That is entirely possible. But the move as such still makes sense. He will do less damage with a marker on him, that much is clear. And if you have a marker to spare, so to speak, then why not.
Sheep draft SF - kps88 vs Joga Bonito
- Thread starter Balu
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Aye, I've never seen Garrincha be so downplayed/underrated before.
I don't think Burgnich will do much to nullify him by any means, like most defenders he doesn't have the agility or acceleration to keep up with Garrincha when he stands him up and takes him on 1 vs 1.
Sorry can't be around much, some stuff has come up. I still stand by the point RE Burgnich that it's a bit strange he's never played that role in his career before. If he was such a flexible man marker then surely there was a time in his twenty year career when the opposition had a threat on the right worth using him on?
Anyway, I actually preferred Joga's side before the switch. All Burgnich does is ruin the team's balance on the ball without any upside. Garrincha's the last player you want to try and mark out of a game since he'll just repeatedly leave his marker for dead. Actually thought Joga's original point on Brehme influencing things from deep on the left was valid but after the swap he now has Donadoni willfully tracking back.
Anyway, I actually preferred Joga's side before the switch. All Burgnich does is ruin the team's balance on the ball without any upside. Garrincha's the last player you want to try and mark out of a game since he'll just repeatedly leave his marker for dead. Actually thought Joga's original point on Brehme influencing things from deep on the left was valid but after the swap he now has Donadoni willfully tracking back.
Putting a marker on a player doesn't amount to claiming said player will be nullified.
Garrincha is neither possible to completely nullify nor completely impossible to mark. There's a middle ground.
What is Burgnich's normal/expected level of, say, constructive contribution in any given match? To what extent is he a pure defender? What do you lose/gain from giving him this assignment?
These are the questions people should be asking.
Garrincha is neither possible to completely nullify nor completely impossible to mark. There's a middle ground.
What is Burgnich's normal/expected level of, say, constructive contribution in any given match? To what extent is he a pure defender? What do you lose/gain from giving him this assignment?
These are the questions people should be asking.
You could say Gentile played the Burgnich role at the World Cup 1982, which maybe puts it a bit into perspective. Burgnich wasn't a rightback or centerback like we have them today, he was a fantastic defender and mostly used as a man-marker before teams played zonal marking. He was used all over the pitch for marking jobs because he offered nothing going forward on the right anyway. You stick him on the best attacker in the other team to try and limit the danger as much as possible. Obviously saying he'd nullify Garrincha is over the top, just like for example Gentile didn't nullify Zico in '82. But in Joga's case, it makes a lot of sense. It puts the better defender on Garrincha and frees up Brehme to attack. It's always an advantage if you have versatile players like that in your team.
I don't think it's fair to assume Brehme would easily reach his best level on the other wing though, it's not that easy to switch. But then, I'd say Donadoni's best position was on the right as well, so kps has the same problem. At least Littbarski and Czibor are playing in their best position now. I understood why Joga wanted it the other way round in the beginning but didn't like it. Was Czibor really comfortable on the right? If I remember correctly, he didn't like that he was moved to the right for the World Cup final in '54. So yeah, overall Joga has finally found his best formation for this game in my opinion.
I don't think it's fair to assume Brehme would easily reach his best level on the other wing though, it's not that easy to switch. But then, I'd say Donadoni's best position was on the right as well, so kps has the same problem. At least Littbarski and Czibor are playing in their best position now. I understood why Joga wanted it the other way round in the beginning but didn't like it. Was Czibor really comfortable on the right? If I remember correctly, he didn't like that he was moved to the right for the World Cup final in '54. So yeah, overall Joga has finally found his best formation for this game in my opinion.
I don't see the problem myself. It's obvious the Real Madrid version of Puskas, not the younger, more mobile Honved/Hungary one. Yeah, Müller probably edges it, but there's not much in it. I would prefer a different set-up for Puskas, so that he could shine more. But then, at this stage in the draft, after everyone added 4 more superstars, it's not that bad to use him like that.
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Agreed. Its always a bastard deciding who to vote for between two such brilliant teams, but Joga has played his hand excellently here. Burgnich on Garrincha is a smart move, and his point about the lack of compatibility between Platini and Garrincha seems a valid one to me. Puskas as centre forward is far less of a concern though.
