Scholes vs Lampard vs Gerrard

[Grylte]

So El Pasillo is Eloqunt's new account?

 

[Righteous Steps]

What's the relevance?

Since you asked Robson>Souness>Hoddle.

Because if we're going on technical ability Hoddle>

If we're going on trophies accolades and dominating at a European and domestic level Souness>

Which leaves Robson, theres obviously something else I'm missing that makes you rate him as the best of the three, in this comparison Gerrard is more suited to Robson.

 

[arthurka]

But why are you comparing Keane to Scholes in the first place? Scholes was in the team to do the things Keane couldn't and vice-versa. If we're talking 'saving your life' and I ask you who you would pick between the two of them to: hit a 60yard crossfield ball; ghost into the box undetected and convert a chance; shoot and score from long distance etc. who would you choose?

There's no need to reduce one to big up the other - they were a pairing for a reason.

This.. Scholes was just exceptional no midfielder I have seen since has had anything on him.. Keane had something no one has had since and so on it goes.. The best pairing of two players in the midfield goes to Keane and Scholes but that trio with Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta is the best cm I have ever seen.. Gerrard and Lampard wouldnt get close to being in these groups..

 

[Righteous Steps]

Nothing misinformed about my post. When Veron arrived, Ferguson wanted to play a 3 man midfield in Europe with Scholes, Keane and Veron. Unfortunately it did not work out that way. Scholes played 51 games in 01-02, compare that to Verons 40 games. Hardly a replacement.

Gerrard was terrible against Milan in 05, with the exception of a 10 minute spell, to say he did wellagainst Pirlo Gattuso and Seedorf is deluded . It also does not change the fact that Rafa pushed him from centre mid to attacking midfield because his midfield was getting over run due to lack of Gerrards discpline.

Also the big reason why Ferguson dropped Scholes against Juventus in 1999 was because both Keane and Scholes were a yellow card away from missing the final. He did not want to risk losing both by playing both in the semi final if United got the final, so he dropped the one who was most likely going to get a yellow. Unfortunately he lost both for the final.

In 14, Gerrard was a box to box midfielder. What cost Liverpool the title that season, the defence, Gerrard leaving gaping holes behind and leaving the defence vulnerable. Scholes could not tackle, but he was a brilliant reader of the game and could intercept well, english football fans devalue this attribute because it is not a tackle.

He bought Veron so United we're better equipped to go to toe with the big midfield of Europe, around that same time Scholes was playing as a number 10 behind Ruud wasn't he?


Yes you name me a midfield two that could go against that midfield 4 at that time with the other surrounding players being Traore Baros and Dudek as opposed to Evra Ronaldo and van der Saar and I'll shut up, 05 was a tactical mistake from Benitez he played a midfield two against one of the greatest midfield 4s of all time anyone would get overrun, you could put Xavi or Scholes there and the same thing..

When did Xavi for example ever play on a two?

Nope in 13/14 he was a regista a deep lying playmaker and he helped get Liverpool closer to the league than they had actually been when he was playing as a number 10 in 09.

 

[2mufc0]

Because if we're going on technical ability Hoddle>

If we're going on trophies accolades and dominating at a European and domestic level Souness>

Which leaves Robson, theres obviously something else I'm missing that makes you rate him as the best of the three, in this comparison Gerrard is more suited to Robson.

There's more to rating a player than those things you listed, there are many other criteria but you also have to look at the context of each player. I watched Gerrard's whole career and watched many games of Robson, although Gerrard has had his moments overall he's not as good. You can disagree, as these things always come down to personal preference.

 

[Righteous Steps]

There's more to rating a player than those things you listed, there are many other criteria but you also have to look at the context of each player. I watched Gerrard's whole career and watched many games of Robson, although Gerrard has had his moments overall he's not as good. You can disagree, as these things always come down to personal preference.

Such as what?

And what was the context?

 

[2mufc0]

Such as what?

And what was the context?

There are too many to list, but just to get you thinking clubs played for, management, leadership, consistency, era , reputation etc.

 

[JPRouve]

Not really interested in becoming involved in this debate as it's been done to death but I don't remember Scholes being lauded in the mid 2000s/in his peak years anywhere near as much as he is now.

Game controlling midfielders are generally overlooked, just look at individual awards or their fees. Ironically these are the players that move the least because clubs are a lot more reluctant to sell.

 

[Righteous Steps]

There are too many to list, but just to get you thinking clubs played for, management, leadership, consistency, era , reputation etc.

Ok could you expand, whyyou would say Robson was a better player than Hoddle who was technically better, or Souness who was technically on par and one with accolades that Robson can't compare to?

 

[Paxi]

Game controlling midfielders are generally overlooked, just look at individual awards or their fees. Ironically these are the players that move the least because clubs are a lot more reluctant to sell.

Didn't Morrati try to sign Scholes by giving us a blank cheque or something to that effect. Scholes refused to move. He said something like - you'll just have to buy Man Utd.

 

[2mufc0]

Ok could you expand, whyyou would say Robson was a better player than Hoddle who was technically better, or Souness who was technically on par and one with accolades that Robson can't compare to?

