Strongest revisionism of the last decade?

They were, by far, the best squad in the world and had won the CL 2 years prior. The 2008 United team is one of the best United teams of all time and all they could do against 2008 Barca was park the bus at home and go through from a Scholes wonder strike.

Finishing 3rd in La Liga means nothing for the potential of the squad. Madrid won the CL for a 3rd time in a row last season while finishing 3rd in the league yet somehow they are the best.

Sorting out the Ronaldinho party clique, waiting for Messi to mature and getting Iniesta and Messi injury-free wasn't rocket science.

Not sure anybody in 2008 would have agreed they were the best squad in the world, let alone by far. You are basically confirming how revisionist everyone is about that team.

They were dominated by Real Madrid who weren’t even that good that season the very same month they lost to United.

They had won CL on the back of Ronaldinho’s performances, he was clearly not at the same level in 2008 and they had no clue how to get back to the same level. Pep’s job was far from easy.
 
Last edited:
The idea that Maradona carried Argentina to World Cup glory on his own is the biggest revisionism of the entire sport IMO. Obviously, he was incredible, but people seem to ignore that this was basically Argentina's best ever team, or at least very close to it. Valdano, Passarella, Bochini, Burruchaga, etc are absolute world class stars of the day. There were several players in that squad who had won the Copa Libertadores in the previous two seasons, like Ruggeri and Borghi for example. This was not some bunch of plumbers being carried, they were an exceptional squad with a blend of youthful talent, big game experience and know-how of winning titles and cups.
 
Except, Maradona had a huge impact on the final. The Germans changed tactics throughout the game while playing a super packed 5-3-2 where one of the midfielders was actually a CB and the other was the great Lothar Matthaus. Maradona came out on top despite all that. It's actually naive to say he didn't have a great final. He literally had an answer for every German move.

It's actually Matthaus who had very little to offer offensively because of the man marking duties. He pretty much made the greatest B2B player of all time into a full time DM in that game.

https://www.stats.com/industry-anal...t-mystery-messi-maradona-argentina-world-cup/

The help Messi and Maradona received or didn’t receive doesn’t end there, and the truth is likely that neither player won or lost the World Cup for his country. It’s indisputable that Maradona outperformed what was expected of the chances he had throughout the tournament. But in the final, the highlights and the data will tell you his teammates filled that role. His offensive contribution was the fifth highest among Argentina players in the match behind Valdano, Julio Olarticoechea, Enrique and Burruchaga. Burruchaga, Valdano and José Brown scored a goal each with a combined xG not quite reaching 0.5, meaning they scored about 2.5 goals more than expected among the three of them. In other words, in one match, the trio nearly equaled the expected goal plus-minus that Maradona posted in the five-match sample (+2.9).

Meanwhile, jump ahead to 2014 and Gonzalo Higuaín accounted for well over half of the scoring opportunity the ’14 team had with a 0.4 xG. His xG total was hundredths of a goal from the goal-scoring ’86 trio, so nearly identical. But Higuaín had nothing to show for it aside from an early goal called back for offside and two near misses that, on their own, each had a higher conversion likelihood than any of the three goals scored by Argentina in the ’86 final. His xG was actually a shade higher than 2014 Germany’s leader, Benedikt Höwedes, who, you might recall, missed Germany’s best chance of the match when he hit the post with a header off a corner near the end of the first half.

So Maradona not only had a more active midfield than Messi in the final, but he also had teammates finishing when he wasn’t. Which brings us to consider one chance from each match, on which Maradona and Messi played supporting roles.
 
The heroic legend of dragging Argentina to a Copa America final while Brazil are shite. It's what every kid dreams of. What an achievement.

It’s no finishing third in a group with Iceland, Austria and Hungary, before beating Croatia (aet), Poland (penalties) and Wales. I’ll give you that.
 
