Scotland National Team Discussion

MasterDarcy

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And that's just the first XI. 3 Championship players! Not even getting into the squad, which also matters because those are the players that need to push the first choices to perform. You're doing nothing to disprove the point that as a squad you are scrambling around for top flight footballers.

England are not, irrespective of what Maguire and Phillips are currently doing. They could drop them entirely if they so desired and still pick top flight players. So that's a managerial choice not a squad depth issue. It was really just a common sense point that England have a higher quality of player to choose from which is why I wouldn't get too excited about beating you. It should be par for the course for an England manager to be able to outflank a team like Scotland and it's credit to you that you're playing well generally.

Not sure where you're going with the France point. You seem to be firing back in response to points you think I'm putting forward not ones I actually have. We know England have problems against big teams. That's the point for many of us that don't rate the manager, at major tournaments and with Gareth Southgate, we won't win anything. Has nothing to do with beating Scotland or the expectation we should do so comfortably.
I don't understand where you got this "scrambling around for players". The way that you're talking it's like Scotland are bottom of the European Championships group and we're an absolute shambles.

We're at the summit of a group that includes Spain. We are 2 points from qualifying. We're also unbeatable in 9 competitive matches.

Scotland are doing just fine. Thanks.

Don't pretend that England have a massive pool of talent to choose from.

Gareth Southgate has even admitted that the talent pool in England is a massive concern for him.

Southgate admits concern over shrinking talent pool

Take out Bellingham and Kane and England would struggle against most of the top 50 teams. The fact that England don't have a replacement for Kane is a massive issue.

You're being very generous with your assessment of Scotland's squad and, considering what you're presenting as strengths in the Scotland line-up, weirdly critical of England's squad.

England's squad was full of top level players. Only one player plays outside of Europe's top leagues, and that's Henderson, a player who had his inclusion heavily questioned. Scotland's squad included six from the SPL, six from the Championship and one from the Saudi league. Scotland's PL players included one goal in 34 appearances, Ryan Christie, can't get a game at United, McTominay, and Everton squad-player, Nathan Patterson. There's also Kieren Tierney who Arsenal deemed surplus to requirements and is now at Sociedad, and Lewis Ferguson at Bologna.

You could pick a side of players that weren't in the squad from the "recent call-ups" section of the England national team wikipedia that you'd expect to easily beat Scotland; Pope, Dean Henderson, Stones, Shaw, James, White, TAA, Mount, Grealish, Toney and Sterling all missed out for one reason or another. The list also includes Forster, Mings, Dier, Coady, Ward-Prowse, Abraham and Bowen, all of which would walk into the Scotland squad.

I just don't understand why you've taken such umbrage to the statement that Scotland struggle to find quality for their squad in a way that England don't, and as a result of that, England were heavy favourites for the match between the sides. You're tying yourself in knots trying to make it look like a more even contest than it was. Scotland managed zero shots on target, less than 40% possession, and looked thoroughly outclassed for pretty much the whole match. "Gunn only had two saves to make" is only true if you ignore him conceding from three of England's five shots on target. Robertson might have put the second on a plate, but Scotland's goal came from Maguire turning it into his own net, so that's basically tit-for-tat.

On the last point - France lost Kimpembe, Nkunku and Benzema from their named squad. I can't think of anyone else off the top of my head that missed out. It certainly wasn't half of their starting eleven as you appear to be implying there though. If this is a dig at England losing to France, then I'll just say that a) many England fans don't think Southgate is up to the task of managing the side and b) Kane missed a late penalty that could have changed the course of the match.
And people are being overly critical of Scotland. Someone said that "Scotland are scrambling around for players". Yeah. We're a mess. 5 wins out of 5 in our European Championships group. 2 points from qualifying and unbeaten in 9.

Not bad for a team "scrambling around for players".

Having players playing at the "top level" is deceptive. If a nation had 5 players at Wolves and 6 players at Shedfield United, you could say that they have players playing at the "top level".

Doesn't mean anything. What really matters is how many trophies will be won by the collective first XI: Only Kane and Walker, (Foden and Phillips aren't in England's first XI)

Top teams like Brazil, Germany, Italy, etc, have dozens.

Surely your aspirations are to compare yourselves to the top nations? (Even though England only have 1 trophy on the shelf. The Big nations have several each)

So, you're saying that England's second XI would beat Scotland? That is a ridiculous and arrogant thing to say.

Take Tuesday out of the equation. How about the two previous competitive matched between England and Scotland. One ended 2-2 with Kane scoring in injury time to earn a draw (after Armstrong gave it away) then there was the 0-0 at Euro 2020 where Scotland deserved to win.

