So Jose Was Right?

Olecurls99

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Well, where we are now is thanks to Ole. The standards were higher when we hired him. We didn't like 2nd place finish or the Micky mouse cups we won. 3 years after Ole managed us and we are now happy with "top 4 and semi finals".
Standards dropped according with the teams performances ever since Fergie left. We have averaged 4th since 2013. That's who we are. You can blame it all Ole if you want but it goes way beyond him. He inherited a mess too if you don't remember.
 

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You hire manager like Jose and backroom staff like Liverpool, they will be a mess. Hire Klopp and keep same team, our team looks competent.

Manager is the biggest difference maker ofcourse with good players. You can't have Titus Bramble and expect him to play as Vidic.
Yes it looks competent but would it be? 5 months in and stories would come out about how the dressing room is in unrest while Klopp can't fix the defense just like he could not at the start with Liverpool, and the ones above the manager will do what? Back the players like they have done with Mourinho. And that's my point. Klopp is miles better manager than Mourinho at this moment, but Mourinho's time here should have taught us something it did not.
 

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Mourinho had veto, like all our managers.

But even ignoring Fred that is still a disgraceful list.
Mourinho is the manager who obviously had some say or said yes at the end, but paying over the odds is not the managers fault. A year later some idiot decided that Maguire is worth 80m pounds, incompetent twats paid more that the release clause for Fellaini, and so many others. The problem is bigger.
 

roonster09

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Yes it looks competent but would it be? 5 months in and stories would come out about how the dressing room is in unrest while Klopp can't fix the defense just like he could not at the start with Liverpool, and the ones above the manager will do what? Back the players like they have done with Mourinho. And that's my point. Klopp is miles better manager than Mourinho at this moment, but Mourinho's time here should have taught us something it did not.
Any management will always back players when the manager isn't good or when the whole dressing room wants him gone. It isn't coincidence that we never hear the stories of Klopp, Pep losing dressing room but with Jose at every club we hear the same stories. Chelsea part 1, Chelsea part 2, Madrid and ManUtd. He spends more than 2 seasons you hear all the stories.

Klopp and Pep makes it easy for management as players are always with them except 1 or 2 which is easy to replace.
 

Tavern in the town

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Yes it looks competent but would it be? 5 months in and stories would come out about how the dressing room is in unrest while Klopp can't fix the defense just like he could not at the start with Liverpool, and the ones above the manager will do what? Back the players like they have done with Mourinho. And that's my point. Klopp is miles better manager than Mourinho at this moment, but Mourinho's time here should have taught us something it did not.
I doubt those stories would have come out. Mourinho isn’t the type of manager to really connect with modern footballers, whereas it’s clear Klopp has players willing to run through walls for him. Klopp’s man management would have made a world of difference.
 

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Half the people on Red Cafe were right about Pogba but it doesn’t make them good football managers.
This is pretty much it. Yes Jose could see the blaggers like half of us, and whilst backing the manager over players is ultimately the route to success (especially long term consistent success), you have to discern whether you have a manager worth backing.

A side from Moyes we backed all our managers to a huge degree, and their player identification generally let us down. Imagine the state of our finances if we'd allowed LVG or Jose another couple of windows with blank cheques.
 

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It was obvious that Jose was right at the the time, half of the forum repeated this over and over every week, whilst the other half predictably were results-orientated and shouted for him to be sacked.

However, whilst I was a Jose-advocate and believe he nailed many of the issues we had/have at the club, I still don't think he went about addressing them in the right manner.

In any job, being able to 'manage up' is just as important, if not more important, than being able to 'manage down'. Go into work on Monday and start ranting about how sh*t all your colleagues are, how lazy your suppliers are publicly criticise the company on social media and to customers...see how long you last.

Alternatively, you can make the same observations and work towards implementing change in a more positive, structured and controlled manner and I am sure before long your influence and ideas will start to show. This is ultimately what really brilliant 'managers' do. People don't just want to hear negativity - highlight a problem, sure, but present a solution with it.
 

romufc

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Why do people only look at things black and white.

In Hindsight Jose was right on certain aspects. So we are here saying Jose was right about X,Y,Z but that does not mean he was right in the way he way around things.

