Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[Simbo]

The west on the other hand should either throw its complete backing behind Ukraine or back out so that Ukrainians know they can't win this and surrender

You think Ukraine would surrender if the West backed out? Do you perhaps think this is a war between Russia and 'The West'?

Even if the US backed out cos they voted in another nutjob or something, Poland, Lithuania etc never ever would. Those that know the harsh reality of Russian imperialism in their not too distant past.

 

[Real Name]

Seems like Russia are winning this war, slowly but surely taking over Ukraine.

(Despite the impression that the Western propaganda tries to show)

So as opposed to Western propaganda Russian propaganda is trying to show they're winning?

 

[BayernFan87]

Finally

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[Gehrman]

Ukraine has 1/3 the population of Russia and if supplied with modern Western weapons, they have enough resilience to at least fight this to a stalemate. The west on the other hand should either throw its complete backing behind Ukraine or back out so that Ukrainians know they can't win this and surrender. The current tactic of supplying just enough weapons so that the war is prolonged, Russia is hurt long term and Ukrainians lose their lives in the thousands is really immoral IMO.

Do you mean direct military intervention or France and Germany not dragging it's feet in sending heavy weapons?

 

[africanspur]

I suspect it’s very easy for us to say ‘send more’ versus the reality of getting it safely into Ukraine undetected, training soldiers and putting it to use. It’s also a very precarious situation for Ukraine, they have to protect the new artillery systems beyond almost anything else as can you imagine how quickly the aid would dry up if we saw some pictures of a load of blown up or, worse yet, captured NATO artillery.

100%. Super easy to say throw everything behind Ukraine.

Not so easy to realise that they need to be trained in the use of this weaponry, need to be trained to use them well to minimise losses and capture of equipment and to integrate them best into the armed forces. Needs to get into Ukraine, needs to come out of existing armed forces supplies and needs to be paid for at some point.

Hoping that some of the stuff pledged early on is going to make it to the front lines soon enough.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Finally

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Das ist ein befehl !

 

[Raoul]

100%. Super easy to say throw everything behind Ukraine.

Not so easy to realise that they need to be trained in the use of this weaponry, need to be trained to use them well to minimise losses and capture of equipment and to integrate them best into the armed forces. Needs to get into Ukraine, needs to come out of existing armed forces supplies and needs to be paid for at some point.

Hoping that some of the stuff pledged early on is going to make it to the front lines soon enough.

The Ukrainians are getting trained across the borders of Bulgaria, Romania, and one or two other places. Many of the systems require at least a couple of weeks of familiarization, which can be done by rotating troops in and out of these countries before they deploy the weapons to frontlines.

 

[africanspur]

Also not sure if 'western propaganda' is the correct phrasing in this instance but the reporting has certainly helped share perceptions.

Only a buffoon would say Russia has won or is 'winning' this war. Compared to their initial aims, they've clearly failed. It will be interesting to see in the future just how close they were to actually taking Kiev in the first few days.

Regardless, with the constant stream of (admittedly at times funny) Mr Bean esque gaffes of the Russian armed forces, it's easy to think they're totally failing but the destruction they've wrought on the east and south of Ukraine is horrendous. We need to not lose sight of that as we post tweets showing farmers driving tanks or whatever. Certainly there seem to have been a lot of predictions of the Russian army / economy collapsing imminently.

 

[MTF]

Also not sure if 'western propaganda' is the correct phrasing in this instance but the reporting has certainly helped share perceptions.

Only a buffoon would say Russia has won or is 'winning' this war. Compared to their initial aims, they've clearly failed. It will be interesting to see in the future just how close they were to actually taking Kiev in the first few days.

Regardless, with the constant stream of (admittedly at times funny) Mr Bean esque gaffes of the Russian armed forces, it's easy to think they're totally failing but the destruction they've wrought on the east and south of Ukraine is horrendous. We need to not lose sight of that as we post tweets showing farmers driving tanks or whatever. Certainly there seem to have been a lot of predictions of the Russian army / economy collapsing imminently.

One of the impressive things so far is that Russia has absorbed significant losses of manpower and equipment, and that they're still fighting. It's not unreasonable to think that if a NATO military took casualties in the tens of thousands within a few months, that they wouldn't just call a complete pause of any offensive action. It's not something to be dismissed, it means that to defeat the Russian army it takes several times more damage than it would others.

 

[Gehrman]

One of the impressive things so far is that Russia has absorbed significant losses of manpower and equipment, and that they're still fighting. It's not unreasonable to think that if a NATO military took casualties in the tens of thousands within a few months, that they wouldn't just call a complete pause of any offensive action. It's not something to be dismissed, it means that to defeat the Russian army it takes several times more damage than it would others.

