Support David Moyes thread

Loon said:
That's it. ANY sort of sign.
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We could give him the best squad in the world and he'd still send them out with the mindset of trying to stifle Fulham or the like. That's just the way that he is. Sure with better individuals we would do better, that's a given, but the squad we have right now is good enough to challenge for the title. Why sell ourself short by sticking by someone who needs massive investment just to underachieve anyway when we could hire someone who could actually get the best out of our players. Why settle for someone with a defensive, negative, defeatist attitude when we could hire a winner who refuses to accept second best?

He's never going to 'turn this around' because he doesn't have it in him. He's not a top-level manager and he never will be.
 
An Irish Red said:
We could give him the best squad in the world and he'd still send them out with the mindset of trying to stifle Fulham or the like. That's just the way that he is. Sure with better individuals we would do better, that's a given, but the squad we have right now is good enough to challenge for the title. Why sell ourself short by sticking by someone who needs massive investment just to underachieve anyway when we could hire someone who could actually get the best out of our players. Why settle for someone with a defensive, negative, defeatist attitude when we could hire a winner who refuses to accept second best?

He's never going to 'turn this around' because he doesn't have it in him. He's not a top-level manager and he never will be.
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I think one of the things that has wound me up the most is an old quote of Fergie's that I remember where he said "you explain the tactics to them all week and go through all the drills but come the game you have to let them get out there and play the game themselves and let them express themselves".

It's the opposite of what Moyes seems to be doing. Rigid draconian tactics that just don't suit the personnel at all.
 
An Irish Red said:
We could give him the best squad in the world and he'd still send them out with the mindset of trying to stifle Fulham or the like. That's just the way that he is. Sure with better individuals we would do better, that's a given, but the squad we have right now is good enough to challenge for the title. Why sell ourself short by sticking by someone who needs massive investment just to underachieve anyway when we could hire someone who could actually get the best out of our players. Why settle for someone with a defensive, negative, defeatist attitude when we could hire a winner who refuses to accept second best?

He's never going to 'turn this around' because he doesn't have it in him. He's not a top-level manager and he never will be.
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I hear exactly what you're saying. This is the struggle I have going on inside. I want to believe Fergie made the right choice, but I see little evidence at the moment.
 
Pexbo said:
I think one of the things that has wound me up the most is an old quote of Fergie's that I remember where he said "you explain the tactics to them all week and go through all the drills but come the game you have to let them get out there and play the game themselves and let them express themselves".

It's the opposite of what Moyes seems to be doing. Rigid draconian tactics that just don't suit the personnel at all.
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It's strange, but you'd think Fergie would have an idea of Moyes's methods and work ethic. I thought that was part of his thinking when he recommended him?
 
If he goes on to spend £120m in the Summer and we end up 4th on the last day, I am pretty sure people will consider him a success somehow even though he took over a title winning squad.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Danny, these are world class players in the squad. I mean not every one of them, but we still have a set of very good players who should be better than Everton, Liverpool and Spurs. Do you consider the possibility that the players are not arsed and giving it their all? Moyes obviously takes the bulk of the criticism and rightfully so, but surely the players have to cope some of it? It's a bigger concern that players are not buying into Moyes.
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If you're talking to me (not the OP) then I think that's the worrying sign that Moyes' time is almost up.

Moyes didn't earn the respect of the players (by the looks of it), even though he was lucky to get the backing of somebody they respect that much. How many rookie managers step into a big team like United, and have such a strong backing beforehand from the biggest legend in the club and the former manager?

However, that backing would only last him a few weeks (which should be the most difficult weeks for any rookie manager). What he needed to do is earn their respect after that. Show them and us that he has at least the character SAF had so we can be patient with him like United was with Fergie (not that I think the comparison makes any sense mind you, the teams/situations both started with are incomparable really).

So as long as Moyes is incapable of motivating the players/getting the best out of them, we're left with one of two options. Sack Moyes, or sell the players.

For me those players have proven that they're champions, they're winners, under the right management (not to mention it will cost us a lot of money to replace most of the squad).