No manager gets his way, Pep didnt get Kane but he didnt throw a strop.

Secondly, Pep was right but at the time we all were like Perisic, no way and our fan base forgets that he wanted to replace Shaw with Rose.

Lets not forget he wanted Maguire too.
 

Lemoor

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Mourinho is the manager who obviously had some say or said yes at the end, but paying over the odds is not the managers fault. A year later some idiot decided that Maguire is worth 80m pounds, incompetent twats paid more that the release clause for Fellaini, and so many others. The problem is bigger.
In the big picture Glazers and Woodward did so much damage to the club that Mourinho doesn't even come close, obviously. But with Mourinho I don't think there was ever a scenario in which good decisions could have been made. You either overpay for the specific players he wants and ruin the wage structure or he starts moaning that he wasn't backed. There is no real third option.
 

el3mel

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Standards dropped according with the teams performances ever since Fergie left. We have averaged 4th since 2013. That's who we are. You can blame it all Ole if you want but it goes way beyond him. He inherited a mess too if you don't remember.
He inherited a side who finished 2nd the previous season with 81 points and reaches 3 finals in 2 years winning 2 of them, ended up with worse points tally, no trophies and a couple of semi finals loss and one final defeat. Also left the team in need of a rebuild with a lot of awful signings and multiple short term ones. If he inherited a mess, he sure left a bigger one behind him.
 

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I doubt those stories would have come out. Mourinho isn’t the type of manager to really connect with modern footballers, whereas it’s clear Klopp has players willing to run through walls for him. Klopp’s man management would have made a world of difference.
Mourinho is a stubborn arsehole but a double CL winning manager and proven winner, I think he can connect with modern footballers but I do think that he can not motivate nowadays footballers like Klopp can. Klopp's man management would have made a difference but I think you are expecting wonders. Klopp changed the majority of his Liverpool squad before winning anything.
 

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In the big picture Glazers and Woodward did so much damage to the club that Mourinho doesn't even come close, obviously. But with Mourinho I don't think there was ever a scenario in which good decisions could have been made. You either overpay for the specific players he wants and ruin the wage structure or he starts moaning that he wasn't backed. There is no real third option.
The club should structure and be run in a right way in order for a manager to know his place. As I mentioned Spurs bought Hojbjerg for 15m pounds, if United came knocking Sotton would have rinsed us for 40m pounds, you know why? Because we have built a reputation of very rich overpaying company with zero accountability for the mistakes of its management.
 

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Yeah sign player that manager wanted - it's management fault for backing manager by paying fee to land the player.

Don't sign the player as the price is too high - people moan how the manager isn't backed.
Let's say Mourinho wanted Neymar, Mbappe or Messi? What would the management do? Back him? As I said, I can't grasp the idea that some footballing man would pay 60m euros for Fred. It was and still is an absolute madness. I will call on the Hojbjerg example who also happened while Mourinho was a manager. Why is the difference 40m pounds and Spurs still got the better player?
 

Tavern in the town

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Mourinho is a stubborn arsehole but a double CL winning manager and proven winner, I think he can connect with modern footballers but I do think that he can not motivate nowadays footballers like Klopp can. Klopp's man management would have made a difference but I think you are expecting wonders. Klopp changed the majority of his Liverpool squad before winning anything.
It’s not about winning though. Yeah he changed most of the squad before he won trophies but those Liverpool players ran their arses off for him right from his first game. Some managers just have something about them where players will die for them. Fergie was the same. So was Jose a decade ago, he doesn’t seem to inspire any loyalty from the current generation of footballers though.
 

Kostov

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Any management will always back players when the manager isn't good or when the whole dressing room wants him gone. It isn't coincidence that we never hear the stories of Klopp, Pep losing dressing room but with Jose at every club we hear the same stories. Chelsea part 1, Chelsea part 2, Madrid and ManUtd. He spends more than 2 seasons you hear all the stories.

Klopp and Pep makes it easy for management as players are always with them except 1 or 2 which is easy to replace.
Well not everyone is Klopp or Pep or Anceloti, some is Mourinho and we hired the guy knowing who he is and what he brings. At the time, he was still a CL winning manager just won the PL a year ago, someone should have known that Mourinho and Pogba do not mix up very well.

