Should our wide attackers be doing more defending?

[Brwned]

Don’t forget Cavani. Regularly makes more of an effort to track back and tackle than players a decade younger. Here’s hoping Greenwood et al pay more attention to his defensive diligence than the player who took his shirt number.

Aye I intentionally left him out as I don’t think he should be in the starting 11 ahead of any of those lot, I think I rate him quite a lot lower than most here do. But he really does the work of 2 men just like Bruno, so if you have those both in the team I don’t worry at all about our pressing game.

It might be the case that if we do prove to be ridiculously leaky he kicks Greenwood out of the team for his work rate alone. That could be absolutely key for this teams development, and in general I think Cavani’s character has a big influence in the team - just in the background.

I don’t think it’s the kind of thing you can learn from another player, Cavani’s just a warrior while Greenwood’s very chilled, you don’t tend to change your nature to emulate another individual.

But I do think it’s something that can be instilled as a kind of team dynamic and expectation, if that becomes the only thing holding you back from staying in the team then you do sort of forget about your personal nature and submit, and after a while it becomes infectious.

We’ve definitely seen it a lot in Guardiola teams, and once they move out of that dynamic they go back to their usual nature. It just seems very far away from the kind of approach Ole takes. Sir Alex too.

Agree with you that we generally had hard workers on the wing but he never really moulded players that way, he just picked players with that in them. He demanded a lot from folks but also was very keen on individualism. We’ve probably gone too far in that direction with this team so we’ll be pulling our hair out (Bruno’s guaranteed to go manic at points!) but at least it’ll be fun too!

 

[eire-red]

Salah, Firmino and Mane are probably the standard setters for defending from the front, especially during those two seasons that Liverpool were at their peak.

I'm not too bothered by the lack of tracking and pressing as long as they keep banging in the goals. It's painfully obvious that midfield is the issue.

Can Ole find the balance of getting Pogba central on the ball, having our best attackers on the pitch and having enough defensive steel that McTominay and Fred bring. Seems like an impossible task to me.

Start McTominay and Fred, and no creativity in midfield. Start Pogba with either and we're exposed. I think against the weaker teams it's fine, we'll ride our luck like yesterday, and blast in 4 or 5. Against the top sides, it's likely we'll see Fred and McTominay.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Aye I intentionally left him out as I don’t think he should be in the starting 11 ahead of any of those lot, I think I rate him quite a lot lower than most here do. But he really does the work of 2 men just like Bruno, so if you have those both in the team I don’t worry at all about our pressing game.

It might be the case that if we do prove to be ridiculously leaky he kicks Greenwood out of the team for his work rate alone. That could be absolutely key for this teams development, and in general I think Cavani’s character has a big influence in the team - just in the background.

I don’t think it’s the kind of thing you can learn from another player, Cavani’s just a warrior while Greenwood’s very chilled, you don’t tend to change your nature to emulate another individual.

But I do think it’s something that can be instilled as a kind of team dynamic and expectation, if that becomes the only thing holding you back from staying in the team then you do sort of forget about your personal nature and submit, and after a while it becomes infectious.

We’ve definitely seen it a lot in Guardiola teams, and once they move out of that dynamic they go back to their usual nature. It just seems very far away from the kind of approach Ole takes. Sir Alex too.

Agree with you that we generally had hard workers on the wing but he never really moulded players that way, he just picked players with that in them. He demanded a lot from folks but also was very keen on individualism. We’ve probably gone too far in that direction with this team so we’ll be pulling our hair out (Bruno’s guaranteed to go manic at points!) but at least it’ll be fun too!

Cavani being extra bothered to track all the way back, sometimes even to his penalty box, is not always the best. Admirable and commendable yes, but can get in the way of his main job which is asking questions of the opposition, even when they're the ones in possession.

On the other hand, someone like Ronaldo or Salah not tracking back can often be a source of relieving pressure, as the opposition will be aware of their threat and won't be as aggressive when attacking.

When Mourinho told his attackers to track all the way back all the time, the result was us simply being penned in for significant portions of matches, as every team would have a go at us without too much worry. Contrast that with Ole who gives his attackers more license to stay up. Teams now can't really overload us comfortably, as our threat in tranition is always in the back of their minds.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Not in a system where we have a back 4 and 2 deep lying midfielders!

 

[Dante]

No McFred = No fullback cover

Let the forwards keep doing their thing. The solution is for United to go back to playing a defensive midfield pair. It's what allows Bruno to be a #10 rather than an AM, and what allows Shaw/AWB to push high up the pitch.

United had the second best attack in the PL last season. This season, it's even better. Going forward was never the big problem.

The reason United couldn't mount a serious challenge last season was because of goals conceded - particularly on set pieces and due to AWB getting caught out of position. Varane coming in at RCB should be a positive step in both of those regards. But Pogba and/or Matic in midfield undoes some of it.

