Are we really marking the ability of our targets on who else wants them? To only complain that we don’t get gems or cheap masterstrokes, because if ither teams were after them they’d be expensive thus worth it. But if they’re cheap & hardly anyone else wants them. They must be shite. Right. Got it.
Sofyan Amrabat | signs for United on loan
- Thread starter TheReligion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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He bought Malacia to compete with Shaw and he played him a few times. Lucky for Shaw he found his form - he had to.
Weghorst started nearly every game, what the feck are you on about?
If you’ve seen Amrabat play even once you’d see that he is easily good enough to challenge for a place in this team. Perhaps you think EtH is an idiot - he’d have to be if he wants to clear out three sub-par midfielders for peanuts and replace them with another just to keep the bench warm. None of what you’re saying makes any sense.
People commenting the other way are equally as ridiculous as your post.
I've seen him play about 6 times. World Cup games and europa conference final, he looked impressive but it's not enough to form an opinion either way on.
Add on top of that his stats suggest he will add an element of control to the midfield, something we severely lacked last season and ETH thinks he's a good fit, the people saying he's shite despite having not seen him play is laughable.
It's a squad player at best stop lying to yourself. He isn't starting games here if everyone is fit and you're fecking insane if you think Amrabat is a starter for United.
Weghorst started 10 games for us by the way
Fred's exit confirmed, get this lad on a plane!
I've only seen him at the World Cup but he looked impressive.
He reads the game very well, is an excellent passer and defensively solid.
Surely an excellent backup option to Casemiro and might start alongside him in tougher games.
He reads the game very well, is an excellent passer and defensively solid.
Surely an excellent backup option to Casemiro and might start alongside him in tougher games.
We've played Fred and McTominay for years, but apparently someone is insane if they think Amrabat will start for United
Why do you dislike him so much? It's clear there is something more behind this than what you say.
Football is a squad game now. Players are rotated and selected for a specific skill set against specific teams.
If we sign amrabat he will get a good share of the midfield minutes this season.
For the last time, they are ALL squad players. Never mind. I must have had a bad day but this “back up” and “bench” shit annoys me so much. EtH has said he wants proper competition for places in every position and he’s just not going to recruit anyone who doesn’t give him that. If we buy Amrabat he’ll start 25-30 games for us.
I don't know enough about Amrabat to know if he's good enough for us, but we definitely need someone to take some game time away from Casemiro - there's no way he can start every match at his age and maintain his exemplary standards, as we saw last season, so if we do sign someone capable of playing there, then they'll get some starts no doubt.
It is enough to form an opinion either way. In my opinion he’s not good enough and we shouldn’t be going anywhere near him.
If we do sign him and he becomes a United player I’ll give him a fair crack. He’s currently not a United player, he’s a Fiorentina player and I’m as entitled as you are to think any money spent on a player who isn’t good enough for our first team is a waste of that money.
My worry as well. Tifo even had a video about our age structure, everything behind the attack should be looked at if we don't want to be in a situation that in 2 or 3 years down the line we have to replace half the team at once.
I think, this is harsh and we shouldn't try to polarize the whole debate. The player isn't shit, he is a pretty good passer but there isn't much indicating that he can take over from Casemiro when he is out or needs a rest. PLus given Casemiros age, we certainly should think about a time post-Casemiro. Amrabat won't be it, Mainoo is also more known for his passing than for his defensive contribution. I find it almost a bit puzzling, that people waited and waited for defensively capable midfielder when watching years of McFred and as soon as Casemiro is there, this skillset seemingly isn't as important than passing for some reason.
If we want to evolve as a team and compete again, we have to stop comparing potential new players only with the once that are already there. Nobody gives a sh** if Amrabat is better than McTom or Fred, he is for sure. The question is, is he better or capable of playing against our rivals. And there have to be some question marks.
I'd say he isn't just a good passer or above average. He is really good at it, especially middle or long distances. This would help the team, no question about it, he would have been great as an Eriksen upgrade. But now that we brought in Mount, that spot is taken and as you indicate, we should'nt de-value defensive capabilties.
He has reportedly said that he liked La Liga and would like to play for Simeone earlier this summer. He will play for every club that offers him something good and Fiorentino would be idiots not trying to create a bidding war.
Nobody questions his passing stats (*not many at least). It is his defensive contribution that is in question which is a crucial thing if he is supposed to step in for Casemiro from time to time. People have to consider that the World Cup had him play in a pretty defensive Morocco team, which was very compact, especially in the center. At United, he'll be playing (based on what we've seen) more or less alone. And that has even Casemiro struggling. He can be the deepest midfielder to create, but then we probably can't play Bruno and Mount at the same time.
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This signing makes so much sense.
Firstly, I'm not even 100% convinced Casemiro can play as a lone DM behind Mount and Bruno all season, although that seems to be the plan. I am concerned about the lack of defensive stability and control in that midfield especially as Casemiro ages further. Casemiro's best attributes in a United have shirt have been shown in the opposition third, he's more of an attacking threat than he showed at Madrid but doesn't have quite the same energy to be breaking up play all game long and covering a ton of distance.
Amrabat could both deputise for Casemiro and play alongside him. If we're against City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Newcastle maybe even Villa, or a few other sides away from home, I'd feel a lot more confident with Amrabat starting instead or Mount (or Bruno. And one of them could play in the front 3 if absolutely needed). And that's before even taking in to account injuries, substitutes and squad rotation. The question isn't if we need Amrabat, the question is if we need two Amrabats?
Firstly, I'm not even 100% convinced Casemiro can play as a lone DM behind Mount and Bruno all season, although that seems to be the plan. I am concerned about the lack of defensive stability and control in that midfield especially as Casemiro ages further. Casemiro's best attributes in a United have shirt have been shown in the opposition third, he's more of an attacking threat than he showed at Madrid but doesn't have quite the same energy to be breaking up play all game long and covering a ton of distance.
Amrabat could both deputise for Casemiro and play alongside him. If we're against City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Newcastle maybe even Villa, or a few other sides away from home, I'd feel a lot more confident with Amrabat starting instead or Mount (or Bruno. And one of them could play in the front 3 if absolutely needed). And that's before even taking in to account injuries, substitutes and squad rotation. The question isn't if we need Amrabat, the question is if we need two Amrabats?
@BuzzKillington questioned his stats, as he claimed all of his stats were shit.
He isn't really a defensive midfielder, though. He is a deep lying playmaker who works hard, is tenacious and rough in his tackles which gives people the impression he is a defensive midfielder. That's not the case. He will be partnered with Casemiro in some matches, and perhaps replace in others. He has insane stamina, and was the defensive midfielder for Morocco and did well, but that has not been his task for Fiorentina, which is why he looks shit defensively.
17.
The question for me would be, is there maybe a better solution to get more value for the money. (FYI, I am totally not against Amrabat, would have wanted him as a progressor even over Mount. But now that the progressor spot is taken, we don't need another one.
See your point, but from my understanding, you have to choose one or the other argument (bolded part). Morocco was very compact, very defensive side. Pretty sure if possible, many of their players would have had great defensive stats in the tournament. For Fiorentina defensive stuff might not be his main priority because they need him as a progressor. But we do not.
What do you mean? We don't have a player that progresses the ball forward with passing. We have a decent ball carrier in Mount, but not someone that connects defensive, midfield and attack. I think that's one of the primary reasons we want him.
Think of him like a budget Frenkie de Jong.
Surely Liverpool will be in for him now if Lavia and Caicedo are both Chelsea-bound?
Different players, really. He'd be a good transfer if they didn't already pick up MacAllister, even if he's a bit more offensive-minded.
I just don't think you can put only progressors in your team without any midfielder, who is strong defensively. Not just "is decent and works hard". Even FDJ had Busquets playing with him for that. Or Kessie. We are one suspension or injury away from playing with Mount, Bruno, Eriksen or McTominay as our deepest midfielders. Amrabat would be better than those for sure. But we shouldn't just add players because they are better at something than the available ones, we have to plan the squad and make sure, there is personnel available for the required roles. Casemiro will need replace not too far down the road - use the Amrabat money and bring in an understudy for it. And lets not use Mainoo for this, all his reported strength lie in passing and progressing as well. We need balance. If we can add a DM who is capabable or even good at passing or carrying, I am happy, but lets not choose based on the b-note.
