Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[Gehrman]

Fair enough, I hope the decision makers don't look at things in such a black and white way.

In the end its the government of Ukraine who makes that decision and its all on Putin in the end.

 

[maniak]

In the end its the government of Ukraine who makes that decision and its all on Putin in the end.

Sure, but the ukranian government makes decisions based on the military/financial support they get, so indirectly it's not really 100% on them to decide.

 

[Water Melon]

Fair enough, I hope the decision makers don't look at things in such a black and white way.

The decision makers are the people of Ukraine and they are ready to continue their fight. The leaders of countries who are helping Ukraine also support the will of Ukranian citizens and their government. Put pressure on put-ler, eradicate russism. Ukranians are the ones suffering the worst.

 

[Water Melon]

Sure, but the ukranian government makes decisions based on the military/financial support they get, so indirectly it's not really 100% on them to decide.

But supporting countries are ready to continue their support, as this is the right thing to do. If you do not stop russism, it will continue. We have seen it over the years. The chief russist does not give a feck about anyone. The world let this cnut carry on for far too long. Had there been strong reaction after Georgia, there would be no disaster of Crimea and Donbass. Had there been fierce reaction in 2014, we would not have this war in 2022. The world is on Ukraine's side, thankfully. Tell put-ler to stop, it is his fault, do not tell Ukranians to cede their motherland.

 

[maniak]

The decision makers are the people of Ukraine and they are ready to continue their fight. The leaders of countries who are helping Ukraine also support the will of Ukranian citizens and their government. Put pressure on put-ler, eradicate russism. Ukranians are the ones suffering the worst.

I don't disagree with any of that. My point is that when people start dying by the millions as a direct consequence of this (putin's terrorist tactics regarding food no doubt), those western leaders will have to see if the donbass is worth all that suffering. As financial crisis gets worse, I suspect most western populations will abandon the unconditional support stance they felt when the war started. It's already happening, in fact.

 

[maniak]

But supporting countries are ready to continue their support, as this is the right thing to do. If you do not stop russism, it will continue. We have seen it over the years. The chief russist does not give a feck about anyone. The world let this cnut carry on for far too long. Had there been strong reaction after Georgia, there would be no disaster of Crimea and Donbass. Had there been fuerce reaction in 2014, we would not have this war in 2022. The world is on Ukraine's side, thankfully.

As I said before, it's fecked situation to be in if you're making decisions. We all know that continuing to support ukraine unconditionally will cause millions to die. At what point stops being worth it. I know I won't starve to death, so it's easy for me to say "let's keep going".

 

[Water Melon]

I don't disagree with any of that. My point is that when people start dying by the millions as a direct consequence of this (putin's terrorist tactics regarding food no doubt), those western leaders will have to see if the donbass is worth all that suffering. As financial crisis gets worse, I suspect most western populations will abandon the unconditional support stance they felt when the war started. It's already happening, in fact.

We will see, but I expect to see some changes once lend-lease comes into full play. In case things continue to get worse, I fully expect more sanctions on Russia.

 

[Water Melon]

As I said before, it's fecked situation to be in if you're making decisions. We all know that continuing to support ukraine unconditionally will cause millions to die. At what point stops being worth it. I know I won't starve to death, so it's easy for me to say "let's keep going".

My country's economy is extremely dependent on Russia, and I am absolutely ready to feel the hit. I have been feeling it already. Defeating the russism, is key to worlds stability. Letting it go on, results even in bigger disasters.

 

[Gehrman]

Sure, but the ukranian government makes decisions based on the military/financial support they get, so indirectly it's not really 100% on them to decide.

True but you would have to have the EU, the UK and the US to adopt the same stance and Ukraine might not be able to be forced to cede even if they do lose the support of the west

 

[maniak]

My country's economy is extremely dependent on Russia, and I am absolutely ready to feel the hit. I have been feeling it already. Defeating the russism, is key to worlds stability. Letting it go on, results even in bigger disasters.

Feeling the hit is one thing, having entire communities starve to death is quite another.

 

[maniak]

True but you would have to have the EU, the UK and the US to adopt the same stance and Ukraine might not be able to be forced to cede even if they do lose the support of the west

Very unrealistic they wouldn't make concessions if they were losing support.

 

[Gehrman]

Very unrealistic they wouldn't make concessions if they were losing support.

I think after losing Crimea and being in a full scale invasion I don't think Ukraine will surrender anything.

