, winning European Cups in the past does not have anything to do with my main argument, which is that even if the PL was equal to its counter parts at the time as you suggest, it is still inferior to the tactical standards of today. I am honestly not sure how that this is a controversial point considering how highly regarded Mourinho, Benitez and later on the current crop are regarded in terms of their contribution to English football. Sir Alex kept growing and adapting to the new developments. Solskjaer wants to copy paste what worked in the '90s in a way Sir Alex himself did not try to copy paste 10 years later.
I think the closest player to Keane today would be Kimmich.
Keane was very aggressive in the tackle but he definitely wasn't the Kante type of player who would press all over the pitch. I wouldn't be surprised he had lower sprints per match or distanced covered.
His greatest strength was his ability to take control of any situation in midfield and offer a solution be it off the ball or on it. He had an extremely reliable first touch, he wasn't pass master like Xavi but his decision-making was spot on everytime. Whenever he was on the pitch you get the feeling he was always there to offer himself as either as a passing option or to close down attackers. It's something quite lacking from our midfielders today. They lack both the talent and application on the pitch.
I think Kimmich is the same as well, he is definitely not as talented as someone like Kroos or Thiago but what he brings to the table is invaluable.
Keane was very aggressive in the tackle but he definitely wasn't the Kante type of player who would press all over the pitch. I wouldn't be surprised he had lower sprints per match or distanced covered.
His greatest strength was his ability to take control of any situation in midfield and offer a solution be it off the ball or on it. He had an extremely reliable first touch, he wasn't pass master like Xavi but his decision-making was spot on everytime. Whenever he was on the pitch you get the feeling he was always there to offer himself as either as a passing option or to close down attackers. It's something quite lacking from our midfielders today. They lack both the talent and application on the pitch.
I think Kimmich is the same as well, he is definitely not as talented as someone like Kroos or Thiago but what he brings to the table is invaluable.
Has anyone mentioned he'll possibly be on ''Im a celebrity?''
https://goss.ie/showbiz/roy-keane-hotly-tipped-for-im-a-celeb-ahead-of-new-series-273518
Be an interesting watch.
https://goss.ie/showbiz/roy-keane-hotly-tipped-for-im-a-celeb-ahead-of-new-series-273518
Be an interesting watch.
I hope he doesn't. But if he does, I'll have to tune in.
Just slated Maguire for that celebration. Dead right. Hope Keane is on I'm a Celeb. Not a fan of the show but he's TV gold
It’s embarrassing. Roy Keane the player would have been horrified
I know it's non-United related but has anyone seen/heard his comment about Kane should be used to disappointments because he plays for Spurs. Genuinely gave me a laugh.