Klopp and Pep are unique, especially Klopp. I hope ETH might be one, but the problems above still are present.
 

roonster09

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Let's say Mourinho wanted Neymar, Mbappe or Messi? What would the management do? Back him? As I said, I can't grasp the idea that some footballing man would pay 60m euros for Fred. It was and still is an absolute madness. I will call on the Hojbjerg example who also happened while Mourinho was a manager. Why is the difference 40m pounds and Spurs still got the better player?
So you want management to back the manager and also don't want to back the manager.

No point making this into fred topic, we have enough shit threads for that.
 

roonster09

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Well not everyone is Klopp or Pep or Anceloti, some is Mourinho and we hired the guy knowing who he is and what he brings. At the time, he was still a CL winning manager just won the PL a year ago, someone should have known that Mourinho and Pogba do not mix up very well.

Klopp and Pep are unique, especially Klopp. I hope ETH might be one, but the problems above still are present.
If Jose and Pogba don't mix up very well then he shouldn't be desperate for players like Pogba, the player he tried to sign for Chelsea but couldn't.

So Jose is a cnut but it's fine because it's expected. Solid arguments. He was hired to win PL, CL or at least compete for them. He failed after getting the players he wanted, it got even worse and he was sacked. Not sure why people find it so hard to let it go.

There is a reason none of the top clubs wanted Jose.
 

Lemoor

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The club should structure and be run in a right way in order for a manager to know his place. As I mentioned Spurs bought Hojbjerg for 15m pounds, if United came knocking Sotton would have rinsed us for 40m pounds, you know why? Because we have built a reputation of very rich overpaying company with zero accountability for the mistakes of its management.
Absolutely, but I think Mourinho would never accept such a structure in the long run.
Regarding Hojbjerg, didn't he have 1 year left on his contract at Southampton and said that he wanted to leave with relatively little interest from elsewhere? He left in 2020, his initial contract was until 2021 and I can't find anything about an extension while he was there. As much as I like bashing Woodward I'm not sure he's a typical transfer scenario.
 

el3mel

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Why does it seem Fred is treated as a bad business?

I mean I still think it was more of scouts choice than Mourinho whom I would assume just approved the deal, but I believe the club extracted a good value from him.

He has been a regular player for a couple of years now and honestly in comparison to Scott and Pogba, I will dare to say he has been the best of the lot and had a lot of great games.

I know 50m was too much but I won't necessarily call Fred a bad business or a flop.
 

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If Jose and Pogba don't mix up very well then he shouldn't be desperate for players like Pogba, the player he tried to sign for Chelsea but couldn't.

So Jose is a cnut but it's fine because it's expected. Solid arguments. He was hired to win PL, CL or at least compete for them. He failed after getting the players he wanted, it got even worse and he was sacked. Not sure why people find it so hard to let it go.

There is a reason none of the top clubs wanted Jose.
Whether he was desperate or not, you and I can not know. I know I was very pleased that he was back when we first bought him, and now I think it was a total waste of time and money. Or maybe with a properly backed Mourinho, Pogba would have had a different career here, you can never know. Most of the top managers are cnuts, ask Toure and Pep, what they think about one another. He was hired to win a CL, but anyone with their right mind knew that nobody can beat Pep and the City spending, not even Klopp for the first 2 years. Whether he wanted those players is questionable, I remember he wanted Perisic, Maguire and other names were mentioned, I don't think it's fair to say he got the players he wanted, at this moment we still don't know who wanted who, and who bought who.

It's not about being hard to let it go, 3 years almost since we sacked him, and we have gone only backwards, do you expect people to praise the management? And Anceloti proved this "none of the top clubs want Jose" line as a total bullshit. A year ago he was managing Everton, now he is in the CL finals.
 

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So you want management to back the manager and also don't want to back the manager.

