Signing creative players

Red Pavan

shittest username ever manutddabest791
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I don't really create threads in the transfer forum but i think this is a necessity as there isn't a single player in the team that can unlock a defence in the final thread with guile and intelligence.

Players such as Martial, Rashford and even Depay will infinitely benefit from a player who is able to create space and play the defence splitting pass.

Who would be the suitable and available options? Only Isco comes to mind.
 
Isco, James, Götze all are said to be unsettled at the moment
 
Mainoldo said:
Lack Pass! No more bloody Juan Mata's.
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What about Griezmann or even Barkley? If Mourinho is our next manager, he could be interested in those players.

Also, Ibrahimovic could be a good option even if he lacks of pace.
 
While I agree with the sentiment of the OP, that we could do with upgrading our playmakers from Herrera, Mata, Rooney etc to players of the quality of Isco, we have bigger, more basic issues to resolve with regards to creativity IMO.

Liverpool are looking a pretty creative team these days, for example. Why is that? They have Coutinho who is very good, and Firminho appears quite good, but the rest of the squad is not particularly littered with creativity. The thing they have started to get right, is that they are creating and attacking as a team. They're not completely reliant on individuals performing an isolated moment of individual class all the time. Do they rely on it sometimes? Of course they do. Coutinho ripping Varela apart yesterday was an individual moment of class. But as a team, they create, using intelligence, cohesiveness and fluidity when on the ball.

What we do, as opposed to that, is give the ball to a few selected players who are deemed to "have skill" and hope they do something interesting.

There's a fundamental difference, whether intended or not. It makes our creativity a much bigger effort and demands a lot more out of our creative talents.

Spurs are an even better example for the OP (and others). Who in their team has a huge deal of guile and creativity? I mean, Lamela has a bit of it but is by no means top class. Eriksson is quite good. Deli Ali? Kane? They're no Isco level players either. But they create plenty of chances through being a good TEAM.

So the crucial step is to make yourself a proper team that is capable of attacking as a cohesive unit, and then adding worldie talents will only further elevate you. But continue being disjoint and you'll have to spend 200 million to achieve what 75 million could have.
 
Fer said:
What about Griezmann or even Barkley? If Mourinho is our next manager, he could be interested in those players.

Also, Ibrahimovic could be a good option even if he lacks of pace.
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I think pace is overrated. There aren't many great passers who are speed demons, you just need a player who releases the ball quickly to the quick guys up front.
Ozil isn't that quick but his creativity is incredible because when he sees a pass, he doesn't hesitate to attempt it.
 
Hehe. Was about to bump one of the 'summer signing' threads mentioning how quite a few feel/felt the squad doesn't need a player like Isco because he's 'too similar to Mata' etc.

Isco would have tried that dribble Coutinho made for the goal. He probably would've cut it back at the byline, but he'd have tried the dribble. And you'd back him to have made a success of that dribble.
Nothing like Mata at all, who would never attempt to beat a man like that. Isco would make a huge difference.

As for creative players in general: Coutinho isn't consistent, but you can see what having a player who can dribble past people, use his body, show quick feet, turn on a sixpence... gives to a team. And there aren't enough of those players in this United squad.

Martial is pretty much where it begins and ends.

The squad needs more players with quick thinking who also have the quick feet to match. Too many have one or the other, and most of the rest have neither.
 
Speak said:
Hehe. Was about to bump one of the 'summer signing' threads mentioning how quite a few feel/felt the squad doesn't need a player like Isco because he's 'too similar to Mata' etc.

Isco would have tried that dribble Coutinho made for the goal. He probably would've cut it back at the byline, but he'd have tried the dribble. And you'd back him to have made a success of that dribble.
Nothing like Mata at all, who would never attempt to beat a man like that. Isco would make a huge difference.

As for creative players in general: Coutinho isn't consistent, but you can see what having a player who can dribble past people, use his body, show quick feet, turn on a sixpence... gives to a team. And there aren't enough of those players in this United squad.

Martial is pretty much where it begins and ends.