It's because Russia unlike most western countries don't value the life of their soldiers to the same degree. In recent times the death of western soldiers becomes real stories and tragdedies. In Russia it's more a statistic on a political level.

 

[tomaldinho1]

100%. Super easy to say throw everything behind Ukraine.

Not so easy to realise that they need to be trained in the use of this weaponry, need to be trained to use them well to minimise losses and capture of equipment and to integrate them best into the armed forces. Needs to get into Ukraine, needs to come out of existing armed forces supplies and needs to be paid for at some point.

Hoping that some of the stuff pledged early on is going to make it to the front lines soon enough.

I have seen that Polish Krabs have been used en masse in the defence of Severdonetsk and reportedly been incredible. I guess we wouldn't see the pro Ukrainian press saying they've been crap but Severdonetsk looked like it was done for a week ago and is still contested so might be some truth in it.

 

[frostbite]

It's because Russia unlike most western countries don't value the life of their soldiers to the same degree. In recent times the death of western soldiers becomes real stories and tragdedies. In Russia it's more a statistic on a political level.

1. Do Russian citizens know how many Russian soldiers have died?

2. Do they care?

3. If they care, can they do anything about it?

 

[harms]

Totally off topic, but why do I sometimes see Lukashenko and other times Lukashenka?

Russian (-o) and Belarussian (-a) spelling. Same thing as with Kiev (Rus) / Kyiv (Ukr) etc. — since Russian language was the first official language of all USSR republics, a lot of things and that includes Russian-To-English transliterations are still very common in ex-Soviet territories. Although I expect that for Ukraine, at least, it’s going to change very soon.

 

[Gehrman]

1. Do Russian citizens know how many Russian soldiers have died?

2. Do they care?

3. If they care, can they do anything about it?

I don't know but the Russian and Soviet governments disregard of the lives of its own soldiers and citizens is well known. As far as I have read Putin's government is trying to cover up a significant part of its casualties, by burning bodies rather than sending their soldiers bodies back to their families.

 

[harms]

1. Do Russian citizens know how many Russian soldiers have died?

2. Do they care?

3. If they care, can they do anything about it?

1. No, not even remotely
2. Not as much as they should, aside from those who are directly involved in it (relatives of dead or “missing” soldiers), but even they often have a very weird defensive reaction about it — chances are they’re as ignorant about the true nature of the conflict and it’s obviously easier to imagine your deceased son/husband as a hero rather than as a pointless victim (and, well, a perpetrator) of inhumane and criminal aggression against a neighboring country. It’s really weird because a way lesser (in a similar time span) amount of deaths caused a very serious anti-governmental sentiment from their relatives during both the Afghan war and both of the Chechen wars
3. In theory yes, but in reality…

 

[alexthelion]

OK, the moral part I think it's you living in dreamland, but lets leave that aside.

Since we know the food shortage won't be dealt with and millions will die, we should at least be honest about the consequences of our decisions. Supporting ukraine to fight till the end and concede no territory will have these effects elsewhere. Putin is to blame for starting it all, no question, but the response has consequences too.

I'm not happy with politicians completely ignoring the brutal devastation that prolonging this will cause in non-western nations.

It's easy having this "you shall not pass" attitude when it's other folks who will pay the price.

I'll repeat again because I feel it coming. I have no answer to this, it's a fecked up decision either way and I don't envy the folks having to make it. What I can not stand is completely ignoring the millions who will die when talking about these decisions. It's a bit disgusting really.

Maybe you should take this "moral crusade" to those that caused it, i.e., Putler in the Kremlin.

Whilst you're there, ask him why he won't allow food to be exported. The only disgusting thing is Russian behaviour, not anything caused by "The West".

 

[NotThatSoph]

Maybe you should take this "moral crusade" to those that caused it, i.e., Jimmy Savile in the Kremlin.

Whilst you're there, ask him why he won't allow food to be exported. The only disgusting thing is Russian behaviour, not anything caused by "The West".

You're the one on a moral crusade here. Which is fine, of course, go ahead, but it's pretty weird to use it as an attack while you're at it.

 

[Raoul]

Maybe you should take this "moral crusade" to those that caused it, i.e., Jimmy Savile in the Kremlin.

Whilst you're there, ask him why he won't allow food to be exported. The only disgusting thing is Russian behaviour, not anything caused by "The West".

Indeed. All complaints should be directed at the person who initiated all of this.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Indeed. All complaints should be directed at the person who initiated all of this.

They'll go unanswered. Then what, let them all die?

Go back to the so-called refugee crisis in 2015. It was a result of the Syrian civil war, so put the blame on a combination of the Syrian government and ISIS, in whatever proportion you want. More than a million people had to flee. Complaining to either Assad or ISIS would have achieved nothing, and if we ended it there all those people would have gotten their asylum claims rejected.

