Santa Barbara shooting

[Pogue Mahone]

Also, feminists as bad as misogynists?

I don't even know where to start with that.

It's getting dangerously close to moaning about racism against white people but I think the point was more about the most extreme feminists apparently hating men just as much as misogynists are supposed to hate women. Which is definitely the impression I get every time I make the mistake of allowing my self get sucked into some pointless twitter row about gender politics. So they're not "as bad" in terms of real world outcomes but they're definitely just as annoying when it comes to shouting down anyone who has a slightly different opinion to theirs.

As I said a few posts up, it's very naive to draw assumptions from online squabbles about society in general. It's the most vocal and extreme opinions that take up the most bandwidth. The silent majority are far more reasonable, on both sides of the debate. And it's that same majority who actually populate the real world away from those computer screens.

 

[Bury Red]

It's getting dangerously close to moaning about racism against white people but I think the point was more about the most extreme feminists apparently hating men just as much as misogynists are supposed to hate women. Which is definitely the impression I get every time I make the mistake of allowing my self get sucked into some pointless twitter row about gender politics. So they're not "as bad" in terms of real world outcomes but they're definitely just as annoying when it comes to shouting down anyone who has a slightly different opinion to theirs.

As I said a few posts up, it's very naive to draw assumptions from online squabbles about society in general. It's the most vocal and extreme opinions that take up the most bandwidth. The silent majority are far more reasonable, on both sides of the debate. And it's that same majority who actually populate the real world away from those computer screens.

Too much emphasis is always put on the ists in any argument. As you grow older hopefully the ists drop off, I'd consider myself a social human these days thankfully and still naively hope that when I get back to the UK I'll find that my old man and sister are just races nowadays

 

[dumbo]

We mock when violence is blamed on Schwarzenegger gun movies but are supposed to sit up and applaud when misogynist elements of society are held largely responsible for similar violent events. It just looks opportunist to exploit these deaths to push a particular agenda.

Sure a culture of misogyny likely feed into behaviours and events, just as the Terminator and Power Rangers do but I think neurological chemistry and brain psychology maybe slightly better starting points to look at, rather than 2 live crew.

Breivik was very vocal on Islam and Socialism as motivations for his crimes. I think being an unhinged individual plays a much larger role in these types of shootings than the incoherent rambling of the perpetrators.

 

[naturalized]

I've stayed out of this thread until now because I wanted to gather my thoughts. I am so beyond fed up with the gun lobby in this country. I thought that things might actually change after Sandy Hook. I thought that when dozens of little 5 and 6 year olds were killed in their school, something might change. I thought that for all the bluster about video games and mental health systems, the gun lobby would finally look inward and realize that something needs to change. But they didn't. They doubled down. Gun sales went up. The NRA sent out emails about Obama trying to take everyone's guns and they went up some more. Obama didn't try to take anyone's guns. He knows the battle is lost. He didn't even try and still more guns were bought than ever before. Now we have new laws passed every year expanding places where people can carry guns. Churches, bars, public transportation. Whatever! More guns, for everyone, wherever the feck they want. The gun lobby won. They will always win. And every few months we will have another horrible mass shooting and every year we have another 30,000 gun deaths in this country. And we just have to chalk it up to the price of doing business. Because when it comes down to it, some people care more about owning guns than about dead children. I know responsible gun owners who like to hunt. I know responsible gun owners who go to a gun range on the weekend and like to feel the power. I know responsible gun owners who live in bad neighborhoods and want to protect their families. I understand all the arguments. I sympathize with them. But at some point, we have to reevaluate. We have to ask, is this worth it? Is never being able to feel safe worth it? Is a routine school shooting worth it? Reasonable people ask this. Reasonable gun owners ask this. But not the gun lobby. The answer is always more guns. If crime is low, it is because there are so many guns. If crime is high, it is because we need more guns. And not only more guns. More guns for absolutely anyone who wants it. Background checks? They oppose it. Waiting period? They oppose it. Restricting on types of guns? They oppose it. And they've won. They will always win. Nothing will ever fecking happen to change this. Dozens of children were gunned down in their school, a place they should feel safe and where they make friends and dream about the future. Polls showed widespread support for changes to gun laws. But nothing was done. The gun lobby wins and children die. It will never ever change.