The squad needs more players with quick thinking who also have the quick feet to match. Too many have one or the other, and most of the rest have neither.
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what a load of dribble ;)
 
Speak said:
Isco would have tried that dribble Coutinho made for the goal. He probably would've cut it back at the byline, but he'd have tried the dribble. And you'd back him to have made a success of that dribble.
Nothing like Mata at all, who would never attempt to beat a man like that. Isco would make a huge difference.
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Definitely. Isco is a completely different player to Mata and miles more gifted on the ball. He's like a much better version of Coutinho, who works harder but scores less worldies.
 
Isco would have set up more chances for us to miss.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Definitely. Isco is a completely different player to Mata and miles more gifted on the ball. He's like a much better version of Coutinho, who works harder but scores less worldies.
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And with less base ability
 
Creativity in the sense that we need more players who can beat players as well as put in the final ball/score goals in tight games where we are struggling to break down the opposition.

Our two biggest stars who are meant to provide that are Mata and Rooney which says it all about the quality in this team. We are fecking shite..
 
amolbhatia50k said:
While I agree with the sentiment of the OP, that we could do with upgrading our playmakers from Herrera, Mata, Rooney etc to players of the quality of Isco, we have bigger, more basic issues to resolve with regards to creativity IMO.

Liverpool are looking a pretty creative team these days, for example. Why is that? They have Coutinho who is very good, and Firminho appears quite good, but the rest of the squad is not particularly littered with creativity. The thing they have started to get right, is that they are creating and attacking as a team. They're not completely reliant on individuals performing an isolated moment of individual class all the time. Do they rely on it sometimes? Of course they do. Coutinho ripping Varela apart yesterday was an individual moment of class. But as a team, they create, using intelligence, cohesiveness and fluidity when on the ball.

What we do, as opposed to that, is give the ball to a few selected players who are deemed to "have skill" and hope they do something interesting.

There's a fundamental difference, whether intended or not. It makes our creativity a much bigger effort and demands a lot more out of our creative talents.

Spurs are an even better example for the OP (and others). Who in their team has a huge deal of guile and creativity? I mean, Lamela has a bit of it but is by no means top class. Eriksson is quite good. Deli Ali? Kane? They're no Isco level players either. But they create plenty of chances through being a good TEAM.

So the crucial step is to make yourself a proper team that is capable of attacking as a cohesive unit, and then adding worldie talents will only further elevate you. But continue being disjoint and you'll have to spend 200 million to achieve what 75 million could have.
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That's a very fair analysis. People have always championed the notion that LVG and Man Utd lack a Rivaldo, Figo, Robben, Ribbery type so it's unfair to criticise the manager as he hasn't got the players (Keano is a big advocate). Last time I checked, none of the top 2 have players of that quality and neither do West Ham. It's as if Man United need to spend another 300 million and litter the side with world class talent before we can compete in the premier league, which is frankly ludicrous when considering who are the current leaders. Basically what it shows me is in a normal system, you can create chances by attacking as a team with more freedom as you mentioned. In Van Gaal's method, the onus is on the extremely talented attackers to do all the damage and they have to be that, extremely talented as they must produce those "isolated moments of individual class" all the time. We scored 86 league goals with Valencia and Welbeck on the wings for Christ's sake. Football doesn't need to be soo complicated.
 
Isco, Rodriguez, Koke, Gotze, Meyer, Barkley
Not that we will sign any of them because they don't track back enough for Jose... LVG will be happy with Rooney / Mata and Giggs would probably just give Adnan a chance
 
Stacks said:
That's a very fair analysis. People have always championed the notion that LVG and Man Utd lack a Rivaldo, Figo, Robben, Ribbery type so it's unfair to criticise the manager as he hasn't got the players (Keano is a big advocate). Last time I checked, none of the top 2 have players of that quality and neither do West Ham. It's as if Man United need to spend another 300 million and litter the side with world class talent before we can compete in the premier league, which is frankly ludicrous when considering who are the current leaders. Basically what it shows me is in a normal system, you can create chances by attacking as a team with more freedom as you mentioned. In Van Gaal's method, the onus is on the extremely talented attackers to do all the damage and they have to be that, extremely talented as they must produce those "isolated moments of individual class" all the time. We scored 86 league goals with Valencia and Welbeck on the wings for Christ's sake. Football doesn't need to be soo complicated.
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No I don't think people believe
it's world class players or nothing. Most aren't clamouring for the very best but recognise there's a big gap between Lingard and Robben.
 
sun_tzu said:
Isco, Rodriguez, Koke, Gotze, Meyer, Barkley
Not that we will sign any of them because they don't track back enough for Jose... LVG will be happy with Rooney / Mata and Giggs would probably just give Adnan a chance
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Isco, Koke, Meyer and Barkley track back. As for Mourinho at Madrid his front 4 wasn't the most disciplined and defensive around.
 