Or, we can stay with this war. A lot of Ukranians have had to flee their country. It's Putin's fault, no one else's. It's not Poland's fault, it's not Lithuania's, it's not Germany's. We can tell the refugees to go to Russia and complain, or we can help them.

 

[MadMike]

Russian (-o) and Belarussian (-a) spelling. Same thing as with Kiev (Rus) / Kyiv (Ukr) etc. — since Russian language was the first official language of all USSR republics, a lot of things and that includes Russian-To-English transliterations are still very common in ex-Soviet territories. Although I expect that for Ukraine, at least, it’s going to change very soon.

(This isn’t for your benefit, your know this already, but for @maniak)

In Russian -o is pronounced as -a when the vowel is not in the stressed syllable.

For example the word хорошо (meaning ”good”) is made up of 3 syllables (хо-ро-шо). In this case it is the last syllable that is stressed (шо). The English transliteration would be kharashO (uppercase to show the stressed vowel). The first two -o are pronounced as -a. Because they are not stressed.

By this rule the name Лукашенко is prounounced LukashEnka in Russian (stress on the E). In Belarusian things are more simplified. Where they pronounce -a they also write -a. So the name is written as Лукашенка in Belarusian.

In both Russian and Belarusian it’s pronounced the same, with -a at the end. But since in Russian it’s written with an -o at the end, sometimes people write it as Lukashenko in English. But closest correct pronunciation is Lukashenka.

 

[maniak]

Maybe you should take this "moral crusade" to those that caused it, i.e., Jimmy Savile in the Kremlin.

Whilst you're there, ask him why he won't allow food to be exported. The only disgusting thing is Russian behaviour, not anything caused by "The West".

Do you have his number so I can give him a ring?

Moral crusade... jesus.

 

[maniak]

Russian (-o) and Belarussian (-a) spelling. Same thing as with Kiev (Rus) / Kyiv (Ukr) etc. — since Russian language was the first official language of all USSR republics, a lot of things and that includes Russian-To-English transliterations are still very common in ex-Soviet territories. Although I expect that for Ukraine, at least, it’s going to change very soon.

(This isn’t for your benefit, your know this already, but for @maniak)

In Russian -o is pronounced as -a when the vowel is not in the stressed syllable.

For example the word хорошо (meaning ”good”) is made up of 3 syllables (хо-ро-шо). In this case it is the last syllable that is stressed (шо). The English transliteration would be kharashO (uppercase to show the stressed vowel). The first two -o are pronounced as -a. Because they are not stressed.

By this rule the name Лукашенко is prounounced LukashEnka in Russian (stress on the E). In Belarusian things are more simplified. Where they pronounce -a they also write -a. So the name is written as Лукашенка in Belarusian.

In both Russian and Belarusian it’s pronounced the same, with -a at the end. But since in Russian it’s written with an -o at the end, sometimes people write it as Lukashenko in English. But closest correct pronunciation is Lukashenka.

Thanks guys, I think I got it.

I was confused because I know a russian girl whose surname is kozlova and her brother is kozlov, so I thought it was a gender thing. In this case it has to do with the translation.

 

[MadMike]

Thanks guys, I think I got it.

I was confused because I know a russian girl whose surname is kozlova and her brother is kozlov, so I thought it was a gender thing. In this case it has to do with the translation.

Correct. In this case it’s not a gender -a, but the ending -enko which is mostly of Ukrainian origin and means “son of”. In this case, Лукашенко is son of Lukas.

Generally, for reasons unbeknownst to me, Russian and Slavic names always get butchered when they get transliterated to English. Take the last USSR president Gorbachev, for example. His name is actually written in Russian as Горбачёв and the closest pronunciation for that would be Garbachyóv. So I don’t know why we don’t write names closer to their sound.

 

[Frosty]

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[Simbo]

Bit of horrifying footage, Russians at an ammo dump that was hit.

Spoiler: Loud

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[Frosty]

Bit of horrifying footage, Russians at an ammo dump that was hit.

Spoiler

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Watching this really does remind me of reading veterans accounts of battles on the Western Front in WW1.

 

[calodo2003]

Bit of horrifying footage, Russians at an ammo dump that was hit.

Spoiler

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Put a sound warning in your post. That nearly blew out my ear buds.

 

[Simbo]

Mixed reports as to whether Poland/Czechia have 100% agreed to this or not but sounds promising at the least.

