Surprise at Blind playing well at centre half

[LawCharltonBest]

The 'Mascherano' argument is stupid.

It's okay saying Mascherano plays there for Barca. But when you have Messi Neymar & Suarez, you can concede 4 and score 5.

 

[Siorac]

The 'Mascherano' argument is stupid.

It's okay saying Mascherano plays there for Barca. But when you have Messi Neymar & Suarez, you can concede 4 and score 5.

Or, as on Friday, you concede four and score feck all. Which was funny.

 

[lem8sh]

He's already got a clean sheet defending against Kane, who scored more than all of those players last season except for Aguero, who got one more.

Take into account the context of the game, Spurs are extremely poor and Kane was isolated and the service to him was non existent. It's away to City, Arsenal and Co that will show his deficiencies and to not have an actual center back playing there after all the money spent is a bit of a joke imo.

 

[tom porter]

did well in preseason to be fair.

I was at the game against PSG and him and Jones were below par against Ibra. He lacks the pace and physicality to match up against the best forwards in the world. For instance, who would fancy him against the Aguero on display today against Chelsea?

 

[ChaddyP]

I was at the game against PSG and him and Jones were below par against Ibra. He lacks the pace and physicality to match up against the best forwards in the world. For instance, who would fancy him against the Aguero on display today against Chelsea?

Aguero can give the best CB in the world a run around. Jones was shite more than him and Jones has been a CB most his career.

 

[tom porter]

Aguero can give the best CB in the world a run around. Jones was shite more than him and Jones has been a CB most his career.

Fair points on Jones and Aguero. I still don't believe Jones has the physical tools to be the level of center back we need to get back where we belong and that's winning titles. Just my honest opinion...

 

[11101]

Maldini did 'OK' as centreback after he lost his pace. People in England get too hung up on having 6'4" Olympic sprinters as the ideal defenders. Blind has plenty of intelligence that mostly compensates for any lack of physical attributes. He will be fine against 99% of strikers out there - Costa is the worry.

 

[Henk de Rode]

I think LvG put Blind on CB because he doesn't want to be criticised for playing with 3 defenders. In his famous Ajax side Blind's father was an excellent sweeper. I see some comparisons between the role Blind curently plays for United.

 

[Insanity]

The Villa performance had blinded people a bit. He had very little defending to do and wasn't put under much pressure, which allowed him to continue with his passing. Don't think he was great against the Spurs.

Blind is an intelligent player, who understands VG's "philosophy", what ever that is, better than anyone else. So, in a way, not a surprise that he hasn't looked completely out of place there in a team that is basically plays with 6 defensive players. The FB's don't bomb forward or overlap, sometimes covering for the CB's. Both the CM's sit close to each other, protecting the defense. We have an ultra-defensive set-up right now, in which he hasn't been exposed yet.

Much sterner tests lie ahead. There will be games where the opposition will score first or games we are drawing, where we'll have to lose our defensive shape, the CM's and FB's will have to be more aggressive and join the attack: Will he be able to cope without the extra protection that was afforded to him last game? Will that expose his lack of pace and physicallity like it was against PSG? Will we be able to keep the high line against tougher opposition? Will he be useful when we are under the cosh and are bombarded with crosses in the box? How will he look when he has actual defending to do? Will it work with Jones?

Those are some of the questions, the answers to which make me very uncomfortable about his suitability for the position in the long term.

I am sure "90%" of the forum, including me, who are skeptical about the idea of Blind playing at CB will be delighted if proven wrong, as being incorrect would mean that we have finally found a really good CB partnership in Smalling and Blind.

 

[Devil may care]

The 'Mascherano' argument is stupid.

It's okay saying Mascherano plays there for Barca. But when you have Messi Neymar & Suarez, you can concede 4 and score 5.

He also plays in a completely different league, the PL is built on pace and power.

 

[caid]

Maldini did 'OK' as centreback after he lost his pace. People in England get too hung up on having 6'4" Olympic sprinters as the ideal defenders. Blind has plenty of intelligence that mostly compensates for any lack of physical attributes. He will be fine against 99% of strikers out there - Costa is the worry.