If you look at all the clubs in Europe’s top 5 leagues in 2010, PSG would be probably bottom 20% in terms of history. Mainly because most of the other clubs have 70 years more of it.
Possible. Depends which criteria you want to use to compare 'history'.
The "legends" (how many clubs had Ballon D'Or winners?) they had before the takeover and their sole European trophy should be better than bottom 20% for what it's worth.
 
Last edited:

Not a fan of such quotes from random articles, especially when I have watched the game enough times to know why Maradona's teammates performed better.

Also, its not like Diego had it all easy. They were 2-0 up and the Germans drew back to 2-2 with some bad defending from Argentines, only for Maradona to rise up again to assist the winner.

Comparing that to Messi's final hiding behind Higuain's miss is simply insulting the greatest WC performance of all time.

Diego in fact was never as prolific a scorer like Messi. You would expect a goal out of Messi and an assist/move out of Diego most of the times and not the other way round.
 
I don’t think this is forgotten. Most people who remember them remember that World Cup being a grind. The Spain team that won the 08 Euros under Aragones were a joy to watch. I loved watching them play. Under Del Bosque Spain were painful to watch.

The idea that Spain were so great to watch in 2008 is revisionism in itself. Apart from the two games against Russia they weren’t particularly exciting.
 
Not a fan of such quotes from random articles, especially when I have watched the game enough times to know why Maradona's teammates performed better.

Also, its not like Diego had it all easy. They were 2-0 up and the Germans drew back to 2-2 with some bad defending from Argentines, only for Maradona to rise up again to assist the winner.

Comparing that to Messi's final hiding behind Higuain's miss is simply insulting the greatest WC performance of all time.

Diego in fact was never as prolific a scorer like Messi. You would expect a goal out of Messi and an assist/move out of Diego most of the times and not the other way round.

Nonetheless, the difference between a Maradona assist and a Messi assist, in both finals, respectively, is down to the individual on the end of that chance. If Maradona's assist was missed and conversely Messi's potential assist was scored, it would likewise be down to the individual the chance fell to.

We're not talking about the greatest WC performance as a whole. We're talking about the WC final performance. The one Messi is solely judged on. Statistically, Maradona was the fifth most productive player in that final for Argentina, which proves the point that his teammates performance were much more improved in that final in comparison to Messi's teammates in his respective final.
 
This one might not be popular, but...

Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez were not the all-conquering fluid-as-feck trio that a lot of people on here seem to remember. They all bagged goals because they were class, but as a unit they didn’t look all that cohesive.
Don't know about the trio but I'm 1000% sure Rooney and Ronaldo were fluid as feck and had amazing chemistry. Am also sure this isn't a false memory. Rooney also had great chemistry with Tevez. If two thirds of the trio were fluid and had great chemistry how can one say the trio as a whole weren't fluid? Things got a bit diluted when Berbatov came along
 
Barcelona were that conquering, all time great dominant team before Pep took over in 2008. The reality is they finished 3rd the season before, were eliminated by Man Utd from CL in the semifinal after a lackluster performance and got spanked in quite a few league games (9 losses and they only got 67 points). They were in dire need of change.

That ones fair. They did have a pretty great team a couple of years before though, just needed a bit of refreshing
 
Nonetheless, the difference between a Maradona assist and a Messi assist, in both finals, respectively, is down to the individual on the end of that chance. If Maradona's assist was missed and conversely Messi's potential assist was scored, it would likewise be down to the individual the chance fell to.

We're not talking about the greatest WC performance as a whole. We're talking about the WC final performance. The one Messi is solely judged on. Statistically, Maradona was the fifth most productive player in that final for Argentina, which proves the point that his teammates performance was much more improved in that final in comparison to Messi's teammates in his respective final.
The annoying thing with this particular Messi fanboi excuse to lay all the blame of Argentina's final loss on Higuain is Messi missed the best chance of the damned match. The EXACT chance he scored vs the same keeper 7months later whilst playing for Barca....
 
The annoying thing with this particular Messi fanboi excuse to lay all the blame of Argentina's final loss on Higuain is Messi missed the best chance of the damned match. The EXACT chance he scored vs the same keeper 7months later whilst playing for Barca....