If England were so good the aforementioned matches would've been won by a cricket score.

Scotland can't play friendlies. For whatever reason we are so bad at them. We played Turkey in November and we didn't turn up. It was reminiscent of Tuesday.

Are England a top team? In my opinion. No.

If we play our next friendly (France) like we did in Tuesday, they'll mop the floor with us.

France were without:

Lucas Hernandez, Karim Benzema, N'Golo Kate, Paul Pogba, Mike Maignan, Presnel Kimpembe and Christopher Nkunku

That's at least 5 players who would've started.
 

Alex99

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@MasterDarcy he said struggling to find "top flight players", and a quarter of your squad was from the Championship, so yes, it fit the bill. Outside of that, a chunk of Scotland's "top flight" players are from the not so great Scottish Premiership plus one from Saudi.

And I agree, you could fill your quota of "players playing at the top level" with players from middling and bottom clubs in those leagues. For example, a striker that's scored one goal in 34 Premier League appearances for Bournemouth, or a defender who is a squad player at Everton, or, to go abroad, a midfielder plying his trade at Bologna. But that's the Scotland squad.

Outside of Pickford at Everton and Henderson from Saudi, the lowest England were going for players was Chelsea in 12th and Palace in 11th (from last season). The rest were from clubs that either qualified for Europe or were competing for places until the very last day of the season. That, or we got them from AC Milan, Bayern Munich or Real Madrid.

You're taking offence at things that haven't been said. Scotland have had a great qualifying campaign so far, and are well worth their place in the next Euros. I didn't see anything above that said they weren't, just that you'd expect England to be heavy favourites in a match against them, which they should be. Those other two results were disappointing on England's part. They were still heavy favourites for them.

I'd expect that selection of players I listed to still be favourites against Scotland, yes.

As I said, you're getting offended by things that haven't been said. Scotland, when compared to England, objectively do scramble around to find top flight players for their squad, as evidenced by a quarter of their squad being from the Championship, and a good chunk of their top flight players being from "lesser" leagues or lower clubs in top leagues.

It's beside the point, but I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of England either, at least not with Southgate in charge. And yeah, they likely will drop off when Kane goes because this has been the best England side in ages, and it'd be unrealistic to expect them to maintain the level. They'll still be favourites in a match against Scotland though.

France had more players missing than I remembered, but Pogba was no loss and Maignan certainly wasn't first choice goalkeeper. I'm not sure Nkunku was a guaranteed starter either. This is, again, all beside the point though. I think most would have favoured reigning world champions France above England during that tournament.
 

MasterDarcy

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@MasterDarcy he said struggling to find "top flight players", and a quarter of your squad was from the Championship, so yes, it fit the bill. Outside of that, a chunk of Scotland's "top flight" players are from the not so great Scottish Premiership plus one from Saudi.

And I agree, you could fill your quota of "players playing at the top level" with players from middling and bottom clubs in those leagues. For example, a striker that's scored one goal in 34 Premier League appearances for Bournemouth, or a defender who is a squad player at Everton, or, to go abroad, a midfielder plying his trade at Bologna. But that's the Scotland squad.

Outside of Pickford at Everton and Henderson from Saudi, the lowest England were going for players was Chelsea in 12th and Palace in 11th (from last season). The rest were from clubs that either qualified for Europe or were competing for places until the very last day of the season. That, or we got them from AC Milan, Bayern Munich or Real Madrid.

You're taking offence at things that haven't been said. Scotland have had a great qualifying campaign so far, and are well worth their place in the next Euros. I didn't see anything above that said they weren't, just that you'd expect England to be heavy favourites in a match against them, which they should be. Those other two results were disappointing on England's part. They were still heavy favourites for them.

I'd expect that selection of players I listed to still be favourites against Scotland, yes.

As I said, you're getting offended by things that haven't been said. Scotland, when compared to England, objectively do scramble around to find top flight players for their squad, as evidenced by a quarter of their squad being from the Championship, and a good chunk of their top flight players being from "lesser" leagues or lower clubs in top leagues.

It's beside the point, but I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of England either, at least not with Southgate in charge. And yeah, they likely will drop off when Kane goes because this has been the best England side in ages, and it'd be unrealistic to expect them to maintain the level. They'll still be favourites in a match against Scotland though.

France had more players missing than I remembered, but Pogba was no loss and Maignan certainly wasn't first choice goalkeeper. I'm not sure Nkunku was a guaranteed starter either. This is, again, all beside the point though. I think most would have favoured reigning world champions France above England during that tournament.
Remind me what England won when they had players like Ferdinand, Lampard, Carrick, Campbell, Gerrard, Scholes, Cole, Rooney, Shearer, Owen, Beckham, etc.