This is a fecking superb post. Well said.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We mock when violence is blamed on Schwarzenegger gun movies but are supposed to sit up and applaud when misogynist elements of society are held largely responsible for similar violent events. It just looks opportunist to exploit these deaths to push a particular agenda.

Sure a culture of misogyny likely feed into behaviours and events, just as the Terminator and Power Rangers do but I think neurological chemistry and brain psychology maybe slightly better starting points to look at, rather than 2 live crew.

Breivik was very vocal on Islam and Socialism as motivations for his crimes. I think being an unhinged individual plays a much larger role in these types of shootings than the incoherent rambling of the perpetrators.

Good point, well made.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

If you have read his manifesto then you will learn that he despised everyone that made him feel inadequate, that included men and women, his mother, his father, he even considered killing his own toddler brother due to being jealous of his superior social skills FFS! He refers to one male associate as being an 'insolent little worm' simply for talking about his success with women.

The guy killed four men and two women FFS. The first three that he killed were absolutely premeditated and were all male.
He felt inadequate because of his inability to connect with the social world. His Aspergers would have played a part in that. That he was a sociopathic narcissist who became filled with murderous rage over trivial things and perceived slights created a powder keg.

Rodger hated the world because it rejected him when he believed it is was beneath him. He couldn't handle that paradox and it ate away at him. The rejection from women cut the deepest because, well it does for any man. Part of the manifestation of his psychological problems was misogynistic but, in my opinion, misogyny cannot be attributed as the cause of this tragedy.

 

[sullydnl]

We mock when violence is blamed on Schwarzenegger gun movies but are supposed to sit up and applaud when misogynist elements of society are held largely responsible for similar violent events. It just looks opportunist to exploit these deaths to push a particular agenda.

Sure a culture of misogyny likely feed into behaviours and events, just as the Terminator and Power Rangers do but I think neurological chemistry and brain psychology maybe slightly better starting points to look at, rather than 2 live crew.

Breivik was very vocal on Islam and Socialism as motivations for his crimes. I think being an unhinged individual plays a much larger role in these types of shootings than the incoherent rambling of the perpetrators.

I think a culture of misogyny is definitely far more corrosive and damaging than violence in TV/movies/video games.

Agree generally though, a lot of things might feed into an incident like this but ultimately it's down to the individual. Blaming one specific negative aspect of society is a bit simplistic.

The guy killed four men and two women FFS. The first three that he killed were absolutely premeditated and were all male.

To be fair, that's a relatively small sample of his intended victims. Once you remove victims he knew personally and might have had deeper issues with (flatmates and family) the rest would almost certainly have been mostly women, I think.

I don't really buy that misogyny was the route cause but I think you'd have to say that it was a) a factor and b) how his murderous rage would most likely have manifested itself if he had been allowed to continue killing spree.

 

[Man of Leisure]

If you have read his manifesto then you will learn that he despised everyone that made him feel inadequate, that included men and women, his mother, his father, he even considered killing his own toddler brother due to being jealous of his superior social skills FFS! He refers to one male associate as being an 'insolent little worm' simply for talking about his success with women.

The guy killed four men and two women FFS. The first three that he killed were absolutely premeditated and were all male.
He felt inadequate because of his inability to connect with the social world. His Aspergers would have played a part in that. That he was a sociopathic narcissist who became filled with murderous rage over trivial things and perceived slights created a powder keg.

Rodger hated the world because it rejected him when he believed it is was beneath him. He couldn't handle that paradox and it ate away at him. The rejection from women cut the deepest because, well it does for any man. Part of the manifestation of his psychological problems was misogynistic but, in my opinion, misogyny cannot be attributed as the cause of this tragedy.

This is what I took away from his manifesto as well.