 

[maniak]

I think after losing Crimea and being in a full scale invasion I don't think Ukraine will surrender anything.

I hope they don't have to and we can't control their ultimate decision, that's true, but realistically, if we stop helping they'll have no choice.

 

[harms]

I get your feeling regarding russia and I get even more ukranians' will to fight to the end, but eventually those arming ukraine will have to decide how many millions of lives is the donbass worth.

It's a fecked up situation because conceding to some of putin's demands is a horrible precedent, but those millions dying won't be westerners, will be people with absolutely no voice.

I'm glad I'm not the one making those decisions because I really don't know what I would do.

You do understand that if you concede to Putin's oil, gas & grain blackmail, he won't stop and will use it more and more. Is Donbass worth it? Is Kharkiv? Kyiv? Lviv? Tbilisi, Warsaw?

 

[maniak]

You do understand that if you concede to Putin's oil, gas & grain blackmail, he won't stop and will use it more and more. Is Donbass worth it? Is Kharkiv? Kyiv? Lviv? Tbilisi, Warsaw?

I understand he will be emboldened, sure, and I keep repeating this in case someone misunderstands, it's a fecked up decision to make. But on the other hand, are we willing to let potentially tens of millions to die? If the answer is yes, then so be it, I'm just saying personally I'm not sure it is.

 

[Gehrman]

You do understand that if you concede to Putin's oil, gas & grain blackmail, he won't stop and will use it more and more. Is Donbass worth it? Is Kharkiv? Kyiv? Lviv? Tbilisi, Warsaw?

Harms, on another note are the sanctions being felt in daily life? Our national broadcaster showed very empty shopping malls and increased food prices bit I don't know if they were cherry picking.

 

[Cheimoon]

I think a lot of the criticism comes from the idea of a world police, and the drivers behind it. The US didn't reluctantly assume that mantle, it was done by design to serve its interests economically and ideologically, to ensure that it remains the principal global superpower. When its conduct in this capacity has been criticised (this is extended to the UK and co too of course) historically there has been thorough and objective reasons for the criticism. That doesn't mean situations can't be evaluated on a case by case basis, past failed interventions (with questionable casus belli) doesn't mean that hypothetically there won't be a situation where one would think there is cause to intervene.

Also, does anyone outside the NATO/EU sphere and its direct allies (Australia, New Zealand) look at the US or NATO to solve major conflicts? Obviously those countries do, cause they have positioned themselves / have been positioned in the US's sphere of influence, and often depend on the US for military purposes. But anyone else? Is this 'US World Police' a very NATO/EU perspective? (Well, also South Korea and Taiwan I suppose, at least in their own regions, and maybe to a lesser extent Japan and some Latin American countries? South Africa? That still leaves a good part of South America and most of Africa and Asia out though.)

 

[Raoul]

My country's economy is extremely dependent on Russia, and I am absolutely ready to feel the hit. I have been feeling it already. Defeating the russism, is key to worlds stability. Letting it go on, results even in bigger disasters.

This is key, although I would add that Putin's regime has to fall and Russia go democratic for such a stability to be realized.

 

[harms]

Harms, on another note are the sanctions being felt in daily life? Our national broadcaster showed very empty shopping malls and increased food prices bit I don't know if they were cherry picking.

Moscow is different from the rest of the country, but the food prices & prices in general have been rising quite significantly. Obviously the prices on the more expensive/complicated stuff to make, most of which is being imported — cars, phones, computers, washing machines (now forever linked to this invasion) etc. have skyrocketed, a lot of those goods have already disappeared from the shelves (big stores only rely on what they have on storages now) while companies try to set up a "parallel import" routes (legitimised contraband) or find new partners in China/India etc.

Shopping malls are really struggling since a lot of foreign brands have either suspended their activity or permanently left — IKEA, H&M, Zara, Uniqlo, adidas, Nike, McDonalds etc. And obviously you can't replace them all at once even with drastically inferior products. Cinemas have lost around 70% of their regular audience since most of the big studios don't allow their movies to be distributed in Russia anymore. The unemployment rates have, again, skyrocketed — foreign corporations are leaving, any business that was reliant on import & export have taken a huge hit, entertainment and service industry is struggling since people aren't spending on it etc.

