Pretty much. I'm not going to turn my nose up at the League Cup or the Europa League, but I have no memory of who won the League Cup last year and the only reason I know Sevilla won the EL in 2016 is because I was reading something about Monchi recently. It's nice to have the trophies, but Jose's performance will be judged by how the team competes in two competitions, and it's not those 2.
So then doom merchant... What would you do?
- Thread starter TheReligion
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Don't understand why people are being negative about this thread, it's interesting to see what people think could happen with the squad with or without Mourinho.
For the record I don't want to see Mourinho leave at all, I think we are literally two or three players (one being a goal scorer) away from being solid top 4 and maybe even challengers next season.
Even despite finishing likely 6th this year I'd still class it as successful as long as we win Europa.
I do however see why some aren't happy.
For the record I don't want to see Mourinho leave at all, I think we are literally two or three players (one being a goal scorer) away from being solid top 4 and maybe even challengers next season.
Even despite finishing likely 6th this year I'd still class it as successful as long as we win Europa.
I do however see why some aren't happy.
I would buy at proper striker who can score all types of goals, hard working midfielder(possibly two) and a centre back who isn't afraid to play with the ball. I might throw in a fullback too.
Benzema and Fabinho would be my must buy players. Bailly plus one other ball playing centre back would be enough to completely revive our spine.
Play two striker system with the team built around Martial and Benzema. Build entire game around isolating them 2 on 2 or 2 on 3. Provide a functional unit behind them. Give freedom to Pogba to do his thing.
Absolutely no giving up possession to opponents. When we get the ball, I would move the entire team forward with sprints. No jogging around nonsense. Hire coaches that would coach players to pass quicker and be perfectionists about their passing, ala Pep. Nag them if their passes are slightly under hit, little bit behind, kill an attack etc. When we lose the ball, hound the opposition, but I'd keep this only for certain games and, ease it against some league sides. No unnecessary hoofing the ball, build the play when you can.
Benzema and Fabinho would be my must buy players. Bailly plus one other ball playing centre back would be enough to completely revive our spine.
Play two striker system with the team built around Martial and Benzema. Build entire game around isolating them 2 on 2 or 2 on 3. Provide a functional unit behind them. Give freedom to Pogba to do his thing.
Absolutely no giving up possession to opponents. When we get the ball, I would move the entire team forward with sprints. No jogging around nonsense. Hire coaches that would coach players to pass quicker and be perfectionists about their passing, ala Pep. Nag them if their passes are slightly under hit, little bit behind, kill an attack etc. When we lose the ball, hound the opposition, but I'd keep this only for certain games and, ease it against some league sides. No unnecessary hoofing the ball, build the play when you can.
Not at all, I just happen to be a newb (although have been reading the forum for years) and therefore only have a few posts per day. At present by far the biggest discussion topic on the site is Mourinho, and so that's what I'm largely commenting on. I've commented on your posts a couple of times because you are pretty prolific in terms of posting on the topic of Mourinho.
The whole point of a forum is that it is a place where people can put across their views and others can take issue with them. I didn't 'moan' about your opinion, I just pointed out that you claiming to have not been negative about Mourinho was entirely untrue. If you don't want to be held to account for stuff that you've written then I'd venture that maybe you are the one that isn't understanding the notion of a forum properly.
Martial, to me, hasn't shown he's suited for that here. He's better on the wing. Even when he's put up top, he tends to drift to the left side. Nothing wrong with that, he's pretty good there. I'm still skeptical of Martial being a contributing force at United, but I do see so much potential in him. Frustrating sometimes.
Not correct.
He will not be judged only on the basis of two competitions even if they are more important competitions. There are a whole lot more basis for judging a new manager's performance in his first season.
Agree with you 100%.
He looks better on the left because that's the only position where he is allowed to run with the ball. The way we currently play, our strikers are expected to receive the ball with their back to the goal. That's not Martial's game and he looks very poor in that position. Whenever he's played centrally for us, he's isolated with at least two centre backs marking him. He tries to dribble them because that's all he knows. Bring a proper potent striker to isolate Martial with one other centre back and he will own that position in my opinion.
If you watched Martial with Monaco where he played plenty of games on the left and through the centre, he always seemed to be equally good. Also now it's the same with Mbappe for Monaco, he's replicating that sort of position where he drifts from left to central striker position. For that system, Falcao is the target man who occupies defenders so others with pace can get a run at defenders. To certain extent it's similar to watching Dybala who has target men in the form of Higuain and Mandzukic. They both also have a fully functional midfield behind them which can carry as well as win the ball high up the field.