Ultimately, I just realy like the balance of Joga's team and he's done his usual fantastic job with the player write ups. This point is far more gut feeling than logical argument, but I fancy his midfield to have the edge over KPS's.
Reckon so too. Plus, like @Balu says above, it's not a matter of putting anyone blindly on Garrincha, just for good measure, it's a matter of using a specialist for a special assignment.
So Laudrup is finally on, less than 2 hours to go.
Time to go on the front foot and unleash the Great Dane. Laudrup on for Donadoni. Redondo-Tigana-Laudrup-Platini keep the ball for fun, while Garrincha, Puskas and Platini himself provide the lethal cutting edge.
Just want to emphasize the sheer goal threat offered by Platini and Puskas alone - Platini scored 224 goals in 432 club games, along with 41 in 72 for France. And ahead of him is Puskas' scary good 508 goals in 521 club games, along with 84 in 85 for Hungary. Those two alone have scored more goals than Joga's entire team combined.
With Redondo-Tigana behind them and Laudrup-Garrincha on either side, there's a guarantee of goals and too many threats on the pitch for Joga to handle. Each of the front four are capable of deciding the game on their own and I don't see how you can contain them all.
Just want to emphasize the sheer goal threat offered by Platini and Puskas alone - Platini scored 224 goals in 432 club games, along with 41 in 72 for France. And ahead of him is Puskas' scary good 508 goals in 521 club games, along with 84 in 85 for Hungary. Those two alone have scored more goals than Joga's entire team combined.
With Redondo-Tigana behind them and Laudrup-Garrincha on either side, there's a guarantee of goals and too many threats on the pitch for Joga to handle. Each of the front four are capable of deciding the game on their own and I don't see how you can contain them all.
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I don't think anyone on here has ever said Burgnich could shut down Garrincha. Heck I'd expect him to even get past the even the best of LBs and I rate him a top 3 all time greats as stated in the OP. I read a older match here about Maldini vs Garrincha and didn't agree with it all.
However, do not make the mistake of underestimating Burgnich. He was the best pure defender in that Catenaccio Italy and La Grande Inter teams. Picchi was excellent in his own right and so too was Guarneri as well. Can't think of too many better defensive teams than them or teams better versed in the dark arts. I know a few Italian oldies who'd straight up have him in their Italian XIs over Bergomi. Shouldn't really count for anything but he really was one of the best defenders ever, esp in Italian history, which is all the more impressive, given their immense pool of defenders.
He was primarily a man marker who could play along the back line. Facchetti was the marauding WB, with Guarneri, Burgnich being pure man marking defenders and Picchi being the defensive sweeper who swept anything that leaked through or doubled up on any attacker whenever necessary. Burgnich played the same role as what Gentile (great example Balu, slipped my mind) did (more like Gentile playing Burgnich's role) and what Camacho and Vogts did in the examples I've listed previously. It's not like R.Carlos or Cafu are placed on other wings and claimed to be doing an equally brilliant job as FBs. Burgnich is asked to do a man marking job here and nothing is asked of him as a supporting FB. He should be in his element as such.
Good questions Chester.
He never was great on the ball but was decent enough on it. You had to be, to play the defensive sweeper role for Herrera's Inter. They relied on quick transitions, ideally no more than 2-3 passes, and both Suarez and the defensive sweeper (Picchi & Burgnich at times) were key to it. He wasn't as impressive on the ball as the former two but he didn't need to be for the usual role he played for Inter. Decent short passer and that's about it, a limited defensive player and about as pure a defender as you could find. You lose nothing in this role and it's basically the same man marking role he's been asked to play his entire career.
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14-14.
Who to vote for
Who to vote for
Good offensive tactical change and gives my defense more to worry about. A selfless player and a good team player on the ball. Provides much more of a threat than Donadoni but you do lose that graft and wingsmanship that Donadoni offered. Besides, his 2 FBs, his weakest areas are going to get next to no protection here against Czibor and Littbarski.
Keep in mind that Redondo and Tigana will have their hands full in midfield, with 4 passengers ahead of them and won't offer the same cover for the FBs. All stated in the 3rd point of my write up.