I'd agree with this.
Carvalho wasn't exactly a mountain when playing for chelsea either.

People keep saying he'll get found out against great strikers as if the team who finished 5th and had one of the best strikers in the league last season are nobodies.
We can switch in Jones or Rojo for the two whole games thats an issue (against city) and play blind the other 36 then.

He might not work out at cb but i dont think hes a player you can say 'hes not in his right position' about. It doesn't seem to apply to him.

 

[World Game]

Why can't he be a good CB? He can but Manchester United is a English team and the English love and value the physical attributes in a player namely strength, height and pace above all things. But LvG doesn't and rightly so. Many here would trade Blind for Jones who is bigger and muscular despite the fact he barely has 1/3 of the brain. This type of culture is partially the reason why England is behind in its football. If Blind was English he would have never been considered for the World Cup squad yet the team which won the World Cup had to use his defensive game as a case study themselves.

 

[Gasolin]

Why can't he be a good CB? He can but Manchester United is a English team and the English love and value the physical attributes in a player namely strength, height and pace above all things. But LvG doesn't and rightly so. Many here would trade Blind for Jones who is bigger and muscular despite the fact he barely has 1/3 of the brain. This type of culture is partially the reason why England is behind in its football. If Blind was English he would have never been considered for the World Cup squad yet the team which won the World Cup had to use his defensive game as a case study themselves.

You said it already somewhere but where did you see that? Could you share the link?

 

[World Game]

You said it already somewhere but where did you see that? Could you share the link?

http://www.insidefutbol.com/2014/12...ey-blind-helped-germany-win-world-cup/179563/
http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/s...wittingly-helped-germany-win-world-cup-video/

 

[11101]

He also plays in a completely different league, the PL is built on pace and power.

And the fast, powerful English teams have run in circles every time they've faced Barcelona or Bayern in recent years. But at least they were quick circles

 

[Devil may care]

And the fast, powerful English teams have run in circles every time they've faced Barcelona or Bayern in recent years. But at least they were quick circles

Two teams with the bulk of the games elite attacking talent and midfielders, that might have something to do with it. On the other hand we don't have anything near that and a one off CL game is different to the slog of a 38 game season.

 

[Gasolin]

And the fast, powerful English teams have run in circles every time they've faced Barcelona or Bayern in recent years. But at least they were quick circles

Agreed, Blind is a smart player, this is one of the most important skills in the game. He's not bad with the ball touch neither. Smalling can bring the physical attribute, you need the other type of player to lead the line. It was Smalling's role last year but this year, Blind is taking it apparently. People would be wrong to underestimate the impact of an intelligence over the game.

 

[prath92]

our midfield has protected him. But when Jones is back, Blind will be back up for Shaw or one of teh midfield positions.

I can bet that he will make less mistakes than Jones will. But hey Jones has pace.

 

[jem]

Any chance that this will be looked back on as a 'Schweinsteiger' moment - ie. LVG seeing something in a player playing a new position that no one had previously?

 

[Gasolin]

Any chance that this will be looked back on as a 'Schweinsteiger' moment - ie. LVG seeing something in a player playing a new position that no one had previously?

Schweinsteiger "failed" when LVG tried to use him further up in the field. Then when he was used again as a holding midfielder, it worked out better. LVG is not always right in his choices (a bit like Depay in 10, and, to a lesser extend, Januaz in that position as well) but sometimes, it works out. There's a bit of randomness here.

 

[11101]

Two teams with the bulk of the games elite attacking talent and midfielders, that might have something to do with it. On the other hand we don't have anything near that and a one off CL game is different to the slog of a 38 game season.

Their games are built around possession, which has a lot to do with why they are so good. Those two teams are not the only examples. The English game is being left behind with it's obsession with physicality.

Are you suggesting in that last sentence the 2011 Barcelona team would struggle to win the Premier League?!

