Sergio Ramos | Signs new 5 year contract

[Mciahel Goodman]

You're using Kaka and Zlatan as examples of good buys? in summer 2006, Chelsea had won two titles and bought Schevchenko to make an attack that already had Drogba even stronger. We sold RvN, had lost Keane and replaced him with Michael Carrick, we then went on to win the title. In 2007, we won the league and we invested in Hargo, Tevez, Nani and Anderson, we then went on to win the double. What I am trying to say is success comes at the back of very different circumstances. You need to take so many factors in considerations and most of them are simply invisible to the average fan like you or me. Sometimes you need to spend and on other occasions you need to be quiet. This idea that it's all a straight up formula like a video game is truly the most absurd thing on these pages.

They were good buys -- it didn't work out, but how is buying the previous year's best player ever a bad buy? You're using Shevchenko as the reason Chelsea regressed? Also, 06/07 was the year Ronaldo started to look like the world class player he is today. That had far more to do with us winning the league than anything else.

Our transfer activity from 09-14 was laughably bad, and we're paying the price for it now.

 

[.Rossi]

Dave>Ramos.
He's a different league to him. He's a galactico, Ramos is a journey man. Good player but not a great one yet we're supposed to accept giving them Dave and playing them another 40 million euros. It's taking the piss.

Dave cost 20 million euros and we're supposed to believe Ramos is worth 60 million. It's laughable. Worse, it sets a precedent.

This saga is going to be more vital for the future. We can not let ourselves be bullied.

 

[MUFCpiffgawd]

Sergio Ramos is talented but a disaster at CB. why would we sign Ramos when we already have a talented disaster on the roster??

 

[Rory 7]

No i base that opinion on the average quality we buy believing that its better to buy average and "develop" them over buying top quality for a higher price as a further development point.

Do you think its a coincidence that Man United's highest transfer fee (sold) after ronaldo and beckham is around 15 mil? Thats a good reflection of the quality we buy and sell.

We buy average and turn average into acceptable or shit.

The attitude that man united didn't need to spend big and sign stars was naive. And thats why we are in a world of shit right now having to spend 150 mil per season trying to fix it.

Oh right. I thought it was coz SAF retired. Silly me.

 

[Rezyuz]

That's the point isn't it? You don't need 11 world class players in their positions, you need the right balance. No team in the world has 11 individual top quality players, a lot of them seem that way though because they have the balance right. If Rakitic was here, you can bet your mortgage that our pundits and fans will be going on about how "yea but would he get into the Barcelona side for example?".

Are you kidding me? Rakitic was by far one of the best midfielders in la liga.

You are right, you dont need 11 world class players in their positions if you want to become like Arsenal and Liverpool and compete for the 4th spot the next 5 years.

If you want to challenge the CL title every year then yes you need 9+ world class players in your team.

And you say no team has 11 individual top quality players? Point me the squad players who were starting XI every single week for Pep's Barcelona or Real Madrid.

 

[Rezyuz]

Oh right. I thought it was coz SAF retired. Silly me.

Ye then you are just as wrong as most people in denial around here.

 

[Theonas]

They were good buys -- it didn't work out, but how is buying the previous year's best player ever a bad buy? You're using Shevchenko as the reason Chelsea regressed? Also, 06/07 was the year Ronaldo started to look like the world class player he is today. That had far more to do with us winning the league than anything else.

Our transfer activity from 09-14 was laughably bad, and we're paying the price for it now.

Who on earth does not judge the quality of the buy by how it worked out? Are you saying you would have been happier with our buys from 09-14 if they were "supposed" to be good rather than if they actually turned out to be? I am not using Schevchenko as the reason Chelsea regressed, I am using him as an example of how things can look so obvious one moment, only for it turn out to be the absolute opposite to justify my point that it is not an exact science.

Our transfer activity from 09-14 was not laughably bad, we were successful during that period and the idea that SAF magically won every trophy on his own is a bit strange to me. But again, I am basing this on the fact that those buys actually contributed in what we achieved and not on the fact that they did not generate the buzz Kaka or Zalatan did but to each his parameters I suppose.