No point making this into fred topic, we have enough shit threads for that.
This backing the manager thing how do you define it? Pay whatever it takes even if it bankrupts the club thing?
 

roonster09

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Whether he was desperate or not, you and I can not know. I know I was very pleased that he was back when we first bought him, and now I think it was a total waste of time and money. Or maybe with a properly backed Mourinho, Pogba would have had a different career here, you can never know. Most of the top managers are cnuts, ask Toure and Pep, what they think about one another. He was hired to win a CL, but anyone with their right mind knew that nobody can beat Pep and the City spending, not even Klopp for the first 2 years. Whether he wanted those players is questionable, I remember he wanted Perisic, Maguire and other names were mentioned, I don't think it's fair to say he got the players he wanted, at this moment we still don't know who wanted who, and who bought who.

It's not about being hard to let it go, 3 years almost since we sacked him, and we have gone only backwards, do you expect people to praise the management? And Anceloti proved this "none of the top clubs want Jose" line as a total bullshit. A year ago he was managing Everton, now he is in the CL finals.
So we don't know what he wanted but entire benefit of doubt goes to Jose?

He said he wanted 4 players in the first window and he got all 4. He said he wanted 4 in second window, he got 3, only Perisic wasn't signed. As a replacement he got Sanchez in Jan. He was backed and almost 100% too. Then he flirted with PSG, downed tools and rest is history.

No one can win CL? Apart from Pep, everyone won CL in last 7 years. Conte won PL in his first year, Klopp with less spending or as much spending not only won PL, he just dominated entire season. He also reached CL finals and won CL before winning PL.

So it all comes down to this, do you think Perisic was the difference between Jose having successful career winning PL and the way it ended?
 

roonster09

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This backing the manager thing how do you define it? Pay whatever it takes even if it bankrupts the club thing?
So in one post you say this and other post you say he wasn't backed because Perisic wasn't signed.

No, club is bankrupt, they spent within their means. People actually forgot how desperate Jose was to sign Fred. Duncan guy posted so many articles and then Jose came up with "team without Brazilian isn't a team at all". Once Fred started slow and played poorly, all the leaks from Jose journalists how he never wanted Fred.

Same with Lindelof. Guy moaned about Lindelof and even shat on him when he was pundit for ManUtd vs Chelsea game. His mouthpiece Duncan reported Lindelof was the first choice target for Jose and he reported this 6 months before we signed Lindelof.

I said it many times, Jose is master at playing crowds and people just fall for the shit all the time.

Ancelotti didn't prove anything as bs. Ancelotti isn't respected individual, who left clubs without fighting with anyone. With Jose, it was always war. Chelsea' best ever manager is Jose, do you think they will take him?

Inter's best manager in last 25-30 years is Jose, they signed Juventus legend instead of going for Jose.
Madrid hired rookies instead of going for Jose.

Lets see which club will be desperate enough to sign him.
 
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Yes we closed down that gap in the last few games after they hade secured their Top 4 spot and no longer could win the title.
No. We were 6 points behind them at the halfway stage, level (with a game extra) with 10 games to play, and level at the end of the season. We kept pace with them all season.

Did they have a better squad than us? Yes. Was it as massive and insurmountable a gap as Mourinho and his apologists like to dress it up now? No, especially not considering the amount of money we threw around when he was in charge.
 

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No. We were 6 points behind them at the halfway stage, level (with a game extra) with 10 games to play, and level at the end of the season. We kept pace with them all season.

Did they have a better squad than us? Yes. Was it as massive and insurmountable a gap as Mourinho and his apologists like to dress it up now? No, especially not considering the amount of money we threw around when he was in charge.
I like the revolutionism and basing everything on one season, just like people saying Chelsea came from 10th to win the league and ignore the fact they were champions the previous season anyway and were just bad for certain circumstances in that very season.

Man City won the league title in 2014 and finished 2nd the next season, meanwhile United finished 7th and 4th in both (barely finished 4th in fact). They also won 2 league cups and reached CL semi final in that period, while Man United were trophyless and got KOed from a shitty group in CL to get KOed again by the first good team to meet in Europe League.

They were miles ahead of us. They just had an off season, and in that off season, surprise, they still won a cup and reached CL semi.

When will people stop basing everything on one year and not on the whole picture ?
 