These young strikers aren't going to be able to lead the line on their own for a good few years. They need a goal scorer next to them so they can shine in short bursts. Martial is a great talent and we will ruin him if he spends another season trying to track back.
Which is the way football is played today. Wingers drifting central(free roam in attack), functioning as you say Martial did and Mbappe does at Monaco. Or Ronaldo at Madrid. And the fullbacks take the position as wingers. Hopefully this is how he will be used next season.
The worst are the ones that moan about moaners talking about moaners.
Not really sure it's strange to ask for other people's opinions and ideas on a football forum.
It's discussion that a forums for after all and this thread is generating plenty.
Are you moaning about the ones that moan about moaners talking about moaners?
Think that's totally wrong. Big club's accumulate trophies and we are privileged to be in a position that even at our most vulnerable we are still able to collect silverwear that other clubs could only dream of. Some of our fans need to wake up and understanding this and start being more humble.
This group of players need to win too. They need hungry, desire and fight. Mourinho has indicated that the mentality is wrong and I think it's obvious something is missing with a large part of our squad. Certain players need success, in whatever form, to drive them on to do better. Winning trophies is part of it.
Unashamedly yes.
Well I can't say I did to be honest. I don't watch much of Ligue 1 football. I can only base it on what I have seen from his time here at United. And I've seen good and some, not so good. I don't really disagree with anything you say here, and I hope you're right about him.
@TheReligion Do you see United as the biggest club in the world, out of interest?
I'm not sure. Define biggest?
I think we need far more continuity and far less change. We keep on expecting incoming transfers to solve all our problems yet each time they seem to help to some extent but create new issues.
Defence is fine. Plenty of options. To my mind, we concede relatively few goals without expecting our keeper to make a huge number of astonishing saves, therefore we are fine. If Real Madrid make a huge offer for De Gea and he desperately wants to leave then Romero as first choice keeper.
Midfield starters (Pogba + Herrera) are fine, though both could do with improving the defensive side of their games. Not sure about back-up options. Difficult to assess TFM without seeing him in action in midfield at PL level. Carrick probably capable of playing 10 PL matches next season if selected carefully. Fellaini suits certain matches. Blind could be an option for a few games. Typically use 2 in midfield but opt for 3 for some of the more difficult away games.
Attack needs a lot of work on the training ground. Rashford central striker. Martial left wing (and back-up to Rashford). Other 2 positions (right wing and no 10) unsure about. Would like to assess Pereira and Januzaj. Mkhitaryan, Mata and Lingard options. Might buy one player.
Higher tempo required when score is level or behind. We are still guilty of running down the clock during spells in games. Substitutions need to be earlier and more aggressive when score is level or behind, especially at home. Against top opponents away, I would be reluctant to repeat Mourinho's deep block approach without any confidence that we can launch intelligent counter-attacks.
Use team A for PL, team B for Europa League and domestic cup competitions. Players who perform well for team B, may earn themselves a place in team A during the season. No player expected to play huge number of games. Every first team squad player involved.
Key to success is basic competence plus getting Pogba and Rashford to perform close to their max.
Defence is fine. Plenty of options. To my mind, we concede relatively few goals without expecting our keeper to make a huge number of astonishing saves, therefore we are fine. If Real Madrid make a huge offer for De Gea and he desperately wants to leave then Romero as first choice keeper.
Midfield starters (Pogba + Herrera) are fine, though both could do with improving the defensive side of their games. Not sure about back-up options. Difficult to assess TFM without seeing him in action in midfield at PL level. Carrick probably capable of playing 10 PL matches next season if selected carefully. Fellaini suits certain matches. Blind could be an option for a few games. Typically use 2 in midfield but opt for 3 for some of the more difficult away games.
Attack needs a lot of work on the training ground. Rashford central striker. Martial left wing (and back-up to Rashford). Other 2 positions (right wing and no 10) unsure about. Would like to assess Pereira and Januzaj. Mkhitaryan, Mata and Lingard options. Might buy one player.
Higher tempo required when score is level or behind. We are still guilty of running down the clock during spells in games. Substitutions need to be earlier and more aggressive when score is level or behind, especially at home. Against top opponents away, I would be reluctant to repeat Mourinho's deep block approach without any confidence that we can launch intelligent counter-attacks.
Use team A for PL, team B for Europa League and domestic cup competitions. Players who perform well for team B, may earn themselves a place in team A during the season. No player expected to play huge number of games. Every first team squad player involved.
Key to success is basic competence plus getting Pogba and Rashford to perform close to their max.