 

[Hostekule]

No hes talking about "not everyone needs to be class". Valencia cannot be called a squad player if that was his definition of it. Hes talking about average to fill up the spots.

Stop using the term squad player, it has no meaning. Being class is also very vague term.

You need top class players to be competitive, but not everyone has to be a world star. Players like Valencia are important throughout a season. I think your point is that we shouldn't sell top class players and replace them with squad players, like Young, Valencia, Fellaini.

 

[Rory 7]

Of course it's way off. One shIte year and another average one has insanely messed up with our fans. Suddenly we're the worst at everything and we can't do anything right. Everything we do is naive and could have been done been better if it were not for something so simple the average Caf fan could have told you. You can argue all day but some fans cannot simply accept that like pretty much every other team in history, we are simply going through a rough 2 maybe 3 years.

the voice of reason.

 

[Rory 7]

Ye then you are just as wrong as most people in denial around here.

 

[Jazz]

I hope the stories about us offering money and De Gea for Ramos are crap. Surely we're not that stupid? At this rate even I would do a better job at this transfer malarkey

 

[Sammyjunn]

Are you kidding me? Rakitic was by far one of the best midfielders in la liga.

You are right, you dont need 11 world class players in their positions if you want to become like Arsenal and Liverpool and compete for the 4th spot the next 5 years.

If you want to challenge the CL title every year then yes you need 9+ world class players in your team.

And you say no team has 11 individual top quality players? Point me the squad players who were starting XI every single week for Pep's Barcelona or Real Madrid.

Abidal and Pedro were top class, not world class. Carvajal isnt world class either.

 

[manutddjw]

I always thought he was good player, although I never liked him, but this situation has changed my opinion. We should thank him for being an unwitting participant in our operation of "screw with Real Madrid". I'm sure he doesn't actually want to come here, but by him raising an issue with Madrid, I'd imagine they'll just say "here's 40 million for De Gea, leaves us alone and stop causing trouble with our players". It's a hell of alot better than where we were just last week. Thanks Sergio.

 

[Rezyuz]

Stop using the term squad player, it has no meaning. Being class is also very vague term.

You need top class players to be competitive, but not everyone has to be a world star. Players like Valencia are important throughout a season. I think your point is that we shouldn't sell top class players and replace them with squad players, like Young, Valencia, Fellaini.

I wasn't the one using the term squad player i was explaining to another person what the OP meant with the word squad player.

My point is that if Man United wants to regain dominance again and compete every year for the title and CL title then you cannot have the attitude of "we cannot have a team full of stars".

Everyone knows that you need players like Valencia. But what most of here do not understand is that players like Valencia belong on the bench and should only play when the quality RW/RM/RB is injured or tired. And that should be the only reason to leave the bench.

But in recent years these type of players like Valencia, Young, Evans, Fletcher, Hernandez weren't just squad players. They were OUR CORE TEAM. Standing there every week from 0 to 90th. And now when rivals improved over years we suddenly need to improve within 1-2 years what we missed out on the past 8 years.

 

[Theonas]

Are you kidding me? Rakitic was by far one of the best midfielders in la liga.

You are right, you dont need 11 world class players in their positions if you want to become like Arsenal and Liverpool and compete for the 4th spot the next 5 years.

If you want to challenge the CL title every year then yes you need 9+ world class players in your team.

And you say no team has 11 individual top quality players? Point me the squad players who were starting XI every single week for Pep's Barcelona or Real Madrid.

This is heading to becoming one of those very long arguments about how we define world class players. I am of the belief that most players do not have a specific value that can be easily transferred from one team to another. Most players I believe are highly reliant on what's around them (league, team, formation, style and so on). Only a few are world class no matter where, what or when and that would be your Messi, Suarez, Ronaldo, Iniesta for example.

That is my point about those teams, they develop a system and an identity that extract the best of what they get. That is why we can't just put a Busquets, Carvajal, Bernat, Rakitic and so on and just expect things to magically improve. This to me seems like an assumotion promoted by the video game culture, lack of patience from the fans and relative tactical naivete of English teams and over reliance on individuals.

