Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

RedDevilQuebecois

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
8,250
Never going to happen, especially not with Russia ramping up nuclear weapons programs.

The real problem is that Russia never denuclearized itself quickly enough after 1991 and were seeking for any excuse to get out of all treaties while the West went too far ahead without keeping an eye for proportionality in the mutual denuclearization process.
 

neverdie

Full Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
2,409
Never going to happen, especially not with Russia ramping up nuclear weapons programs.

The real problem is that Russia never denuclearized itself quickly enough after 1991 and were seeking for any excuse to get out of all treaties while the West went too far ahead without keeping an eye for proportionality in the mutual denuclearization process.
wasn't it the trump administration which pulled out of the denuclearization treaty? the one that limited each side's stock? pretty sure it was.
 

Don't Kill Bill

Full Member
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
5,681
To believe that nuclear deterrents are useless at this point in time, you would have to believe that; had Ukraine retained its nukes Russia would still have invaded, that Russia's nukes played no part in the wests thinking around how to respond and that removing them right now to give Russia its win wouldn't encourage further aggression or coercion.

All this following an attack on a previously non aligned non nuclear country.

Great thinking there, we should definitely do this Steve what could possibly go wrong?
 

Rajma

Full Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2012
Messages
8,581
Location
Lithuania
It’s crazy how few in Europe listened to the warnings from Poland/Baltics that imperialist Russia will weaponize the energy supplies when the time comes, you only needed to have alternatives to switch to quickly and some contingency planning. This is a feck up of enormous proportions.
 

frostbite

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
3,360
It’s crazy how few in Europe listened to the warnings from Poland/Baltics that imperialist Russia will weaponize the energy supplies when the time comes, you only needed to have alternatives to switch to quickly and some contingency planning. This is a feck up of enormous proportions.
You are right. Add to that the simple fact that Russia had a KGB president who crushed democracy in his country. And the fact that Russians tried to cause problems inside many Western countries. And the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. And many many other indications that Russia is a big problem.

After all that, I wonder what did the numerous "security analysts" advice in their reports to the politicians? And what did the Western politicians decide to do and why? It is crazy that in 2021 some European politicians were still enthusiastic about Nord Stream 2. Why did we have so much complacency in the West?
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
8,163
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
To believe that nuclear deterrents are useless at this point in time, you would have to believe that; had Ukraine retained its nukes Russia would still have invaded, that Russia's nukes played no part in the wests thinking around how to respond and that removing them right now to give Russia its win wouldn't encourage further aggression or coercion.

All this following an attack on a previously non aligned non nuclear country.

Great thinking there, we should definitely do this Steve what could possibly go wrong?
I mean, if it's just about the nukes close to the border, the question is if this wouldn't just be a symbolic act Putin could sell as a victory. When a single MAD submarine is enough to wipe out Russi, it's not as if you'd give up all deterrents you have.

Just for the record, I don't support his idea.
 

Simbo

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
5,238
You are right. Add to that the simple fact that Russia had a KGB president who crushed democracy in his country. And the fact that Russians tried to cause problems inside many Western countries. And the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. And many many other indications that Russia is a big problem.

After all that, I wonder what did the numerous "security analysts" advice in their reports to the politicians? And what did the Western politicians decide to do and why? It is crazy that in 2021 some European politicians were still enthusiastic about Nord Stream 2. Why did we have so much complacency in the West?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 

Carolina Red

Moderator
Staff
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
36,528
Location
South Carolina
After all that, I wonder what did the numerous "security analysts" advice in their reports to the politicians? And what did the Western politicians decide to do and why?
A lot of it is what Simbo says here…
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
To look at just one example… I follow UK MOD happenings just as a hobby because I like military history etc. and for years and years security analysts and military leaders warned the government that the British military was becoming a paper tiger in the name of saving £’s, but politicians continued to make decisions to cut capabilities and patch the holes over with “new technologies” that didn’t come to fruition. The 2015 and 2021 Defense white papers have started to try and reverse it, but they’ve got a lot of damage done to overcome.
 

the hea

Full Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
6,340
Location
North of the wall
To look at just one example… I follow UK MOD happenings just as a hobby because I like military history etc. and for years and years security analysts and military leaders warned the government that the British military was becoming a paper tiger in the name of saving £’s, but politicians continued to make decisions to cut capabilities and patch the holes over with “new technologies” that didn’t come to fruition. The 2015 and 2021 Defense white papers have started to try and reverse it, but they’ve got a lot of damage done to overcome.
This has happened in a lot of European countries. Since the end of the cold war most western European countries have masively cut the spending on their armed forces and comletely ignored the security threats that still exist.
 

frostbite

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
3,360
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
A lot of it is what Simbo says here…

To look at just one example… I follow UK MOD happenings just as a hobby because I like military history etc. and for years and years security analysts and military leaders warned the government that the British military was becoming a paper tiger in the name of saving £’s, but politicians continued to make decisions to cut capabilities and patch the holes over with “new technologies” that didn’t come to fruition. The 2015 and 2021 Defense white papers have started to try and reverse it, but they’ve got a lot of damage done to overcome.
Yes, it is money and corruption. And Putin definitely invested heavily in the corruption of our societies. Even today, after such a terrible war and so many dead Ukrainians, nobody investigates or blames anyone, like nothing happened at all and all the politicians and decision makers have zero responsibility. I haven't even read any investigative journalism talking about these issues.
 

Simbo

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
5,238
Yes, it is money and corruption. And Putin definitely invested heavily in the corruption of our societies. Even today, after such a terrible war and so many dead Ukrainians, nobody investigates or blames anyone, like nothing happened at all and all the politicians and decision makers have zero responsibility. I haven't even read any investigative journalism talking about these issues.
It’s mad how little coverage it gets. 4 years ago a money laundering investigation uncovered $234 Billion (with a B) was funnelled from Russia into various banks, trusts, shell companies, etc in the west through a single Estonian branch of a Danish bank between 2007-2014.

That’s just one instance, how much cash do we think the Russian elite have laundered in total since Putin took control? A trillion is probably lowballing it. There are countless places pretty much set up to hide this kind of money, in the US, UK/offshores, etc and don’t get me started on crypto. This money can be all too easily weaponised. Whenever I hear someone talking some random bollocks that just so happens fits in to the Russian narrative, it’s the first thing that comes to mind.
 

Don't Kill Bill

Full Member
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
5,681
A lot of it is what Simbo says here…

To look at just one example… I follow UK MOD happenings just as a hobby because I like military history etc. and for years and years security analysts and military leaders warned the government that the British military was becoming a paper tiger in the name of saving £’s, but politicians continued to make decisions to cut capabilities and patch the holes over with “new technologies” that didn’t come to fruition. The 2015 and 2021 Defense white papers have started to try and reverse it, but they’ve got a lot of damage done to overcome.
The UK went with a pipeline to Norwegian gas rather than rely on Russian supply. In the end there is only so much pie to divide up. If you want a national health service you can't spend so much on defence.
 

Beans

Full Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
3,519
Location
Midwest, USA
Supports
Neutral
It’s mad how little coverage it gets. 4 years ago a money laundering investigation uncovered $234 Billion (with a B) was funnelled from Russia into various banks, trusts, shell companies, etc in the west through a single Estonian branch of a Danish bank between 2007-2014.

That’s just one instance, how much cash do we think the Russian elite have laundered in total since Putin took control? A trillion is probably lowballing it. There are countless places pretty much set up to hide this kind of money, in the US, UK/offshores, etc and don’t get me started on crypto. This money can be all too easily weaponised. Whenever I hear someone talking some random bollocks that just so happens fits in to the Russian narrative, it’s the first thing that comes to mind.
The West does a terrible job of making sure we all know how criminal the Russia regime is. Isn't it time they start making this stuff front page news? I can see how, in the past, hoping to lull Russia into normalizing relations by offering access to the West, you'd want to minimalist these things, so your own citizens don't demand you hold them to account and apply leverage.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
11,191
The West does a terrible job of making sure we all know how criminal the Russia regime is. Isn't it time they start making this stuff front page news? I can see how, in the past, hoping to lull Russia into normalizing relations by offering access to the West, you'd want to minimalist these things, so your own citizens don't demand you hold them to account and apply leverage.
The money laundering stuff through a Danish bank was front page stuff here in Denmark for weeks.
 

the hea

Full Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
6,340
Location
North of the wall
The money laundering stuff through a Danish bank was front page stuff here in Denmark for weeks.
I think it was the main news in all of the Nordic countries. It wasn't just Danske Bank that got cought either, from memory at least DNB, Swedbank and Nordea have similar investigations ongoing against them just not on the same scale as Danske Bank.
 

Beans

Full Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
3,519
Location
Midwest, USA
Supports
Neutral
The money laundering stuff through a Danish bank was front page stuff here in Denmark for weeks.
I suppose I only check the US and UK news, and not as regularly in the past as more recently.

Even if it was headline news here, I just generally mean that the news will repeat false Russian claims and I don't feel like I hear about their dirt nearly as often as their fake claims. It would be helpful, for the sorts in the US especially on the right who want to pick up Russian propaganda claims as a stick with which to beat the Democrats.

Your average American doesn't know enough about what Russia really is, a criminal state.
 

the hea

Full Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
6,340
Location
North of the wall

Here we go?
The Russians have been building a pontoon bridge next to it in the last couple of days, after it was heavily damaged by the last strikes. Will be interesting to see if they have taken down both the pontoon and the Antonovsky bridge, if so the Russian troops in and around Kherson are cut off from any resupplies right now.
 

TMDaines

Fun sponge.
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
14,016
Putin himself acted quite friendly to Europe/"the West" in earlier years...
The film Putin's Witnesses (2018) is absolutely fascinating and has a number of candid interviews from his early presidential years. He openly talks about wanting to ensure that he governs in a manner where he can seemingly step back into society once his term ends and have a family life, not understanding those who want to become a dictator for life. It's quite remarkable and he appears very sincere.
 

frostbite

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
3,360
The film Putin's Witnesses (2018) is absolutely fascinating and has a number of candid interviews from his early presidential years. He openly talks about wanting to ensure that he governs in a manner where he can seemingly step back into society once his term ends and have a family life, not understanding those who want to become a dictator for life. It's quite remarkable and he appears very sincere.
One of the first things they learn at KGB is to lie about everything. You and me can be fooled, but the various security services of the western countries? I don't think so. Which makes is very strange that western leaders where "surprised" he was lying all along. Like Merkel ( who grew up in East Germany ffs !!! )
 

Carolina Red

Moderator
Staff
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
36,528
Location
South Carolina
The film Putin's Witnesses (2018) is absolutely fascinating and has a number of candid interviews from his early presidential years. He openly talks about wanting to ensure that he governs in a manner where he can seemingly step back into society once his term ends and have a family life, not understanding those who want to become a dictator for life. It's quite remarkable and he appears very sincere.
Yeah, but his actions between when he was the #2 guy to Sobchak and then the #2 guy to Yeltsin tell a different story.