While on the other hand we have a rookie manager, who has never won anything, who is tactically unsound, who doesn't have a strong character to control the team, and who hasn't shown any sign that he's changing anything or even look like somebody who has a clue about how to fix this. He always looks baffled about why we lose, which doesn't suggest that we're close to seeing major improvements.

So, which option should we choose?
 
Sarni said:
If he goes on to spend £120m in the Summer and we end up 4th on the last day, I am pretty sure people will consider him a success somehow even though he took over a title winning squad.
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I think the media are reporting he'll be expected to deliver the title, or a title challenge at the very least, next season with the financial backing he's to receive in the summer.
 
bishblaize said:
Is it possible to support him without believing he'll do well?

Unlike some I think his face fits at United. I like having an uncool manager, one who is about hard work rather than whatever cool "system" is in fashion in Spain or Germany right now. I see why Fergie picked him. And even though i was a little underwhelmed the Scottish grimmace and the clenched fist when we score seems very right.

However, simply looking at what I've seen on the pitch gives me no reason to believe he's on the right path.
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that's basically how i feel as well.
 
Sarni said:
If he goes on to spend £120m in the Summer and we end up 4th on the last day, I am pretty sure people will consider him a success somehow even though he took over a title winning squad.
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I'd expect a title challenge. I just think this season is now going to have an impact on the summer spend.
 
Loon said:
#justsaying

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Fergie had won multiple trophies when he came to United, including in Europe. You can't compare a successful, winning manager to David Moyes, who has won just as many trophies as I have.
 
Sir Matt said:
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Fergie had won multiple trophies when he came to United, including in Europe. You can't compare a successful, winning manager to David Moyes, who has won just as many trophies as I have.
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I know that. I am old enough to have been there at the time. The point I was making is it didn't stop folk wanting him fired either.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
I think the media are reporting he'll be expected to deliver the title, or a title challenge at the very least, next season with the financial backing he's to receive in the summer.
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Sadly, it looks like he might not have the quality to manage top players so it will be just wasting money? On Tuesday in Greece, Januzaj wasn't even on the bench for no reason, why? One of many examples his choice and decision (without plans to change the game etc)... How would more financial backing helps him?
 
Pexbo said:
I think one of the things that has wound me up the most is an old quote of Fergie's that I remember where he said "you explain the tactics to them all week and go through all the drills but come the game you have to let them get out there and play the game themselves and let them express themselves".

It's the opposite of what Moyes seems to be doing. Rigid draconian tactics that just don't suit the personnel at all.
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Everything about Moyes just screams negativity. Fergie used to gamble for a win against the odds where as Moyes will cower and defend when we are the favourites. Obviously Fergie is in another galaxy to Moyes talent wise but there's just the same difference between them when it comes to mentality as well.

David Moyes is the most defeatist manager I've ever seen. We could go out and beat three-one by City and he'd sit there with that grin on his face praising our goal and claiming we played well. He's not cut out to win trophies and his standards are nowhere near high enough. It's almost like he thinks he's already became successful just because he's our manager.
 
Danny1982 said:
If you're talking to me (not the OP) then I think that's the worrying sign that Moyes' time is almost up.

Moyes didn't earn the respect of the players (by the looks of it), even though he was lucky to get the backing of somebody they respect that much. How many rookie managers step into a big team like United, and have such a strong backing beforehand from the biggest legend in the club and the former manager?

However, that backing would only last him a few weeks (which should be the most difficult weeks for any rookie manager). What he needed to do is earn their respect after that. Show them and us that he has at least the character SAF had so we can be patient with him like United was with Fergie (not that I think the comparison makes any sense mind you, the teams/situations both started with are incomparable really).

So as long as Moyes is incapable of motivating the players/getting the best out of them, we're left with one of two options. Sack Moyes, or sell the players.

For me those players have proven that they're champions, they're winners, under the right management (not to mention it will cost us a lot of money to replace most of the squad).

While on the other hand we have a rookie manager, who has never won anything, who is tactically unsound, who doesn't have a strong character to control the team, and who hasn't shown any sign that he's changing anything or even look like somebody who has a clue about how to fix this. He always looks baffled about why we lose, which doesn't suggest that we're close to seeing major improvements.