It is for these reasons that no, I do not think that any team has 11 world class players but 3 or 4 game changers and the rest are very high quality players who are being made to look of even higher quality because of the system at place. That's what we had under Fergie and that's where I hope the club does in the future instead of just acting like horny teenagers.

 

[Rezyuz]

Abidal and Pedro were top class, not world class. Carvajal isnt world class either.

I said top quality players.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Who on earth does not judge the quality of the buy by how it worked out? Are you saying you would have been happier with our buys from 09-14 if they were "supposed" to be good rather than if they actually turned out to be?

I'm saying that Real buying Kaka was a declaration of intent (look where they are now, btw). It didn't work out but the other world class players they bought did. It's not an exact science, but if you buy Ronaldo and Kaka you can be reasonably sure one of them will at least be successful.

Our transfer activity from 09-14 was not laughably bad, we were successful during that period and the idea that SAF magically won every trophy on his own is a bit strange to me. But again, I am basing this on the fact that those buys actually contributed in what we achieved and not on the fact that they did not generate the buzz Kaka or Zalatan did but to each his parameters I suppose.

List who we bought between selling Ronaldo and buying Van Persie -- it's generally b-list, bang average stuff. Then contrast that with the decade of signings previous.

SAF won those titles despite underwhelming recruitment, not because of it. It's no coincidence how much work was needed on our squad when SAF retired, it had been neglected for years, we had slipped. The side that won the title in '09 compared to the one that won the title in '13 -- same level of quality you think?

 

[Hostekule]

I wasn't the one using the term squad player i was explaining to another person what the OP meant with the word squad player.

My point is that if Man United wants to regain dominance again and compete every year for the title and CL title then you cannot have the attitude of "we cannot have a team full of stars".

Everyone knows that you need players like Valencia. But what most of here do not understand is that players like Valencia belong on the bench and should only play when the quality RW/RM/RB is injured or tired. And that should be the only reason to leave the bench.

But in recent years these type of players like Valencia, Young, Evans, Fletcher, Hernandez weren't just squad players. They were OUR CORE TEAM. Standing there every week from 0 to 90th. And now when rivals improved over years we suddenly need to improve within 1-2 years what we missed out on the past 8 years.

To be fair all of those players have had very good spells for us proving to be more than good enough, but I agree that we need to recruit players of higher quality and move certain players back to a rotation/back up role.

Anyways, Ramos would go under top class for me. Would be glad if we signed him, but as people say it seems he's just using us.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

It is for these reasons that no, I do not think that any team has 11 world class players but 3 or 4 game changers and the rest are very high quality players who are being made to look of even higher quality because of the system at place. That's what we had under Fergie and that's where I hope the club does in the future instead of just acting like horny teenagers.

Bayern has 11 world class players. As does Real + Barca.

 

[Rezyuz]

To be fair all of those players have had very good spells for us proving to be more than good enough, but I agree that we need to recruit players of higher quality and move certain players back to a rotation/back up role.

Yup i fully agree Valencia had a great season for us, and he fully deserved to be in the XI. But the problem is in the season after when he underperformed week in week out he still stood in the XI every week. And there lies the problem.

 

[Rezyuz]

This is heading to becoming one of those very long arguments about how we define world class players.

In future conversations we should rate them 1/10 :P

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Moyes really messed up the perception of SAFs last purchases over his last five seasons in here.

 

[Rezyuz]

Moyes really messed up the perception of SAFs last purchases over his last five seasons in here.

Come on man it was so obvious during the 2012 season how bad our team was and how much it relied on RvP's unbelievable scoring capabilities.

90% of the matches were just plain horrible with RvP scoring an impossible goal in the end.

 

[NJM78]

I'd forgotten that Alves signed a new contract at Barca. He played that really well, so well that I thought he'd actually left.

 

[golden_blunder]

Are you kidding me? Rakitic was by far one of the best midfielders in la liga.

You are right, you dont need 11 world class players in their positions if you want to become like Arsenal and Liverpool and compete for the 4th spot the next 5 years.

If you want to challenge the CL title every year then yes you need 9+ world class players in your team.

And you say no team has 11 individual top quality players? Point me the squad players who were starting XI every single week for Pep's Barcelona or Real Madrid.

Liverpool almost won the league with 1 world class player. They were 1 slip away from doing it.

Sometimes the Sum of all parts is better than the parts

 

[Shark]

Bayern has 11 world class players. As does Real + Barca.

Indeed. In my honest opinion, we are still lightyears away from challenging any of those three. Our overall squad depth might compare, but our starting 11 is miles away.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

I hope the stories about us offering money and De Gea for Ramos are crap. Surely we're not that stupid? At this rate even I would do a better job at this transfer malarkey

The crux of the matter is that De Gea only has one year left on his contract. If he hadn't I would also advocate a like for like deal since I think Ramos is a bit over rated. Toni Kross went from Bayern to Real for how much? 14m?

Real are firmly in the driving seat on this transfer. De Gea wants to join them and he has only one year left and in the end that will determine the transfer fee.

 

[AtlMuppet]

Couple things.

1) Ramos is absolutely world class. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate his guts, what with the playacting, the indiscipline and the hounding of referees. If we get him, he will be an extremely controversial and polarising figure, with the spotlight constantly on him. Think Diego Costa, but much much worse. That said, I will have him in my team in a heartbeat. Apart from Thiago Silva, I cannot think of a centre back in the same ballpark as Ramos in the game today. He's extremely good at all aspects of defending. He's extremely well-rounded and most importantly, he will provide the solidity and leadership at the back that we sorely need. He can provide the X-factor that makes the defence and the team as a whole bigger than the sum of its parts. He's still 29 and has no history of major injuries. He can easily manage five years at the top.

2) That said, some of the figures bandied about for the transfer are insane and make absolutely no sense. De Gea + 22 million? For someone who has two years left on their contract? Yeah, no. I know a lot of people argue along the lines of : "United have the cash and they can pay whatever it takes to secure their targets." But after last year's business and this on top of it, selling clubs will know that they can extract extortionate amounts of money from United. Every negotiation will look like Daniel Levy on the other side. I can only shudder at the thought of Levy actually dealing with this incarnation of United. If nothing else Woodward should control the information and how it gets out. Maybe fan the stories of Ramos' interest more so that that is the story that grabs headlines, not the frankly insane numbers flying around. Destabilising the player makes the player and the selling club show their cards more clearly and puts us in a position of strength. Basically do a De Gea on Madrid.

 

[Mister Ed]

Moyes really messed up the perception of SAFs last purchases over his last five seasons in here.

Saf last purchases for us have been horrible, almost every transfer decision he made has left us a step behind on everyone else atm.

Pogba not being here is his fault alone ! Nobody on here can understand or justify his decision to play Park and Rafael in the midfield instead of giving him his chances he clearly deserved.

He didn't want to pay the few extra millions to secure Hazard because of moral prciniples about agent fees. Well that turned out real good as Hazard is now worth more than double the fee Chelsea ended up paying for him.

He was not interested in Modric as replacement for Scholes or Bale for Giggs until it was royally too late and Real Madrid snapped up altough he has seen them more and longer than most managers. Fans we're saying he should have signed up those two for years and years or atleast invest in a midfielder like Scholes but he never did it !

Nani, Anderson, Bébé, Obertan, Hernandez, Valencia, Kagawa, Young, Smalling, Jones, Rafael, Fabio, Powell, owen, Zaha all overpaid signings he made for us that haven't worked out because they lack quality and simply aren't good enough (many of them also on ridiculously high wages). Smalling and Young have had their first decent season for a long while but the rest been crap with the capital letter C.

RVP worked out for 1 season. Than he has been no more than a hinderance for the team, a gruesomly overpaid and constantly injurred hinderance that we're struggling to sell now because nobody is interested in him due to the high wages. Berbatov been a similarly miserable buy from the club, so darn expensive and didn't work out at all.

Not to forget Cleverly and how long he kept giving that boy chances he never deserved in the first place.

I don't know why but in all decisions about which we players we should go for, how much we should spend on them, which players we shouldn't go for because they are too expensive, how much salary we should give them, who we should give chances in the team and who not, you just can't but say there is a severe lack of judgement and eye for quality. For the last part it is not only Fergies responsability and fault but also our scouting altough in the end Fergie has set up our scouting aswell and he managed them just like anyother sportive part of the club.