Next summer should be about buying midfielder in a similar mould to McTominay and Fred, but better on the ball.

 

[Dante]

Not in a system where we have a back 4 and 2 deep lying midfielders!

It's more like 2 attacking fullbacks, 2 ball carrying centrebacks and 2 covering deep lying midfielders.

 

[Brwned]

Cavani being extra bothered to track all the way back, sometimes even to his penalty box, is not always the best. Admirable and commendable yes, but can get in the way of his main job which is asking questions of the opposition, even when they're the ones in possession.

On the other hand, someone like Ronaldo or Salah not tracking back can often be a source of relieving pressure, as the opposition will be aware of their threat and won't be as aggressive when attacking.

When Mourinho told his attackers to track all the way back all the time, the result was us simply being penned in for significant portions of matches, as every team would have a go at us without too much worry. Contrast that with Ole who gives his attackers more license to stay up. Teams now can't really overload us comfortably, as our threat in tranition is always in the back of their minds.

Oh yeah Cavani can go a bit overboard, in the same way some way Rooney did. It tires them out, drags them out of position, all that. As always it’s about balance which is mostly what the thread’s about. Salah stays high up and threatens on the break but he also presses high and disrupts their build up. Our counter attacking threat might limit the number of players they push forward, but it doesn’t do much to disrupt the build up, and there’s a few examples already showing that if the opposition can cut through us with just a few players timing their runs well. We won’t be able to play consistently high up the pitch without figuring out a way to better neutralise that threat. It’s not an unsolvable problem but definitely something to work on I’d say.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

The lack of tracking back from the front three is only forgivable if they press effectively but ours can't do that either.

The only comparable side at the top level in Europe (in terms of shite work rate in the front three) is PSG. My guess is that they won't win the CL this year despite having the best side on paper because of their defensive lethargy.

Also for those who are giving Sancho the benefit of the doubt because he's new, his defensive stats (presses per 90 etc) were appalling for Dortmund last year.

 

[Borys]

Salah, Firmino and Mane are probably the standard setters for defending from the front, especially during those two seasons that Liverpool were at their peak.

I'm not too bothered by the lack of tracking and pressing as long as they keep banging in the goals. It's painfully obvious that midfield is the issue.

Can Ole find the balance of getting Pogba central on the ball, having our best attackers on the pitch and having enough defensive steel that McTominay and Fred bring. Seems like an impossible task to me.

Start McTominay and Fred, and no creativity in midfield. Start Pogba with either and we're exposed. I think against the weaker teams it's fine, we'll ride our luck like yesterday, and blast in 4 or 5. Against the top sides, it's likely we'll see Fred and McTominay.

Or midfield is the issue because the front 4 is not supporting them enough? City have an amazing record of number of conceded shots against, that's not because their midfield being so good defensively, but because the whole team is putting an effort in a very well drilled system.
Fred gets the blame for not being good enough defensively, quite often playing one man midfield. To me it's like blaming Varane for yesterday goal. I mean he could've prevented it, but nobody expected him to deal with 2 players. But somehow we expect our midfield to deal with 3,4 players coming at them.

 

[EtH]

Or midfield is the issue because the front 4 is not supporting them enough? City have an amazing record of number of conceded shots against, that's not because their midfield being so good defensively, but because the whole team is putting an effort in a very well drilled system.
Fred gets the blame for not being good enough defensively, quite often playing one man midfield. To me it's like blaming Varane for yesterday goal. I mean he could've prevented it, but nobody expected him to deal with 2 players. But somehow we expect our midfield to deal with 3,4 players coming at them.

If teams were breaking straight through the heart of Liverpool’s midfield in transition it wouldn’t matter what the front three were doing defensively. But Fabinho doesn’t allow that because he has the mobility and tactical discipline to shield the defense.

 

[Borys]

If teams were breaking straight through the heart of Liverpool’s midfield in transition it wouldn’t matter what the front three were doing defensively. But Fabinho doesn’t allow that because he has the mobility and tactical discipline to shield the defense.

Of course it would matter, especially with player like Fabinho (true DM), because it allows him to position himself to protect the back 4 instead of running around plugging holes because there's nobody tracking back.
Plus, Fabinho has two true midfielders supporting him what makes a huge difference to what we do in 4-2-4 setup.

 

[EtH]

Of course it would matter, especially with player like Fabinho (true DM), because it allows him to position himself to protect the back 4 instead of running around plugging holes because there's nobody tracking back.
Plus, Fabinho has two true midfielders supporting him what makes a huge difference to what we do in 4-2-4 setup.

It’s a pointless comparison as we don’t set up or press as a team as Liverpool do. My point was that even despite the fact that Matic was stood in the middle of the pitch ASM and company just ran past him as if he wasn’t there yesterday.

If you can’t at least slow counters breaking through the middle of the park your defense will be under duress whether the front three is tracking back or not.

