Makes you wonder why we bought 2 of those for the premier league
Shaw, Martial... Bailly? Is he the latest victim of Jose’s vindictiveness or simply not good enough?
- Thread starter Raees
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
I don't agree that this form is any better than his last season's form or than LVG season form. In case you didn't get it, I was implying that he might as well have scored more goals had he been given the well deserved run of games when he was in form last season.
Excuse for Martial's form to go down? Even after all the hardship he's had with Mourinho, the moment he deserved his spot and when he was producing he gets shunned to the right and then gets dropped completely. After which he was getting 10-15 minutes here and there, most of which were when we were defending the lead and didn't do much attacking....what form drop?
If anything, your comment on how we shouldn't blame the manager for his signing not performing is reaching. We don't know what could have been since Mourinho decided to drop the guy for Sanchez, a player who's known to have played (and performed) on the right as well, but we can make an educated guess based on the form he's in now that he would have gone and scored a few more probably.
Made him compete for the place? Not much he could have competed with considering Sanchez had "can't be dropped" status from the get go as proven by his dogshiit performances after none of which was he dropped up until recently.
And yeah there's that little thing of Mourinho being OK with Martial as a spare change in deals for Willian/Toby/Perišić etc if the rumours are to be believed.
I agree with this. I don't think the Mou treatment with Shaw and Martial had a major impact on their form. I also think they might be further along if they had been treated differently. We will never know, though.
We are signing midfielders who are tall and defenders who can't win headers.
Mate, I don't think Jose should stay but I do think his tough love method worked with Shaw. Fact is, Pochettino and LvG had expressed doubts about his fitness and mentality prior to Jose.
Jose's handling is not right in the case of other players, but it seems to have worked on Shaw. Remember even then initially his brother was moaning on Twitter calling Jose a cnut before Shaw knuckled down and took it seriously.
Jose's managed us badly overall, but give him credit on some things he got right.
The guy is a sick note. He's the new Phil Jones. He's out injured 3 or 4 times every year. Even in the games that he manages to finish, he always needs physio to come on to the field once or twice because he picks up a knock. I imagine Jose's fed up with his fitness record. He can't rely on him.
Having or showing a strong or unreasoning desire for revenge. Bad how exactly - as far as I can tell, it is absolutely bang on the money - in particular with Martial.
The thing with Shaw is - I am not even a huge fan, nor do I sympathise with him in relation to 'fitness' issues but I do believe Mourinho has exaggerated Shaw's so called 'bad' performances and left him out of the side unreasonably when we compare it to the way he's treated 'favourites' who were just as error-prone and lacking in work-rate.
Luke Shaw v Watford...
The infamous Watford game where Mourinho made the following comments:
In a game full of errors, including by Smalling/Valencia, Luke Shaw who isn't directly to blame for the first two goals is made the scape goat. For the first goal, Martial needs support in order to execute a counter (Shaw makes a run) Martial is fouled, Shaw is caught out of position and Watford get in and cross. Hardly an error if you can call it that at all, just unfortunate that he assumed Martial would hold the ball up or win the foul.
Second goal, he is facing up to an attacker - does his job well, and stays with his man and the other defenders/midfielders fail to deal with through ball, cut back and he's somehow made to look like he is to blame. Could he have left his man, to possibly occupy the space where you'd expect to see a CDM? possibly, but again not a clear cut error by any stretch. Doesn't feature in another game for a month. The fact it is only September, Shaw might be rusty just like the way others such as Rooney were in the game doesn't come into it.
Next incident is against Swansea on November 6. Shaw has been brought back into the fold, plays on 20th October, 26th October, 29th October, 3rd November. So 4 games in close succession. He says he isn't feeling fit for the game on 6 November.. which considering his injury troubles, and the fact he has played 4 games might mean you know he isn't 'lying'.
Doesn't play until the end of the month, starts in two wins and then is left out of the side for 2 months.