He is an amazing coach and probably one of the best if not the best people manager the game will ever see and he certainly earned his glory as a guy with an eye for talent when he brought Ronaldo to the club or Ruud, VDS, Ferdinand, Evra, Vidic, Carrick, Scholes, Giggs and Beckham from the youth to name just a few but those last 5 seasons, in fact starting the season after we sold Ronaldo have not been good in terms of transfers or general player based decisions.

Obviously he was still so good he won things but I think it was more despite the lack of quality player rather then because of the quality of his players.

The greatest legend this club could ever hope for and everybody owes him eternal gratitude and nothing but the utmost respect if you are a United fan yet despite all that we must not be blind for the shortcoming in the last 5 seasons in terms of player based decisions and the deterimental effect it has had over the last 2 seasons.

Only successtory from those last 5 seasons is DDG and now we have to see even that go to dust because the club didnt bother signing him up on a long term deal sooner.

 

[Cassidy]

Couple things.

1) Ramos is absolutely world class. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate his guts, what with the playacting, the indiscipline and the hounding of referees. If we get him, he will be an extremely controversial and polarising figure, with the spotlight constantly on him. Think Diego Costa, but much much worse. That said, I will have him in my team in a heartbeat. Apart from Thiago Silva, I cannot think of a centre back in the same ballpark as Ramos in the game today. He's extremely good at all aspects of defending. He's extremely well-rounded and most importantly, he will provide the solidity and leadership at the back that we sorely need. He can provide the X-factor that makes the defence and the team as a whole bigger than the sum of its parts. He's still 29 and has no history of major injuries. He can easily manage five years at the top.

2) That said, some of the figures bandied about for the transfer are insane and make absolutely no sense. De Gea + 22 million? For someone who has two years left on their contract? Yeah, no. I know a lot of people argue along the lines of : "United have the cash and they can pay whatever it takes to secure their targets." But after last year's business and this on top of it, selling clubs will know that they can extract extortionate amounts of money from United. Every negotiation will look like Daniel Levy on the other side. I can only shudder at the thought of Levy actually dealing with this incarnation of United. If nothing else Woodward should control the information and how it gets out. Maybe fan the stories of Ramos' interest more so that that is the story that grabs headlines, not the frankly insane numbers flying around. Destabilising the player makes the player and the selling club show their cards more clearly and puts us in a position of strength. Basically do a De Gea on Madrid.

I agree with you, I'll just say one thing.
Price in a transaction is heavily dependant on how much you need x.
Currently we desperately need a world class CB IMO, and if this is the only opportunity to get one (Otamendi cannot be labelled world class IMO) then that sets the tone in terms of what we can/should pay.

If we pass up on an opportunity to add a truly world class and great CB to our team who has literally won it all, because of a measly £10m just so we don't look like we got fleeced, then we are a bunch of idiots tbh.

That being said, I'm still not convinced he is attainable, Real Madrid would be complete idiots to accept any deal that involves loosing Ramos, there are only about 2/3 defenders around who can replace him, and they are all likely untransferable themselves.

 

[Sherzad]

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[United22]

Bayern has 11 world class players. As does Real + Barca.

11 is a bit of a push... I'd say Bayern has 7 world class players right now

 

[FC Ronaldo]

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[Mali_Zeus]

Are you kidding me? Rakitic was by far one of the best midfielders in la liga.

You are right, you dont need 11 world class players in their positions if you want to become like Arsenal and Liverpool and compete for the 4th spot the next 5 years.

If you want to challenge the CL title every year then yes you need 9+ world class players in your team.

And you say no team has 11 individual top quality players? Point me the squad players who were starting XI every single week for Pep's Barcelona or Real Madrid.

How many wc players Juventus have. How many Atletico Madrid have or had last year when they reached CL final and won La liga. How many did Borussia have when they reached CL final and were winning Bundesliga.
You dont need 9 + wc players in your team, that's just silly. Even Barcelona and Madrid dont have so much wc players.
You can have 10 wc players but can have a bad team in the same time. Its about the team, not names.
Sure our squad needs new blood and new wc players but what we mostly need is good players which will work good in a system and will make a good team.