Regardless of what we might think about statistics, etc, the following is very telling, and not simply down to one solitary miss, but a multiplicity of chances not converted.

Meanwhile, jump ahead to 2014 and Gonzalo Higuaín accounted for well over half of the scoring opportunity the ’14 team had with a 0.4 xG. His xG total was hundredths of a goal from the goal-scoring ’86 trio, so nearly identical. But Higuaín had nothing to show for it aside from an early goal called back for offside and two near misses that, on their own, each had a higher conversion likelihood than any of the three goals scored by Argentina in the ’86 final. His xG was actually a shade higher than 2014 Germany’s leader, Benedikt Höwedes, who, you might recall, missed Germany’s best chance of the match when he hit the post with a header off a corner near the end of the first half.
 
If I'm correct, Maradona had a masterful world cup in '86 right up until the actual final itself, in which he was decidedly less influential. It's ironically the same argument used to beat Messi over the head when he didn't single-handedly win them the WC final in 2014.

The main difference being that 86 Argentina showed up when Maradona didn't single-handedly win them the game, whereas, '14 Argentina didn't show up when Messi similarly didn't win them the game.

Historical revisionism at its finest.
If anything, there's a revisionism around just how good Maradona's World Cup in an effort to downplay it so that it doesn't tower over what everyone from the current generation has produced in a major international tournament.
Except, Maradona had a huge impact on the final. The Germans changed tactics throughout the game while playing a super packed 5-3-2 where one of the midfielders was actually a CB and the other was the great Lothar Matthaus. Maradona came out on top despite all that. It's actually naive to say he didn't have a great final. He literally had an answer for every German move.

It's actually Matthaus who had very little to offer offensively because of the man marking duties. He pretty much made the greatest B2B player of all time into a full time DM in that game.
This. Even if you crunch it down, he won the free-kick for the opener, assisted the late winner, and then burst through the West German defence only to be wiped out by two challenges that would be automatic red cards today.
 
With Portugal? You're damn right it isn't.

Croatia aside, Portugal has more talent than any of those teams. It’s nonsense to pretend that Portugal is some plucky underdog and Argentina is a top class team. While it’s clear Argentina has had by far the better forward line over the past decade, their midfield and defence has been for the most part trash. Even if you take Messi and Ronaldo out of the equation, the two sides have been pretty well matched since both players broke through.
 
That Arsenal didn't compete for trophies post 2005 until the 2014 FA cup win.

We were absolutely up there some seasons in the title race, 07/08, 09/10, 10/11 and 13/14 saw us up near the top of the table in Feb/March. We then invariably collapsed but still.

There was also the Champions League final, two League Cup finals and a couple of semi-finals mixed in. Some better luck like Eduardo not getting his leg snapped in two and smarter transfer buys would have seen that entire period looked on a lot more fondly.
 
Sterling impressed in large part due to being given so much space by Suarez, and was set up excellently by him as well. Sturridge held his own and played really well even when Suarez was out.

I actually think it's Hendo's contributions most people are forgetting from that season. He was immense, and his pressing game worked perfectly in tandem with Suarez.

In general though I think it's correct to contribute A LOT of our good play from that season due to Suarez. We played really well due to making him the main man, which in turn led to great team moral, which allowed youngsters like Sterling and Flanagan (lol) to flourish in an enviroment without pressure.
Henderson has always been underrated on here. It's always, "Yeah but Liverpool can make it work with garbage players like Henderson and Milner in midfield, and they are made to look good only because of Klopp's system." I don't know if it's because they're unspectacular English players or whatever. Has anyone actually thought that it's possible they are actually very good players? Which they obviously are imo.
 
One that has grown exponentially: Suarez's season at Liverpool when they almost won the league was all down to him - Sturridge and Sterling's contributions being erased from history.

C.Ronaldo and Portugal's European Championship win: he played 7mins of the final. The revision is he had a major role in the victory. Used particularly as a one-up over 'Messi acolytes' but steadily becoming legion.