Before i delve into this, please can you clarify that you beleive Souness and Hoddle to be better than Robson?

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Over 10 years ago, I took my under 15s team to Spain and France. This was right after the CL final in 2005 when Gerrard was rightfully getting the plaudits. When I spoke to some under 15 coaches over there, I asked which player do you guys look at in England the most and who is your favorite, every single one of them said Scholes. I asked why, they said if you want to teach a footballer about discipline, patience, dictating tempo and controlling the game from the off, Scholes is the player you look at. They said no other midfielder in England has those attributes and in order to succeed on the international stage, you need more than 1 Scholes in your side.

I then went to do a bit research of my own and it is surprising how little this gets mentioned and how little playmakers are appreciated among English football fans. Gerrard was never centre midfielder. His best position was attacking midfielder or playing off the main man. You look at the CL final in 2005 and it shows how the media misled Gerrards attributes. At half time when Gerrard played alongside Alonso, Liverpool got pummeled. Rafa then changed the system, brought on Hamann, played Hamann alongside Alonso. Which pushed Alonso in centre midfield and pushed Gerrard further behind the main striker. This freed up Alonso in order for him to do what he did best and freed up Gerrard in order for him to do what he did best. You then look at Gerrards prime years(04-09), who was the one player there at Liverpool at that time(Alonso). What did Alonso do? Showed discipline, patience, dictating tempo and controlled the game from the off. What happened to Liverpool when Alonso left(2009), they went from challenging for CL places, consistently in the top 3, getting to the late stages of the CL consistently to coming 7th and getting knocked out of the group stages of the CL. Gerrards last minute heroics and game diminished too. This was within a year after Alonso left.

The way Gerrard played was almost parallel to how Rooney played for United. A workaholic on the football pitch and as a number 10. Comparing him to Scholes only happens in English football and it shows how misleading English football can be that comparing a playmaker to a attacking midfielder/number 10 is a norm, when in countries such as spain, france and italy it would be abnormal. It is like comparing Xavi to Mata, 2 different type of players and midfielders, playing different roles and positions being compared, it just would not happen.

Excellent post. Couldn't agree more.

 

[JPRouve]

Didn't Morrati try to sign Scholes by giving us a blank cheque or something to that effect. Scholes refused to move. He said something like - you'll just have to buy Man Utd.

Wasn't it for Giggs?

 

[Paxi]

Wasn't it for Giggs?

Hmm Im not sure. I know Giggs was linked with them during 2001 or so.

 

[Paxi]

December 29th 2003: Fergie can’t believe Scholes doesn’t make the top 20 for the FIFA World Player of the Year awards
“He’s a gifted player and I was reading players from abroad saying they think he’s the best in Europe. Zidane’s said it, Vieira said it, Davids said it, yet he’s not in the first 20 at the awards. He nor Roy Keane were not in the first 20, it’s quite amazing. It’s probably right that he doesn’t have the profile of other players, he doesn’t get the same media attention as say Zidane or Ronaldo, but that’s football and we don’t worry about that. But I find it interesting.”/QUOTE]

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

No, it was Scholes. There were rumours that Scholes' answer to Moratti was that the only way he could play for him was if Moratti bought United.

 

[AllEyezOnMe]

He bought Veron so United we're better equipped to go to toe with the big midfield of Europe, around that same time Scholes was playing as a number 10 behind Ruud wasn't he?


Yes you name me a midfield two that could go against that midfield 4 at that time with the other surrounding players being Traore Baros and Dudek as opposed to Evra Ronaldo and van der Saar and I'll shut up, 05 was a tactical mistake from Benitez he played a midfield two against one of the greatest midfield 4s of all time anyone would get overrun, you could put Xavi or Scholes there and the same thing..

When did Xavi for example ever play on a two?

Nope in 13/14 he was a regista a deep lying playmaker and he helped get Liverpool closer to the league than they had actually been when he was playing as a number 10 in 09.

The only season Scholes played as a number 10 was in the 02/03 season when United lacked numbers up top due to Forlans poor form. In 01/02 Scholes played in centre midfield majority of the time. Veron was bought to play alongside Scholes in europe, not to dislodge him as you suggested earlier. Ferguson played a 4-3-3 formation, with Keane in the holding position and Scholes and Veron just ahead of him. It did not work, so Ferguson scrapped it.

Which midfield could compete against the likes of Seedorf, Pirlo and Gattuso, well Alonso and Hamann did for a short period in the 2nd half. They were a brilliant set of midfielders playing alongside each other, does not change the fact that Rafa did not trust Gerrard in centre midfield. Gerrards prime, Liverpool's known midfield duo were Sissoko/Alonso and Maschearno/Alonso. With Gerrard playing out wide or up top.

In 13/14 I believe you are exaggerating and embellishing Gerrards role. That season was all about Suarez and once again when a key player leaves Liverpool, Gerrard is exposed. Also a deep lying playmaker does not get 13 assists in a season. The other 4 players in the top 5 being Suarez(number 10/striker), Lambert(number 10/striker), Rooney(number 10), Ozil(wide player/number 10) that season. Henderson sat deep and Gerrard was slightly further forward. Gerrard had to be further forward in order to provide the assists and not sat deep being a playmaker as you suggest.