 

[Theonas]

I'm saying that Real buying Kaka was a declaration of intent (look where they are now, btw). It didn't work out but the other world class players they bought did. It's not an exact science, but if you buy Ronaldo and Kaka you can be reasonably sure one of them will at least be successful.



List who we bought between selling Ronaldo and buying Van Persie -- it's generally b-list, bang average stuff. Then contrast that with the decade of signings previous.

SAF won those titles despite underwhelming recruitment, not because of it. It's no coincidence how much work was needed on our squad when SAF retired, it had been neglected for years, we had slipped. The side that won the title in '09 compared to the one that won the title in '13 -- same level of quality you think?

See your problem is that everything with you is about transfers. My view on our team post Ronaldo is different than the black and white image you seem to believe in. Tevez at his last year with the club could not get in the team and yet he is used to show how our quality dropped in the years after. Hargreaves had one solid year whereas we had squad players like Brown and O'Shea playing regularly. The difference in that team was Ronaldo pure and simple and losing him was always going to impact in our overall quality. Replacing him man for man was always a task too far considering the fact he was easily one of the top players to have ever played for us. Sir Alex has therefore decided on a "solid first, and rely on attacking players to cause damage on the other end". The reason we were successful then was that each year one of our attacking players performed to an outstanding level from Valencia, Nani, Rooney and Van Persie.

You talk players being b-listers and my point is the a-listers are most of the time developed within their clubs before going on to become of that status. Most of the players at Bayern and Barcelona that you speak of have not been bought a-listers but developed to ones thanks to their quality of course but also because of the stability, vision and system already in place at those teams. In Sir Alex's later years, the focus was on winning and doing it as soon as possible. The development that was patiently worked on between 04-06 was abandoned post Ronaldo. We never had any consistency in terms of style or team structure and selection. I am not saying the players we bought would turn out to be world beaters in other circumstances but I am saying the conditions were not in place to build a cohesive unit to fulfil the potential of those players. That is why it is naïve to just go "well we're not doing well => players bad".

 

[Theonas]

Bayern has 11 world class players. As does Real + Barca.

In video games sure where it's all tied in neat little packages of numbers and stats ...

 

[Enigma_87]

I think you meant 0.5 more fouls not 1.5 more fouls

yeah I mean 50% more but you got my point

Generally you do have to accept a bit of a trade off with ball playing centre backs.

Ideally I'd have varane as well but I'd imagine Madrid consider him the much bigger asset too given his age and potential.

yeah likewise. I'd imagine we have tried to get him(given our reported interest in the past) but either he didn't want to come or Real didn't want to sell.

Ramos is excellent with the ball, but his awareness, concentration and mental level is worrying as well as his decision making at times. Always has been a stuck in defender with some right lunges leaving his position exposed, but IMO never at Vidic level defensively to whom he is compared.

If it's a straight swap and that we can get another defender who can organize the defence then I'd be ok with that as De Gea wants to go, but De Gea + 30-40m euros... We can do better.

 

[Sam]

I genuinely don't think some people have any understanding of the market value of keepers, nevermind keepers with a year left on their contract. People are living in the clouds if they think he's worth £30/40million...Madrid can get him to sign a contract for nothing in just 6 months time ffs.

We are in a horrible situation with this, so if we somehow managed to nab Ramos as part of any deal, we should be delighted.

 

[Cassidy]

yeah I mean 50% more but you got my point

In any case its not a lot 50% makes it sound like it is, but in real terms he will make 1 more foul every 2 games, which isn't exactly a lot.
Playing in the EPL too, some of those won't even be called as fouls

 

[Keeps It tidy]

In the first leg against Juve Real started with no recognized striker and Ramos in midfield because our Chicharito was their only striker fit and because Carlo had no faith in Illaramendi and Lucas Silva. Barca still has to play Mascherano at CB because Batra is mediocre and for some strange reason they decided to outbid us for Vermaelen. The idea that Barca, Bayern and Real have elite players all over the pitch is silly. Even the elite of the elite clubs have a few warts.