my inner pessimist is now saying that we will lose to Spain and maybe even Norway too and end up 2nd in the group
Scotland National Team Discussion
- Thread starter SilentWitness
- Start date
Let's be honest it would be an embarassment if that bunch of England players can't turn over Scotland. That's not to disparage Scotland because the manager has rebuilt them really well and they seem to extract the most out of what they have these days rather than having a limited side that also performs as if they know that they are poor which the weaker Scottish sides seemed to do. They've turned themselves into a decent outfit and for a domestic league that struggles with any kind of depth they're doing great.
But England have some of the best players in the world with the likes of Kane, Bellingham, they have an embarassment of riches in the attack to support those two that are top club players at elite clubs. Very good fullbacks, a solid number 6 that convinced a side to pay 100 million quid. Yes there are weaknesses around the pitch (which international team doesn't have some) but the quality in some areas is significant. It would be nothing short of ineptitude to not turn over Scotland who are scrambling around to field top flight players.
But England have some of the best players in the world with the likes of Kane, Bellingham, they have an embarassment of riches in the attack to support those two that are top club players at elite clubs. Very good fullbacks, a solid number 6 that convinced a side to pay 100 million quid. Yes there are weaknesses around the pitch (which international team doesn't have some) but the quality in some areas is significant. It would be nothing short of ineptitude to not turn over Scotland who are scrambling around to field top flight players.
Are we? That's news to me.
The 24 man squad that faced England and Cyprus, 12 of them do or have played in the EPL. 1 plays in La Liga and 1 plays in Serie A.
I'm not going to lie, England deserved to win. We just didn't turn up. It was evident from kick off that things just weren't right.
It happens. We've won our previous 11 competitive matches. I'd much rather we had an off night in a friendly than a competitive match.
We made England look better that they are.
Take Kane and Bellingham out of that team and they wouldn't create a single change.
Maguire is playing even though he can't get a game for United. Same with Phillips with City. Then there's the 33 year old semi-retired Henderson.
Have you seen Harry Kane's heat maps? With Tottenham it's the center circle to attach. With Bayern Munich it's mainly in the opposition box.
With England, it's everywhere. He drops as deep as defence to receive the ball.
He does that because England don't have a playmaker.
Again, kudos for the win. But let's not go nuts. Don't believe the hype. You scored 2 well worked goals (our defence went awol) and you scored via a mistake by Robertson.
McGinn missed an easy header and Adams hit an air shot instead of stroking the ball home.
We didn't turn up, but we still created a few chances. On any other night they would've went in. Could have easily have been 3-3.
One of the most delusional posts I’ve read.
Delusional like acting like England are a footballing giant?
You've only won one more Scotland.
Trophies won (World Cup, European Championships and Copa America).
Argentina (18)
Uruguay (17)
Brazil (14)
Germany (7)
Italy (6)
France (4)
Spain (4)
Chile (2)
Paraguay (2)
Colombia(1)
Czechoslovakia (1)
Denmark (1)
England (1)
Greece (1)
Netherlands (1)
Peru (1)
Soviet Union (1)
Oh dear.
Awesome.
Anyway. Bye.
Two more points and it's off to Germany. I'm actually glad we got beat on Tuesday as it'll be a reality check to the players and hopefully it's a motivator for the match against Spain.
Then it's off to France for a friendly. Hopefully we actually turn up for that as they really will hammer us if we play like we did on Tuesday.
So yeah, glad it was only against England. Otherwise the scoreline could've been really sore.
I wish you luck, genuinely. You are a proper supporter, I’ll give you that.
Yes, you are. Compared to England you struggle to put forward a full compliment of top flight players which you've just demonstrated. Which inevitably means competition is less.
Take Kane and Bellingham out is a nothing statement. Kane and Bellingham are key players. Take out anyone's best players and they're not the same side. No great revelation there but unfortunately for you they were on the pitch...
I'm not going nuts, who is? It's a friendly match. In fact I was doing the opposite, downplaying it. We should beat Scotland for the reasons I mentioned. Vastly different resources.
I guess he is the play maker then.