Sterling is having his first proper season: No, he's been a top tier talent for nigh on half a decade now even if his finishing has gone awry at times during the period.

Yours?

Good luck getting out of the group and into the final with no Ronaldo. It’s a rubbish point.
 
See some people downplaying De Gea.. It's truly bizarre.
He's easily been our best player overall since Fergie left. And arguably before that as well.

But he's deteriorated a bit since Solskjaer joined. Possibly he's mentally exhausted after carrying the team for so long. You see a similar thing with the Spanish team

Edit: what is a Gergie?
 
Last edited:
That Arsenal didn't compete for trophies post 2005 until the 2014 FA cup win.

We were absolutely up there some seasons in the title race, 07/08, 09/10, 10/11 and 13/14 saw us up near the top of the table in Feb/March. We then invariably collapsed but still.

There was also the Champions League final, two League Cup finals and a couple of semi-finals mixed in. Some better luck like Eduardo not getting his leg snapped in two and smarter transfer buys would have seen that entire period looked on a lot more fondly.
Have to agree.
You were the team which gave Barca 10/11 the most trouble. 2009/10 looked uncertain too until the return leg where you got fecked over by injuries (as usual). Arsenal really wasn't a joke at that time - in the end it wasn't enough, but it's unfair to lump them together with some recent teams.
 
Croatia aside, Portugal has more talent than any of those teams. It’s nonsense to pretend that Portugal is some plucky underdog and Argentina is a top class team. While it’s clear Argentina has had by far the better forward line over the past decade, their midfield and defence has been for the most part trash.

Their trash defense and midfield has just been miles better than ours during that time :lol:

Even if you take Messi and Ronaldo out of the equation, the two sides have been pretty well matched since both players broke through.

:lol::wenger:

That is so incredibly wrong it's hilarious... keep comparing Messi making the Copa America final with Argentina as if it was anywhere near the same achievement as Portugal making the Euros final if it makes you happy. I won't derail the thread.
 
He's easily been our best player overall since Gergie left. And arguably before that as well.

But he's deteriorated a bit since Solskjaer joined. Possibly he's mentally exhausted after carrying the team for so long. You see a similar thing with the Spanish team

Aye the forms dipped but some think his services are expendable.
 
:lol::wenger:

That is so incredibly wrong it's hilarious... keep comparing Messi making the Copa America final with Argentina as if it was anywhere near the same achievement as Portugal making the Euros final if it makes you happy. I won't derail the thread.

It’s not just near the same. It’s the same achievement. Meanwhile he also made it to a World Cup final which is many magnitudes above a continental final.
 
Their trash defense and midfield has just been miles better than ours during that time :lol:



:lol::wenger:

That is so incredibly wrong it's hilarious... keep comparing Messi making the Copa America final with Argentina as if it was anywhere near the same achievement as Portugal making the Euros final if it makes you happy. I won't derail the thread.

Like always

84- Semi finals
96- Quarter finals
00- Semi finals
04- Final
08- Quarter Finals
12- Semi Finals
16- Final

Yeah, there's a blip in two tournaments but I don't see such a leap in the last decade, even in the 92 qualification I don't think it's such a shameful display to finish 2 points behind Netherlands. Koeman, Rijkaard, Bergkamp, Gullit, Van Basten...
 
Paul Scholes has always been a Xavi/Pirloesque deep lying playmaker who was wasted by England.

In reality it wasn’t until several years after he retired from international that he began to play that role.
Good point, in fact, NO player starts of their career as one, not Pirlo, not Xavi, not Scholes.
 
Every cheap and overinflated narrative related to results of cup competitions. Football is a notoriously unpredictable game, with so much variance that even over the course of league season the final standings sometimes don't make sense. When it comes down to single matches, like in cup competitions, it is basically a lottery. There is a ridiculous tendency of ascribing qualities of brilliance, heroism and destiny to what was in reality a product of sheer opportunism combined with fluke and happenstance. More than half of these glorious competitions would probably have different winners if they were played again. But people love their narratives, hype, and vain obsession with glory. That's football, I guess.
 