 

[An Irish Red]

I am not pushing an agenda here. I am merely trying to get people to recognise that misogyny played a part here. I may be wrong that misogyny was the root cause, but was certainly one of the causes, and certainly played a large part in this crime, and was not merely some peripheral contributor, akin to violent video games and moves, as some people are suggesting.

It played a part of course but, after reading his manifesto, it seems to me that his hatred of women was more of a consequence of his narcissism than a deep rooted inevitability. Like all narcissists his personal self worth was dependent on his status, how he was perceived and how many people idolised and looked up to him. Women were merely trophies to him. He didn't want to be with them for intimacy in the way a normal man would; he wanted to be seen with them and have others envy him as a result. He was the 'best' man around, with the best clothes and best car and he wanted everyone else to see a visual representation of his superiority walking alongside him arm by arm. He wanted his roommates to know that it was him and not them that had girls over. He wanted his friend Addison to know that it was he who was invited to parties and swarmed by girls, not him. His entire self-worth was dependent on appearing more successful than others

When his self-created bubble of superiority is challenged (by 'lesser' males being successful where he is not) he responds with what is called narcissistic rage. He describes physically seething with anger when he saw a beautiful women sitting with her boyfriend and not him, typically focusing on the superficial by pointing out how much more expensive his clothes were than the other man. He assumes that other people share his envy in these circumstances; that they are also aware of the emotional turmoil his narcissistic tendencies cause when faced with these situations. He assumes people that are successful with women are taunting him. They are slighting him and they are fully aware of it. It's an insult etc etc.

There is nothing more upsetting for a narcissist than being surrounded by people that don't accept their own self-affirmed superiority.

Also, they are very shallow emotionally. They only have interest in what they can get from other people. If they don't have high status or provide some sort of tangible benefit than they are of no use. They are inferior and pointless. Worthless. Elliot Rodgers also talks about being lonely and not having friends yet there are multiple people that he got along with that he dismissed the possibility of being friends with because they were not popular enough and/or didn't idolise him in the way that he wanted. He couldn't use them. It's telling that the only person he had any sort of affinity with was his little brother who idolised him and credited him with saving his life.

Anyway, I'm rambling here (I could do this all day so I'm stopping) but the point is; narcissists feed off people. Their entire self-worth is dependent on others and how they are seen. Their inflated, grandiose self-appraisal must be accepted by all or it is a personal slight. They have contempt for those who refuse to feed their ego. Elliot Rodgers was an absolute textbook narcissist to the extent that his manifesto was almost like a parody. The fact that he had aspergers and social anxiety issues on top of that meant that he wasn't able to function like most narcissists do; he couldn't make himself the centre of attention because his anxiety wouldn't let him. He couldn't gain a wide social group or become successful socially because he lacked the social skills to do so. That is what made him a ticking time-bomb in my opinion.

 

[SteveJ]

Yep, good post AIR.

 

[Bross]

Reading his manifesto I dont even think Rodger identified with those misogynist groups. His main issue seems to be lack of status, and he feels that the reason for his status was his failure to get women. But his main goal wasnt to get women for sex, that was just a means of gaining status. This is seen by his insane fantasy as divine ruler. He didnt want a harem of women or women to be his sex slaves, he wanted them all killed except for a select few kept for breeding. He wanted to destroy the entire concept of sex and its importance in society. Even those relatively fringe misogynist online groups still have an ultimate goal of aquiring women for sex. They dont respect women, but they dont want to kill them.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

@Eboue Nice post and I agree with you, definitely.

But it makes me curious, do you think changing the gun laws would've made much of a difference in this particular case? Because this guy seemed like an intelligent man who was very well prepared, and obsessed with well... revenge and annihilation. If I were to say that he probably would have used a flame thrower if guns weren't available, and that I think the end result would've been the same, would that be unfair?

Which doesn't mean that in a lot of cases forms of Gun Control could have and will save(d) lives, and I really hope something will change regarding this subject in the future.

For example: this is just an oldskool Super Soaker, probably filled with gasoline, no way to prevent or control this if someone wants to use it on people or inside:

If you want to see the full video of that home made flame thrower:

http://youtu.be/DrFs7NIvloI

 

[dumbo]

I think a culture of misogyny is definitely far more corrosive and damaging than violence in TV/movies/video games.