I'm still not sure what they're going to do about aviation. They've kept all the foreign planes that were leased out to Russian companies for internal flights (since they're going to be arrested the moment they land in a non-Russian airport), but there's already a critical shortage of spare parts and details that are absolutely integral for their functionality (and it's not that easy to import them through different channels since it's such a closed market). Russian planes aren't fully Russian either — even U.S. couldn't make a proper passenger plane without any foreign details if it was suddenly cut off from the outside world... and U.S. is light years ahead of Russia in terms of aviaconstruction.

It's a bit of a paradox that those who are opposed to the war felt the first wave of the sanctions the hardest, since you're being actively cut off from the outside world (not that I support the constant moaning from that group, there are way more important issues at the moment) — something that isn't immediately felt by people who live in smaller towns/villages (where the biggest employer is always the government — schools, police, prisons, oil/gas/mining industry etc.), older people (reliant on their pensions and are unlikely to travel a lot). The rise in food prices and the exodus of huge corporations like McDonalds, IKEA, car manufacturers who have employed hundreds of thousands of people, are now being felt by them as well though. And it's only going to get worse.

 

[Gehrman]

Moscow is different from the rest of the country, but the food prices & prices in general have been rising quite significantly. Obviously the prices on the more expensive/complicated stuff to make, most of which is being imported — cars, phones, computers, washing machines (now forever linked to this invasion) etc. have skyrocketed, a lot of those goods have already disappeared from the shelves (big stores only rely on what they have on storages now) while companies try to set up a "parallel import" routes (legitimised contraband) or find new partners in China/India etc.

Shopping malls are really struggling since a lot of foreign brands have either suspended their activity or permanently left — IKEA, H&M, Zara, Uniqlo, adidas, Nike, McDonalds etc. And obviously you can't replace them all at once even with drastically inferior products. Cinemas have lost around 70% of their regular audience since most of the big studios don't allow their movies to be distributed in Russia anymore. The unemployment rates have, again, skyrocketed — foreign corporations are leaving, any business that was reliant on import & export have taken a huge hit, entertainment and service industry is struggling since people aren't spending on it etc.

I'm still not sure what they're going to do about aviation. They've kept all the foreign planes that were leased out to Russian companies for internal flights (since they're going to be arrested the moment they land in a non-Russian airport), but there's already a critical shortage of spare parts and details that are absolutely integral for their functionality (and it's not that easy to import them through different channels since it's such a closed market). Russian planes aren't fully Russian either — even U.S. couldn't make a proper passenger plane without any foreign details if it was suddenly cut off from the outside world... and U.S. is light years ahead of Russia in terms of aviaconstruction.

It's a bit of a paradox that those who are opposed to the war felt the first wave of the sanctions the hardest, since you're being actively cut off from the outside world (not that I support the constant moaning from that group, there are way more important issues at the moment) — something that isn't immediately felt by people who live in smaller towns/villages (where the biggest employer is always the government — schools, police, prisons, oil/gas/mining industry etc.), older people (reliant on their pensions and are unlikely to travel a lot). The rise in food prices and the exodus of huge corporations like McDonalds, IKEA, car manufacturers who have employed hundreds of thousands of people, are now being felt by them as well though. And it's only going to get worse.

Thank you very much for that iluminating post.

 

[MoskvaRed]

A few thoughts on the question of prolonging the war and thereby increasing the suffering of those on low incomes (poverty in the West, maybe actual starvation elsewhere):

1. Only one party is responsible for these problems - Russia. It invaded Ukraine on the flimsiest of excuses (after previously invading 8 years ago), and Ukraine is fighting for its survival.

2. The food problems are not incidental - food supply has been deliberately weaponised by Russia.

3. The US, the UK and other Western nations are wealthy enough to alleviate the sufferings of their own populations by redistributive taxation. The fact they do not or perhaps cannot do so due to dysfunction in their respective political systems is not Ukraine’s responsibility.

4. The West (particularly Europe) has a very real strategic interest in not allowing a revanchist, ultra-nationalist state to keep seeking to re-draw the borders of the East of the continent. It is fully justified in supporting Ukraine even (unfortunately) at the expense of suffering outside of Europe.

5. China, which has no strategic interest in Europe’s Eastern border, has great leverage over Russia due to Russia’s self-driven isolation from the West. It has failed (at least publicly) to lift a finger to deter the aggressor, while appearing largely exempt from criticism (unlike the flak aimed at the West for driving developing countries into destitution).