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This is it for me. Every season, people around here talk about bringing in 6-8 new players and shipping out others. It's impossible to put together a winning squad without continuity. I agree we have needs that need to be filled with transfers, but you can't just uproot the whole first 11 every summer. Continuity breeds chemistry and an understanding of the system and the manager's demands. You should ideally have a core group of players and bit by bit add onto that with a couple of quality additions or important sales every year. Those players who've had their chance to lock down a spot and haven't, they can be relegated to the bench or sold (I'm thinking Smalling here, Jones because of injuries). A gradual phase in/out is the only way to build toward something.
Great idea for a thread! Deserves serious responses IMO.
To be honest I would call some kind of conference for a week somewhere on some island away from everything and take Fergie (obviously) and ex-players like Scholes , Giggs , Neville as well as some other people from other clubs. People like Lee Dixon who remembers playing against great United teams and has some interesting points to make. Basically , call together a range of people who we could all respect and have a right good thrashing out of what's going on. How did it get like this? Why have we become so boring and stuck? BUT most importantly what was it that made United great. What ingredients made up that success?
I would ask Fergie mainly how he would try and put it right if he was 20 years younger and had the job again and then get the group to put together some 5-10 year plan for the club (forget the hierachy , they would just HAVE to listen) - that would involve our approach to things like......
Bringing on youth players and scouting
What brand of football we might play + formations (and recruit players accordingly eg fast wingers if needed)
Developing a team /club identity again
The mentality of players (psychologically strong , positive characters?)
Everything else would depend on the results from this strategic plan. It would just be a matter of looking at what we did that worked and why we are not still doing it and what we didn't do that is just not working now. I'd stick to that plan for 5-10 years not matter what and look long term like Fergie did in 86.
Then I'd have a "free" season where winning anything or achieving anything was totally forgotten about. All I would focus on would be playing some good football and getting the crowd at OT going again. I'd ask the players what systems they enjoy playing and encourage them to express themselves . We'd lose a few games but there would be hope and some green shoots of recovery.
Basically there's a huge reservoir of wisdom and knowledge right on our doorstep and I would try and bleed it dry. I'm not sure what the final results would be but I'm damn sure it wouldn't lead to seeing a United team cowering nervously at home to a far lesser opposition like we did versus Vigo
To be honest I would call some kind of conference for a week somewhere on some island away from everything and take Fergie (obviously) and ex-players like Scholes , Giggs , Neville as well as some other people from other clubs. People like Lee Dixon who remembers playing against great United teams and has some interesting points to make. Basically , call together a range of people who we could all respect and have a right good thrashing out of what's going on. How did it get like this? Why have we become so boring and stuck? BUT most importantly what was it that made United great. What ingredients made up that success?
I would ask Fergie mainly how he would try and put it right if he was 20 years younger and had the job again and then get the group to put together some 5-10 year plan for the club (forget the hierachy , they would just HAVE to listen) - that would involve our approach to things like......
Bringing on youth players and scouting
What brand of football we might play + formations (and recruit players accordingly eg fast wingers if needed)
Developing a team /club identity again
The mentality of players (psychologically strong , positive characters?)
Everything else would depend on the results from this strategic plan. It would just be a matter of looking at what we did that worked and why we are not still doing it and what we didn't do that is just not working now. I'd stick to that plan for 5-10 years not matter what and look long term like Fergie did in 86.
Then I'd have a "free" season where winning anything or achieving anything was totally forgotten about. All I would focus on would be playing some good football and getting the crowd at OT going again. I'd ask the players what systems they enjoy playing and encourage them to express themselves . We'd lose a few games but there would be hope and some green shoots of recovery.
Basically there's a huge reservoir of wisdom and knowledge right on our doorstep and I would try and bleed it dry. I'm not sure what the final results would be but I'm damn sure it wouldn't lead to seeing a United team cowering nervously at home to a far lesser opposition like we did versus Vigo
That's way too many moans!! It's ridiculous having to moan 2-3 times a week. We've been moaning Sundays and thursdays for months now and no forum can keep that up without posters getting tired. How are we expected to have so many moans? Sometimes there's only 48 hours between moans and we've got a really big moan coming up 72 hours after a small moan that doesn't really matter. It's exhausting.
Well, winning trophies - as such - is obviously important if you want to create (or rather re-create, in our case) a certain mentality. I can’t read the minds of our players, but I suspect that winning a proper trophy (like the league) makes much more difference in that regard than winning any trophy. Everyone knows that the League Cup and the EL aren’t prestigious trophies.
The idea that taking baby steps, trophy wise, is the road back to success is something Liverpool fans have been telling themselves for decades now. It doesn’t work like that. You can even become an expert at winning what I will be bold enough to call minor trophies - and never actually get there. And by “there” I mean where United should be, given our history and our resources.
As far as I’m concerned Mourinho’s job is to get us back to being an actual top team. Whether he collects minor trophies along the way or not is neither here nor there for me. This has been discussed in several threads, but my take on it is as follows: I’d much rather take a proper challenge in the league, looking like a team capable of winning it, losing out to a slightly better rival - than winning trophies which ultimately don’t mean all that much, just for the sake of adding that particular brand of trophy to our total. The latter smacks of Liverpool too, if I may say so.
I've been reading the forum for a few years now and tend to agree with most of the stuff you post @Chesterlestreet, but I do think you are slightly underplaying the importance (or lack of) the Europa League. Of course it's not on the level of winning the league or the Champs League, but to say it isn't prestigious in the least is not quite true either. Personally I've always thought it was worth winning - from my earliest memory of seeing Spurs in the final in '84, right up to more recent years when I started to see Athletico Madrid as a genuine force in European Football after they started to reach finals a few years ago. I'd take it over the FA Cup I reckon.
I think it has been devalued in this country, largely because of its Thursday night slots, lengthy format, and because of our hectic winter schedule that renders it a chore for teams fighting on several fronts, but I reckon it is still viewed highly on the continent, and I do think it will send out a message to the rest of Europe (and to prospective players) if we manage to win it. I would have been gutted if Liverpool had won it last year!
First of all, as far as anybody can 'invent' a style of football, Jose pretty much invented pressing high up the pitch. The problem is, you can't do it with Zlatan, Rooney, Martial, Mata etc....even looking further back....Fellaini, Carrick....just isn't going to cut it
We tried it in the Derby at OT and it played into City's hands so perfectly that that was the worst half I have seen from our first team and the best from theirs.
It was embarrassing watching Zlatan and Rooney trying to press. Kind of like watching a wardrobe tip over in slow motion.
Secondly, I am sceptical about the theory that our players could be coached to pass better or more sharply. I think by the age of 17/18 you have pretty much done improving this aspect of your game. You couldn't coach our lads to pass more precisely just like Pep hasn't been able to coach it into City
What all this says to me, once again, is that it is absolutely 100% pointless criticising Jose's tactics or the way he sets the team up to play until at least the majority of them are his players
Jose has won trophy after trophy playing pretty much the same way (read some of the books on his coaching career) and unfortunately the Frankenstein's monster of a mish-mash of styles and abilities of a squad Jose inherited from SAF, Moyes and LvG doesn't really give him many options
This again is why people get confused - why can't this manager improve a talented squad? You can....if the raw materials are there. You can no more get Fellaini, Carrick, Mata, Zlatan*, Rooney and Martial to play high intensity pressing football than you could a gorilla to play a bit of Mozart
*before anyone chirps up with a "Jose signed Zlatan" I think we all know is what a stop-gap until he could find a long term solution
Yes - but that was a different trophy. I’ve said the same thing in other threads: I don’t consider either the old UEFA Cup or the old Cup Winner’s Cup minor trophies. Those competitions had a completely different aura. They weren’t the poor man’s Champions League.
If the format hadn’t changed, present-day Barca would’ve been in the UEFA cup. Nobody would’ve thrown the Mickey Mouse term around then. As it stands, however, the Europa League is a competition for teams that failed to qualify for the CL - that’s the bottom line. It has a distinct B-list aura - and it isn’t a natural continuation of the old format. To us, it’s a means to qualify for next season’s CL. I don’t see it as a trophy worth winning in itself - I’m sorry, but I simply don’t. And I stress again that this has nothing to do with it being less prestigious than the CL: The old UEFA/CWC were less prestigious than the EC, but they were nevertheless competitions worth winning.
When we won the old CWC in ‘91 we defeated a great team in the final - it genuinely felt like an achievement, a proper European title. The EL isn’t comparable to that at all.
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To put it in context, we beat a team featuring Koeman and Laudrup in that final. The same year Mätthaus, Brehme and Klinsmann (and Völler, and my old favourite Giannini, to mention a few) appeared in the UEFA Cup final. Maradona’s Napoli won it the year before - and so forth. It was a completely different scene. Those teams would all be competing for the CL title in the present format.
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That was by chance though - we could just as easily have played a minnow that had got lucky. Similarly some of Liverpool's European Cup wins were against the might of FC Brugge and Borussia Moenchengladbach, Forest beat Malmo etc. This year we could be playing Inter Milan in the final had they reached it.
I understand all that, I just don't think that the rest of the footballing world necessarily shares your disdain for it. As I said, seeing Athletico win a couple of finals made me start to view them as a force to be reckoned with rather than the perennially underachieving runt sibling of Real. Hundreds of millions of people round the world will be watching it, and even without the CL place that's riding on it it would be a prize worth winning, albeit in a competition that you don't necessarily aim to be in at the start of the season (much like the old UEFA Cup regardless of the subsequent changes in format).
You say that winning minor trophies is not the way back to success, and cite Liverpool as an example, but I could just as easily cite Athletico Madrid and say that after winning a couple of Europa League titles they then reached 2 Champs League finals within a year or two. Neither example really proves anything.
Your plan begins with getting rid of De Gea, Valencia, Pogba, Smalling, Young, Carrick, & Jones?
Fair enough, that's true.
Still, you could reasonably claim that our current situation (or predicament) isn't comparable to A. Madrid's (at the time). They didn't "rise" through those wins in a comparable manner. We're aiming to get back to a position that is comparable to R. Madrid's - not A. Madrid's.
Call it being spoiled if you must - but the Fergie era established us as a giant: Domestically (undeniably so), internationally (well, not so undeniably, but pretty close), financially (again, undeniably).
I'm not accusing you of this, just to make it clear, but I almost get the impression from some posts on here that we're now back to being one of the boys - as if the Fergie years were nothing but one, grand, long-lasting anomaly. We should be grateful for the odd trophy, as it were.
The fact is that we have a better foundation (financial, not least) to build from than almost any other football club on the planet. So, if we fail to challenge properly for the biggest prizes - that is a failure. In my opinion this isn't foolish entitlement - it's a reasonable enough expectation.
And I stand by my original claim: Picking up trophies, regardless of what they are, is being used - right here and now - by posters who are desperate to defend Mourinho against any kind of perceived "negativity". That is mainly what it is. In the grand scheme of things it shouldn't matter whether United win a League Cup (no more than it did when we were a force in world football not too long ago) or a Europa League (which we wouldn't be playing for if we weren't so far behind). What truly matters is - well, I think we all know what that is: Not winning everything, every year, by default. That is obviously unrealistic. But being in the mix, properly, every year.
Hmm, I'm not sure that anyone really (well maybe the odd person) is happy being 'back to being one of the boys', and that 'we should be grateful for the odd trophy'. And I genuinely don't think many people are seeking to paint winning the EL as some major trophy purely to 'defend Mourinho against any kind of perceived negativity'. I just think it's a subjective topic.
Of course what truly matters is being properly in the mix every year, we all agree on that. What we're disagreeing on is whether winning this EL can play a valuable part in getting back to that level. I think it can, which imbues it with even more value than just its intrinsic value as a trophy. But even without that I think you have a more negative view of the trophy than most football fans across the continent. I've got nothing to back that up other than my gut feel.
Anyway, we could argue about this all day, but personally I'm really looking forward to watching us play in another European Final. They don't come around very often and they should be treasured. Hopefully we'll win it and use it as a springboard to take into next season.
I think the biggest problem is we have a completley outdated model of how a football club is supposed to be managed and it isn't working anymore in modern football.
We have one manager who is in charge of everything. He needs to do transfers, he needs to training and coach the first-team, he is the public face and the one carrying all responsability on his shoulders. I simply think this isn't working anymore in modern football. A club like United must at the same time be achieving very difficult short-term goals like winning trophies and securing CL football every season but it must also be laying a solid foundation for future success like establishing a good youth system, finding the best young talents and having a way to let them flow into the first-team, building state of the art infrastructure, having cutting-edge medical support, establishing a very good scouting system, building and maintaining a network of relationships with various partners ranging from other football clubs to player agents etc... I think it is very difficult to do all those tasks well at the same time if they are done by just 1 person.
For example Mourinho is our manager and he may be building a solid foundation for the future which is a long term objective that isn't visible for the media and fans and at the same time he must achieve short-term successes. If he fails to do the latter, what happens is you get growing discontent amongst the fans, alot of negative pressure from the media and it becomes difficult for the club to maintain support in the manager and when the external pressure becomes too much to handle the manager gets fired and the club goes on the find a suitable replacement. But this new football manager can not just pick up where Mourinho left because he might have an entire different view on how we should be playing, how we are doing our transfers, with which player agents we collaborate, how we do our scouting, how we do basically everything because he is again responsable for everything. In this way you end up in a vicious circle where the pressure on short-term goals, which just simply will never disappear at a big club like United, is making it impossible for the manager to do things on the long term.
Not to mention the fact that we are hiring profiles of trainers/coaches to do a manager's job that has implications aswell because not every trainer/coach will be an excellent manager and will not have the capabilities to do all the tasks of a manager very well. Next to that you have the fact that in modern football trainers/coaches are often very ambitious in the way that they always search for the next best project for them. Seldom do these guys want to stay at a club for a very long time, after a couple of seasons, even if they were succesfull these guys want to go to another club and have a new challenge to tackle. It is very difficult to implement long-term goals with people who are so short-term minded.
This was different under Ferguson because he was old school and he understood and valued the work on the long term and the success it brought to the club. In modern football I think it is impossible to find a new Ferguson who can do both roles so well and is willing to do it for a very long time.
This is why I think in modern football you have to make a distinction between a football manager and a football trainer/coach. The manager is responsable for the long-term projects and goals and the trainer/coach is responsable for short-term goals. For the role of a manager you want to hire someone with great managerial talents and who is willing to stay at the club for a long time and for the trainer/coach role you want people who can do excellent work with a group of players in a short amount of time.
Transfers for example are something which should be done by the manager and the trainer/coach should just be consulted about them but not have the final say. Because if we buy a player, that costs the club alot of money, they stay for long term contracts usually and hence they should fit into some long term plan the club has. Because the trainer/coach he might just be here for only a short time, he should not be given huge sums of money to buy whoever he wants if he might not be here anymore next season. That is why the final decision on any transfer should be something the manager decides about.
So the first thing I would like to see happen at United is we bring in a director of football who can manage the football side of things on the long term and away from the public pressure of the media and fans. Currently Woodward takes on this role as part of being CEO but I think he should focus on commercial side of the club and let a director of football handle the football side of things.
We have one manager who is in charge of everything. He needs to do transfers, he needs to training and coach the first-team, he is the public face and the one carrying all responsability on his shoulders. I simply think this isn't working anymore in modern football. A club like United must at the same time be achieving very difficult short-term goals like winning trophies and securing CL football every season but it must also be laying a solid foundation for future success like establishing a good youth system, finding the best young talents and having a way to let them flow into the first-team, building state of the art infrastructure, having cutting-edge medical support, establishing a very good scouting system, building and maintaining a network of relationships with various partners ranging from other football clubs to player agents etc... I think it is very difficult to do all those tasks well at the same time if they are done by just 1 person.
For example Mourinho is our manager and he may be building a solid foundation for the future which is a long term objective that isn't visible for the media and fans and at the same time he must achieve short-term successes. If he fails to do the latter, what happens is you get growing discontent amongst the fans, alot of negative pressure from the media and it becomes difficult for the club to maintain support in the manager and when the external pressure becomes too much to handle the manager gets fired and the club goes on the find a suitable replacement. But this new football manager can not just pick up where Mourinho left because he might have an entire different view on how we should be playing, how we are doing our transfers, with which player agents we collaborate, how we do our scouting, how we do basically everything because he is again responsable for everything. In this way you end up in a vicious circle where the pressure on short-term goals, which just simply will never disappear at a big club like United, is making it impossible for the manager to do things on the long term.
Not to mention the fact that we are hiring profiles of trainers/coaches to do a manager's job that has implications aswell because not every trainer/coach will be an excellent manager and will not have the capabilities to do all the tasks of a manager very well. Next to that you have the fact that in modern football trainers/coaches are often very ambitious in the way that they always search for the next best project for them. Seldom do these guys want to stay at a club for a very long time, after a couple of seasons, even if they were succesfull these guys want to go to another club and have a new challenge to tackle. It is very difficult to implement long-term goals with people who are so short-term minded.
This was different under Ferguson because he was old school and he understood and valued the work on the long term and the success it brought to the club. In modern football I think it is impossible to find a new Ferguson who can do both roles so well and is willing to do it for a very long time.
This is why I think in modern football you have to make a distinction between a football manager and a football trainer/coach. The manager is responsable for the long-term projects and goals and the trainer/coach is responsable for short-term goals. For the role of a manager you want to hire someone with great managerial talents and who is willing to stay at the club for a long time and for the trainer/coach role you want people who can do excellent work with a group of players in a short amount of time.
Transfers for example are something which should be done by the manager and the trainer/coach should just be consulted about them but not have the final say. Because if we buy a player, that costs the club alot of money, they stay for long term contracts usually and hence they should fit into some long term plan the club has. Because the trainer/coach he might just be here for only a short time, he should not be given huge sums of money to buy whoever he wants if he might not be here anymore next season. That is why the final decision on any transfer should be something the manager decides about.
So the first thing I would like to see happen at United is we bring in a director of football who can manage the football side of things on the long term and away from the public pressure of the media and fans. Currently Woodward takes on this role as part of being CEO but I think he should focus on commercial side of the club and let a director of football handle the football side of things.
If you think it’s necessary to win what I call minor trophies to get back up top - yes. But I don’t think it is. I think mounting an actual title challenge (even if we don’t win it) is much more important. That would be a far more trustworthy sign that we’re roughly where we need to be than picking up trophies, any kind of trophies, as though we’re paupers in the trophy department who desperately need to put ourselves on the map.
I think the EL is regarded somewhat differently across the continent - so, yes, I’ll give you that. But objectively speaking - and this is undeniable, in my opinion - the standard of teams competing in it is not comparable to the old UEFA Cup (in particular). This has to do with the expansion of the CL - it’s a fairly tangible point within what is, otherwise, subjective enough (I agree with that too).
As for the other thing - well, it is my impression that posters who are, let’s say, overtly pro-Mourinho are more eager to point out the value (regarded as “success” as such) of winning trophies, regardless of the nature of these trophies. Perhaps I’m just paranoid - but I see a certain tendency there. Posters who are either skeptical of Mourinho or - let’s say - neutral about him personally, do not seem to value these achievements as much. See the Spurs discussion for relevant examples, i.e. what is better (or a better indication that you’re doing something right): A strong league campaign or what I keep calling minor trophies. For us, I mean. Not Spurs. But for us: Challenging for the league without winning it is downplayed by vocal Mourinho supporters, who keep saying “trophies, trophies - you haven’t won anything” as though this settles the argument. Which it does, sort of, for Spurs - because they haven’t won the league since Blanchflower’s days. But we aren’t Spurs. Our goal isn’t to fight our way into the so-called “elite”. Our goal is to use our vast resources to bounce back from a natural reaction after Fergie’s retirement - to what should be our position.
I look forward to the final, by the way - nervously so. A final is a final - by all means, and this one means quite a lot for the club. But the importance of that match has much more to do with our current state than with the actual prestige of the trophy itself. For me.
If I had to step into to Mourinho's shoes, this is what I would surely do
-Get rid of the old stock of players:
Out: Rooney, Zlatan, Carrick, Young
-Get rid of the deadwood players who don't add anything:
Out: Smalling, Jones, Darmian, Shaw
-I'd sort out the situation with DDG and let him leave but only if we are fairly compensated (I'd want a huge sum of money for him).
-Januzaj would also be a player I'd sell this summer together with Varela
-Pereira, Axel, TFM, CBJ are certain to be taken up next year in the first team and will all be getting regular playing opportunities.
-Next I would try to bring in Pepe on a free transfer
-I would make signing Donnarumma an absolutle priority, he is not yet on a big deal at ACM and is current contract is to expire next year in June, his agent is Mino Raiola. So the strategy is here to have Mino convince Donna to hold off on signing a new contract extension at ACM under the promise we will offer a contract with a much higher wage (currently ACM is offering only €3.5m a year to the young goalkeeper) and a big signing on fee for both Donna and Mino. Then put ACM under pressure to sell him this summer by offering around 50m for him which will be difficult for them to refuse if he Donna doesn't want to extend his current deal. Donna would be my nr 1 keeper with Romero back-up, in case the transfer doesn't go through Romero will be nr1 for next season.
-If I can't get Pepe on a free this summer, signing a CB will be a priority aswell. Manolas would be my biggest target to get.
-I also want to sign both Bernat and Semedo on as new fullbacks
-On the midfield I want Fabinho or N'Zonzi
-As a new winger I want one of Perisic, Willian or Costa
-As a new 10 I want one of James, Griezmann or B.Silva
-As a new striker I want one of Belotti, Morata or Lukaku
Team could look something like this:
------------Donnarumma------------------
Semedo----Bailly---Manolas-------Bernat
-----------------Fabinho-------------------
------------James-----Pogba-------------
Mkhitaryan-----Belotti-----------Perisic
---------------Romero------------------
Valencia---Axel-----Rojo---------Blind
----------------TFM--------------------
----------Pereira----Herrera----------
Mata---------Rashford--------Martial
J.Pereira, CBJ, Fellaini, Lingard in reserve
-Get rid of the old stock of players:
Out: Rooney, Zlatan, Carrick, Young
-Get rid of the deadwood players who don't add anything:
Out: Smalling, Jones, Darmian, Shaw
-I'd sort out the situation with DDG and let him leave but only if we are fairly compensated (I'd want a huge sum of money for him).
-Januzaj would also be a player I'd sell this summer together with Varela
-Pereira, Axel, TFM, CBJ are certain to be taken up next year in the first team and will all be getting regular playing opportunities.
-Next I would try to bring in Pepe on a free transfer
-I would make signing Donnarumma an absolutle priority, he is not yet on a big deal at ACM and is current contract is to expire next year in June, his agent is Mino Raiola. So the strategy is here to have Mino convince Donna to hold off on signing a new contract extension at ACM under the promise we will offer a contract with a much higher wage (currently ACM is offering only €3.5m a year to the young goalkeeper) and a big signing on fee for both Donna and Mino. Then put ACM under pressure to sell him this summer by offering around 50m for him which will be difficult for them to refuse if he Donna doesn't want to extend his current deal. Donna would be my nr 1 keeper with Romero back-up, in case the transfer doesn't go through Romero will be nr1 for next season.
-If I can't get Pepe on a free this summer, signing a CB will be a priority aswell. Manolas would be my biggest target to get.
-I also want to sign both Bernat and Semedo on as new fullbacks
-On the midfield I want Fabinho or N'Zonzi
-As a new winger I want one of Perisic, Willian or Costa
-As a new 10 I want one of James, Griezmann or B.Silva
-As a new striker I want one of Belotti, Morata or Lukaku
Team could look something like this:
------------Donnarumma------------------
Semedo----Bailly---Manolas-------Bernat
-----------------Fabinho-------------------
------------James-----Pogba-------------
Mkhitaryan-----Belotti-----------Perisic
---------------Romero------------------
Valencia---Axel-----Rojo---------Blind
----------------TFM--------------------
----------Pereira----Herrera----------
Mata---------Rashford--------Martial
J.Pereira, CBJ, Fellaini, Lingard in reserve
One British player left out of 22. Not good enough imo, even if the standard is poor.
Also, midfield looks very low on depth unless the youngsters you mention perform surprisingly well.
2, Axel and Rashford, with Lingard and CBJ accounted for that makes 4 british players in the team, not as much as we are used to but quality is more important than nationality for me.
Midfield has 7 players for 3 positions, I have alot of faith in TFM and Pereira to do a good job.
Forgot Axel is British. Still, you'd be selling a lot of experience leaving no British core at all, I think that would be a mistake. Personally I can see Carrick and Young staying for the dressing room experience if nothing else. Maybe one of the injured twins in defence too. (I'd like to keep Shaw too, but ....)
If I were on the board I'd write it into the managers contract that he must play attacking football that pleases the fans.
Jose invented pressing as much as U2 invented rock music. Pressing has been part of football long before Jose. None of Jose's sides have been known for it. He's a pragmatist not a purist hence his sides rely on hard work and graft to stop the opposition and score on counter. Jose's sides are happy to concede territory in games.
Players learn and improve throughout their careers and I don't buy into the thinking that you can't make someone better after the age of 18. Maybe in their 30s it's hard to retrain someone but largely our squad can be improved to pass quicker and tidier. Simple things like weight on the ball, playing in front of the player or to the player. These things are improved in the trainings. What else is the point of training? It's not pure coincidence that players like Di Maria, Kagawa, Mhikitaryan come into our side with huge reputation for creativity and look absolutely average(not blaming Jose for the first two obviously). Pep has visibly improved City's passing ability actually, but that in itself isn't going to win you the league although it sure will make your team look a lot more fluid in the attack.
That Man City game had nothing to do with us trying to press. We were largely outplayed in the midfield, due to much superior ball rention ability of City players while Lingard and Mhikitaryan couldn't even trap a ball. And then Rooney is Rooney.
Jose may have won a lot but like anything in the world he will need to evolve and we have seen glimpses of that this season. He tried different formations and the three at the back actually looked good for a change. But he is under a challenge world class coaches and I hope for our sake that he gets us to play his brand while also making us dominate against the bigger sides.
Great post. Feel the same. It is actually kind of heart breaking watching our wide players play knowing they are so much better than they are allowed to show.
I feel Martial when he has gone central recently has come alive, he looks strong, powerful, skips past people however he has just really lacked support.
Jose invented pressing high up the pitch? That's the biggest lie I've ever seen on a fan forum. One Pressing came from a hockey coach. Then it was mostly regarded as coming from Bielsa who Pep and Pochentino take their system from with tweaks.
Jose mostly presses in his defensive 3rd, he doesn't win the ball back high. To say he invented pressing is one of the funniest posts I've seen in a while.
I didn't say you can't improve a player after 18. There are lots of ways you can improve a player after 18. I just don't think you can take someone who is a fairly average passer at 19/20/21 and turn them into Xavi/Iniesta.
We did try and press City. I sat 20yards away in the East Stand and watched Zlatan and Rooney chase Bravo and the City back 4 around. You probably didn't notice we tried to press because it was such a pathetic effort. 2nd half we abandoned it.
On the pressing, Jose has encouraged his sides to press high when he has the raw materials. Not in the manner of a "Gegenpress" but more in a manner of aiming for the big front man and then pressing the 2nd ball quickly to gain fast territory