To be fair, that's a relatively small sample of his intended victims. Once you remove victims he knew personally and might have had deeper issues with (flatmates and family) the rest would almost certainly have been mostly women, I think.

I don't really buy that misogyny was the route cause but I think you'd have to say that it was a) a factor and b) how his murderous rage would most likely have manifested itself if he had been allowed to continue killing spree.

I'd agree and I would think that misogynist behaviour is far more replicable than gun violence and should thus be taken more seriously.

I still suspect that his hate for women was more likely an outlet for his violence (like other spurious motivations in similar cases) rather than any sort of cause. But who really knows? the mind is a strange thing. I haven't read his 'manifesto' (although I'm sure it's fascinating) but I doubt that would reveal the great secret for his actions either.

 

[Arruda]

While I agree that things need to change and fast, this particular case isn't necessarily a mass shooting. He killed most of his victims with a knife and another with his car. He shot two people.

Still, it's depressing that an other brutal mess like this is needed to open debate again, and in two weeks it'll be forgotten until the next one.

It's not indeed a mass shooting, but I can't imagine these people doing this without the "safety" of firearms by their side. It's probably easier to knife someone when you've got a weapon on your side should things go wrong. It's also probably easier to go on a car rampage when you have a gun to shoot yourself in the head when you know you're about to be caught, etc... They open the road to power trips.

Mere personal speculation of course.

 

[Bross]

It's not indeed a mass shooting, but I can't imagine these people doing this without the "safety" of firearms by their side. It's probably easier to knife someone when you've got a weapon on your side should things go wrong. It's also probably easier to go on a car rampage when you have a gun to shoot yourself in the head when you know you're about to be caught, etc... They opens the road to power trips.

Mere personal speculation of course.

Very good point. Its very evident that the majority of these people dont want to face the consequences, and a gun gives them a very easy out. Its hard to plan both a mass murder and a very "safe" suicide option without a gun.

Still, the mass murders are a drop in the ocean compared to the deaths from regular, day to day gun crime in the US.

 

[Will Absolute]

Excellent post, AIR.

 

[gamma1]

I've stayed out of this thread until now because I wanted to gather my thoughts. I am so beyond fed up with the gun lobby in this country. I thought that things might actually change after Sandy Hook. I thought that when dozens of little 5 and 6 year olds were killed in their school, something might change. I thought that for all the bluster about video games and mental health systems, the gun lobby would finally look inward and realize that something needs to change. But they didn't. They doubled down. Gun sales went up. Background checks? They oppose it. Waiting period? They oppose it. Restricting on types of guns? They oppose it. And they've won. They will always win. Nothing will ever fecking happen to change this. Dozens of children were gunned down in their school, a place they should feel safe and where they make friends and dream about the future. Polls showed widespread support for changes to gun laws. But nothing was done. The gun lobby wins and children die. It will never ever change.

I fully agree with your sentiments Eboue. It's such an infuriating situation we find ourselves in where even the death of young kids at an elementary school doesn't generate a sense of ultimate responsibility in politicians elected to protect the safety of their most vulnerable constituents, let alone make any sizable dents in the approach taken by the gun lobby. The recent awful event at the Santa Barbara campus is a sad representation of what has become a common theme where reactions to a tragedy caused by insignificant restrictions on access to guns will have no effect in preventing future shootings. I think this emotional interview below with the father of a slain victim captures the frustration that most of us feel about the current appalling state of gun violence and the disturbing frequency with which mass murder shootings are occurring as a result of the failure by inept politicians to enact sensible gun control measures.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

We mock when violence is blamed on Schwarzenegger gun movies but are supposed to sit up and applaud when misogynist elements of society are held largely responsible for similar violent events. It just looks opportunist to exploit these deaths to push a particular agenda.

Sure a culture of misogyny likely feed into behaviours and events, just as the Terminator and Power Rangers do but I think neurological chemistry and brain psychology maybe slightly better starting points to look at, rather than 2 live crew.