6. Having invested enormous amounts in various developing countries’ infrastructure as part of its belt and road project, China does have an interest in maintaining a level of stability in those countries. If several of those countries fall into serious civil unrest as a result of bankruptcy and food shortages, it probably will at some point be forced to use its influence on Russia.

Conclusion - for so long as Ukraine is willing to fight, the West should support it as, besides being both morally and strategically the right thing to do, Russia cannot use food blackmail for an extended period without risking alienating the one country which has sufficient leverage to force it to backdown.

 

[maniak]

Conclusion - for so long as Ukraine is willing to fight, the West should support it as, besides being both morally and strategically the right thing to do, Russia cannot use food blackmail for an extended period without risking alienating the one country which has sufficient leverage to force it to backdown.

If there was any morality to any of this, then the west would be helping the victims of putin elsewhere.

 

[Raoul]

If there was any morality to any of this, then the west would be helping the victims of putin elsewhere.

It is already helping the victims of Putin in Ukraine

 

[maniak]

It is already helping the victims of Putin in Ukraine

I guess you missed the last word.

 

[Raoul]

I guess you missed the last word.

Why not help us out by defining what you mean.

 

[maniak]

Why not help us out by defining what you mean.

It's obvious what I mean. If the west's decision to help putin's victims was based on morality then we'd be helping his victims from other non-european countries. If we want ukranian soldiers to keep fighting, we obviously have to help their families when they flee. It's war strategy, not a moral decision.

I'm obviously not talking about the many civilians who stepped up to help all across europe, individuals often do it for moral reasons. I'm talking about governments.

It's a bid odd having to point this out, I mean, you know how politics work.

I hope I'm mistaken and when the people in africa who don't get their food shipments from ukraine start starving and try to find any semblance of future in europe, we'll welcome them with open arms. They will be putin's victims too.

 

[Raoul]

It's obvious what I mean. If the west's decision to help putin's victims was based on morality then we'd be helping his victims from other non-european countries. If we want ukranian soldiers to keep fighting, we obviously have to help their families when they flee. It's war strategy, not a moral decision.

I'm obviously not talking about the many civilians who stepped up to help all across europe, individuals often do it for moral reasons. I'm talking about governments.

It's a bid odd having to point this out, I mean, you know how politics work.

I hope I'm mistaken and when the people in africa who don't get their food shipments from ukraine start starving and try to find any semblance of future in europe, we'll welcome them with open arms. They will be putin's victims too.

All of these issues are knock on effects tied to defeating Putin in Ukraine, which is correctly where all the attention and resources should be applied. The NATO/EU response to the invasion has been moral, geo-political, and strategic - none of which are mutually exclusive from one another. If there's a food shortage elsewhere, then that can be dealt with through the appropriate response by the rest of the world.

 

[cyberman]

I don’t understand how letting Russia take over the worlds food supply is a good thing to be honest.

 

[neverdie]

moral, geo-political, and strategic - none of which are mutually exclusive from one another.

don't disagree with your overall point but morality and strategy are often mutually exclusive if not typically. national interest sets the agenda and that means governments often do very immoral things for what they justify as strategic interest. i'd say morality has almost nothing to do with the response here except for individual people, or general population, who think it's the morally correct thing to do (taking in refugees as one example). but this population is also the one which is usually most ignorant or uncaring about all the other immoral things they support, through their governments, in other parts of the world with not taking in refugees from crises the west created or helped create if you want in Libya and Syria and other places being another example.

on topic, i heard talk of potential UN agreement to move Ukrainian foodstuffs beyond the mined Ukrainian ports and the Russian blockade beyond that. would have to convince Russia, though, and I can only see India or China being able to do that.

author is basically pro-Russian from what I can garner but does have good insight into the economic situation if you overlook his pro-Putin bias.


https://thecradle.co/Article/columns/11928

The Russia-Iran-India corridor

A key node of the International North South Transportation Corridor (INTSC) is now in play, linking northwest Russia to the Persian Gulf via the Caspian Sea and Iran. The transportation time between St. Petersburg and Indian ports is 25 days.

This logistical corridor with multimodal transportation carries an enormous geopolitical significance for two BRICs members and a prospective member of the “new G8” because it opens a key alternative route to the usual cargo trail from Asia to Europe via the Suez canal.

The INSTC corridor is a classic South-South integration project: a 7,200-km-long multimodal network of ship, rail, and road routes interlinking India, Afghanistan, Central Asia, Iran, Azerbaijan and Russia all the way to Finland in the Baltic Sea.