Luke Shaw v Everton
Doesn't feature much in second half of 16/17 season, seems to have gotten back into the squad and plays well off the bench but Jose once again seems determined to undermine him.
“He [Shaw] had a good performance but it was his body with my brain. He was in front of me and I was making every decision for him.”
2017/18
Doesn't start a game until December (but yeah Jose doesn't do 'freezing out'). Yet in 14 starts, he manages to rack up 10 wins, 3 draws and 1 loss. One of the wins, he gets subbed off unceremoniously at half time.
Luke Shaw v Brighton
But no he isn't vindictive, or petty, or unreasonable and he has treated Shaw exactly how he would treat someone like Valencia, Young, Matic? to name but a few.
Anthony Martial
First things first, aged 19 debut season 17 goals and 12 assists. By way of context, Insigne (once got 20 goals a season but generally under 14 goals) Bale only managed to beat this in the season he earnt himself the move to Real but generally hovers around the 20 a season mark, Robben similarly so and only once he went to Bayern and matured fully and it took Messi when he was 22 to breach the 20 goal mark and Ronaldo aged 21.
So if we are just looking at it statistically one of the most productive teenagers of all time for a wide player - certainly in modern era. Looking at his game then vs now, there is feck all difference. There are some who might argue he is 'tracking' back more but it is not like he wasn't tracking back then either, it is just compared to a workhorse like Lingard of course he isn't going to match that but he offers much more going forward to make up for that.
So anyway first thing Jose does instead of trying to build the team around this weapon of huge talent is to cut him down to size by making him give up shirt number for an old favourite who isn’t going to last here long (where was the long term planning behind this move? Where was the awareness that something like this whilst objectively means feck all but to a young player might piss them off for no perfectly good reason? Imagine taking 7 off a young Ronaldo after he’s had a good season because we’ve decided to bring in an ageing forward elsewhere - would he not throw a strop too?). Perhaps this was just designed to test him or perhaps Jose didn't particularly care whether or not it mattered regardless sloppy man-management and hurts the feelings of a key key player for us even at that very tender age.
Then to make matters worse, Mourinho subs him off 4 games in a row at the start of the 16/17 season (in all games we were winning by the way) and then leaves him on the bench for our game against City which we lose 1-2 at home. Our best player from the season below doesn't start a game against our biggest rivals? nonsensical. He is then pretty much in and out of the side the rest of the season and even after cracking performances such as his 2 goals v West Ham - he's dropped.
By the end of the season, after 31 starts (only 18 in the league) he is subbed off 12 times including 4 before half time and yet results wise, he usually featured in sides which won 18 wins, 8 draws, 5 losses (one of which was the Watford game where he is taken off at 37 minutes and where even in his absence, we still go on to concede two more in a 3-1 defeat).
Season after we see the Martial v Rashford battle which Jose creates to get the best out of the two, and it becomes clear as day that Martial is the better player and is forcing Mourinho's hand. When he starts, we win and even off the bench he influences games in our favour. By November he's become the de facto starter on the left flank but even then Mourinho continually subs him off by the 60th-70th minute. By December even Jose seems convinced at this stage or so it seems as he enters into brilliant form going into the January Transfer window.
Martial scores 3 goals in 3 games in January and is electrifying and then shit hits the fan when Sanchez is signed and Martial is pushed onto the right flank where he has never played. United are awful, but he still remains our most potent threat albeit he isn't on point with his decision making and things don't quite go his way - it happens.
Which brings us to the infamous Newcastle game where he once again played on the right (see above). After this game he didn't start consecutive games for the rest of the season and only started against teams like Brighton, Bournemouth. Yet look at this performance.. he's our most dynamic attacker by a long stretch, twice he hits good through balls putting in Sanchez who fails to control and the two biggest opportunities are created through his movement and yes he didn't finish the two big chances, but both times they were on target and ffs are we going to criticise Martial of all players for lack of finishing ability? he's one of the most clinical finishers in Europe, let alone United.