 

[Insanity]

Studying Blind helped Germany the world cup?

Shame on anyone who doubted Blind's ability to play at CB.

We are going to win the world cup. Yes!!

 

[dustfingers]

The Villa performance had blinded people a bit. He had very little defending to do and wasn't put under much pressure, which allowed him to continue with his passing. Don't think he was great against the Spurs.

Blind is an intelligent player, who understands VG's "philosophy", what ever that is, better than anyone else. So, in a way, not a surprise that he hasn't looked completely out of place there in a team that is basically plays with 6 defensive players. The FB's don't bomb forward or overlap, sometimes covering for the CB's. Both the CM's sit close to each other, protecting the defense. We have an ultra-defensive set-up right now, in which he hasn't been exposed yet.

Much sterner tests lie ahead. There will be games where the opposition will score first or games we are drawing, where we'll have to lose our defensive shape, the CM's and FB's will have to be more aggressive and join the attack: Will he be able to cope without the extra protection that was afforded to him last game? Will that expose his lack of pace and physicallity like it was against PSG? Will we be able to keep the high line against tougher opposition? Will he be useful when we are under the cosh and are bombarded with crosses in the box? How will he look when he has actual defending to do? Will it work with Jones?

Those are some of the questions, the answers to which make me very uncomfortable about his suitability for the position in the long term.

I am sure "90%" of the forum, including me, who are skeptical about the idea of Blind playing at CB will be delighted if proven wrong, as being incorrect would mean that we have finally found a really good CB partnership in Smalling and Blind.

Defense is more about the team shape and organization and tactics than individual skills. If we have a poor defensive shape, then having peak Maldini and Nesta playing for our team is unlikely to stop the opponent from scoring. What Blind brings to the team is a quality option to drop into midfield when one of our CM moves further up. In such cases, the CBs would be expected to do the midfield job, rotate the ball, get into better position to intercept attack early and initiate our own attack. The keepers would come into the game more as sweeper to clean up the space behind the CBs. The exact scenario you mentioned utilizes Blind much better. In normal shape, he's capable of standing pressure from forward, bring the ball forward in case DMs are marked or play a good pass further forward. He's capable of all that.

Also he's not a CF being converted into a CB. He was DM and LB for us last season. He'll do decent in this position whether we will win the WC or whatever Germans won looking at his videos. Chelsea's individual defending was found out tonight because their shape with Fabregas in the CM role didn't suit their defenders. With 2 DMs we have a very good balance to exploit the passing game Blind brings from CB position, which is why he's playing. There are very few defenders who can match a striker in all aspects, Smalling can get roasted by Messi and Aguero in the box defending (as was Boateng who probably matches Smalling most in terms of established defenders), Terry and Cahill cannot handle a pacy striker without suitable system. All Italian national teams that were renowned for defending didn't have a freak of nature all the time defending for them. Cannavaro was okay physically but was a beast in defending. A good positioning sense and a great tactical organization comes a lot in defending before physical attributes.

 

[Devil may care]

Their games are built around possession, which has a lot to do with why they are so good. Those two teams are not the only examples. The English game is being left behind with it's obsession with physicality.

Are you suggesting in that last sentence the 2011 Barcelona team would struggle to win the Premier League?!

That's a different debate, regardless of whether the English game is getting left behind we have to compete in a league filled with big powerful sides, and as Arsenal have shown with their attempt to win our league with a side and style built for La Liga, it doesn't work.

I think their physically small players would have suffered a lot more in terms of the toll on their bodies from less protection and much better funded, aggressive teams who set out to batter them as teams did to Arsenal, but as I also said they were a team with an elite forward line and 2 of the greatest CM's ever, so of course they could win it.

 

[Insanity]

Defense is more about the team shape and organization and tactics than individual skills. If we have a poor defensive shape, then having peak Maldini and Nesta playing for our team is unlikely to stop the opponent from scoring. What Blind brings to the team is a quality option to drop into midfield when one of our CM moves further up. In such cases, the CBs would be expected to do the midfield job, rotate the ball, get into better position to intercept attack early and initiate our own attack. The keepers would come into the game more as sweeper to clean up the space behind the CBs. The exact scenario you mentioned utilizes Blind much better. In normal shape, he's capable of standing pressure from forward, bring the ball forward in case DMs are marked or play a good pass further forward. He's capable of all that.

Also he's not a CF being converted into a CB. He was DM and LB for us last season. He'll do decent in this position whether we will win the WC or whatever Germans won looking at his videos. Chelsea's individual defending was found out tonight because their shape with Fabregas in the CM role didn't suit their defenders. With 2 DMs we have a very good balance to exploit the passing game Blind brings from CB position, which is why he's playing. There are very few defenders who can match a striker in all aspects, Smalling can get roasted by Messi and Aguero in the box defending (as was Boateng who probably matches Smalling most in terms of established defenders), Terry and Cahill cannot handle a pacy striker without suitable system. All Italian national teams that were renowned for defending didn't have a freak of nature all the time defending for them. Cannavaro was okay physically but was a beast in defending. A good positioning sense and a great tactical organization comes a lot in defending before physical attributes.

Yes, those team shapes and organizations are good when everything is going to plan, that is why it becomes easier to blunt attacks with two banks of four and parked buses, even by teams that are no where near top quality. Though, football is not played in theory, on the pitch it is not always possible to maintain your shape, you also have to react to situations. That is where the true test of a defender comes and some of the individual skills shine.

No one is asking for a freak for nature. Thiago Silva is not a freak of nature, but is currently lauded as the best in the business. Don't take when people question Blind's lack of pace and physicallity to the other extreme.

Also, the problem with a defensive system is that it makes the attack toothless and the football dire. There is too much onus on the four attacking players to provide offensive impetus. The system becomes very demanding on the four players. You cannot create threads questioning Chelsea's football and then laud your football which is even more defensive, because all of a suddent you are a fan of organized football.

 

[Bobcat]

I really like Blind, but he is not the answer on CB. Against a strong and/or pacy striker he is going to struggle a lot

 

[dustfingers]

Yes, those team shapes and organizations are good when everything is going to plan, that is why it becomes easier to blunt attacks with two banks of four and parked buses, even by teams that are no where near top quality. Though, football is not played in theory, on the pitch it is not always possible to maintain your shape, you also have to react to situations. That is where the true test of a defender comes and some of the individual skills shine.

No one is asking for a freak for nature. Thiago Silva is not a freak of nature, but is currently lauded as the best in the business. Don't take when people question Blind's lack of pace and physicallity to the other extreme.

Also, the problem with a defensive system is that it makes the attack toothless and the football dire. There is too much onus on the four attacking players to provide offensive impetus. The system becomes very demanding on the four players. You cannot create threads questioning Chelsea's football and then laud your football which is even more defensive, because all of a suddent you are a fan of organized football.

I am not a fan of defensive football. But I'd admit sometimes the giant killing done by the likes of Inter on Barca where they had no option but to defend after being a man down is also one of the aspect of football. There is some beauty in it as well, as is in the early Italian WC winning teams along with '90 german NT.

I actually rewatched the Aston Villa game twice to see are we really as toothless in attack as suggested. I did the same with Spurs game as well, which was pretty bad and was unsurprised when LvG was unhappy with performance. From what I saw, it seems to me as if it was not the actual lack of attacking numbers which was contributing to our dire offense but rather our forwards being unable to hold the ball and play meaningful passes. Everytime the ball goes into any forward players other than Mata, whether they'd be dispossed or mispass a simple pass and concede possession. It is really hard to blame the formation when the forward players are not keeping possession. Also, on second watching I saw Carrick and Morgan looking at each other position and then venturing forward whoever was best suited to assist the attack. I'd say give the attack some time to gel, to get meaningful passes together before we can blame the formation being too defensive.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

I start to like the idea of Smalling and Blind as our CB pairing. Not a bad combination to have.

However, not sure if I want to see this against City...

 

[RedDevil@84]

While there is no guarantee that he will be crap when we face the likes of Chelsea or City, there are no guarantees on a good performance too

 

[Señor]

Any chance that this will be looked back on as a 'Schweinsteiger' moment - ie. LVG seeing something in a player playing a new position that no one had previously?

He gets as many wrong as he does right. Just in his short time here, he's played;

Rooney in midfield
Di Maria up front
Fellaini up front
Van Persie in midfield
Young as left back
Valencia as right back
Carrick in central defence
McNair as right back
Depay as the #10
Januzaj as the #10
Mata on the right wing
Blind in central defence

I know some were due to injuries but most of them weren't. There's probably a few I missed out as well out but the point is most of them didn't work out.

 

[Robbie Boy]

While there is no guarantee that he will be crap when we face the likes of Chelsea or City, there are no guarantees on a good performance too

Well there's no guarantees of any kind, so moot point. I'm unsure about Blind at CB, but I can only judge on what I've seen so far and I've been impressed (I didn't see the pre-season games). He got MOTM (on Sky) on Friday night and that must have made his detractors feel sick. It seems some are willing him to fail in order to prove how right they were all along. That's kind of sad. Lets judge him on what we see and what he produces. If he gets destroyed at some point, then yeah, there will certainly be more ammunition for his detractors.

Blind is a really weird one for me. He went from pretty overrated after the start of last season, to people basically writing him off as utter shit. It's always the extremes on here.

 

[Robbie Boy]

He gets as many wrong as he does right. Just in his short time here, he's played;

Rooney in midfield
Di Maria up front
Van Persie in midfield
Young as left back
Valencia as right back
Carrick in central defence
McNair as right back
Depay as the #10
Mata on the right wing
Blind in central defence

I know some were due to injuries but most of them weren't. There's probably a few I missed out as well out but the point is most of them didn't work out.

Except a good few of those players had played those positions at some point or other, before LvG came along.

Blind as CB is definitely an experiment. So far, so good, but lets wait and see.

 

[Xaviesta]

He also plays in a completely different league, the PL is built on pace and power.

Great to have Gary Neville on the forum.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Great to have Gary Neville on the forum.

It's just so cliched on how English football is viewed. You couldn't make up that post

 

[thelemon]

Agree, people laughing at it only being two games but they are the same that have come to the conclusion he is a shite CB based on no games at all. It is the same as before he started playing LB last season. He was too slow and weak and wasn't good enough. When he actually played LB, what do you know? He was pretty good.

Yeah, I think you worded it better than me.

 

[Rory 7]

Any chance that this will be looked back on as a 'Schweinsteiger' moment - ie. LVG seeing something in a player playing a new position that no one had previously?

I don't think so. Blind played at CB a lot for Ajax so it's not like LVG has noticed something new. Arguably Blind played his best football at CB for Ajax, everyone seems to have missed this.

 

[dsch]

He gets as many wrong as he does right. Just in his short time here, he's played;

Rooney in midfield
Di Maria up front
Fellaini up front
Van Persie in midfield
Young as left back
Valencia as right back
Carrick in central defence
McNair as right back
Depay as the #10
Januzaj as the #10
Mata on the right wing
Blind in central defence

I know some were due to injuries but most of them weren't. There's probably a few I missed out as well out but the point is most of them didn't work out.

I would say none of the highlighted ones were too bad, considering circumstances. Most of them certainly no worse than any other solution.

 

[Question234]

In theory it would work but blind needs to bulk up imo, can imagine costa will bully him but with smalling as a partner it may not be a problem.

Still to early to judge and imo blind has looked decent but hasn't been tested yet, either way I think rojo should be starting.

I think swansea away will be a real test to see if this defence can hold up.

 

[World Game]

Great to have Gary Neville on the forum.

Who named Blind as our MotM vs Villa ... the irony.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Who named Blind as our MotM vs Villa ... the irony.

In fairness, I'm sure it was an awfully hard task to pick a MOTM from that dour match.