Technically, picture a set of containers going overland from St. Petersburg to Astrakhan. Then the cargo sails via the Caspian to the Iranian port of Bandar Anzeli. Then it’s transported overland to the port of Bandar Abbas. And then overseas to Nava Sheva, the largest seaport in India. The key operator is Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines (the IRISL group), which has branches in both Russia and India.

on China, Russia, and others forming an alternative G8 and potential consequences.

 

[maniak]

All of these issues are knock on effects tied to defeating Putin in Ukraine, which is correctly where all the attention and resources should be applied. The NATO/EU response to the invasion has been moral, geo-political, and strategic - none of which are mutually exclusive from one another. If there's a food shortage elsewhere, then that can be dealt with through the appropriate response by the rest of the world.

OK, the moral part I think it's you living in dreamland, but lets leave that aside.

Since we know the food shortage won't be dealt with and millions will die, we should at least be honest about the consequences of our decisions. Supporting ukraine to fight till the end and concede no territory will have these effects elsewhere. Putin is to blame for starting it all, no question, but the response has consequences too.

I'm not happy with politicians completely ignoring the brutal devastation that prolonging this will cause in non-western nations.

It's easy having this "you shall not pass" attitude when it's other folks who will pay the price.

I'll repeat again because I feel it coming. I have no answer to this, it's a fecked up decision either way and I don't envy the folks having to make it. What I can not stand is completely ignoring the millions who will die when talking about these decisions. It's a bit disgusting really.

 

[Raoul]

don't disagree with your overall point but morality and strategy are often mutually exclusive if not typically. national interest sets the agenda and that means governments often do very immoral things for what they justify as strategic interest. i'd say morality has almost nothing to do with the response here except for individual people, or general population, who think it's the morally correct thing to do. but this population is also the one which is usually most ignorant or uncaring about all the other immoral things they support, through their governments, in other parts of the world.

on topic, i heard talk of potential UN agreement to move Ukrainian foodstuffs beyond the mined Ukrainian ports and the Russian blockade beyond that. would have to convince Russia, though, and I can only see India or China being able to do that.

There is a strong moral component to it given that publics in democratic systems are saddened and appalled by a slaughter taking place on their own doorstep. That is obviously going to influence politicians, who may also independently have their own moral views, to where it all factors into their overall calculus on policy choices. This is why imo, morality and geo-political considerations are interwoven.

 

[Raoul]

OK, the moral part I think it's you living in dreamland, but lets leave that aside.

Since we know the food shortage won't be dealt with and millions will die, we should at least be honest about the consequences of our decisions. Supporting ukraine to fight till the end and concede no territory will have these effects elsewhere. Putin is to blame for starting it all, no question, but the response has consequences too.

I'm not happy with politicians completely ignoring the brutal devastation that prolonging this will cause in non-western nations.

It's easy having this "you shall not pass" attitude when it's other folks who will pay the price.

I'll repeat again because I feel it coming. I have no answer to this, it's a fecked up decision either way and I don't envy the folks having to make it. What I can not stand is completely ignoring the millions who will die when talking about these decisions. It's a bit disgusting really.

Its the Ukrainians' choice to defend their own country and its in the world's interest to not allow Putin to foment a potential genocide in Ukraine, then feel emboldened to continue his march into Europe. This would 100% happen if the west withdrew its support to appease your view. Would that be a favorable result for you in exchange for getting a bit more wheat to developing countries ?

 

[maniak]

Its the Ukrainians' choice to defend their own country and its in the world's interest to not allow Putin to foment a potential genocide in Ukraine, then feel emboldened to continue his march into Europe. This would 100% happen if the west withdrew its support to appease your view. Would that be a favorable result for you in exchange for getting a bit more wheat to developing countries ?

The west is not the world. Or do you think the folk in countries where these famines will devastate communities agree with you?

Putin can't march into kiev, let alone europe.

I said multiple times, I don't have an answer and I'm glad I'm not the one making it.

My issue is with ignoring that prolonging the war will cause millions to die. We simply don't see that in the news, apart from a footnote here and there. Democracies and informed decisions, I guess.

 

[tomaldinho1]

OK, the moral part I think it's you living in dreamland, but lets leave that aside.

Since we know the food shortage won't be dealt with and millions will die, we should at least be honest about the consequences of our decisions. Supporting ukraine to fight till the end and concede no territory will have these effects elsewhere. Putin is to blame for starting it all, no question, but the response has consequences too.