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[stevoc]

One of the impressive things so far is that Russia has absorbed significant losses of manpower and equipment, and that they're still fighting. It's not unreasonable to think that if a NATO military took casualties in the tens of thousands within a few months, that they wouldn't just call a complete pause of any offensive action. It's not something to be dismissed, it means that to defeat the Russian army it takes several times more damage than it would others.

Russia throughout history has always taken the Zapp Brannigan approach to warfare by sending in wave after wave of their own men to achieve victory by simply outnumbering the enemy. Basically they don't care about the lives of their soldiers.

 

[massi83]

They'll go unanswered. Then what, let them all die?

Go back to the so-called refugee crisis in 2015. It was a result of the Syrian civil war, so put the blame on a combination of the Syrian government and ISIS, in whatever proportion you want. More than a million people had to flee. Complaining to either Assad or ISIS would have achieved nothing, and if we ended it there all those people would have gotten their asylum claims rejected.

Or, we can stay with this war. A lot of Ukranians have had to flee their country. It's Putin's fault, no one else's. It's not Poland's fault, it's not Lithuania's, it's not Germany's. We can tell the refugees to go to Russia and complain, or we can help them.

Never seen anyone with bigger holier-than-thou-complex in the whole Internet than you.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Never seen anyone with bigger holier-than-thou-complex in the whole Internet than you.

That may well be, but I assume this is a general comment rather than a response to what I wrote.

 

[Frosty]

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[Gehrman]

I think the whole problem with Putin weaponizing famine is that he can keep doing it and I believe if Ukraine cede more terroritory within a decade at most Putin will repeat what he's doing in wanting install a puppett regime or annex all of Ukraine.

 

[Simbo]

This is inside Russia. Some debate on what type of drone it is, there are seemingly loads of different kinds made all over that look just like that.

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[VorZakone]

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[IWat]

Ukraine has 1/3 the population of Russia and if supplied with modern Western weapons, they have enough resilience to at least fight this to a stalemate. The west on the other hand should either throw its complete backing behind Ukraine or back out so that Ukrainians know they can't win this and surrender. The current tactic of supplying just enough weapons so that the war is prolonged, Russia is hurt long term and Ukrainians lose their lives in the thousands is really immoral IMO.

You have to consider that selfishly the West has to retain enough of an arsenal to be able to fight any other conflict that might crop up including a direct attack on a NATO member. It's estimated the US has already sent roughly 1/3 of their inventory of Javelin's, circa 7,000 to Ukraine and that it will take at least 12 months to ramp up the production past the 1,000 per year currently being produced.

For some of these weapon platforms, it is infeasible to ramp up production in the short-medium term. And there is a real risk if the West continues to commit more and more of their arsenals that they'll get caught with their pants down.

 

[Frosty]

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[maniak]

I think the whole problem with Putin weaponizing famine is that he can keep doing it and I believe if Ukraine cede more terroritory within a decade at most Putin will repeat what he's doing in wanting install a puppett regime or annex all of Ukraine.

The rest of the world would be extremely stupid not to make changes in the food supply in the next few years. If this time it's 100% on putin, if we allow him to repeat this in a few years, then it will be on the rest of us too.

 

[pierrethesnack]

You have to consider that selfishly the West has to retain enough of an arsenal to be able to fight any other conflict that might crop up including a direct attack on a NATO member. It's estimated the US has already sent roughly 1/3 of their inventory of Javelin's, circa 7,000 to Ukraine and that it will take at least 12 months to ramp up the production past the 1,000 per year currently being produced.

Is NATO running out of weapons to supply Ukraine? (no) - YouTube


While the US/NATO might run out of Javelins, there is absolutely no reason to worry that NATO as a whole will run out of weapons. As this video highlights, Javelins and similar weapons are covevenient and useful for the type of warfare going on in Ukraine now, but the NATO arsenal is in no way dependant on it.

 

[Rajma]

You have to consider that selfishly the West has to retain enough of an arsenal to be able to fight any other conflict that might crop up including a direct attack on a NATO member. It's estimated the US has already sent roughly 1/3 of their inventory of Javelin's, circa 7,000 to Ukraine and that it will take at least 12 months to ramp up the production past the 1,000 per year currently being produced.

For some of these weapon platforms, it is infeasible to ramp up production in the short-medium term. And there is a real risk if the West continues to commit more and more of their arsenals that they'll get caught with their pants down.

US alone has up to 2 thousand rocket launchers and they’re about to deliver just 4 of these to Ukraine. Javelins were needed at the beginning of war but now Ukraine needs heavy and long ranged artillery as they’re massively outnumbered by Russia to the factor of 20 probably. Biden should stop dithering and set the war goals clearly as these heavy weapons are desperately needed for Ukraine. The morale is obviously decreasing amongst soldiers as their positions are under nonstop shelling with heavy artillery without much ability to respond.