So, which option should we choose?
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Honestly, I don't know an answer and I doubt anyone can answer it convincingly. Players are paid to pay and if they are not being arsed, firing the manager only exacerbates the problem. I think it's a tricky ground if we fire managers because the players don't like Moyes. If Moyes wants to make us compact and the players do not like the system, thereby not playing to their full potential and partly are responsible for the results, then it's not a simple question of firing Moyes.

I'd be interested in other posters' opinion on this though.
 
Ringo 07 said:
About as simple answer as there is...many great coaches are awful managers....mulensteen, kidd, avram grant, carlos qieiroz, roy evans etc
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I used to think he is the least motivational manager (well he looked it) but now I think Moyes is (sadly)
 
fishfingers15 said:
Honestly, I don't know an answer and I doubt anyone can answer it convincingly. Players are paid to pay and if they are not being arsed, firing the manager only exacerbates the problem. I think it's a tricky ground if we fire managers because the players don't like Moyes. If Moyes wants to make us compact and the players do not like the system, thereby not playing to their full potential and partly are responsible for the results, then it's not a simple question of firing Moyes.

I'd be interested in other posters' opinion on this though.
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The players don't have anything against Moyes. They really supported him at the start, and they were playing with a lot of effort imo until very recently. It's more a situation of losing confidence and hope, rather than disrespect or dislike towards the manager.

As far as I'm concerned our players didn't do anything wrong so far, they just look demoralised. It has to be the manager's job to pick their spirits up and get them to continue giving their best.
 
Loon said:
I know that. I am old enough to have been there at the time. The point I was making is it didn't stop folk wanting him fired either.
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The games changed, a lot since then. I wasnt around (well i was born in 1987) when SAF took over so i dont know what fans were like in his first 3 seasons but i'm sure his track record must have kept him in good stead even after the first barron season.

We are questioning Moyes because hes doing very badly and in his career as a manager has never won anything, had he we might be able to use that as proof that he might come good - but if anything it more damning evidence against him.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
I think the media are reporting he'll be expected to deliver the title, or a title challenge at the very least, next season with the financial backing he's to receive in the summer.
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the same media that reported he would be sacked yesterday ? Yeh, very perceptive bunch them media . .
 
OneUnited24 said:
Fergie had won multiple trophies when he came to United, including in Europe. You can't compare a successful, winning manager to David Moyes, who has won just as many trophies as I have.
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The fans wanted SAF out, it didn't matter what he had won before he came to united so it sort of contradicts your point. Had the board listened to the fans we wouldn't of had the domination of the last 3 decades we have enjoyed. Crazy to imagine that showing faith in a struggling manager would ever pay off ! !
 
Loon said:
I know that. I am old enough to have been there at the time. The point I was making is it didn't stop folk wanting him fired either.
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AVB won medals before Spurs too... Didn't stop the folk wanting him fired either!!

Basically judge everything on its own merit. Fergie kept his job because he wasn't just rebuilding a team but he was rebuilding a club. I'm not too sure what David Moyes is planning on improving with this multi-million pound empire that is Manchester United.
 
Drummer said:
The fans wanted SAF out, it didn't matter what he had won before he came to united so it sort of contradicts your point. Had the board listened to the fans we wouldn't of had the domination of the last 3 decades we have enjoyed. Crazy to imagine that showing faith in a struggling manager would ever pay off ! !
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Yeah Liverpool would have been a title winning force right now if they stuck with Hodgson. This point is so stupid its unbelievable.
 
Drummer said:
The fans wanted SAF out, it didn't matter what he had won before he came to united so it sort of contradicts your point. Had the board listened to the fans we wouldn't of had the domination of the last 3 decades we have enjoyed. Crazy to imagine that showing faith in a struggling manager would ever pay off ! !
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Yeah but did they want SAF after one season? Or did they turn after the second season? I wasnt old enough to remember that time so i'm genuinely curious.

