SOS to Rio - Who on our coaching staff is training the defence?

[Marcus]

I think there is a parallel with Ole and Wenger (in a sense). George Graham trained Arsenal's defence and had them working great as a unit. Wenger came in and freed the team to play attacking football so they did well. Mourinho also trained our defence well and Ole brought joy and freedom which resulted in the bounce. I think Ole as a former striker has no clue on how defenders should operate. So who on our coaching staff is doing this? Time for Rio to step in.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

You can have the best coaching staff in the world, but it can't help fix mistakes. The first goal with Maguire's missed header and the 3rd goal with Bailly's missed pass are hopefully silly mistakes that were a one off. With that being said, sometimes this insistence in playing out from the back is just asking for trouble, and that's down to coaching. We also need Bailly to anticipate more. he is too reactionary. It also doesn't help that it doesn't appear that DeGea is very vocal. he has the best vision on the field and should be directing traffic back there. Prime example was Aurier's goal today. A shout to Pogba and Aurier is picked up before he makes the run behind Pogba. Still doesn't excuse Pogba for turning his back on his man, but a vocal keeper would have helped stop that play before it even happened...

 

[Red_toad]

It's not just the defence, it's the midfield as well, if they do not track runners then the defence gets out numbered. Has been happening for seasons on end, much like the right wing issue.

 

[POF]

I think there is a parallel with Ole and Wenger (in a sense). George Graham trained Arsenal's defence and had then working great as a unit. Wenger came in and freed the team to play attacking football so they did well. Mourinho also trained our defence well and Ole brought joy and freedom which resulted in the bounce. I think Ole as a former striker has no clue on how defenders should operate. So who on our coaching staff is doing this? Time for Rio to step in.

Rio?

Last time I saw a defensive shambles like that, Rio was the one marshalling the defence.

United had a very good defensive record last season under Ole. The current United coaching set up has far more experience coaching a backline than Rio.

 

[clarkydaz]

Remember before Liverpool signed VVD and they had Lovren fecking up every week being a laughing stock? Thats what we are now

 

[Sky1981]

The bucks stop at the manager.

A good manager delegates, but football isn't like American Football where 2 coach can work by themselves on their own, you need unity. The midfield/defence/attack in one seamless transition.

Defense coach can't formulate a defence plan without altering the whole formation. If Ole wants to play high press then there's nothing Rio could do, he could drill the routines, 1 on 1, 2 on 1, etc but when you're already beaten on grander scheme tactically it'll only about time you're going to lose.

Football is a very nuanced game, when your center backs are weak, you design a formation that protects them, not exposing them, when your backside is secured, you will then moved on to how to best counter your opponent. Jose targeting shaw as the weakest link is a valid strategy, any manager worth their salt would have expected that and develop a counter measure, instead of scratching their head and blamed it on Shaw.

 

[Jonesno.8]

Remember before Liverpool signed VVD and they had Lovren fecking up every week being a laughing stock? Thats what we are now

Ah come on, Lovren was World Class............remember he told us so......

 

[FrankDrebin]

It would help if United had a collective set-up, though.

Our team has a real lack of intent and determination in its pressing. We simply dont put the opposition under pressure from the front, middle or back and this has been going on under Moyes,LVG,Jose and now Ole.

What makes it disappointing is the fact that in the first few games under Ole's it looked, for all intense and purposes, like that was the new direction we were heading.
There seemed to be a real fresh incentive to close down the opposition quickly before they grew confidence into the game.
Now that idea seems to be completely dead in the water as we're simply a bunch of ball watchers for the majority of the match now.

Maguire, Matic, Pogba and Martial are not only poor at the press but they simply dont have the stamina for it.
We have certain individuals who are decent at pressing in Bruno, Fred (when featuring) ,Rashford, Shaw and AWB due to their high stamina levels but it really needs to be a collective which it obviously isn't.
So that's one basic issue right there.

 

[Raw]

The feck kind of qualifications does Rio have? Just because they were a good player doesn't mean they'd be a good coach.

 

[FrankDrebin]

A good defence starts from top to bottom. If you have your forwards put pressure on their CB's and your midfield put pressure on their central players then it should ideally leave your defence doing a decent mop-up job.
We're statues without the ball.

Edit: Before yesterdays game, the majority of the fans said Spurs will walk through our midfield and that was the case.
There were obviously individual defensive errors at the back but its simply far,far too simple to ask for a new defence when we have a glaring weakness uptop and in the middle if we want to press the opposition.

 

[kouroux]

A good defence starts from top to bottom. If you have your forwards put pressure on their CB's and your midfield put pressure on their central players then it should ideally leave your defence doing a decent mop-up job.
We're statues without the ball.

This is the key right here, collectively we press in a "1 at a time" system, it's not coordinated and players (often Bruno) waste their efforts in doing so.

 

[romufc]

We can be brilliant at defending but when your Captain and so called leader makes mistakes for their goals, what can you do? 6/6 goals were silly individual errors

1st goal - Maguire to blame 3 times. He made first mistake heading the ball into Bailly, then into the box, then fouled Luke Shaw - 3 Fecking mistakes in 1 goal.

2nd goal - Needless foul and so passive to let Kane take the freekick quick.

4th goal - Nutmegs on the edge.

5th Goal - Pogba not tracking

6th goal - Pogba doing Pogba things.

Ole needs to show some bottle and drop some of these players who clearly are struggling. If not, he has no excuse when he gets sacked.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Our team still looks like a bunch of strangers rocked up together, I don’t see anything to suggest otherwise, I thought we would really press teams and pin them and set traps, but we are so bad at that.

 

[FrankDrebin]

United just have a fundamental lack of character and endeavour.
We have the flair but not the graft.

You defend from the top to the bottom without the ball. If you want that ball back you have to fecking work for it as a collective.
This seem to be the basics that the likes of Rio and Neville seem to completely ignore.
They seem far more concerned with us buying a whole new back-four instead of looking at the teams overall shape without the ball.
Maybe that would naturally lead to criticising Ole and that's a road they simply don't want to go down ? who knows.

 

[Mark Pawelek]

The bucks stop at the manager.

A good manager delegates, but football isn't like American Football where 2 coach can work by themselves on their own, you need unity. The midfield/defence/attack in one seamless transition.

Defense coach can't formulate a defence plan without altering the whole formation. If Ole wants to play high press then there's nothing Rio could do, he could drill the routines, 1 on 1, 2 on 1, etc but when you're already beaten on grander scheme tactically it'll only about time you're going to lose.

Football is a very nuanced game, when your center backs are weak, you design a formation that protects them, not exposing them, when your backside is secured, you will then moved on to how to best counter your opponent. Jose targeting shaw as the weakest link is a valid strategy, any manager worth their salt would have expected that and develop a counter measure, instead of scratching their head and blamed it on Shaw.

If Ole wants to play a high press - should he have bought Maguire? As I said at the time: Maguire is hardly rapid. Because of Maguire, I'm losing my faith in Ole. Not just last week, but long before. It's not just Maguire: Matic isn't fast enough either. Pogba's pace isn't Olympic and he's sometimes sloppy at defending. Love to have LVG coaching the defense right now: making Smalling and Jones look world class!

 

[meamth]

It would help if United had a collective set-up, though.

Our team has a real lack of intent and determination in its pressing. We simply dont put the opposition under pressure from the front, middle or back and this has been going on under Moyes,LVG,Jose and now Ole.

What makes it disappointing is the fact that in the first few games under Ole's it looked, for all intense and purposes, like that was the new direction we were heading.
There seemed to be a real fresh incentive to close down the opposition quickly before they grew confidence into the game.
Now that idea seems to be completely dead in the water as we're simply a bunch of ball watchers for the majority of the match now.

Maguire, Matic, Pogba and Martial are not only poor at the press but they simply dont have the stamina for it.
We have certain individuals who are decent at pressing in Bruno, Fred (when featuring) ,Rashford, Shaw and AWB due to their high stamina levels but it really needs to be a collective which it obviously isn't.
So that's one basic issue right there.

Only in the games when we're losing, yes.

But I've seen enough last season how many mistakes we forced the opposition to score goals. During our winning run, there's no complaint of our work rate upfront, the pressing was good.

It's only this season and a handful games at the end of last season I'm seeing this complaints again.

 

[Godfather]

I'd accept our defence to be vulnerable if our attack was actually free flowing and attractive to watch. Like in Klopps first years at Pool. We don't have that though. Our football is shit and we still concede goals. Pretty wank combination.

 

[Gopher Brown]

It's not just the defence, it's the midfield as well, if they do not track runners then the defence gets out numbered. Has been happening for seasons on end, much like the right wing issue.

This has a lot to do with it. Matic is immobile and not a ‘destroyer’ - more of a DLP. Pogba thinks defensive work is beneath a genius of his calibre. Greenwood is a striker playing on the wing and has very little to contribute defensively - Juan Mata for all his flaws would not have allowed Solly March to be free at the back post 7-8 times in that Brighton game.

We need a two proper midfielders in front of the centre backs and a right winger who knows how to defend.

 

[clarkydaz]

If Ole wants to play a high press - should he have bought Maguire? As I said at the time: Maguire is hardly rapid. Because of Maguire, I'm losing my faith in Ole. Not just last week, but long before. It's not just Maguire: Matic isn't fast enough either. Pogba's pace isn't Olympic and he's sometimes sloppy at defending. Love to have LVG coaching the defense right now: making Smalling and Jones look world class!

Also trying to play out from the back with DeGea

 

[mitchmouse]

You can have the best coaching staff in the world, but it can't help fix mistakes. The first goal with Maguire's missed header and the 3rd goal with Bailly's missed pass are hopefully silly mistakes that were a one off. With that being said, sometimes this insistence in playing out from the back is just asking for trouble, and that's down to coaching. We also need Bailly to anticipate more. he is too reactionary. It also doesn't help that it doesn't appear that DeGea is very vocal. he has the best vision on the field and should be directing traffic back there. Prime example was Aurier's goal today. A shout to Pogba and Aurier is picked up before he makes the run behind Pogba. Still doesn't excuse Pogba for turning his back on his man, but a vocal keeper would have helped stop that play before it even happened...

I've lost count of how many years people have talked about "silly" and "individual" mistakes. Why don't other clubs have this continuing problem. Eitehr our lo aren't good enough or are being coached to do things they aren't comfortable with

 

[Red_toad]

I've lost count of how many years people have talked about "silly" and "individual" mistakes. Why don't other clubs have this continuing problem. Eitehr our lo aren't good enough or are being coached to do things they aren't comfortable with

What makes you think other clubs don’t have individual errors on a regular basis? Anyone who thinks other players from other clubs don’t make errors needs to go wobble their heads. It’s United so our players are always more scrutinised and critiqued.

 

[mitchmouse]

What makes you think other clubs don’t have individual errors on a regular basis? Anyone who thinks other players from other clubs don’t make errors needs to go wobble their heads. It’s United so our players are always more scrutinised and critiqued.

so fans of other clubs don't notice? or just keep quiet? this is just a feeble excuse: a mistake is a mistake... and if you keep allowing to happen, that's an even bigger mistake

 

[Sky1981]

This has a lot to do with it. Matic is immobile and not a ‘destroyer’ - more of a DLP. Pogba thinks defensive work is beneath a genius of his calibre. Greenwood is a striker playing on the wing and has very little to contribute defensively - Juan Mata for all his flaws would not have allowed Solly March to be free at the back post 7-8 times in that Brighton game.

We need a two proper midfielders in front of the centre backs and a right winger who knows how to defend.

If ole is a good manager he'd know his tactics wont work with the current personnel. He'd device something else for the time being.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Mourinho had nothing to do with a defense with 2 players who were not even around under him and 2 more he didn't fancy at all performing well for a full season.

 

[Red_toad]

so fans of other clubs don't notice? or just keep quiet? this is just a feeble excuse: a mistake is a mistake... and if you keep allowing to happen, that's an even bigger mistake

All players make mistakes. You think it’s only United players, then you need to get out more. The best centre half in the league has made numerous mistakes over the last year, but it’s not really highlighted as he plays for the pool.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I've lost count of how many years people have talked about "silly" and "individual" mistakes. Why don't other clubs have this continuing problem. Eitehr our lo aren't good enough or are being coached to do things they aren't comfortable with

If you seriously think that other clubs don't make silly individual mistakes then you obviously haven't been paying attention.

But here's the thing. An old employer once said to me, "if you're going to f*ck up, f*ck up big, because it's the little mistakes that drive me nuts".

In that case, "little" mistakes were things like making sure to order a burger with no onions if the customers asks for no onions. If you forgot, then it drove him nuts and he would lose his sh*t. But if you drop a tray of drinks on a guy, then he's not going to be upset because that's a big mistake (as long as it doesn't become a habit)

So how does this tie in with Manchester United? Let's look at the game vs Tottenham. For the first goal, Harry misses a simple header. For me, this was a "big mistake" and not the type of thing that we really need to worry about happening on the regular. And on the 3rd goal, Bailly passes the ball right to a Tottenham player deep in our end. Again, another "big f*ck up* that likely won't be happening regularly. Those ones didn't bother me as much. Had a laugh (and a cry) and got on with it. If it becomes the norm, then different story...

But the ones that were the "little f*ck ups" that drive me crazy were things like on the second goal where Bailly didn't mark Son. He watched him go right past him and then reacted and started chasing him. By that point it was already too late. Same with on the 5th goal. Pogba doesn't pick up Aurier as he just runs right past him. These are simple mistakes that are easily avoidable

 

[Class of 63]

In an ideal world the goalkeeper would be training the defence when he's on the pitch, till such a time as they don't need it, sadly DDG ain't the man for the gig

 

[Garethw]

The team just needs to get back to basics. Ole wants to play the ball out from the back but that is creating so many mistakes in the defence. Sometimes it’s ok just to kick the fecking ball out!!!

 

[Number32]

When Ole was a Caretaker Manager, Mike Phelan is the one who set up the defense. You could saw Mike was actively shout at the touchline to make everyone on their position when being attacked.
But when they were appointed as permanent, Mike seems stop to organize and I can see different system between Mike and Ole, then everything seems disorganized in defense like:
- Crap offside trap
- Fullbacks are sit too deep to stop a cross
- Awful communication
- Being afraid to switch position
- Tight man-marking but forget the zone marking

If Ole want to play the high pressing game, McT-Fred should start every game in midfield. They are young and hungry for the ball, drop Pogba and Matic on the bench because they are too passive.
We could lost creativity, but we can cover that with Bruno and VdB at #10, and attacking fullbacks.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

We train?

 

[Crashoutcassius]

We had one of Europe's best defences last season

Our periodly very poor attacking is quite obviously coaching , but defence for me is mistakes and players rather than coaching. Pogba really struggles to shield the defence, Shaw seems to never be switched on and Maguire seems mentally different this season. Obviously lindelof and Bailly aren't to the standard but they are decent and we can get by with them if we solve the rest, as last season showed

 

[mitchmouse]

All players make mistakes. You think it’s only United players, then you need to get out more. The best centre half in the league has made numerous mistakes over the last year, but it’s not really highlighted as he plays for the pool.

no.. my point is that other players/teams make mistakes. we go on as if it is just us. our problem is we are not good enough, we don't have enough top-class players and we aren't coached properly. that's the problem... not "individual errors"

 

[Tom Cato]

I think there is a parallel with Ole and Wenger (in a sense). George Graham trained Arsenal's defence and had them working great as a unit. Wenger came in and freed the team to play attacking football so they did well. Mourinho also trained our defence well and Ole brought joy and freedom which resulted in the bounce. I think Ole as a former striker has no clue on how defenders should operate. So who on our coaching staff is doing this? Time for Rio to step in.

Unsurprisingly Ole has stated that he indeed knows less about defense than actual defenders. He works finishing with the strikers and lets the coaching staff manage defenders. Playing to your strengths and all that.

 

[Revaulx]

In an ideal world the goalkeeper would be training the defence when he's on the pitch, till such a time as they don't need it, sadly DDG ain't the man for the gig

True, except I don’t think there should ever be a time they don’t need it. Edwin’s withering glares were directed at our best defence ever.

The whole thing isn’t helped by DDG’s distribution having turned to shit since Franz Hoek was sacked.