I am not suggesting Gerrard is poor, on his day he was brilliant. But between the 2 if I want a playmaker, I would pick Scholes, if I want a attacking midfielder I would pick Gerrard. You just cannot compare both. If you compare Scholes as a attacking midfielder, well in 02/03 when he played behind Ruud, he went on to score 20 goals, so he was not exactly poor in that area too, Gerrard was just better in that posiiton, but Gerrard was no where near Rooneys level in that position.

 

[Paxi]

Fabregas.

“Paul Scholes has had a fantastic season. He is a very complete, spectacular footballer. He always fights for the ball and tries to lose his marker to help his team-mates – either to defend or to have a shot on goal. For any football player in the Premiership, Scholes is a player you want to emulate. I would happily end my career with the medals that Scholes has. He has six league titles, four FA Cups, one European Cup and one Inter-Continental Cup to his name. I am young and I hope that I will be able to surpass him – but it is not going to be easy.”

April 20th 2008: Eidur Gudjohnsen singles out Scholes ahead of European Cup semi-final against Barcelona
“I’m more an admirer of Paul Scholes than I am of Ronaldo. Ronaldo is a fantastic player, but he has 10 other great players around him every week. Scholes is one of the most complete footballers I’ve ever seen. His one-touch play is phenomenal. Whenever I have played against him, I never felt I could get close to him. Of course players like Ronaldo and Messi can change a game with one bit of skill, but there’s a lot of hysteria about them and the tie will be all about which of us plays better as a team. That is why Scholes and Ryan Giggs are both very influential. When I was in England, I watched them closely and I saw that what they both do for United is phenomenal.”

January 11th 2001: Roberto Mancini reckons new England boss, Sven, has his eye on Scholes
“Of course, he knows all about Beckham, probably more than any other player in England. So the fact that Beckham will be fundamental to his plans for the future is a statement of the obvious. Yet the one player he is really looking forward to working with is Paul Scholes. We have seen him many times in the Champions League with Manchester United and Sven thinks he is an absolutely fantastic player. He has a superb touch, he scores spectacular goals and is a real competitor. Very hard but also quite disciplined.”

May 21st 2011: Guardiola is a Scholes fan
“I admire them. Manchester United are a fantastic rival. Out of everyone at Manchester United, I would pick out Scholes – he is the best midfielder of his generation. I would have loved to have played alongside him. Scholes and Giggs are still great players; they are a point of reference in their team. United are a great team with great players – and they like to play good football.”

Sven knew a thing or two about midfielders, working with Nedved at Lazio and that.

More fake quotes eh?

 

[Paxi]

Wasn't it for Giggs?

July 11th 2000: Inter president confirms £31m offer for Paul Scholes
“Yes it is true. The story is correct. We are very much interested in signing Paul Scholes. Unfortunately for us, it appears Manchester United are not prepared to release Scholes at the moment. It is going to be very hard for us to get him.”

July 12th 2000: Agent Pino Pagliara tells Moratti to give up on Scholes
“I told Moratti Scholes is a “mission impossible” man. It’s more than money with him. He was born just a few blocks away from Old Trafford. It’ s about wearing United’ s colours. United say it will only happen if the board, player and manager all agree.”

That's the official quotes.

 

[United never give up]

But why are you comparing Keane to Scholes in the first place? Scholes was in the team to do the things Keane couldn't and vice-versa. If we're talking 'saving your life' and I ask you who you would pick between the two of them to: hit a 60yard crossfield ball; ghost into the box undetected and convert a chance; shoot and score from long distance etc. who would you choose?

There's no need to reduce one to big up the other - they were a pairing for a reason.

You're correct in saying that a Keane and Scholes comparison isn't necessary, and for that I apologise

I'm just passionate about ensuring that Roy Keane isn't underrated by our fan base, I see many united fans picking all time XI's who completely disregard him in favour of Scholes

In the match "To save your life" I believe Keane has more big -game performances than Scholes, and Scholes has never had a game like Turin '99

Even Gerrard admitted that Keane is the number 1 centre mid in the PL era

 

[giorno]

Wasn't it for Giggs?

Yes

 

[Damien]

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...us-cheek-answer-crystal-palace-fans-questions

Zaha and Loftus-Cheek go for Gerrard

Gerrard, Lampard or Scholes?

Zaha: Do you know how you pay attention to certain players… obviously I know how good Scholes is, but I didn't really watch him, I didn't really see too much of him. Someone asked Toni Kroos the same question and he said Scholes, so I was thinking this guy must be unreal.

Loftus-Cheek: I think most people would say Scholes.

Zaha: Me personally, I would say Gerrard. That's my opinion, just the way he plays, controls the game, technique, the way he strikes the ball. I remember training with England, and he hit the ball with such power, and no run-up. I'd have to run from the halfway line to smash that as hard as he's hit that!

Loftus-Cheek: I think I'm going to say Gerrard, because he could do everything. Obviously Lampard was top at what he did, and what he did was score goals, and no other midfielder can do that like Lamps. But the way Gerrard leads as well, I'd say Gerrard.