I honestly didn't think Donadoni would get the better of Brehme but I always did say he provided the best balance tactically. A good attacking sub but it's not prime Laudrup here and this move, severely enhances the already considerable advantage I had on the flanks. Donadoni was already playing a decent supporting role and I don't quite think a sub was necessary. You don't need another match winner and I can see Laudrup doing a decent supporting job in different aspects on the ball but obviously not as well rounded as Donadoni's role previously.
Not a huge fan of this sub, obviously. Strengthens your attack but it's not a worthy compromise, given the downgrade from a defensive perspective. I'd say the chances of me scoring than you breaching my defense has just got higher.
Keep in mind that Redondo and Tigana will have their hands full in midfield, with 4 passengers ahead of them and won't offer the same cover for the FBs. All stated in the 3rd point of my write up.
I honestly didn't think Donadoni would get the better of Brehme but I always did say he provided the best balance tactically. A good attacking sub but it's not prime Laudrup here and this move, severely enhances the already considerable advantage I had on the flanks. Donadoni was already playing a decent supporting role and I don't quite think a sub was necessary. You don't need another match winner and I can see Laudrup doing a decent supporting job in different aspects on the ball but obviously not as well rounded as Donadoni's role previously.
Not a huge fan of this sub, obviously. Strengthens your attack but it's not a worthy compromise, given the downgrade from a defensive perspective. I'd say the chances of me scoring than you breaching my defense has just got higher.
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I'd agree with that. The chances of hitting him effectively on the counter, down either wing, increase with Donadoni gone (the Littbarski + Brehme combo becomes more dangerous, more likely to cause damage with either trickery or crosses, i.e. Brehme to MVB).
It's obviously a formidable quartet, but Laudrup is not enough of an upgrade here to upset the balance significantly. He will be playing more of a supportive role, which he is more than capable of, but it sort of defeats the purpose.
Or rather, it doesn't defeat the purpose but it means the tradeoff is...dubious. Lose what Donadoni offers and gain not a prime, perfectly placed Laudrup, but rather a Laudrup in a supporting role.
I'm quite confident this team will outscore you. Your best route would be to set up to play on the counter and hope Van Basten nicks a goal. But that would mean giving my front four too much of the ball which would be suicide. How do you plan to stop the front four or take the ball of them? How do you stop Laudrup and Platini with Puskas ahead of them? Not to mention Burgnich would need help on the cover against Garrincha.
You can't expect all 3 of them to play a starring role here. Firstly there's already the compatibility issue of Platini and Garrincha. Laudrup is obviously the most suited player to play the supporting role in that trio. Besides, you aren't playing prime Laudrup here and neither are you playing him in his favoured position or role as the primary creative hub.
Your tactical change hasn't made that much of a significant upgrade offensively as you are making it out to be (despite Michelino Laudrup coming on for Donadoni). I'm just not comparing individuals here but the roles they are playing here. Laudrup will play a more technical, better link-up etc supporting role than Donadoni on the ball but you will heavily miss his runs, graft and wingsmanship here.
It is not the most suitable of sub's if you ask me, given your FBs and their lack of cover. I'd say my defense has a much better chance of keeping your attack out than yours coping with my attack.
Besides, employing sitting overly deep-catenaccio style tactics isn't the only option for my team to succeed here. I have Burgnich-Hierro-Kohler-Davids in pure defensive roles to counter your top heavy set up, with the likes of Brehme, Schuster, Suarez and Czibor all playing balanced roles. That's the tactical beauty of my team. Various players capable of playing balanced and industrious roles given their versatility and tactical nous.
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Barca did it against us when they've put Puyol as a RB in 2008-09's final(I think). Made Cristiano Ronaldo invisible throughout the match and I obviously rate Ronaldo above Puyol.
2 votes down and 20 mins to go.
Simply easier to see how Muller will thrive here while Puskas isn't as classic fit here.
Gentile is certainly the best example of a man-marker deployed across the back-line or into midfield. Where he is more credible is that he did play on the left for parts of his career and could do a half-decent (in a Serie A context rather than in this company) job overlapping. Nonetheless, it was a logical manoeuvre from Joga. As two-footed as Brehme was, and acknowledging that he played there in 1986, I would maintain that peak Brehme - i.e. late 1980s Inter and Italia '90 - controlled games from left wing-back. And Donadoni would do a manful job of tracking him back, Laudrup less so.