Football isn't about what's on paper. Nor is it necessarily about players playing at the top level. The fact that that guy made a note of saying that really tells me that lots of people really don't get Football.

Besides, whose to say what's top level? Messi, etc, isn't playing at the top level. Which team would reject him?

Was I offended? Not particularly. I just take umbrage with the guy's attitude and insinuation that England should absolutely mop the floor with England.

The difference isn't as vast as people think. Nor do I subscribe to the notion that England are world class. They aren't.

Anyway.

I don't want to talk about this anymore as it's a waste of time.

Have a good day and enjoy the Brighton match. :)
 

Alex99

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Remind me what England won when they had players like Ferdinand, Lampard, Carrick, Campbell, Gerrard, Scholes, Cole, Rooney, Shearer, Owen, Beckham, etc.

Football isn't about what's on paper. Nor is it necessarily about players playing at the top level. The fact that that guy made a note of saying that really tells me that lots of people really don't get Football.

Besides, whose to say what's top level? Messi, etc, isn't playing at the top level. Which team would reject him?

Was I offended? Not particularly. I just take umbrage with the guy's attitude and insinuation that England should absolutely mop the floor with England.

The difference isn't as vast as people think. Nor do I subscribe to the notion that England are world class. They aren't.

Anyway.

I don't want to talk about this anymore as it's a waste of time.

Have a good day and enjoy the Brighton match. :)
What has that failed, mismanaged generation got to do with the fact that Scotland have a weaker squad than England in 2023?

No one said it's all played on paper, but it's the expected "on paper" strength that determines the favourite in a match.

These are really simple points that you fail to grasp and end up bringing up random shit like the French WC squad, England's squad 20 years ago, or Messi playing in Miami to deflect.
 

MasterDarcy

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Anyway.

Back to topic.

We need 2 points from our remaining 3 matches. Spain will be difficult but I can see us collecting 6 points from Norway and Georgia.

If we play against Spain and France (friendly) like we did on Tuesday it'll be a mauling.

Those two are actually football giants. Not fake giants who only have a rep because of the standard of their domestic league.

They've won more than a single major trophy. Both have won 4.
 

SilentWitness

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Really disappointing to lose in the fashion we did with so much controversy but proud of the side for putting through that run at the start to see us through. Would be amazing if we could back it up with another win to top the group. Very unlikely but hope we keep some momentum going into next summer.
 

Vault Dweller

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Congrats Scots!
Thanks man!

Over the moon, yes we lost disappointingly last week but our form has been excellent and the boys have been rewarded, back to back Euros is fantastic. I get married next year so that will be a nice way to have a stag do before the big day :lol: :D but after so long in the wilderness, it's great to be seeing us at tournaments again. Hopefully Wales get over the line too now!
 

SilentWitness

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Thanks man!

Over the moon, yes we lost disappointingly last week but our form has been excellent and the boys have been rewarded, back to back Euros is fantastic. I get married next year so that will be a nice way to have a stag do before the big day :lol: :D but after so long in the wilderness, it's great to be seeing us at tournaments again. Hopefully Wales get over the line too now!
Amazing, congratulations on the engagement and hopefully we can give you a semi before the big day.
 

TheReligion

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Thanks man!

Over the moon, yes we lost disappointingly last week but our form has been excellent and the boys have been rewarded, back to back Euros is fantastic. I get married next year so that will be a nice way to have a stag do before the big day :lol: :D but after so long in the wilderness, it's great to be seeing us at tournaments again. Hopefully Wales get over the line too now!
Congrats x2 in that case!

Be good to have as many of the home nations as possible in the competition
 

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Amazing, congratulations on the engagement and hopefully we can give you a semi before the big day.
:lol: Brilliant haha and cheers mate, but yeah will be great to have that tournament to enjoy before the big day in September!

Congrats x2 in that case!

Be good to have as many of the home nations as possible in the competition
Thank you and indeed! Hope to see as many there as possible, always think it is a far better occasion when it is thus.
 

MegadrivePerson

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When the draw was made I didn't give Scotland a cat in hells chance of qualifying. It really is a remarkable achievement when you look at some of the big names that Spain, Norway and even Georgia with Kvaratskhelia have to call on. It's even more impressive that Scotland have done it with games to spare too!
 

Norman Brownbutter

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Getting our arses felt heavy tonight, boys. Solid start to the night with a goal from Gilmore, but its all went a bit wrong since.