Dobbs said:
No I don't think people believe
it's world class players or nothing. Most aren't clamouring for the very best but recognise there's a big gap between Lingard and Robben.
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Then why did we sell our wide players and not sign a RW considering that Mata is naturally a no.10 and is perhaps a 6/10 winger?
 
Fast and creative players would be a nice mix. No need to add more slouches to the team. Dybala and Ousmane Dembelé are looking like the real deal. The right blend of pace, technique, creativity and goal threat. Bring in those two lads in the summer and our attack will look quite different imo.
 
Stacks said:
Then why did we sell our wide players and not sign a RW considering that Mata is naturally a no.10 and is perhaps a 6/10 winger?
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Obviously a bad decision but what's that got to do with your original point that I replied to?
 
amolbhatia50k said:
:lol: sorry I don't. But I'm guessing a Liverpool fan said that.
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fishfingers15 said:
"I think Coutinho probably has a better base ability than Iniesta. He's got the same close control and vision; but he is probably a better scorer and has more speed. However, what disadvantages him greatly is the tactical side of the game. Had Coutinho came through learning the game through the Barca system or started to be imbedded in Pep's revolutionary Barca he too would have turned into a better player and I think would have been even more special than what many think he can be now.

You look at Iniesta now and while still a top player is not really in the same hemisphere as what he was before. Under Enrique the team divides the passing of the ball much more. Iniesta is neither a defensive/high-workrate player nor does he affect a lot of goals. He needs a lot of the ball to dictate the game and open it up for his teammates. In this Barca, I probably wouldn't be surprised if Coutinho excelled more. Frankly, Rakitic is outshining Iniesta since his arrival and he's of a more similar base to Coutinho going forward."

:lol:
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amolbhatia50k said:
While I agree with the sentiment of the OP, that we could do with upgrading our playmakers from Herrera, Mata, Rooney etc to players of the quality of Isco, we have bigger, more basic issues to resolve with regards to creativity IMO.

Liverpool are looking a pretty creative team these days, for example. Why is that? They have Coutinho who is very good, and Firminho appears quite good, but the rest of the squad is not particularly littered with creativity. The thing they have started to get right, is that they are creating and attacking as a team. They're not completely reliant on individuals performing an isolated moment of individual class all the time. Do they rely on it sometimes? Of course they do. Coutinho ripping Varela apart yesterday was an individual moment of class. But as a team, they create, using intelligence, cohesiveness and fluidity when on the ball.

What we do, as opposed to that, is give the ball to a few selected players who are deemed to "have skill" and hope they do something interesting.

There's a fundamental difference, whether intended or not. It makes our creativity a much bigger effort and demands a lot more out of our creative talents.

Spurs are an even better example for the OP (and others). Who in their team has a huge deal of guile and creativity? I mean, Lamela has a bit of it but is by no means top class. Eriksson is quite good. Deli Ali? Kane? They're no Isco level players either. But they create plenty of chances through being a good TEAM.

So the crucial step is to make yourself a proper team that is capable of attacking as a cohesive unit, and then adding worldie talents will only further elevate you. But continue being disjoint and you'll have to spend 200 million to achieve what 75 million could have.
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Very good post. I didn't even need to read it all.

I'll point to our only successful period under van Gaal (the infamous 6 game period, last season) to illustrate that individual talent isn't the only ingredient to a good team.

I've said it time and time again, we don't seem like we know how to play football.
 
We're not short of players who can create things for others, we're short of players with the instincts to benefit from that creation and make opportunities for themselevs out of nothing.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
Very good post. I didn't even need to read it all.

I'll point to our only successful period under van Gaal (the infamous 6 game period, last season) to illustrate that individual talent isn't the only ingredient to a good team.

I've said it time and time again, we don't seem like we know how to play football.
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Cheers. Bolded bit is true, and a clear sign of a team that is not being managed well. Martial aside, we put in twice the amount of effort as other teams to create half as good chances.