I know most fans started to turn on him in his 3rd season but before that i am led to believe he was quite popular with the fans.

Plus we need to get away from that mentality that we should stick with a manager and hope he pulls a Fergie - SAF was once in a lifetime!
 
Danny1982 said:
The players don't have anything against Moyes. They really supported him at the start, and they were playing with a lot of effort imo until very recently. It's more a situation of losing confidence and hope, rather than disrespect or dislike towards the manager.

As far as I'm concerned our players didn't do anything wrong so far, they just look demoralised. It has to be the manager's job to pick their spirits up and get them to continue giving their best.
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Fair point, I'm not a blind supporter of Moyes, but at the moment, I'm with the 'let's review the year in May'.
 
Tomalonge said:
Apparently his removal was the echelon of decisions ever made. I've seen the situation we're in compared to it a lot on here.
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Because it is a similar situation. A manager badly out of depth with mentality that does not suit this club.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Fair point, I'm not a blind supporter of Moyes, but at the moment, I'm with the 'let's review the year in May'.
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What could possibly happen before May to make this season anything but a disaster?
 
Drummer said:
What has Roy Hodgson got to do with this discussion ?
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He is a very good manager that will never have what it takes to take a top club forward. Thats the point. WBA, Fulham excellent. Inter Milan.. Liverpool!! :nervous: Lets just say he was so crap at Liverpool even I wanted him gone, just so we could get our rivals back.
 
Sarni said:
What could possibly happen before May to make this season anything but a disaster?
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I don't know Sarni, we have to wait and watch till May, don't we? Of course, this takes into consideration that Moyes will not be let go before the end of this season anyway and rightly so too. What do we do then? Fire Moyes and appoint Giggs?
 
Loon said:
I know that. I am old enough to have been there at the time. The point I was making is it didn't stop folk wanting him fired either.
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By the sounds of things it was the stuff going on behind the scenes that ensured Fergie was safe - he was changing the whole identity of the club and developing the Youth team
 
OneUnited24 said:
Yeah but did they want SAF after one season? Or did they turn after the second season? I wasnt old enough to remember that time so i'm genuinely curious.

I know most fans started to turn on him in his 3rd season but before that I am led to believe he was quite popular with the fans.

Plus we need to get away from that mentality that we should stick with a manager and hope he pulls a Fergie - SAF was once in a lifetime!
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SAF took over a team really struggling and did get relative improvement out of the players. However he was given a lot of money (at the time) and he put a fair bit of focus on youth (we all know where that went). . tackling the drinking culture was a big part of that . .

The most important thing was that he was under immense pressure and the board stuck with him. This doesn't mean Moyes will be a success (if board back him), but people seem to feel that saying "that's not the way the game works now" is some sort of "answer all" comment in this regard.

SAF saw something in Moyes that he felt was worth taking a gamble on. Its kind of ironic that the only person who had Moyes (presumably) at the top of the list to replace SAF was SAF . .

Incidentally I remember in mid 00s when united were badly struggling, arguing with United fans who said I was showing blind loyalty supporting SAF during a tough period. They compared him to clough, like people are comparing United to Liverpool of the early 90s as if it somehow validated their concerns. .
 
Tomalonge said:
Go on, insinuate the fans had nothing to do with it. I don't mind seeing more stupid.
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I'm asking you the question seeing as you brought it up you tit. You obviously know, i'm just interested in who they did this because i just can't remember, that's all.

How did Liverpool fans sack the manager? Did they Sack Darglish as well?
 
Danny1982 said:
It ain't ordinary rubbish.. After 27 games this season we scored 43 goals. Last season after 27 games we scored 64 goals. (almost one more goal every single game)

I like the way he's trying to give the impression that he looked up the stats before posting, so thoroughly that he even know the number of shots taken by our midfielders. :lol:

And by the way, this season we conceded 31 goals after 27 games, which is exactly the number of goals we conceded at this stage last season.
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Apart from RvP and Rooney have scored at the same rate. Welbeck has scored those which Hernandez did last year. The reason we've scored less is RvP hasn't played as much and our defence is short around 10 goals. So yeah...
 
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