2013 was the RVP title. He had a 10 odd game scoreless streak, and Carrick was absolutely sublime that season

Yeah he had a very long period of not playing well. Although we did grind out a lot of wins during the second half of the season. Should have improved with wingers and a top class central midfielder next to Carrick.

Then he had that amazing hattrick against Villa in the end and I guess that painted a different picture over his second half of the season.
 
Unpopular opinion but people have turned their opinions on Rojo massively as if he was always shite for us. He was pretty good (at least for someone who we signed for 16m) till the shoulder dislocation injury in the City game and also he was arguably our best defender in our most successful season in post-Fergie era.

He gives away a lot of fouls and I won't miss him if he is sold (although I like him more than most fans here), we have painted his entire stint here as a failure
 
Like always

84- Semi finals
96- Quarter finals
00- Semi finals
04- Final
08- Quarter Finals
12- Semi Finals
16- Final

Yeah, there's a blip in two tournaments but I don't see such a leap in the last decade, even in the 92 qualification I don't think it's such a shameful display to finish 2 points behind Netherlands. Koeman, Rijkaard, Bergkamp, Gullit, Van Basten...

96 to 04 we had our golden generation... we made it to the tournament one single time before then but alright. Who needs Rui Costa, Figo and Deco when you have William, Veloso, Moutinho and Meireles?

I guess instead of the portuguese going insane in the biggest parties this country had ever seen we should have done like the argentinians and slandered the team for underperforming given the expectations should be the same for two incredibly different squads quality wise.

Argentina getting to a Copa America final in years Brazil is crap is not in any way shape of form something to be celebrated ffs, that should be obvious. Argentina made it obvious too.
 
Unpopular opinion but people have turned their opinions on Rojo massively as if he was always shite for us. He was pretty good (at least for someone who we signed for 16m) till the shoulder dislocation injury in the City game and also he was arguably our best defender in our most successful season in post-Fergie era.

He gives away a lot of fouls and I won't miss him if he is sold (although I like him more than most fans here), we have painted his entire stint here as a failure

He had one very short spell playing really well at centre back, ended by the serious ligament injury in the Europa cup win season.
Pre and after, he's largely ranged from average to dreadful.

Utterly galling bearing in mind we seemed to have swapped Nani for him, plus 16m!
Not to mention the "leaked" 140k a week wages, that seem incredible even with our history of overpaying.
 
Every cheap and overinflated narrative related to results of cup competitions. Football is a notoriously unpredictable game, with so much variance that even over the course of league season the final standings sometimes don't make sense. When it comes down to single matches, like in cup competitions, it is basically a lottery. There is a ridiculous tendency of ascribing qualities of brilliance, heroism and destiny to what was in reality a product of sheer opportunism combined with fluke and happenstance. More than half of these glorious competitions would probably have different winners if they were played again. But people love their narratives, hype, and vain obsession with glory. That's football, I guess.

I guess the margins in a world cup can be small. I think France this time around impressed quite a lot though this time around and people should maybe hype them more. Won all games in normal time and never did you feel like they didn't deserve to win. Had a very hard route to win it as well. Germany on the other hand could have been knocked out against Algeria and won marginally against both France and Argentina. People will hype them up more for the big win over Brazil though. Spain won all games with a goal although it was hard to take the ball from them and they impressed as a very defensive side. Italy had a lot going for them when they won it in 2006 too.
 
That despite fergie cruising the league, he apparently left a super weak squad.
Really? You think that an ageing defence, literally no midfield,inconsistent wingers, one injury prone attacker and one past his best attacker wasn’t a weak squad and a bunch of midtable level players wasn’t a weak squad?
 
Is probably that Jose’s Chelsea if 04-05 were boring. They definitely weren’t- duff & Robben on the wings, joe Cole, drogba. Was an exciting & winning team
 
Blind was rubbish for us.

One of my all time favourite United players. Just loved watching him play. Hated that Jose sold him.