Gore is a DM
Does it matter? He will choose us over Liverpool every day if the week. They’re learning that they’re fishing in a different pond from the big boys now.
As I said in a previous post, there are an equal amounts of stats that show he isn’t good enough to be a good defensive midfielder for us. Nor is there stats to suggest he can transplant those passing stats to the premier league which is a big unknown for him.
He’d be ok for somebody, but not us.
I’d like a young, cheap, unknown wildcard or an expensive buy that I can see the logic in signing. Amrabat is neither of these.
We’ve spent all summer weeding out mediocrity to then import more of it. No thanks.
He isn’t, he’s good at breaking up the play though.
I don't get this. Do you not think Ten Hag, a very competent manager who has made us look like an actual team again, has a plan for how he is going to utilize him, and that he has his reasons for buying him?
I see you have a lot of arguments why you don't think he is worth it, but why do you think you know better than Ten Hag?
Underrated post, hits the nail squarely on the heid.
And he is 18 and his biggest cv entry is "played half decently on pre-season 2023". Plus even he stood out for ability on the ball and against the press. Don't get me wrong, I hope he will get a chance when the coaches think he is ready. But he isn't deemed to be such a talent that a club of Manchester Uniteds stature should adjust squad building for.
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@BuzzKillington on an internet forum knows better than Ten Hag. Well, alright then!
You are allowed to have your opinions, of course, or this place would be very boring, but how exactly do you know for sure he isn't going to be good for us?
I sense a feeling that our discussion starts to become a bit personal. Cool down, not interested in fighting with you. Just a supporter who experienced United for quite some time. Long enough that "the manager is always right" is a bullshit take most often used by simpletons who want to carry a strong opinion but miss a lot of understanding.
I never said, I knew better than ETH. If he wants him, he will have a plan. But we are talking about a manager who brought in Antony for almost 100 million pound and Weghorst. Lets not act as if there is nothing to debate. If a debate goes that close to you, lets just end it here.
Such a debate is pointless. At the end of the day, he can't know if he is good enough. But that applies to you too. Only thing different seems to be that your opinions holds more substance because "but the manager seems to want him". If that is an argument, you can erase half this forum.
Issue is, it simplifies the argument. I am following this thread since the early days and there is not group of people adamant, that he is shit. There is a group who think he is pretty good though and their arguments aren't very convincing in other peoples opinion.
So was Lavia 1 year ago. Look at him now.
All big talent start playing at 18 or earlier now - look at Barcelona, they played a 16 year old last game (he scored and assisted by the way).
What do you mean by "only progressors"?
I find that statement strange when we don't really have many progressors. The closest to it is Eriksen and he looks to be on the wain.
Be my guest and root for Gore or Mainoo if you want. Nothing against it. But then you have to give them time and chance to show themselves. And the fans should be patient as well. Personally, I am fine with that, don't think we are ready to compete anyway so lets go, go for youth. But lets not throw 30 million pound on an older player.
Apologies, didn't mean to come across as rude.
I agree, the argument that the manager is always right is bullshit, but we can see a clear change from Moyes, Mourinho and Solskjær to Ten Hag. He actually has a plan for the players he gets in, and more often than not, they've been good. We all would like a world class midfielder, but the reality is that there's not one available. We have different types of midfielders, but what we don't have, is someone that can control the tempo and is a great passer.
By getting Amrabat, we have that option and means we can change set-ups and tactical approaches, and actually control matches with possession and passing. I genuinely can't remember the last time we could do that.
Let’s discontinue giving minutes to dross as VDB or Scott. If their minutes go to Mainoo and Gore, it will be enough to develop them relatively quickly. But Amrabat is a very good player and will be competing for a starting spot (or be a 1st midfield sub at worst)
Hmm agreed. Understand the confusion as progressor is another term which most people have different understandings for. A progressor for me is somebody, who will move the ball forwards, connecting defense and attack. This is usually done by either passing or dribbling. Obviously no player is only a progressor or only a defensive midfielder (or attacking midfielder) but different players have different skill sets and strength profiles and while, as you say, Eriksen is pretty good at passing, he is seen as a progressor. Mount is good at passing, good at carrying, he'll suit a progressor role. Just like Bruno, who is also good at passing (if he wants to). Granted, Mount is a bit of an unknown to me, I consider him as more of an attacking midfielder, I hope he can show that he will help us moving the ball up the field.