 

[Marcus]

When Ole was a Caretaker Manager, Mike Phelan is the one who set up the defense. You could saw Mike was actively shout at the touchline to make everyone on their position when being attacked.
But when they were appointed as permanent, Mike seems stop to organize and I can see different system between Mike and Ole, then everything seems disorganized in defense like:
- Crap offside trap
- Fullbacks are sit too deep to stop a cross
- Awful communication
- Being afraid to switch position
- Tight man-marking but forget the zone marking

If Ole want to play the high pressing game, McT-Fred should start every game in midfield. They are young and hungry for the ball, drop Pogba and Matic on the bench because they are too passive.
We could lost creativity, but we can cover that with Bruno and VdB at #10, and attacking fullbacks.

Agree with McT and Fred combo to protect the defence. That's a base we can build on and the attackers can just get on with it.

 

[kouroux]

True, except I don’t think there should ever be a time they don’t need it. Edwin’s withering glares were directed at our best defence ever.

The whole thing isn’t helped by DDG’s distribution having turned to shit since Franz Hoek was sacked.

For me, it will never make sense how DDG's kicking has gotten this bad. No matter who is sacked, once you have a skill, you should be able to replicate consistently. It's kicking the ball after all, not that complicated

 

[Class of 63]

True, except I don’t think there should ever be a time they don’t need it. Edwin’s withering glares were directed at our best defence ever.

The whole thing isn’t helped by DDG’s distribution having turned to shit since Franz Hoek was sacked.

It's mainly fitness related but the defence isn't getting the protection they need/should expect at the moment and the defenders are unsure if they should go to the ball or drop off, for me De Gea should be making that decision for them, and pulling the rest of the defence into shape to cover for the defender who has committed to attack the ball, when the midfield is up to speed the defenders can go back to instinct.

And as for distribution, if it was good enough for the Ajax and the Dutch national teams keepers in the 70's to hit the furthest man away from them at every opportunity and build up the play behind it, it's good enough for me, none of this current nonsense whether we have the players to play that way(we don't) or not, just get rid of the bloody thing!

 

[johanovic]

Had a look at the United website and quite pathetic to see our defensive options. It has 12 players + Telles not there yet. Lindelof,Bailly,Jones,Rojo,Dalot,Fosu-Menash at least have no future as United players if you look at ability alone. Serious question marks over Shaw and Tuanzebe. Maguire has hardly improved as a player at United has he? Bissaka is a good defensive fullback but lacking attacking ability. Willams, Mengi and of course Laird are promising. I wonder what the salary cost of those players are and what are you getting in return? There I´m talking about Lindelof,Bailly,Jones,Dalot and Rojo. I could belive they are costing around 400k per week total at least for substandard players. It´s just plain to see that we lack at least 2 centrebacks with one of them being left footed. Hopefully young Laird can overcome his injury problems and Willams can be the second and third RB options. It will be interesting to see what impact Telles makes with Shaw as back up player. But Lindelof,Bailly,Jones and Rojo are hardly gonna improve as defenders any time soon and propably most of them lacking the ability to do so. The failure to buy a CB in the last window will hurt us but being a beliver in youth I think Mengi deserves a shot. He can hardly be worse than those clowns and I´ve been quite impressed when I´ve seen him play. But of course that is a big step up for a young lad but that´s a big part of United history to give young players a chance.
Having a prober defensive coach would help like when Queiroz came to United. I would add Keano to the fold also for the purpose of keeping those primadonnas we have on their toes.

 

[Revaulx]

For me, it will never make sense how DDG's kicking has gotten this bad. No matter who is sacked, once you have a skill, you should be able to replicate consistently. It's kicking the ball after all, not that complicated

Pre-Jose there was a lot more variety to his distribution; kicking it long was just one of the components. I imagine Jose instructed him just to hoof it, and the loss of Blind at CB drastically reduced his options in any case.

And as for distribution, if it was good enough for the Ajax and the Dutch national teams keepers in the 70's to hit the furthest man away from them at every opportunity and build up the play behind it, it's good enough for me, none of this current nonsense whether we have the players to play that way(we don't) or not, just get rid of the bloody thing!

I'm not sure the Dutch hoofed it long "at every opportunity", though they certainly did (as did DDG) when it was the best option. We clearly haven't got the players to play out from the back; Shaw maybe, but he has other issues.

 

[harms]

We had one of Europe's best defences last season

That's a very broad definition of "best".