I'm not happy with politicians completely ignoring the brutal devastation that prolonging this will cause in non-western nations.

It's easy having this "you shall not pass" attitude when it's other folks who will pay the price.

I'll repeat again because I feel it coming. I have no answer to this, it's a fecked up decision either way and I don't envy the folks having to make it. What I can not stand is completely ignoring the millions who will die when talking about these decisions. It's a bit disgusting really.

That’s not what’s going to happen re food crisis. Feel there’s a bit of hysteria creeping in without any research here:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Raoul]

The west is not the world. Or do you think the folk in countries where these famines will devastate communities agree with you?

Putin can't march into kiev, let alone europe.

I said multiple times, I don't have an answer and I'm glad I'm not the one making it.

My issue is with ignoring that prolonging the war will cause millions to die. We simply don't see that in the news, apart from a footnote here and there. Democracies and informed decisions, I guess.

The only reason he has been thwarted so far is because of western military aid. As to your latter point, its up to the rest of the world to start chipping in resources to help those areas affected by resource shortages. Its not up to NATO and the EU alone to do all the heavy lifting.

 

[Water Melon]

OK, the moral part I think it's you living in dreamland, but lets leave that aside.

Since we know the food shortage won't be dealt with and millions will die, we should at least be honest about the consequences of our decisions. Supporting ukraine to fight till the end and concede no territory will have these effects elsewhere. Putin is to blame for starting it all, no question, but the response has consequences too.

I'm not happy with politicians completely ignoring the brutal devastation that prolonging this will cause in non-western nations.

It's easy having this "you shall not pass" attitude when it's other folks who will pay the price.

I'll repeat again because I feel it coming. I have no answer to this, it's a fecked up decision either way and I don't envy the folks having to make it. What I can not stand is completely ignoring the millions who will die when talking about these decisions. It's a bit disgusting really.

If millions will die it is because of Putin. Ukraine are not giving an inch of their territory and the West are ready to support them for the sake of stability in Europe first and foremost. Asking Ukraine to forget about the damage caused, concede their territory and continue to live under further existential threat of Russia is immoral. The world needs to put pressure on Putin not on Zelenskyy. USA, UK and all neighbour countries are hell bent on keeping Ukranian territorial integrity and defeating russism once and for all. If you want to help Africa, talk to Putin. Zelenskyy is ready to deliver wheat and corn despite of the war. Putin, being the war criminal that he is, continues to kill Ukranians and is ready to kill millions through starvation. African nations need to address Putin. Ukraine have already paid way too much, far more than anyone else in this war.

 

[neverdie]

There is a strong moral component to it given that publics in democratic systems are saddened and appalled by a slaughter taking place on their own doorstep. That is obviously going to influence politicians, who may also independently have their own moral views, to where it factors into their overall calculus on policy choices. This is why imo, morality and geo-political considerations are interwoven.

kind of agree. i don't view entire states and political representatives as having no morality at all as they're people. just in the strict or almost pointlessly abstract sense there is often a conflict between what we think we stand for and what we actually do. helping to arm Ukraine doesn't fall into that though so long as there are boundaries between support and direct military involvement.

 

[maniak]

That’s not what’s going to happen re food crisis. Feel there’s a bit of hysteria creeping in without any research here:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Maybe, I just read what the WFP said in the report, an added 40 million in extreme hunger because of the ukraine situation. I assume they are on top of things and not making stuff up.

 

[maniak]

The only reason he has been thwarted so far is because of western military aid. As to your latter point, its up to the rest of the world to start chipping in resources to help those areas affected by resource shortages. Its not up to NATO and the EU alone to do all the heavy lifting.

I would love to have your confidence that all the terrible things that are to come are solely putin's responsibility and all those dead will be morally justified.

But I'm not and I don't believe the public at large is well informed. Or worse, they are but because it's brown fold dying they kinda don't care.

 

[VorZakone]

I would love to have your confidence that all the terrible things that are to come are solely putin's responsibility and all those dead will be morally justified.

But I'm not and I don't believe the public at large is well informed. Or worse, they are but because it's brown fold dying they kinda don't care.

I get your concerns. However, there are more stakeholders here. The Russians might not listen to the West but they'll perhaps listen to China. If more non-Western countries ask China to throw its weight at Russia, that could help solve the food crisis.