Pexbo said:
We're not short of players who can create things for others, we're short of players with the instincts to benefit from that creation and make opportunities for themselevs out of nothing.
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Agree. But what also begs questioning, is whether we should look so clueless without them because if the answer is no, then we may not make as good use of the ones we acquire either.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Agree. But what also begs questioning, is whether we should look so clueless without them because if the answer is no, then we may not make as good use of the ones we acquire either.
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I can't remember who it was but they made a great point which I think emphasises this argument; That the likes of Pedro and Di Maria benefited heavily from playing with the likes of Messi and Ronaldo.

Pedro had 44 assists since 2009 and 25 of those were for Messi while Di Maria had 62 Assists for Real Madrid with 22 of them being for Ronaldo.


I can't find the Di Maria to Zlatan assist rate but I'm positive it's equally as high, just as I'm sure Pastore benefitted hugely statistically by playing with Zlatan last season.
 
Pexbo said:
I can't remember who it was but they made a great point which I think emphasises this argument; That the likes of Pedro and Di Maria benefited heavily from playing with the likes of Messi and Ronaldo.

Pedro had 44 assists since 2009 and 25 of those were for Messi while Di Maria had 62 Assists for Real Madrid with 22 of them being for Ronaldo.


I can't find the Di Maria to Zlatan assist rate but I'm positive it's equally as high, just as I'm sure Pastore benefitted hugely statistically by playing with Zlatan last season.
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Rooney is as good a finisher as Zlatan though. Why not the Rooney Di Maria relationship?
 
Stacks said:
Rooney is as good a finisher as Zlatan though. Why not the Rooney Di Maria relationship?
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No he isn't. Not if you count the technical aspect that comes before the shot; movement and touch. And Zlatan's shooting itself is a level above Wayne's.
 
Pexbo said:
No he isn't. Not if you count the technical aspect that comes before the shot; movement and touch. And Zlatan's shooting itself is a level above Wayne's.
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finishing just means ability to take the chance. Touch and movement not necessary here. Zlatan conversion is most probably in the same bracket 25-30% as Rooney's. His long shot is better though.
 
Stacks said:
finishing just means ability to take the chance. Touch and movement not necessary here. Zlatan conversion is most probably in the same bracket 25-30% as Rooney's. His long shot is better though.
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Very few assists are pin point perfection where all the attacker has to do it strike it correctly into the back of the net.

Most assist are just passes or crosses played into a roughly correct area which the attacker then has to do something with to give himself chance to shoot. That could be a good first touch, a good movement or both as he holds off the defender. So to be a good finisher which literally means "finishing off an attack" means more than just shooting ability. You need to be able to do something that gives you a better chance of getting a good shot away.


Look at van Nistelrooy, he wasn't a great finisher just because of how he stuck the ball in the back of the net, he was a great finisher because he was always in the right place and had this incredible knack of teeing up a shot for himself even in the most impossible positions.
 
Pexbo said:
Very few assists are pin point perfection where all the attacker has to do it strike it correctly into the back of the net.

Most assist are just passes or crosses played into a roughly correct area which the attacker then has to do something with to give himself chance to shoot. That could be a good first touch, a good movement or both as he holds off the defender. So to be a good finisher which literally means "finishing off an attack" means more than just shooting ability. You need to be able to do something that gives you a better chance of getting a good shot away.


Look at van Nistelrooy, he wasn't a great finisher just because of how he stuck the ball in the back of the net, he was a great finisher because he was always in the right place and had this incredible knack of teeing up a shot for himself even in the most impossible positions.
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I disagree. When someone says "he's a clinical finisher," it's in relation to his ability to stick away chances. In England that is anyway
 
Stacks said:
I disagree. When someone says "he's a clinical finisher," it's in relation to his ability to stick away chances. In England that is anyway
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Then you don't disagree.
 
We need a creative CM anyway. Someone that will link the play which is what we don't have atm (Apart from an untested Pereira)
I think Schneiderlin will be our CDM next year and should be better which means that we need a CM to play in front of him. Who do people feel would suit this position?

Gundogan? Kroos? Neves? Saul Niguez? Tielemans?
 
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