Maddison and Foden look capable of standing in as does Stones if we let him move into midfield like City. If we were inclined to "take the handbrake off" we could use Watkins, Toney or at a push Rashford in front of Kane. All of which would walk into the Scotland front line.
Add to that the youth level victories and you can't argue against the talent pool that is coming through.
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We all know football comes cyclical, nation's like Scotland, Wales, Republic and Northern Ireland etc feel the peaks and troughs more than most as they just don't have the same talent pool as the big nations.
It's true we are well coached, and have continuity with the manager and the majority of the group of players, which helps.
But we also actually have some decent talent in our squad now, playing at a relatively decent level, which certainly helps.
In the starting XI there were players from the likes of Arsenal, Liverpool, Man Utd, Brighton, Celtic, Aston Villa, Brentford, Southampton.
Not starting were players from Rangers, Bologna, Verona, Forest, Everton, Southampton, Newcastle.
That's a decent level of team and level on football in general our players by in large are playing at. I might be wrong, but don't think you can say that about the other home nations (discounting England of course). And you can see that in results.
The attacking side we aren't blessed with great options. If we can add the likes of Barnes and Anderson from Newcastle and the likes of Doak come through, we will be a lot better placed. Still, we have a bit of a glaring hole at centre forward. If only we had an Evan Ferguson type player coming through for us.
England are just a different level, so I'm not sure why the other poster is arguing otherwise.
You’re definitely that Scotland supporter who tried to kick the bench in anger but missed and jolted his knee.
That Wales side were really good. The midfield of Allen Ramsey and Lesley with Bale in front were excellent (and Kanu breaking Belgian hearts too), and Ashley Williams and Ben Davies were brilliant in a back three too. This Scottish side has a lot of good players but the one I’d have really wanted are the wingbacks, Taylor was never the same after his injury and Gunter was a solid and loyal servant but never really more than a steady Eddie.
In tournament football a Bale like player makes such a difference. It’s a shame Bellamy’s career didn’t overlap more, he’d have been super useful.
Yeah I was in the away end and it really seemed like your fans were glad you got beat. They all got dressed up in their silly skirts and hats, spent the whole day in the city centre genuinely believing they were going to win the game (especially given you supposedly have such better players than us as per your delusional post here on Tuesday) and and skulked off home with 15 minutes to go after chucking all their loose change and leftover drinks at us because your team was utterly abysmal and got swept aside by an England side playing at about 60% being generous.
Could be a lot worse, they could have been wearing something really embarrassing like an England shirt
Bit uncalled for.
I wouldn't say wearing an England shirt is any more embarrassing than wearing any football shirt to a match as a fully grown adult to be fair but there was certainly a much higher proportion of Scotland fans in football shirts than England fans.
Aye but they were wearing Scottish tops
Totally agree that the home fans throwing missiles all game was completely uncalled for. If you're on about what you've bolded, that literally what they are.
Can't speak for fellow Scotland fans behaving inexcusably. Just a bit fed up hearing and reading the silly skirts nonsense but should be used to hearing it by now I suppose
Not gonna get bogged down in anything on supporter behaviour. Youse won fair and square and were the miles better team. Unfortunately some up here were always gonna engage in the vitriol and unpleasantness.
Oh it was expected, I don't disagree. In general there was actually far less trouble than expected which was a positive. To be honest I read the other posters post on Tuesday travelling up and it got my back up somewhat, same today.Can't speak for fellow Scotland fans behaving inexcusably. Just a bit fed up hearing and reading the silly skirts nonsense but should be used to hearing it by now I suppose
Not gonna get bogged down in anything on supporter behaviour. Youse won fair and square and were the miles better team. Unfortunately some up here were always gonna engage in the vitriol and unpleasantness.
In truth, my more reasoned attitude towards Scotland isn't really aligned with the "Scotland get battered everywhere they go" type England supporters (tedious dreadful song by the way up there with the god awful "Follow England away" song), I'd much prefer the home nations be stronger and get to tournaments regularly. It adds a whole different element playing Scotland, Wales etc in matches at tournaments that actually matter rather than friendlies so for my money I'm glad Scotland are on the way to qualification. Equally, I hope Wales can turn it round and get through too, shame about NI and ROI letting the side down this time round.
Yeah, and even though I was looking forward to the game just anticipated it was always gonna be a fixture where the potential for bother would be quite large. Even for a supposed friendly.
I feel the same about the Home Nations. I'd rather we all got there and have the opportunity to play one another, with massive stakes and it would mean so much more. Yeah, Wales still have a chance and just a shame the Irish teams are doing so poorly. Just hope we get the job done quickly and that would set me at ease.
Glad to see the England supporters in here doing their best to improve cultural relations with their neighbours.
what a ridiculous / tedious post. England were fantastic by the way and in Bellingham may have found the xfactor they’ve been missing - an absolute privilege to watch him in the flesh.
We certainly don’t have better players - I think at best 2 would get in the England squad at a push and probably don’t play. I don’t know of any Scotland fan who thinks we have better players. That must have been a wind up.
Your post though shows a complete lack of awareness in terms of the history of this fixture and a total lack of respect . We are now at England wins 48, Scotland 41 wins. Given we are outnumbered 10 - 1 I’d say that’s a very respectable overall record from a Scottish perspective would you not?
Also puts into perspective the Scotland get battered song but tbh I thought that was great banter.
Scotland are improving as more and more kids are developed through the English system so we will continue to get stronger year on year now which will unfortunately weaken Scottish football further.
Ps - we are better at rugby now so not that bad for such a wee country
Wtf. Talk me through where I've commented on anything at all to do with the history of the fixture, your quality of rugby, or frankly anything at all beyond that one game of football in that post.
But as you've brought it up, I agree that the 41-48 record is of course is very respectable but let's be fair the only reason that is so close because we have stopped playing one another every year. You've haven't beaten England since the turn of the millennium, even that was in a two legged tie that you lost and that was your only win in nearly 40 years. I've just looked and 29 of those 41 wins were before the second world war for goodness sake. If we hadn't stopped playing one another every year in 1989 that would be realistically be much closer to 70 England wins.
Turning back to my post which you seem to think was so ridiculous. It is true that they all spent the day in the city centre believing they were going to win the game (believe me on that one, I spoke to enough Scottish fans in town and it also is true that they all got dressed up. It is true that a lot of the Scottish fans left early and it is also true that a lot of them were throwing things such as coins, cups and bottles into the away throughout the game, there was one guy taken away at half time with his head gushing of blood because he'd been hit by a glass bottle. It is my opinion that England played at about 60% and I it seems universally accepted that Scotland were dreadful (which was a shame because it meant England never needed to raise their game). So I'm not really sure what you're taking issue with to be honest.
If you want tedious how about asking the crowd who invented the lawnmower at half time and then asking them who invented a list of about 650 other things. That was right up there with Man City's old "tallest floodlights in the league" shite.
If you want my more reasoned view on Scotland, rather than a flippant response to that one particular poster who genuinely seemed to think you've got better players than England that you were going to easily win the game; as I said in post #541, believe it or not, I do prefer when the Home Nations quality for tournaments and I'd much rather be facing Scotland in a match that matters rather than a pretty dead friendly in September. So I'm pleased you're on your way to Germany.
England fans, ladies and gentlemen.
KILT | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary
Can't imagine why you deleted the part about us being pelted with missiles all game.
No, that's okay. England are fair game because something. Retaliating by, at worst, calling the kilt a silly skirt is going too far.
Anyway, you're clearly annoyed by the arsehole Scottish supporters so you're taking potshots at our national garments. And, whilst it's understandable that you're angry, you're letting yourself down with what many folk will see as an insult.
Besides, most folk would use the Oxford definition... but pedantry aside it's not about definitions. You know what you were doing when you didn't just call it a "kilt".
You don't like the Scottish. That's fine. I know plenty of Scots who don't like the English. You can trade pathetic insults with one another whilst the rest of us get on with our lives doing more important things like hate the French.
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I thought the Scots and French go together? Like me and being handsome, or English supporters and being hit with projectiles
I don't like the Scottish? That's quite the sweeping take simply because I called the kilt a skirt, which it literally is - you mentioned the Oxford dictionary, which also calls it a skirt, as does the Collins Dictionary and Dictionary.com by the way, as well as my personal favourite "Dictionaries of the Scots Language. Particularly given I said I was speaking with a number of their supporters in town before the game and I've said in more than one post I'm pleased they're looking likely to qualify for Germany and that I like the Home Nations all being stronger. But yes, I called the kilt a skirt, so even though pretty much every dictionary available confirms that it is a skirt, I must hate the Scottish.
Were the fans meant to be going into the game anything other than positive?
Scotland have been absolutely flying lately and England had just played and looked shite vs Ukraine.
England will always be favourites vs Scotland. If you compare starting 11s, you could argue only a handful tops from Scotland get into the England side, let alone squad.
Thank you. Appreciate it.
Is that true? From Tuesday's game there were 5 from the EPL. 1 from La Liga, 1 from Saudi, 3 from the Championship and 1 from the SPL.
That's not too bad. We've had worse options over the years.
I could easily flip it by saying that Phillips and Maguire rarely get off the bench for their clubs and Henderson has semi-retired.
Looking back on the game. Gunn only had two saves to make and one England goal was laid on a platter by Robertson.
That's the point, though, teams like France, etc, have several indispensable players. If memory serves France were missing around 5 or 6 players and yet they still made the final.
He is. But from an England point of view, that's a bad thing. I've seen him play for Bayern Munich and he rarely comes deep. He doesn't have to.
Maddison and Foden don't have the chopd for that. Pep had a conversation with Southgate and he was adamant that Foden is better as an inside forward.
Weirdly they all appear to be number 10s.
I do rate Rice, but once Henderson retires Southgate might have to look to the Championship.
How did you know?
Yeah.
The Scots have traditional silly garb....
At least we can wear ours at Weddings, sporting events, etc.
Plus you can't swing a cat without hitting a lady who finds the Kilt a turn on.
Good luck with yours...
https://resizing.flixster.com/LTNAJ...//flxt.tmsimg.com/assets/p3164452_e_v7_aa.jpg
Do you really want to contrast and compare the historical conduct of the Scotland fans to the English fan?
If you do, it won't end well for you.
The Tartan Army have won more trophies than the England team. (Best fans award for Euro 92 and France 98)
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the major difference being that we recognise that looks ridiculous and stopped wearing it like a hundred years ago, not too long before you last beat us actually. You enjoy yourself pal, did you wear your kilt, Scotland shirt and hat like the rest? Did you throw your drink at the big bad England fans from the safety of being the other side of segregation and behind a line of police but run off when you realised the England fans weren't being held in after the game like so many others did? You really come across like you're as pleased as you say you are to have lost the game.And we're talking about conduct on Tuesday night? Happily. I'm presuming you're going to mention the scattering of boo's during the Craig Brown silence, agree disgraceful, but before you go too far down that line you should know that it originated very loudly from the tier above us - there were only Scotland fans in that tier. The small number of England fans down the front that carried it on, incredibly poor taste I agree and they were told as much by those around them afterwards, I saw it happening. But I'm sure you'll think it was fine that the rest of us had things chucked at us for 90 minutes because a couple of muppets down the front, who funnily enough were too far forward to have things thrown at, booed a man that they had heard your own fans booing.
And that's just the first XI. 3 Championship players! Not even getting into the squad, which also matters because those are the players that need to push the first choices to perform. You're doing nothing to disprove the point that as a squad you are scrambling around for top flight footballers.Thank you. Appreciate it.
Is that true? From Tuesday's game there were 5 from the EPL. 1 from La Liga, 1 from Saudi, 3 from the Championship and 1 from the SPL.
That's not too bad. We've had worse options over the years.
I could easily flip it by saying that Phillips and Maguire rarely get off the bench for their clubs and Henderson has semi-retired.
Looking back on the game. Gunn only had two saves to make and one England goal was laid on a platter by Robertson.
That's the point, though, teams like France, etc, have several indispensable players. If memory serves France were missing around 5 or 6 players and yet they still made the final.
England are not, irrespective of what Maguire and Phillips are currently doing. They could drop them entirely if they so desired and still pick top flight players. So that's a managerial choice not a squad depth issue. It was really just a common sense point that England have a higher quality of player to choose from which is why I wouldn't get too excited about beating you. It should be par for the course for an England manager to be able to outflank a team like Scotland and it's credit to you that you're playing well generally.
Not sure where you're going with the France point. You seem to be firing back in response to points you think I'm putting forward not ones I actually have. We know England have problems against big teams. That's the point for many of us that don't rate the manager, at major tournaments and with Gareth Southgate, we won't win anything. Has nothing to do with beating Scotland or the expectation we should do so comfortably.
As I said, our trading garb is worn at Weddings, etc. Hell, your very own King wears the kilt when het travels north.
And we're talking about conduct on Tuesday night? Happily. I'm presuming you're going to mention the scattering of boo's during the Craig Brown silence, agree disgraceful, but before you go too far down that line you should know that it originated very loudly from the tier above us - there were only Scotland fans in that tier. The small number of England fans down the front that carried it on, incredibly poor taste I agree and they were told as much by those around them afterwards, I saw it happening. But I'm sure you'll think it was fine that the rest of us had things chucked at us for 90 minutes because a couple of muppets down the front, who funnily enough were too far forward to have things thrown at, booed a man that they had heard your own fans booing.
Plus, ladies do generally love the Kilt.
If you think it's "silly" then fair enough. However, I'm going to give you advice that doesn't resonate with this generation "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all".
No. I'm talking about England fans in Italia 90, France 98, etc. I'm talking about England fans leaving a trail of destruction wherever their team plays.
I'm talking about English clubs being banned from Europe because of the Heysel disaster in the 80s.
You're talking about missing throwing? Yeah. Small potatoes compared to the aforementioned.
You're being very generous with your assessment of Scotland's squad and, considering what you're presenting as strengths in the Scotland line-up, weirdly critical of England's squad.
England's squad was full of top level players. Only one player plays outside of Europe's top leagues, and that's Henderson, a player who had his inclusion heavily questioned. Scotland's squad included six from the SPL, six from the Championship and one from the Saudi league. Scotland's PL players included one goal in 34 appearances, Ryan Christie, can't get a game at United, McTominay, and Everton squad-player, Nathan Patterson. There's also Kieren Tierney who Arsenal deemed surplus to requirements and is now at Sociedad, and Lewis Ferguson at Bologna.
You could pick a side of players that weren't in the squad from the "recent call-ups" section of the England national team wikipedia that you'd expect to easily beat Scotland; Pope, Dean Henderson, Stones, Shaw, James, White, TAA, Mount, Grealish, Toney and Sterling all missed out for one reason or another. The list also includes Forster, Mings, Dier, Coady, Ward-Prowse, Abraham and Bowen, all of which would walk into the Scotland squad.
I just don't understand why you've taken such umbrage to the statement that Scotland struggle to find quality for their squad in a way that England don't, and as a result of that, England were heavy favourites for the match between the sides. You're tying yourself in knots trying to make it look like a more even contest than it was. Scotland managed zero shots on target, less than 40% possession, and looked thoroughly outclassed for pretty much the whole match. "Gunn only had two saves to make" is only true if you ignore him conceding from three of England's five shots on target. Robertson might have put the second on a plate, but Scotland's goal came from Maguire turning it into his own net, so that's basically tit-for-tat.
On the last point - France lost Kimpembe, Nkunku and Benzema from their named squad. I can't think of anyone else off the top of my head that missed out. It certainly wasn't half of their starting eleven as you appear to be implying there though. If this is a dig at England losing to France, then I'll just say that a) many England fans don't think Southgate is up to the task of managing the side and b) Kane missed a late penalty that could have changed the course of the match.
Ah, just as I thought, you're talking about historical events, the majority of which were before I, many other posters on this forum and a large number of fans who follow England away in 2023, were even born. That seems about as relevant as the "48-41 is pretty close for a small nation" argument brought up yesterday. Why don't you get a video of that glorious 1-0 win at Wembley in 99 (in a two legged tie that you lost by the way) up on the TV to cheer yourself up and have yourself a lovely day.