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My entire point is that part of the reason City consistently did better than us is because we consistently hired shit managers, guy. Mourinho was one of those shit managers, and out of all of them he has the biggest mouth. Therefore when he exaggerates just how impossible it was for him to keep pace with them while getting zero backing (this is sarcasm), and his fanbase laps it up, I get annoyed. So I posted the one hundred percent factual statement that we had just finished virtually level with City when he got the United job (and spent massive money) (to finish 6th, with a 3-point improvement in the league).

Funny that you talk about "revolutionism" but still can't help dressing your own post up saying we "barely" finished 4th in 2015 (we were six points ahead of Spurs - City were four ahead of Arsenal, so I guess they barely snuck 2nd!).
 

el3mel

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My entire point is that part of the reason City consistently did better than us is because we consistently hired shit managers, guy. Mourinho was one of those shit managers, and out of all of them he has the biggest mouth. Therefore when he exaggerates just how impossible it was for him to keep pace with them while getting zero backing (this is sarcasm), and his fanbase laps it up, I get annoyed. So I posted the one hundred percent factual statement that we had just finished virtually level with City when he got the United job (and spent massive money) (to finish 6th, with a 3-point improvement in the league).

Funny that you talk about "revolutionism" but still can't help dressing your own post up saying we "barely" finished 4th in 2015 (we were six points ahead of Spurs - City were four ahead of Arsenal, so I guess they barely snuck 2nd!).
Pep only needed to rebuild the backline of the Man City he inherited, he didn't change that in the midfield and attack. Fernandinho, David Silva, KDB, Sterling, Aguero, all these were his main core in the team and all were players that were present under Pellegrini. Meanwhile, LVG left us with a midfield of Bastian, Fellaini, Herrera, Schneiderlein and an attack of Rooney, Lingard, Rashford and Martial. There's no comparison no matter how much you dress it up just because of one off season City had for very specific circumstances.

Well, unlike you, I actually watch the matches, and don't just bring tables from the internet. In 2015 Spurs weren't even in contest for Top 4 with us, it was Liverpool. before the famous Juanfield game the gap between us and them were one /two points and if they had won in this game they would have overtaken us in top 4, but after we won they completely collapsed for the rest of the season and Spurs ended up overtaking them for 5th. That covered for the fact that we lost 3 games in a row later after that run.

Just like that season you keep mentioning of us finishing on the same level on City when in reality City were doing well and challenging for the title for the first half of the season and collapsed midway in the season when they announced Pep would take over from Pellegrini at the end of the season.
 

jeff_goldblum

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Of course Jose was right about a few things, notably the problems with the club's structure and decision-making, and his assessments of a few players. But he was also wrong about a few things, made an array of mistakes as a tactician and as a man-manager and when he got sacked it was thoroughly deserved.

In Mourinho's defence, the rebuilding job he was tasked with was possibly the most difficult since Fergie left as the squad Van Gaal left behind was an utter mess. I never really expected him to win the league given he was playing catch-up with City but for the money spent I'd have expected Top-4 in his first season and a much better showing in the Champions League in that second season. Looking at the players who came in, I honestly think you'd struggle to point to an area of the squad which was noticeably stronger in December 2018 than it had been in Summer of 2016.
 

Zetrio2002

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Jose was right but he did little about the issues.

For example, he mentioned Lukaku was fat but did nothing to stop him continue to being fat. Lukaku only became thin when he went Inter.

He called Pogba a virus but did nothing.

He called Martial and Micky too small/weak.
 

OrcaFat

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There’s a few posts in here that list his signings and say they are shit, cost loads, and are proof he was backed.

Firstly his signings weren’t all shit. Most of them seemed like a good idea at the time. Most of them have delivered some value in one way or another.

Secondly, it is, I’m afraid, inevitable that United will spend and, very often, overspend. I don’t know when it started but we always get fleeced. We get quoted over the odds and we either pay it or sometimes we don’t pay it and the same players get sold to someone else for half the fee (maybe I’m imagining it but Trippier springs to mind). Anyway I wouldn’t use the numbers as a stick to beat the manager with.

Thirdly, talking about Jose not being backed is more than the total money spent. It is about backing his knowledge and experience and letting him make the key decisions on the squad, especially if there were issues with specific players (the board should never ever back the players).