Amrabat is great at passing. He is the main progressor for Fiorentina. Casemiro is also decent at passing but he is also great at defending, tackling, interceptions, heading, positioning. If we want a deputy for Casemiro, we should bring in somebody, who ticks the defending boxes (not to the same degree but at least to a good level and if he ticks more boxes even better). If Amrabat would do this, I wouldn't be worried at all. But there is nothing that suggests he is.That doesn't make him a bad player, but it doesn't make him a defensive midfielder.
17 appearances 10 starts I believe
I just wish we were after a younger player. I’ve made it known my first choice would be Lavia, I generally believe he’ll be at a similar level as Caicedo in 2 years for half the price.We've played Fred and McTominay for years, but apparently someone is insane if they think Amrabat will start for United
Why do you dislike him so much? It's clear there is something more behind this than what you say.
We're good. As I said, just don't like it when it feels like stuff gets personal.
I agree. BUT, as a manager he potentially doesn't look as far into the future as I hope the Technical Director (or whoever the Chief Executive of Squad Planning is). No doubt adding Amrabat will be good for us. But adding Maguire for 80 million was good for us as well. Until we've seen that money has been burned. Just want to avoid a situation like this.
True. I agree, he would bring something new to the table. The thing is, I hope ETH has a certain plan how he wants us to play. Last season and pre-season, I didn't have the impression, that the system has a DLP. It has Casemiro as a holder and two free 8s who are positioned pretty high. A DLP certainly has its uses over the season. But if we add Amrabat, we'd still be without a player who can step in for Casemiro. In terms of defensive contributions. And this, to me, is a more urgent issue, than adding a player who seems to be good option for certain games.
Lets dis-continue giving those minutes to VDB or Scott. I am completely with you on this. But also: don't bring in players just because they are a bit better than the shitty ones you have. If the objective is "better than VDB or McFred" we could have went for Kessie, we could go for McGinn or many others. But the objective should be to bring in a player who can fullfill a certain role in ETHs plan how he wants us to play. If he now wants a DLP, it would be interesting to understand his plan because we didn't really have one last season. And in pre-season. And DLPs usually do not play on their own in midfield and shoulder defensive responsibility. Except for the best ones like Rodri or Busquets back in the day.
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Are some on here just going to completely ignore that Amrabat was probably the outstanding midfielder at the World Cup? IMO, he is a hidden gem and has flown under the radar, probably because of his nationality. No doubt a reason he is underrated so much on here. If he was English / French he’d be on the tip of everyone’s tongue.
Maybe he's not great defensively, I don't know - I'd tend to be a bit careful about some of the defensive stats because I think they're so team reliant. If a player scores high for progressive passing, completion and passes completed I'm generally interested in that because it says something about the technical quality of the player irrespective of the role. They'll still change but you generally don't conjure up those statistics without some technical merit as a midfielder. Same for assists, goals etc.
But a lot of the time an "intercepting" or "tackling" stat isn't so convincing to me as I'd expect to see that change depending on the propensity of a team to put players in the way of opportunities to do that. It doesn't really take much of a swing in those statistics to make them appear good relative to his peers compared to the current situation. I'd be interested to know how these sorts of stats generally translate for players. It's not all about stats of course, but a lot of the ideas about him defensively seem to stem from this and I'm just making the point that based on his experience of the player ETH may rate his defensive ability.
It could also be a bit more subtle than "Casemiro deputy." Maybe that's more of a caf characterisation of what he's looking for than reality. Because he may simply want an option of a different style to makeup different arrangements in his team structure. It's not all about resting Casemiro, we know ETH isn't a big rester of players so I reckon his thinking may not be as pragmatic as "I need somebody to stand in for Casemiro." If you have a good deep playmaker then you can solidify the midfield alongside Casemiro in some fixtures. That works as a concept, in fact Real Madrid used it for years in surrounding Casemiro with high class progressors of the ball from deep areas. He had way less responsibility for that than he does at United where his added responsibilites have been a bit of a mixed bag in terms of success.
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