I only want one thing from the Euros next year, to make it out of the group stage. Just once in my life time is all I ask.
 

SilentWitness

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Getting our arses felt heavy tonight, boys. Solid start to the night with a goal from Gilmore, but its all went a bit wrong since.

I only want one thing from the Euros next year, to make it out of the group stage. Just once in my life time is all I ask.
France had a strong side out and we used a lot of our bench players so I'm not too worried about that loss last night. The England game was more of a realistic benchmark and we were very poor in that first half vs them. Much better in the second half too. Same with the Spain game. I think we have enough if we are on best form to get out of a group.
 

baskinginthesun

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Getting our arses felt heavy tonight, boys. Solid start to the night with a goal from Gilmore, but its all went a bit wrong since.

I only want one thing from the Euros next year, to make it out of the group stage. Just once in my life time is all I ask.
Same. This team good enough to progress out of the group. Hopefully Clarke learned his lessons from the last Euros.
 

SilentWitness

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Bit of a frustrating result the other night but Haaland our gives us a good chance of finishing the campaign on a high.

Did anyone manage to get tickets in the lottery?

For some reason I went to the portal and it says that I didn't submit any application even though I did. :(
 

Gio

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Bit of a frustrating result the other night but Haaland our gives us a good chance of finishing the campaign on a high.

Did anyone manage to get tickets in the lottery?

For some reason I went to the portal and it says that I didn't submit any application even though I did. :(
Nah none. Don't know anyone who managed to get any either.

That's 5 poor-to-middling performances on the bounce now. I get it we've qualified and taken the foot off the gas a little, but we need to get our shit together before the summer.
 

SilentWitness

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Nah none. Don't know anyone who managed to get any either.

That's 5 poor-to-middling performances on the bounce now. I get it we've qualified and taken the foot off the gas a little, but we need to get our shit together before the summer.
Yep, said it in the other thread but those two games showed the best of us and worst of us under Clarke. It feels like such a pessimist view after we started the campaign so strongly but this side has shown it is capable of getting to the knockouts if we perform our best and Clarke needs to find a way of ensuring the mentality doesn't dip further.
 

MayosNoun

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Scotland really struggle in a back 4 - clearly better with a 5.

Also the stand in players are nowhere near the level of say, Hickey, Tierney, Robertson and Gunn.
 

baskinginthesun

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Yeah. Form really needs to come up if we have any chance at the Euros. Really hope Clarke was just dithering a bit with the squad since he was without his regulars.

Hopefully he uses the early Qualification form as a marker to prove that this team is capable.
 

Gio

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Scotland really struggle in a back 4 - clearly better with a 5.

Also the stand in players are nowhere near the level of say, Hickey, Tierney, Robertson and Gunn.
Yeah I'd agree with that. That extra gear we have really comes from the entire left flank operating in sync with Robertson, Tierney and McGinn all overloading and interchanging. Plus the defence clearly needs the support of an extra CB. I don't think Hendry's move is doing his sharpness any favours as he looked a bit off it over the last two games. Agree with the drop-off - in fairness we are down to 4th choice left-back in Taylor which hopefully is just an exceptional set of circumstances. Zander Clark hasn't really convinced he's international class in these games either.
 

MayosNoun

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Yeah I'd agree with that. That extra gear we have really comes from the entire left flank operating in sync with Robertson, Tierney and McGinn all overloading and interchanging. Plus the defence clearly needs the support of an extra CB. I don't think Hendry's move is doing his sharpness any favours as he looked a bit off it over the last two games. Agree with the drop-off - in fairness we are down to 4th choice left-back in Taylor which hopefully is just an exceptional set of circumstances. Zander Clark hasn't really convinced he's international class in these games either.
Hendry was an absolute shambles. So poor.

Tierney and Porteous are guaranteed starters for me when fit. Robertson and Hickey the easy decision at full back / wing back.

The final centre back spot should be between Soutter and McKenna for me.

The midfield is pretty set. The attack needs pace and someone who can run at defenders. Christie and Brown haven’t been great and if Gordon or Barnes do switch, they’d be ideal.
 

Stack

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Getting our arses felt heavy tonight, boys. Solid start to the night with a goal from Gilmore, but its all went a bit wrong since.

I only want one thing from the Euros next year, to make it out of the group stage. Just once in my life time is all I ask.
Im getting on a bit these days, would be lovely to see it happen before I finally stuff it. Just once and i will die happy.
The pessimist in me however still kicks in to gear. We have a team of journeymen who have done a brilliant job of getting to the finals. I just fear we lack enough players with a bit of special to get out of the group stage.