Without Woodward and his little arseholes dropping nuggets everywhere, Jose would probably have been more successful here. I’m not sure he would have had us playing beautiful football but that’s another question altogether.
 

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He was right. Winning two trophies in his first season and finishing with 81 points in the second season with a squad teemed full of squad players which he inherited was a fantastic achievement.

Our best manager post Fergie.

I would've respected him more if he quit that summer of 2018 when he wasn't backed by the board and when that clueless Muppet Woodward and Joel Glazer blocked the sale of Martial. Instead he threw his toys out of the pram and moped his way into the following season, the rest is history.
 

Rockets Redglare

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He was right. Winning two trophies in his first season and finishing with 81 points in the second season with a squad teemed full of squad players which he inherited was a fantastic achievement.

Our best manager post Fergie.

I would've respected him more if he quit that summer of 2018 when he wasn't backed by the board and when that clueless Muppet Woodward and Joel Glazer blocked the sale of Martial. Instead he threw his toys out of the pram and moped his way into the following season, the rest is history.
He purely did that for the payout, and I don’t blame him for it.
 

roonster09

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There’s a few posts in here that list his signings and say they are shit, cost loads, and are proof he was backed.

Firstly his signings weren’t all shit. Most of them seemed like a good idea at the time. Most of them have delivered some value in one way or another.

Secondly, it is, I’m afraid, inevitable that United will spend and, very often, overspend. I don’t know when it started but we always get fleeced. We get quoted over the odds and we either pay it or sometimes we don’t pay it and the same players get sold to someone else for half the fee (maybe I’m imagining it but Trippier springs to mind). Anyway I wouldn’t use the numbers as a stick to beat the manager with.

Thirdly, talking about Jose not being backed is more than the total money spent. It is about backing his knowledge and experience and letting him make the key decisions on the squad, especially if there were issues with specific players (the board should never ever back the players).

Without Woodward and his little arseholes dropping nuggets everywhere, Jose would probably have been more successful here. I’m not sure he would have had us playing beautiful football but that’s another question altogether.
Board should never ever back.manager when whole world and their dogs knew manager was the wrong choice. Manager is not some god, he is just one more employee like players.
 

OrcaFat

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Board should never ever back.manager when whole world and their dogs knew manager was the wrong choice. Manager is not some god, he is just one more employee like players.
Then don’t appoint him or get off the pot and sack him. But they didn’t. They gradually undermined him. Manager is not God but he is closer to it than the board, the fans and, yup, the players.

A manager really has no chance once the board stops backing him and he might as well be sacked straight away. Problem is our board is always blinkered by the immediate cost of anything. Sacking managers costs money so they would rather undermine him and let results drift until the manager’s position is untenable, hope that he resigns or misses some target that will reduce his payoff. They don’t care that the club is simultaneously going to shit.
 

roonster09

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Then don’t appoint him or get off the pot and sack hi
Then no manager will ever be appointed by any club. Things change and very quickly in football.

And no, manager is not closer unless we are taking about SAF, Pep or Klopp. Magnets managers who is known for losing dressing room and pick up fights with everyone wont be backed at any club. You have to change entire club to "back" manager like Jose
 
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OrcaFat

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Then no manager will ever be appointed by any club. Things change and very quickly in football.
No, that doesn’t follow from what I said at all.

You said the whole world knew he was the wrong choice. Even if you allow for the error of appointing him you can’t excuse the way the board overruled him on management issues and expected him to carry on happily instead of just sacking him. Unless you have a little soft spot for Woody and the Glazers of course.
 

HookedOnAPhelan

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He was right. Winning two trophies in his first season and finishing with 81 points in the second season with a squad teemed full of squad players which he inherited was a fantastic achievement.

Our best manager post Fergie.

I would've respected him more if he quit that summer of 2018 when he wasn't backed by the board and when that clueless Muppet Woodward and Joel Glazer blocked the sale of Martial. Instead he threw his toys out of the pram and moped his way into the following season, the rest is history.
That's like being the thinnest kid at fat camp.

"Wasn't backed by the board" :lol: