Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

VorZakone

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He needs to give them the Saab planes then. I'm sad at the apathy that seems to have set in about Ukraine. Obviously things don't always go to plan in war, it doesn't mean you just give up. It was right then and it's still right now that we should arm them with everything we reasonably can to help them win. I'm no fan of the military industrial complex but sign the deals needed to arm Ukraine.
Personally I think the idea that Ukraine can defeat Russia on the battlefield just isn't realistic.

But that in itself shouldn't necessarily be an alarming thing. We have historical examples of countries quitting a war because of rising economic costs or the political leaders realising there's nothing to gain by continuing it.

In this case I think there has to be a lot more economic pressure on Russia. Make Putin feel like he's really going to run out of money if he continues.

And in the meantime more aid to Ukraine.
 

TwoSheds

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Personally I think the idea that Ukraine can defeat Russia on the battlefield just isn't realistic.

But that in itself shouldn't necessarily be an alarming thing. We have historical examples of countries quitting a war because of rising economic costs or the political leaders realising there's nothing to gain by continuing it.

In this case I think there has to be a lot more economic pressure on Russia. Make Putin feel like he's really going to run out of money if he continues.

And in the meantime more aid to Ukraine.
Exactly. Whether they win or not, give them everything we can to help them punish Russia's military and economy as much as possible as well as minimise the Ukrainian casualties. We in the collective west should be on a quasi war footing right now and it seems so half hearted.
 

RedDevilQuebecois

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I swaer to God that Ukrainian generals must be incompetent as feck when they don't find a way to take better advantage of the situation and thus choose to get bogged down in a war of attrition. Everyone and the dog know that Russia is never beaten in a war of attrition. It is often beaten through a series of morale-crushing defeats that make the Russians lose hope for any better outcome.
 
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VorZakone

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I swaer to God that Ukrainian generals must incompetent as feck when they don't find a way to take better advantage of the situation and thus choose to get bogged down in a war of attrition. Everyone and the dog know that Russia is never beaten in a war of attrition. It is often beaten through a series of morale-crushing defeats that make the Russians lose hope for any better outcome.
But what do you propose to Ukrainian military leadership then?

The one thing I'm wondering is what the West is advising Ukraine to do. We know they're doing wargame simulations. We know Ukraine receives Western intel on Russian military movements.
 

RedDevilQuebecois

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But what do you propose to Ukrainian military leadership then?

The one thing I'm wondering is what the West is advising Ukraine to do. We know they're doing wargame simulations. We know Ukraine receives Western intel on Russian military movements.
Using those newly acquired Western tanks in battle would be a good start instead of keeping them at the back or in positions where their ful potential is not exploited. Business Insider wrote an article about the topic over a week ago. The following part of the text is shocking.

The lack of a major role for these tanks was notable in Ukraine's counteroffensive operations in Zaporizhzhia, an important offensive axis.

Ukraine sought to break through Russian defenses, opening an area wide enough to then allow its tanks and armored vehicles to travel safely. Once there, the goal was to use those tanks against less extensive defenses, wreak havoc, and enable further breakthroughs. Ultimately, Ukraine wanted to drive a line down to the Sea of Azov, slicing Russian occupied territory in two and cutting the so-called "land bridge" between Russia and Crimea.

The results were ineffective, and as winter comes, Ukraine is now facing the stark reality of a counteroffensive that hasn't gained much territory and potential future Russian offensives, like the one happening in Avdiivka now.
For the record, the Abrams tanks have not seen any action in Ukraine so far at all.:houllier::nono:
 

Rajma

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Using those newly acquired Western tanks in battle would be a good start instead of keeping them at the back or in positions where their ful potential is not exploited. Business Insider wrote an article about the topic over a week ago. The following part of the text is shocking.



For the record, the Abrams tanks have not seen any action in Ukraine so far at all.:houllier::nono:
You understand that when you go in on the offensive you will burn through the equipment without the air support / defense? Ukraine obviously doesn’t want to waste strategic reserves when west have failed to pledge new heavy armor to replace what they currently have? We have failed them badly. No general worth their salt will allow an army to run out of the equipment.

NATO sec. admits himself that current battlefield issues are to do with lack of western support:


Former US 4 star general:

 
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maniak

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Hamas and israel really helping russia here, this is hardly in the news anymore.
 

ExoduS

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I swaer to God that Ukrainian generals must be incompetent as feck when they don't find a way to take better advantage of the situation and thus choose to get bogged down in a war of attrition. Everyone and the dog know that Russia is never beaten in a war of attrition. It is often beaten through a series of morale-crushing defeats that make the Russians lose hope for any better outcome.
I thought NATO is providing intelligence.
 

VorZakone

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Redut PMC is run by the Russian GRU.

Redut was created “so that people could avoid paying taxes or, for example, any court costs,” one recruiter told Systema.

This arrangement also allows the Russian government and military to maintain a layer of legal distance from the many fighters and units under the umbrella of this ostensibly private organization.
 

VorZakone

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Moscow raises troop levels, citing Ukraine war, NATO expansion

Russia is boosting the number of troops in its military for the second time in 15 months, citing the war in Ukraine and the expansion of the NATO defense alliance.

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday ordered the military to increase the number of troops by nearly 170,000 to a total of 1.3 million as the Ukraine war grinds on after 21 months. Putin’s decree, which entered into force immediately, brings the overall number of Russian military personnel to 2.2 million, including 1.3 million troops.
https://www.politico.eu/article/rus...ases-its-troop-numbers-by-170000-ukraine-war/
 

VorZakone

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Klitscho making a play against Zelensky?

Klitschko says Ukraine is turning authoritarian as conflict with Zelensky persists


Kyiv Mayor Vitali Klitschko has told Der Spiegel that Ukraine is moving towards authoritarianism, seemingly making a veiled criticism of President Volodymyr Zelensky. "At some point we will no longer be any different from Russia, where everything depends on the whim of one man," the former heavyweight boxing champion said in a Dec. 1 interview.

Zelensky's spokesman Serhiy Nikiforov did not respond to a request for comment by the time of publication.

The Kyiv mayor said that Ukraine was leaderless and chaotic in the opening months of the full-scale war, and credited Ukraine's mayors with playing key leadership roles, protecting their residents and supporting the military.
https://kyivindependent.com/klitsch...ritarian-as-conflict-with-president-persists/
 

harms

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But that in itself shouldn't necessarily be an alarming thing. We have historical examples of countries quitting a war because of rising economic costs or the political leaders realising there's nothing to gain by continuing it.

In this case I think there has to be a lot more economic pressure on Russia. Make Putin feel like he's really going to run out of money if he continues.
I don't think that the realpolitik approach works with Putin. He already crashed his entire economy to the point that the additional sanctions from the West can scarcely hit harder... and he still keeps going. While China & co are happy to keep Russia's economy on life-support in the meantime.
 

harms

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Anton Barbashin, who is generally good on all things Russia, suggests Putin may do another mobilisation after the March election.

It's pretty much a certainty at this point.
 

VorZakone

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I don't think that the realpolitik approach works with Putin. He already crashed his entire economy to the point that the additional sanctions from the West can scarcely hit harder... and he still keeps going. While China & co are happy to keep Russia's economy on life-support in the meantime.
I'm not sure this is true? I thought I read a couple of pieces on Russia circumventing Western energy sanctions and the West looking into new ways to counter that. So I don't think the West has fully invested itself yet on attacking Russia's energy revenue.

https://www.ft.com/content/277c1f9c-3f0f-4562-b0f0-80b390012087
(no paywall, at least not for me anyway)
 

harms

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If he does another mobilisation, will he announce it or will it happen in silence?
The silent one is already happening (it never stopped). But if he needs another 100k+, he'll need to say something.
 

The United

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We will never know what would have happened if the Ukr forces pushed on the south last year instead of defending Bakhmut like how they did.

They are not even close to recapture it now.
 

VorZakone

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We will never know what would have happened if the Ukr forces pushed on the south last year instead of defending Bakhmut like how they did.

They are not even close to recapture it now.
Maybe the Wagner-MoD tension doesn't happen without Bakhmut...
 

Morty_

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We will never know what would have happened if the Ukr forces pushed on the south last year instead of defending Bakhmut like how they did.

They are not even close to recapture it now.
Bakhmut isn't important in itself, what would have happened if they didn't defend it? Well, Russia then goes on to attack other cities close by, one can argue if that was worth defending the area or not, but it probably was.

In any case, southern offensive would have stalled anyway, due to Avdiivka, which has real strategic importance, Ukraine had to commit here, no other options.
 

The United

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Bakhmut isn't important in itself, what would have happened if they didn't defend it? Well, Russia then goes on to attack other cities close by, one can argue if that was worth defending the area or not, but it probably was.

In any case, southern offensive would have stalled anyway, due to Avdiivka, which has real strategic importance, Ukraine had to commit here, no other options.
Bakhmut was the baldie's intention. Once they got it, they would have probably left anyway which they did. What happened was that the UKR troops lost some of their best troops there preventing tons of RU prisoners from coming into the city who would have left with that guy after the capture of the city. And, Russians were saving their best troops and preparing the South.

The Ukrainians still have outer defense lines to fortify to prevent the RU marching from the city. Of course, it is not without risks.

If the UKR push on the south was successful, the Russians had to send their troops there, relieving the pressure from elsewhere. But the biggest advantage for UKR in that scenario would be probably not having too many extensive defensive modifications to overcome. By the time more equipment arrived in the spring, they would have been on their front foot for some big breakthroughs.

But hindsight is 20:20, of course.
 
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MadMike

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I swaer to God that Ukrainian generals must be incompetent as feck when they don't find a way to take better advantage of the situation and thus choose to get bogged down in a war of attrition. Everyone and the dog know that Russia is never beaten in a war of attrition. It is often beaten through a series of morale-crushing defeats that make the Russians lose hope for any better outcome.
Is that what happened in Afghanistan, crushing defeats instead of attrition?
 

Phil Jones Face

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Using those newly acquired Western tanks in battle would be a good start instead of keeping them at the back or in positions where their ful potential is not exploited. Business Insider wrote an article about the topic over a week ago. The following part of the text is shocking.



For the record, the Abrams tanks have not seen any action in Ukraine so far at all.:houllier::nono:
I take it you haven't been following the battlefield situation closely? Not that I would blame you, it's grim and depressing.

I think the Russians have an artillery advantage of something like 7-8 to 1 over the Ukrainians. They've had months worth of time to build extensive defensive lines in depth with millions of mines laid. They have clear aerial superiority. Those Western tanks are useful for exploiting breakthroughs - but without a combined arms advantage (land/air) there is no gains for these tanks to make. Sending them in piecemeal is suicidal. Ukraine learnt this lesson early on in the Summer offensive.

 

VorZakone

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That helped who and how? Probably poor Africans?
I don't have a particular answer for that. Ukrainians have said that Wagner was a tougher opponent than Russian regular forces. And now Wagner has been pretty much disbanded by Putin.
 

tomaldinho1

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The recent mainstream media seem to be preparing people for negative Ukraine stories, almost like we might hear about support ending/greatly diminishing soon. There comes a time NATO has to wake up and flex it's muscles a bit, Russia is vastly increasing it's army size, it's very obvious they won't stop and Ukraine will not be the last country they target.
 

Simbo

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The recent mainstream media seem to be preparing people for negative Ukraine stories, almost like we might hear about support ending/greatly diminishing soon. There comes a time NATO has to wake up and flex it's muscles a bit, Russia is vastly increasing it's army size, it's very obvious they won't stop and Ukraine will not be the last country they target.
Just Russians splashing their cash imo, I'm sure its quite easy for them to get a story published. In terms of western support, the narrative has shifted back in Ukraine's favour since that new house speaker fellow, Johnson, has had a change of tune. Expecting that $100bil package to be approved at some point.
 

VorZakone

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UK MoD says estimated 70K Russians dead. Total casualties between 290K and 350K.

 

VorZakone

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Big new WaPo article out...


Miscalculations, divisions marked offensive planning by U.S., Ukraine

  • Ukrainian, U.S. and British military officers held eight major tabletop war games to build a campaign plan. But Washington miscalculated the extent to which Ukraine’s forces could be transformed into a Western-style fighting force in a short period — especially without giving Kyiv air power integral to modern militaries.
  • The United States advocated a focused assault along that southern axis, but Ukraine’s leadership believed its forces had to attack at three distinct points along the 600-mile front, southward toward both Melitopol and Berdyansk on the Sea of Azov and east toward the embattled city of Bakhmut.
  • Many in Ukraine and the West underestimated Russia’s ability to rebound from battlefield disasters and exploit its perennial strengths: manpower, mines and a willingness to sacrifice lives on a scale that few other countries can countenance.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/04/ukraine-counteroffensive-us-planning-russia-war/
 
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That_Bloke

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I swaer to God that Ukrainian generals must be incompetent as feck when they don't find a way to take better advantage of the situation and thus choose to get bogged down in a war of attrition. Everyone and the dog know that Russia is never beaten in a war of attrition. It is often beaten through a series of morale-crushing defeats that make the Russians lose hope for any better outcome.
You're day dreaming if yo think that Ukraine has the means to inflict a decisive military defeat on Russia.
 
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Morty_

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Just Russians splashing their cash imo, I'm sure its quite easy for them to get a story published. In terms of western support, the narrative has shifted back in Ukraine's favour since that new house speaker fellow, Johnson, has had a change of tune. Expecting that $100bil package to be approved at some point.
Actions speaks louder than word, Mike can say he support Ukraine as much as he want, doesn't mean anything.

I expect nothing major to pass.
 

VorZakone

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Big new WaPo article out...


Miscalculations, divisions marked offensive planning by U.S., Ukraine


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/04/ukraine-counteroffensive-us-planning-russia-war/
On the Bakhmut debate...

Ukrainian officials argued that they needed to sustain a robust fight in the Bakhmut area because otherwise Russia would try to reoccupy parts of the Kharkiv region and advance in Donetsk — a key objective for Putin, who wants to seize that whole region.

“We told [the Americans], ‘If you assumed the seats of our generals, you’d see that if we don’t make Bakhmut a point of contention, [the Russians] would,’” one senior Ukrainian official said. “We can’t let that happen.”
 

RedDevilQuebecois

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You're day dreaming if yo think that Ukraine has the means to inflict a decisive military defeat on Russia.
That is what Russia said about Japan before Mukden in that cold winter of early 1905. I hope you read deep enough about that battle because, unlike what popular views of that war might be, the Japanese army at that particular time was exhausted, starved, outnumbered, outgunned and severely depleted because of the heavy casualties taken during the (finally successful) siege of Port-Arthur. Nevertheless, the Japanese generals knew that they had to attack and to win decisively in a very narrow window of opportunity as the alternative would have meant a guaranteed defeat should the Russian army have received reinforcements from Western Russia. So the Japanese went all in, outflanked and encircled the main Russian force, forced a massive Russian retreat and then finished off the remnants inside the pocket just west of Mukden, all before that window of opportunity closed.

Big new WaPo article out...


Miscalculations, divisions marked offensive planning by U.S., Ukraine


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/04/ukraine-counteroffensive-us-planning-russia-war/
Regardless of how tactics and technology have evolved since 1905, the old Swedish proverb that says "attack is the best defense" still holds its meaning in the art of war when the window of opportunity is there. After reading that two-part article in the Washington Post, I personally feel that many Ukrainian generals have been far too cautious and thus missed their window completely, which is a big reason why the counteroffensive failed. The other reason is the massive waste of valuable UA resources, namely seasoned soldiers while defending Bakhmut, for which the article seems to indicate it was due to pressure from Zelensky's office.

Someone someday will have to go all in and then force a breakthrough to finish this war, just like the Japanese of the previous century did. I only hope the Ukrainian generals will not mess around if such an opportunity arises.
 
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MTF

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Big new WaPo article out...


Miscalculations, divisions marked offensive planning by U.S., Ukraine


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/04/ukraine-counteroffensive-us-planning-russia-war/
Just finished the 1st part about the planning, and recalled that we were talking about this aspect of the timing in this thread back in June. As @RedDevilQuebecois points out, timing is entirely relative in these affairs. I say this as someone who is generally too cautious and wants to be too prepared, but I'd make a shit general as a result.

There seems to be no point in trying to throw more men and equipment against the minefields and trenches that the russians have built up, until there is equipment and/or doctrine that negates those advantages somehow. That or achieving some other form of strategic surprise.
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

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Maybe it's just the ever increasing frustration of the situation building up, but i've more and more feel that a limited nato intervention early in the war could have decided it, and was worth the risk. Putin doesn't seem to have reached the levels of insanity yet to involve nukes, but the only thing he and his inner-circle respects is strength. A systematic aerial campaign against russian army, alongside back-channel and public reassurance it would only stop when the army withdraws from Ukraine. It would have set a better stage for internal revolt at the governmental/military level too.

It's all just so absurd and cynical to me. This idea that nato at its foundation is a military alliance to protect the democratic parts of Europe that want in, from USSR (and RF as its successor) possible expansionism. So, theoretically if Baltics or Poland are attacked instead of Ukraine, we're supposed to see direct military conflict sufficient to repel this, regardless of risks of nuclear escalation; we assume there has always been that will there from USA/UK/France etc. But the country next door that is also fully a part of Europe and trying to consolidate an emerging democracy, but doesn't yet meet all the criteria to sign up to your club yet gets attacked? They're not on the right pieces of paper, but they're still "on our side" so we'll exploit the situation by cynically half-arsing the entire issue.

Removed from the obligation to fulfill a signed treaty, the moral core of the existing alliance is revealed to be very shaky, and we're presented by the surreal realpolitik situation that one European democracy is worthy of possible nuclear war to protect it, yet the one right next door to it isn't.
 

That_Bloke

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That is what Russia said about Japan before Mukden in that cold winter of early 1905. I hope you read deep enough about that battle because, unlike what popular views of that war might be, the Japanese army at that particular time was exhausted, starved, outnumbered, outgunned and severely depleted because of the heavy casualties taken during the (finally successful) siege of Port-Arthur. Nevertheless, the Japanese generals knew that they had to attack and to win decisively in a very narrow window of opportunity as the alternative would have meant a guaranteed defeat should the Russian army have received reinforcements from Western Russia. So the Japanese went all in, outflanked and encircled the main Russian force, forced a massive Russian retreat and then finished off the remnants inside the pocket justwest of Mukden, all before that window of opportunity closed.



Regardless of how tactics and technology have evolved since 1905, the old Swedish proverb that says "attack is the best defense" still holds its meaning in the art of war when the window of opportunity is there. After reading that two-part article in the Washington Post, I personally feel that many Ukrainian generals have been far too cautious and thus missed their window completely, which is a big reason why the counteroffensive failed. The other reason is the massive waste of valuable UA resources, namely seasoned soldiers while defending Bakhmut, for which the article seems to indicate it was due to pressure from Zelensky's office.

Someone someday will have to go all in and then force a breakthrough to finish this war, just like the Japanese of the previous century did. I only hope the Ukrainian generals will not mess around if such an opportunity arises.
The comparison seems to be popular on the internet, but I see where you're coming from. Just with a small difference: the Japanese army wasn't on life support and depending on the whims of the nations providing, well all the military equipment, so it could act as it saw fit, when it saw fit. You forget that Japan was wiping the floor with Russia since the war began and the two armies were fairly even in terms of numbers and material, which is absolutely not the case here. The Japanese were also better equipped than the Russians and their high command levels above the Tsar's. You can nitpick one battle were the Japanese were in a real pinch and only had their superior tactics and better trained, fanatical soldiers to bail them out, but the fact is that they absolutely mauled the Russians left, right, and center on land as well as at sea, from the beginning to the end of the war. Can't see the same situation in Ukraine.

Back to 2023, the Russian lines of defense are so deeply layered, that there was no chance of breaking through without considerable air and armored support and a massive amount of bodies. The spring counter-offensive reminds me more of Operation Citadel rather than the Battle of Mukden in the sense that the Russians, alongside basically the whole world, knew months in advance what was going to happen and had all the time in the world to prepare their defenses. Many military experts saw the failure coming a mile off, given that the Ukrainians simply didn't have enough tanks, airplanes, soldiers, and not even the element of surprise, to achieve their objectives.

After their initial heavy blunders, and there were many, the Russians decided to shorten the front, go defensive, hang onto what they already had, and let the Ukrainians put their best forces through the meat grinder, since attrition heavily favours Russia. Unless NATO and the US go all in, which I highly doubt, it will end only one way.
 
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