The one thing I still questioned about Joga yesterday was Hierro being Brehme's cover and not Kohler. kps88 has just fixed that for me.
I love Laudrup, but Donadoni was better suited to this game. kps has now got incredibly narrow and just betting on winning through sheer star power through the middle without a single one of them having the right platform/company to shine. Looks unrecognisable from the team of previous rounds, which I liked better as a functional team.
Joga instead has Czibor now on the left, one of the best and most dangerous wingers you could want there, and who provides Burgnich (ideal as man-marker, anywhere) support against Garrincha and Sagnol. On the counter, kps gets destroyed there.
Brehme-Littbarski on the right is also a monumental mismatch. I respect what Carboni accomplished throughout his career, but this is taking the biscuit.
Then Davids-Suárez-Schuster has the right blend of steel, playmaking and incisiveness going forward.
And then there's Marco van Basten at the end of that all.
Never mind counters, Joga wins this in normal play as well.
I love Laudrup, but Donadoni was better suited to this game. kps has now got incredibly narrow and just betting on winning through sheer star power through the middle without a single one of them having the right platform/company to shine. Looks unrecognisable from the team of previous rounds, which I liked better as a functional team.
Joga instead has Czibor now on the left, one of the best and most dangerous wingers you could want there, and who provides Burgnich (ideal as man-marker, anywhere) support against Garrincha and Sagnol. On the counter, kps gets destroyed there.
Brehme-Littbarski on the right is also a monumental mismatch. I respect what Carboni accomplished throughout his career, but this is taking the biscuit.
Then Davids-Suárez-Schuster has the right blend of steel, playmaking and incisiveness going forward.
And then there's Marco van Basten at the end of that all.
Never mind counters, Joga wins this in normal play as well.
And why exactly aren't you voting Joga then?
Fundamentally it was Joga's tactical approach that won me over. His midfield has a brilliant mix of crunch and class and Davids is as good a man as any to hound Platini, while Schuster and Suarez as a pair would IMO edge Redondo and Tigana. Not that Platini is easily quelled, but Hierro is expert at the centre-half-cum-defensive-midfielder role and mindset and would be very alive to Platini's threat.
Little wonder that it's so close after 30 votes.
Little wonder that it's so close after 30 votes.
10 mins to go and 1 vote down. Maybe I should tag my ace up my sleeve, anchan and we can all enjoy a good round of penalties then, eh? 
All square!
Squeaky bum time initiated.
And as the game draws to a close, Puskas looks longingly across the pitch at the setup Marco van Basten is operating in, while Platini wonders why he hasn't been given the platform to shine the way Bernd Schuster has.
Pre-injury Schuster would tear this game up with Czibor-Litti either side and Marco to 1-2 with, there's no two ways about it.
Where's Solksjaer when you need him the most 
Penalties it is. Any volunteers around to do the commentary?
PENOS!
Pens! Gimme them sweet, sweet pens now...
Maybe that's shit voting by me, but I just think Platini will do here the feck he wants with Tigana and Redondo behind him. Perfect aid for him to thrive in imo.
I have to admit, I voted before both team's changes, and I might've voted for Joga if they both started like this, but I don't want to change now when it's so close.
I can do it if you want. First timer.
Edit: Nvm.
Good game @kps88 Looking forward to pens
Good game @kps88 Looking forward to pens
Alright, just making sure - if someone kick right, and the keeper goes to the left it's a save? And middle-middle too obviously.
Meanwhile, both keepers are warming up and getting ready for the penalties:
vs
vs
Yes.
penalty shot to the left, goalkeeper jumps right = save
penalty shot to the right, goalkeeper jumps left = save
both central = save
Each manager names 5 players and where they shoot, then the goalkeeper's actions. It should look something like the lists below
Players
1. playername - L,R or C
2. playername - L,R or C
3. playername - L,R or C
4. playername - L,R or C
5. playername - L,R or C
Goalkeeper:
1. L,R or C
2. L,R or C
3. L,R or C
4. L,R or C
5. L,R or C
Joga's penos are sent. Only Kps to send.