Breivik was very vocal on Islam and Socialism as motivations for his crimes. I think being an unhinged individual plays a much larger role in these types of shootings than the incoherent rambling of the perpetrators.

The dude didn't see women as people. Feck, he didn't even see women as actually existing. To him, they were the entities that were there to give him the "gift" of sex. If that isn't misogyny then I don't know what is.

There's obviously many layers of reasons behind this person's (refuse to use the bastard's name), but they can only really be addressed one at a time.

 

[dumbo]

The dude didn't see women as people. Feck, he didn't even see women as actually existing. To him, they were the entities that were there to give him the "gift" of sex. If that isn't misogyny then I don't know what is.

Of course it is.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Of course it is.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I wasn't implying that you were saying the opposite. Just quoted your comment because it was related to what I was thinking.

 

[dumbo]

Ok, my mistake.

 

[DFreshKing]

Misandrists.

Cheeky bitches think they can have their own word!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It defintiely was a weird video. His tendancy to use 'slaughter and annihilation' than normal 'kill everyone' and the intersperead weird villany laugh I think points to total delusion and belief that he is doing the world a favour by eliminating those he thought were 'not worthy'.

This article I thought had a different spin than the usual: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...nition-of-preventable-six-people-died-anyway/

The killer had a supporting family, had received treatment for his mental disorders, the state has a more stringent gun control laws, police knew abut the kid...etc. Everything that people would have pointed as a missing cause had they not been there. But despite presence of all, this happened.

The other thing that I read was more important, preception and media. There is a element of contagiousness to these killings, it seems. When someone reads about an incident, if he is suffering from same symptoms, it triggers him to take a similar action. The media rather than publicizing the incidents should be more socially aware and put a spin that the intention of heroism or vigilantism never happens and even after death, they only trigger pity rather than being famous/infamous. Once the media ingrans the thought that these killings do not stroke the narcissist ego's, we may see a reduction in such cases.

For me Gun Control is just the tool and not the cause. Yes, the NRA has taken it to ridiculous levels and needs to be stopped, but it may contain the effect but not prevent the cause. You can takw away the guns, but maybe a question of time till they find a alternate way to vent their anger.

 

[barros]

After all did the guy killed 6 or 9 people? I read somewhere they found 3 people dead inside the spartment.

 

[Hojoon]

After all did the guy killed 6 or 9 people? I read somewhere they found 3 people dead inside the spartment.

He killed 6. 3 roommates (George Chen, Chen Yuan Hong, and Weihan Wang) and 3 people outside (Katie Cooper, Veronika Weiss, and Christopher Michael-Martinez).

 

[Wittmann45]

The other thing that I read was more important, preception and media. There is a element of contagiousness to these killings, it seems. When someone reads about an incident, if he is suffering from same symptoms, it triggers him to take a similar action. The media rather than publicizing the incidents should be more socially aware and put a spin that the intention of heroism or vigilantism never happens and even after death, they only trigger pity rather than being famous/infamous. Once the media ingrans the thought that these killings do not stroke the narcissist ego's, we may see a reduction in such cases

 

[cesc's_mullet]

I guess if everyone had access to guns this wouldn't have happened... Oh wait.

 

[Zak Smith]

I would like to know how this little dweeb managed to stab three people to death. I assume with him sharing accommodation you'd be on your guard all the time

 

[gormless]

http://www.youtube.com/user/valtharion

He had an alternate youtube account if people are interested. Check the comments

 

[Shark]

http://www.youtube.com/user/valtharion

He had an alternate youtube account if people are interested. Check the comments

The guy was just full of pure hatred and bitterness. Disgusting individual.

 

[Scrumpet]

http://www.youtube.com/user/valtharion

He had an alternate youtube account if people are interested. Check the comments

...unless you want to avoid Game of Thrones spoilers.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The guy was just full of pure hatred and bitterness. Disgusting individual.

True. Although you'd find comments as repellant as those under almost every video on youtube.

Spending an hour reading youtube comments has got to the most time effective way of losing all faith in humanity...

 

[Shark]

True. Although you'd find comments as repellant as those under almost every video on youtube.

Spending an hour reading youtube comments has got to the most time effective way of losing all faith in humanity...

Very true too. There's a post he made on a video of a 5 day old baby that caught my eye though, calling him/her a monstrosity and other names.

 

[Zak Smith]

"Why blame him for fecking his sister? If your sister was Cersei you would do the same."

People need to stop bullying, but not only that. People also need to start accepting everyone. People need to befriend those lonely shy individuals instead of shun them, to make them feel like they belong. Social classes are evil, and lead to tragedies such as this. Humanity needs to unite as equals.

LOL that's the most ridiculous post on youtube. I bet you're a black person who's butt hurt because you look like a gorilla. All black people look like gorillas. Blacks and gorillas are both black all over, have ugly squashed in faces, flat noses, primitive bulging eyes, drooping mouth, and wild unruly behaviour.

Wow.. I am so fecking jealous of those damn dogs. They get to LICK her. I want to kill those dogs.

 

[Donaldo]

"Why blame him for fecking his sister? If your sister was Cersei you would do the same."

People need to stop bullying, but not only that. People also need to start accepting everyone. People need to befriend those lonely shy individuals instead of shun them, to make them feel like they belong. Social classes are evil, and lead to tragedies such as this. Humanity needs to unite as equals.

LOL that's the most ridiculous post on youtube. I bet you're a black person who's butt hurt because you look like a gorilla. All black people look like gorillas. Blacks and gorillas are both black all over, have ugly squashed in faces, flat noses, primitive bulging eyes, drooping mouth, and wild unruly behaviour.

Wow.. I am so fecking jealous of those damn dogs. They get to LICK her. I want to kill those dogs.

What in the name of feck?

 

[ZDwyr]

Sorry if this has been explained or answered before but I have a question. He has an obsession with sex, of losing his virginity and stuff. Why did he not just sleep with a prostitute or something? He could clearly afford one. The whole thing interests me and I just wonder why he never did that. Maybe the lack of intimacy but I'm not sure. If anyone has any ideas I'd like to hear them.

 

[gormless]

Sorry if this has been explained or answered before but I have a question. He has an obsession with sex, of losing his virginity and stuff. Why did he not just sleep with a prostitute or something? He could clearly afford one. The whole thing interests me and I just wonder why he never did that. Maybe the lack of intimacy but I'm not sure. If anyone has any ideas I'd like to hear them.

He seemed to care about girls wanting him. He viewed himself as perfect. Surely it would be more emasculating for him to have to actually pay for sex

 

[Maagge]

Sorry if this has been explained or answered before but I have a question. He has an obsession with sex, of losing his virginity and stuff. Why did he not just sleep with a prostitute or something? He could clearly afford one. The whole thing interests me and I just wonder why he never did that. Maybe the lack of intimacy but I'm not sure. If anyone has any ideas I'd like to hear them.

I think it was more to do with social standing, which in his eyes correlated with having sex. Sleeping with a prostitute wouldn't be considered a good thing social status wise.

 

[sullydnl]

Sorry if this has been explained or answered before but I have a question. He has an obsession with sex, of losing his virginity and stuff. Why did he not just sleep with a prostitute or something? He could clearly afford one. The whole thing interests me and I just wonder why he never did that. Maybe the lack of intimacy but I'm not sure. If anyone has any ideas I'd like to hear them.

Yeah, I wondered about that too. Maybe getting with girls was more a status thing with him, like it would prove he was the Alpha male he really wanted everyone to think we was. Having to pay for it would diminish that somewhat.

 

[ZDwyr]

He seemed to care about girls wanting him. He viewed himself as perfect. Surely it would be more emasculating for him to have to actually pay for sex

Yeah I suppose that makes sense.

I think it was more to do with social standing, which in his eyes correlated with having sex. Sleeping with a prostitute wouldn't be considered a good thing social status wise.

Yeah, I see what you mean.