 

[Strelok]

I genuinely wonder how many goals we'd be able to score if we played a park the bus, hit them on the break tactic with this talented forward lineup.

You simply can't counter if they don't attack you with number. Like the match against Newcastle, they attack us with 2-3 players and keep the rest home. You can't really counter with their entire defense and midfield still there.

So aside from the top 4 and probably Leeds imo it'll be like the old Jose days where both teams trying to have the least possession possible while pumping long balls forward for the sake of it. Gonna be a terrible shitshow with no goal I'm afraid.

 

[Borys]

It’s a pointless comparison as we don’t set up or press as a team as Liverpool do. My point was that even despite the fact that Matic was stood in the middle of the pitch ASM and company just ran past him as if he wasn’t there yesterday.

If you can’t at least slow counters breaking through the middle of the park your defense will be under duress whether the front three is tracking back or not.

But you brought it up first?

DMs like Matic and Fabinho need support. I can guarantee you, Fabinho alone wouldn't solve our issues.

 

[Matt851]

Liverpool and citys forward players are much better at pressing but i put that down to their respective coaches placing a greater emphasis on this than the players themselves

 

[EtH]

But you brought it up first?

DMs like Matic and Fabinho need support. I can guarantee you, Fabinho alone wouldn't solve our issues.

Ah I think I quoted the wrong post as you were discussing City. My fault.

Either way while I agree a capable DM like Fabinho or Rice wouldn’t solve all our issues, it would go a long way as we literally don’t have one capable holding midfielder in the squad. Even more of an onus on this issue when we play Pogba in CM.

 

[Mickeza]

I genuinely wonder how many goals we'd be able to score if we played a park the bus, hit them on the break tactic with this talented forward lineup.

Teams won’t let us play like that. Even Pep went more defensive against us. Give this team space and it will destroy you. Transitions after winning the ball is the best chance we have which is why Fred is so important - he’s great at winning the ball.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Random question. Can anyone remember Rashford, Martial or Greenwood ever sprinting back and making a tackle in our defensive third? (too small a sample size to judge Sancho) I can’t think of any and that seems weird/wrong to me.

I remember Rashford working his bollocks off at one stage. It was pressing up top rather than tracking back but I have some vague memory of being delighted with him for charging around like a man possessed at the tail end of a match against Chelsea if I remember correctly.

His defensive work rate has clearly fallen off a cliff since then and I hope it's only because if his injury problems.

Someone posted the stats lately of pressures per 90 minutes by our attackers and it made for grim reading. There's more than one way to play the game and we don't necessarily need an entire team of pressing monsters, but I don't think we can accommodate multiple defensive passengers either.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

The lack of tracking back from the front three is only forgivable if they press effectively but ours can't do that either.

The only comparable side at the top level in Europe (in terms of shite work rate in the front three) is PSG. My guess is that they won't win the CL this year despite having the best side on paper because of their defensive lethargy.

Also for those who are giving Sancho the benefit of the doubt because he's new, his defensive stats (presses per 90 etc) were appalling for Dortmund last year.

I genuinely hate to be negative here given the general strength of our squad but there's a strong element of truth here and it could very well come back to haunt us. One positive is that Greenwood's work rate seems to have significantly improved after the nadir of early last season - pretty sure the stats in that 'pressures per 90 minutes' that I referenced earlier had him well above Rashford and Martial. If Rashford comes back from injury in condition to work harder off the ball then things look much healthier in that regard.

 

[CG1010]

I am fairly sure the lack of tracking back from the wide attackers is part of the tactics. They are meant to be the avenue to start counter attacks. This is one reason last season we played with 2 workhorses in the CM. And we did quite well in defensive terms (conceded very few goals from open play). One exception was the Tottenham 6-1 game where Jose publically claimed to have exploited this weakness. But now this season, we have been playing more aggressive midfield. Which means somehow we need to achieve our defensive stability again. Not sure what Ole's got in mind but at the moment it makes for very entertaining viewing.

 

[owlo]

If we have 2 central DMs often the usual method is for one of those to track wide to assist the fullbacks as the ball moves wide. The other DCM slides more central. The whole team slides laterally depending on where the attack is coming from.
I like letting attacking players be free to attack. I remember SAF talking about not wanting Ronnie to drop back to help defend during Ronnies first stint with us.

One problem yesterday was the fact Pogba cant tackle to save his life, his defending angles leave him being turned frequently so having him in beside Matic caused problems. Im a huge Pogba fan but defending is not one of his strong points

Let’s be honest; the problem is having Bruno and Pogba as 2 of a midfield 3. Always is was and will be. If we don’t want to be so open we simply replace Bruno with a midfielder given his average position is almost the same as Ronaldos.

Theres no “work rate” fix to this. It simply doesn’t work and the manager trying to make it so is like a worse version of the gerrard lampard experiment.