So now this brings us to this season where pre season, the 'baby' issue and Mourinho wanting to swap him for Willian yet results have forced Mourinho's hands, and the players have probably demanded that Martial is reinstated and we are witnessing him play consecutive games again - and surprise surprise he has proven to be our most dangerous and effective attacker.
Shaw I can possibly forgive but the way Martial has been treated is an utter disgrace and not defensible in any way shape or form. The very definition of vindictive.
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Bailly is pretty naff.
You could see it very early on. No idea where the hype came from.
You could see it very early on. No idea where the hype came from.
Hardship? Little dramatic. I'm a big Martial fan, but his form dipped terribly. If he's entirely limited to the left wing, and shouldn't have defensive responsibility, then he was still not actually producing enough. It's not an educated guess, it's a guess that he would be at his current level last season. Using rumours in the papers as proof is beneath you. The right side of the pitch isn't some graveyard for footballers...
This is the thing with forum discussions, two posters who don't agree, and legitimately don't agree, rarely reach common ground.
No offence to that long ass post but nobody on here is good enough to write up a detailed tactical breakdown of Martial or any player quite frankly. Even the best couldn't do it based off of solely what the tv station transmits.
And..again no offence..coming from a poster who couldn't recognise we were playing 3 in the middle prior to Newcastle away last year and just flat out called Jose a liar for ruining his detailed posts like these.
And..again no offence..coming from a poster who couldn't recognise we were playing 3 in the middle prior to Newcastle away last year and just flat out called Jose a liar for ruining his detailed posts like these.
That is some post. Martial looking the real deal. Can you do the same for Lindelöf just to show everyone on the caf how bad he is. Or maybe you're a fan?
Last ditch tackles are impressive on the eye and generally memorable. He's made a few of those.
He does some good things when he's charging around all gung-ho, but watching him attempt to perform the absolute basics of defending is generally horrific. His heading technique is among the worst I've seen of any centre back. He's got a great leap, but his head shrinks in to his shoulders and he goes under the ball. He loses duels with players much smaller than him. Until he learns how to header the ball, he just can't be deemed a top quality centre back or even a potential one.
Number 9 taken away from him, public criticism, was getting dropped after very good performances during Mourinho's first season like against WHU, Middlesbrough etc...public criticism about listening to his agent, holding Martial to different standards than other attackers, again dropping him last season when he was in form, signing Sanchez to replace him even tho RW was critical and Martial was performing, 250k fine for attending his baby's birth…
Mate how he dipped in form last season ? He got dropped and then glt fed scraps, 10-15 min here and there in time when we're not even attacking. Limited to LW is bs, he's also very good as CF (games against Burnley ,Everton etc) but Mourinho doesn't play him there.
But he was at this level last season, bagging in goals and assists prior to being dropped. Sanchez was utter shiit yet he was still picked ahead of Martial which is mind-boggling. Big question is whether Martial would have been given any chance had it not been for Sanchez's injury.
Got no problem with people disagreeing, but don't try to twist things in trying to paint it as if Martial was given fair treatment by Mourinho.
He is just not a good defender. You need just one game to see that. Blessed with great athleticism, but defending goes far beyond that. He ust does not have what it takes to be a top defender at this level. He is a one-man show, the kind that brings chaos to a defence.
Can’t be bothered or lacks the capacity to argue with facts so decides that no one is good enough to tactically analyse the game - good one.
Hold on, there are examples of Martial failing to produce in games where he's been brought on too. You've conveniently chosen good pefrormances and then suggested Mourinho is vindictive for not keeping faith and playing Sanchez there.
There is so much that factors into Jose not playing Martial. A refusal to comit to the club is a major one. Inconsistency in overall play may be another. I remember being utterly frustrated in some games where Martial was given a chance to prove himself and failed to do so - particularly when Lukaku was injured for a month or so last year.
In any case, Jose has praised Martial quite heavily of late and benched Sanchez. He says Martial is making more runs that he wanted to see from him earlier and to be honest I see that too. Is he now vindictive towards Sanchez?
I was actually coming round to the idea that making attackers track back more meant improvement. But they a read your post and thought of Sergio Aguero and came back to my senses.
@Raees post #126.
That is some post. 100% agree with everything. His mismanagement of Martial and snide remarks to Shaw about "His body and my brain" was absolutely disgraceful.
Let's not even get onto his destructive tendency to throw the club under the bus to protect his own reputation.
We can sit here and talk for hours, the list is endless. Dont know how anyone can defend him any more.
I give him not an ounce of credit for any of Martial or Shaw's progress. Anyone could see all they needed was some trust from their manager.
The real question is will he show the same faith in them when they start to make a few mistakes and the favourites are back? Unlikely.
His handling of the younger players and favouritism towards certain players was when I knew he isn't the right man for Utd. I gave up on him completely last season when he cast Martial aside for Sanchez after he was in terrific form like you explained above.
He's washed up now. I firmly believe he's living off his past reputation. Bit of a shame we got this version instead. The Portugal manager job is perfect for him now. Go and park the bus there. This is Manchester United.
Anyway, I have no expectations this season.
Im just counting the days until he's gone and we can finally move forward with someone positive again.
That is some post. 100% agree with everything. His mismanagement of Martial and snide remarks to Shaw about "His body and my brain" was absolutely disgraceful.
Let's not even get onto his destructive tendency to throw the club under the bus to protect his own reputation.
We can sit here and talk for hours, the list is endless. Dont know how anyone can defend him any more.
I give him not an ounce of credit for any of Martial or Shaw's progress. Anyone could see all they needed was some trust from their manager.
The real question is will he show the same faith in them when they start to make a few mistakes and the favourites are back? Unlikely.
His handling of the younger players and favouritism towards certain players was when I knew he isn't the right man for Utd. I gave up on him completely last season when he cast Martial aside for Sanchez after he was in terrific form like you explained above.
He's washed up now. I firmly believe he's living off his past reputation. Bit of a shame we got this version instead. The Portugal manager job is perfect for him now. Go and park the bus there. This is Manchester United.
Anyway, I have no expectations this season.
Im just counting the days until he's gone and we can finally move forward with someone positive again.
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1st bolded part: No player is consistent all the time and produces results every game, even the likes of Hazard, Aguero have quiet days.
2nd: The only reason from the Martial camp for refusing to commit was due to his playing time. How can that be held against Martial? The reason he was not willing to commit was Mourinho.
3rd: The month Lukaku was injured he started as a striker against Everton and scored the winning goal iirc. He had a pretty decent month.
4rd: if Sanchez was scoring as assisting for fun before being dropped (he wasn't) yes Mourinho would look vindictive.
Cheers for making this post dude.
Bailly had a great first season and everyone here agreed then we had found a gem. But his form this season was poor and a long benching is in full order. Smalling and Lindelof aren't the answer for me but there can't be any complaints about benching Bailly.
It's pretty clear that we need an upgrade, maybe even two, at CB and that we can clear out Jones, Rojo and probably even Smalling (if we pick up two proper CBs next summer) and work Bailly, Fosu-Mensah and Tuanzebe into the rotation.
As for Shaw and Martial, a shame it took this long to get on Mourinho's good side but here we are and there's not much to be gained about moaning about the last few seasons.
It's pretty clear that we need an upgrade, maybe even two, at CB and that we can clear out Jones, Rojo and probably even Smalling (if we pick up two proper CBs next summer) and work Bailly, Fosu-Mensah and Tuanzebe into the rotation.
As for Shaw and Martial, a shame it took this long to get on Mourinho's good side but here we are and there's not much to be gained about moaning about the last few seasons.
What worked was having no other option at left back because the captain at right back was injured. So Young went to right back and Shaw had to play
He was forced to play Shaw and Shaw took his chance. Its very simple.
Now what if Shaw had been given more chances in the past? It would have happened sooner
Very well said.
This post should be stickied on every Martial threads first opening posts.
Bailly might have the best 'raw ingredients' of all our centrebacks but the issues are obviously his confidence and concentration. And it's also possible one of those injuries have put a bit of the fear in him. His appearances this season have all been beyond appalling.
He played at his best for us when he was alongside Jones. Jones is, all of his gaffs aside, quite a bit less clueless in his reading of the game than Lindelof and Smalling so that definitely helped Bailly.
You would expect the experienced left sided centreback Jose wanted to sign in the summer would have been the constant in the team, with Bailly and Lindelof competing for the other spot. As it was starting the season with Bailly and Lindelof together just ruthlessly exposed their cluelessness and the gaffs kept on rolling and their confidence melted away to nothing.
He played at his best for us when he was alongside Jones. Jones is, all of his gaffs aside, quite a bit less clueless in his reading of the game than Lindelof and Smalling so that definitely helped Bailly.
You would expect the experienced left sided centreback Jose wanted to sign in the summer would have been the constant in the team, with Bailly and Lindelof competing for the other spot. As it was starting the season with Bailly and Lindelof together just ruthlessly exposed their cluelessness and the gaffs kept on rolling and their confidence melted away to nothing.
Oh another thread where we read and write how evil that Portuguese bastard is, right?
I hope once we bin him, evil as he is, OP will shut up for a while.
I hope once we bin him, evil as he is, OP will shut up for a while.
No surprises who the OP is.
The ending to this particular story is first team football, so I hope this for Bailly. He's a raw talent, but clearly not at the level of Smalling and does not have the mental tools to complement him.
Well maybe it's neither. Has anyone considered that the 24 year old is simply going through a bad patch of form and is working his way out of it? Or maybe he's injured. Not everything is so binary.
He's one strange individual. And no, I don't mean Mourinho.
No, no, no, he is a victim!
1. I didn't suggest Martial was consistently bad or consistently poor. I'm saying Jose can't really be called vindicative if he saw Martial wasn't putting in enough on the pitch to maximise his abilities. This isn't a qualm that only Jose had, a lot of posters can see Martial was often flat footed or laboriously jogging on the pitch before coming alive in bursts. Gary Neville also rightly pointed out an improvement in his runs in behind, something he was failing to do before. Funnily enough, Jose Mourinho has cited this as an actual example of something he didn't do before but is doing now, hence his extended run in the team.
I dont think that is signs of a manager who is "vindictive" towards a player, because if he was he'd just irrationally continue to keep him out the team.
2. Martial can't just assume a starting position at Manchester united at 22 years of age. Truth is, he's not as polished a player compared to most top wingers and will face some time out of the limelight. He would need to show fight to get back into the team, which of late you can argue he seems to be doing, but as a manager planning for the long term you also need to play those ready to commit to the club too. I agree with most that Jose could have played Martial more than he has, but again I don't think our manager has been vindictive towards him. This is just an example of the slurr that anti-mourinho fans want to throw to further their agenda against him (Which they don't need to resort to, there is a lot of fair arguments for wanting the man out without going OTT).
Jose seemed to give the likes of Sanchez too long in that position but hindsight is a wonderful thing, I think any manager would probably reckon Sanchez would have eventually played himself into form which he didn't until late. And even then such form needs to be prolonged.
3. There were a lot of matches where I was frustrated with Martial. The one I Was most annoyed with was actually one where Jose himself came out and said something like "you wanted to know why I didn't play Martial. Now you know why". Like most, this is something I really didn't like to be made public, but by god was Martial shite in that match. And there were other matches too. Some players need tough love and their characters need to fit with Mourinho's style of management. It works for many and also implodes for some. I think with Martial it's just that he has so much talent, it will annoy a manager like Jose if he doesn't utilize it fully under his instructions.
4. Martial wasn't dropped for a random player. It was Alexis Sanchez. Any manager would play Sanchez ahead of Martial at the time, and find a spot for Martial elsewhere because of how big a player he was. That said some experimenting didn't help either player and we are at a place where Martial is back in his spot again. Again, tinkering in January is not a smart move and it backfired but to say he's vindictive because of it is just a pile of wank.
Back to the point though, I don't think he has been vindictive to any player bar Schweinstiger, which he actually openly said he regretted the treatment with after he left.
Has he been too open to the media? Yes. Has he made errors in selection regarding Martial? Yes. But I don't think he holds an relentless grudge against such players. They are an important cog in his wheel of late and instrumental in getting good results. He's praised them both since too. That suggests his managerial style is just different. He's no nonsense when they don't perform and will make it known, and he will praise and appreciate when the effort levels/end product is there consistently. The thread title is basically just clickbait.
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Good post. I agree.
Excellent post. I fully agree. I understand why he dropped Martial for Sanchez. It was objectively a good move which backfired. However I would have liked to see martial play as a 9 or on the right (or Sanchez in those positions with Martial on the left). I think Jose could have done more to keep Martial in the 11. But he's doing so now, and fair play.
Honestly, I'm willing to rent a plane and fly a banner with "The Power of Christ compels you!" over OT to demand Jose to be sacked. Anything to stop threads like this popping up daily, really.
There is absolutely no way baily can’t go on to become a phenomenal CB. I have the same feelings about him as I did with Martial when he was out for those few months in the Sanchez nightmare of the first half of this year
Top top post
You’ve lost your mind on this issue. You’re treating the club like a High school drama and you have absolutely no insight to the players of managers mindsets, relationships or motivations beyond guesswork and your own bias. You think mourinho sought ‘revenge’ on these players. It’s an absolutely hysterical standpoint.
Dont waste your time. Some are too blinded by their hate for Mourinho that they would fabricate an alternate reality to suit their agenda.
This is Mourinho after subbing Bailly against newcastle
Asked about the substitution (cant find exact article again), Mourinho said it was simply tactical to bring on an AM for CB in a bid to comeback from being 2 goals down early, and that it was not a case of being dissatisfied with bailly (in which case he would have replaced him with another CB). But leave it to pundits like Rio and fans to make a story out of it
The problem for Bailly is that he plays on the right and needs a calmer head alongside him to be at his best. We currently dont have that, with Lindelof not matured enough to fill the role.
I agree with pretty much all of your post and can see both sides of the coin but the bolded part is the important bit because Mourinho's handling of situations is absolutely inconsistent to the point you can't really say 'he's no nonsense'. It's more unsuitable (to be polite) or out of his depth (to be harsh).
For every Shaw, Martial, Pogba, Lindelof and even Smalling (i.e in and out of the team due to performances) you have Young, Valencia, Lukaku, Matic, Lingard, etc where they haved played regardless of form with no 'repercussions'.
If he's gonna play hard line then do it with the whole squad and don't pick fights/squibbles on individual cases. Therein that's where the problem lies. He's manages everything like an isolated incident. Circumstances, games, tactics, coaching, form etc; in each of those you can anaylse and say he did what he had to but in the bigger picture, there's no consistency.
He's just a bad fit for Utd and a bad manager at the moment. It doesn't matter whether he's doing things 'right' in his own style or not because his style is flawed from the start.
One of the most decorated manager in recent times turns out to be petty and sabotage his own career because he doesnt like shaw's for some reason.
This is absurd. No manager would won what he has won if he has not shown leadership traits. If he plays lukaku he has favorite, if he doesnt play shaw he doesnt like shaw.
You just can't win when 3/4 of the fans here just hate his guts. Everything he does is wrong in your eyes. Even when shaw himself acknowledge jose work with him you guys rather believe that he's being blackmailed to say that or he wont get game time.
This is absurd. No manager would won what he has won if he has not shown leadership traits. If he plays lukaku he has favorite, if he doesnt play shaw he doesnt like shaw.
You just can't win when 3/4 of the fans here just hate his guts. Everything he does is wrong in your eyes. Even when shaw himself acknowledge jose work with him you guys rather believe that he's being blackmailed to say that or he wont get game time.