Yep, he's about as boring a world class player as I can think of.
Surveillance Draft - R1- DavidG vs Joga Bonito
- Thread starter antohan
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I was just asking out of curiosity because I wasn't 100% sure.
His time in England wrecked his legacy for me. I remember being in cyprus on vacation (playing ISS2 with babangida and roberto carlos up front) when my cousin told me we had signed veron and it was the modern day equivalent of signing pogba. He was immense at Lazio, and was one of the few times when Ferguson signed someone that I felt we were getting a top 5 player in the world. Had he performed to Lazio levels, he'd probably displace Scholes in an all time UTD xi beside keane for me, his dynamism and ability to cover so much ground was a joy to behold. No he wasn't the greatest defensively, but he went about that side of his game without too much issue.
Its interesting how much tactics influence me at least. @DavidG that 442 and I personally think you'd definitely win this match in real life at least. The zona mista was displayed a bit odd but could have been okay at least if you made the formation different. But that 433 just doesn't work for me.
Scoring more than a goal a game before Ronaldo got his teeth done
That's fine, I get that, this is my last draft for a while and I wanted to have fun with it. Whilst I still think my original formation could have got the better of jogas team, I'm glad it's favouring him as his side is a tweak or two away from the best in the draft, and I probably would have had to forfeit a quarter final had I gotten there as I'm just too busy over the next 10 days.
Agreed, they complement each other very well and we're amongst the best centre backs in the world at their peaks - Carvalho being the defensive cornerstone for Porto's CL winning side winning the UEFA club defender of the year and being the top ranked defender in the Ballon dor that year, being imperious for the rock solid Chelsea side and of course, being an ever present servant for Portugal finishing in the TOTT in the '04 Euros and '06 WC, whilst being amongst the best centre backs in the 2010 WC. Likewise Lucio was a lynchpin at the back for several successful sides and his defensive prowess really came to the fore for Mourinho's Inter (the way he shut out peak 09/10 Drogba in that CL match was quite something). Does help that they were both comfortable on the ball too. Coming up against R9-Bergkamp didn't do them any favors though, unfortunately.
Sure thing. Benarrivo was a really classy and a versatile player capable of owning a flank single handedly. However, he was an Italian defender first and foremost who knew how to balance his attacking forays and defensive duties, as his displays in the '94 WC showed. Unfortunately he never really got the chance to shine on the international stage (apart from 1994 WC that is) with Maldini being a fixture on the left.
Anyway it wasn't so much his penetrative attacking game which made me go for him but his sheer versatility. He was equally two footed which meant he could help provide width or aid my midfield on the ball in the possession stakes. Equally at ease on either flank as a full back or even as a wide midfielder.
Think that's @mazhar13 youtube channel?
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The tactics of my zona Mista were clear.
Always 3 at the back, with Evra more than capable of working the left flank ala Facchetti. Ivanovic, comfortable anywhere in defence, able to step out and deal with the threat of nedved should he be closer to the touchline, and Salihamidzic undoutedbly offering the workmanlike approach to the right side.
Albelda is basically a Spanish Makelele ( obviously not as good) and conte was a true box to box player. Mostovoi offers all round midfield play and technical excellence and the duo up top, as recognized, wouldn't look out of place in an all time final.
So tactically, it worked, and all the players were more than capable of fulfilling their role. There was never a hope of me being overrun due to the solid 3 at the back and Albelda sitting, and as classy as jogas midfield is it really isn't the most pacey or the quickest in transition.
I touched upon it in my OP that the game would in all likelihood be decided by a moment of brilliance which having Ronaldo and bergkamp, was more likely to come from me ( IMO )
I've probably been undone by having a few unknowns in there but tactically, it worked and the players would have done what was being asked of them to a very high standard.
Always 3 at the back, with Evra more than capable of working the left flank ala Facchetti. Ivanovic, comfortable anywhere in defence, able to step out and deal with the threat of nedved should he be closer to the touchline, and Salihamidzic undoutedbly offering the workmanlike approach to the right side.
Albelda is basically a Spanish Makelele ( obviously not as good) and conte was a true box to box player. Mostovoi offers all round midfield play and technical excellence and the duo up top, as recognized, wouldn't look out of place in an all time final.
So tactically, it worked, and all the players were more than capable of fulfilling their role. There was never a hope of me being overrun due to the solid 3 at the back and Albelda sitting, and as classy as jogas midfield is it really isn't the most pacey or the quickest in transition.
I touched upon it in my OP that the game would in all likelihood be decided by a moment of brilliance which having Ronaldo and bergkamp, was more likely to come from me ( IMO )
I've probably been undone by having a few unknowns in there but tactically, it worked and the players would have done what was being asked of them to a very high standard.
I know you're not arsed about winning the game but the big problem with it, purely in terms of vote-winning, is that it took all the focus away from that dream Bergkamp/Ronaldo pairing while people tried to wrap their heads around the defensive tactics and assess Escobar.
Playing on the obvious would just be , well, obvious. I wanted to try it and make a case for it and had a bunch of answers ready for people questioning certain elements of it, but alas it's not as easy on the eye as a diamond and requires a bit more thought so it's not helped me.
Yup, the second video is from my channel.
And @Raees, what I love about Benarrivo is that he was truly an all-rounded full back. He was well-disciplined and intelligent, but he was also very good going forward with good control and a nice cross as well. His ambidextrous ability makes him real tough to deal with as he can get out of pressure and even be an inside threat.
It's too bad that Maldini was coming through at the same time with AC Milan as Benarrivo was truly a world class full back himself who, at his peak, was a close second to Maldini.
If Benarrivo were playing today there would be countless muppet threads banging on about him. Everything you could want in a fullback, he had it.
Agreed, yet you'd be hard pushed to find too many who remember him at all on this forum. He was tremendous.
I'd exchange Möller and Bergkamp and it's an interesting set up although perhaps a tad bit of an creative overload.
Interesting that you went with Lucio ahead of Carvalho? Any particular reasons or do you rate the Brazilian higher? Interested in hearing others thoughts on this too.
I rate lucio pretty highly, huge reason why that Leverkusen side was so successful. When lucio has a good game, he was the best player on the park, whereas carvalhos best would never qualify him for being anything other than the best defender on the park, if that makes sense. I've hoped and prayed that Chris smalling could turn into a lucio style defender but it seems less and less likely every year
Aye, its alot more fun trying something different, unless no fecker likes it when the match thread goes up
. I don't even know the score as I hadn't decided how to vote before the changes.Looking at your squad, I wonder if a narrow 4-4-2, matching Joga's formation I guess, might have worked well. Conte/Albelda/Veron/Salihamidzic across the middle. Plenty of work-rate there, and Veron's range of passing, and Salihamidzic and Evra's ability in transitions could help bring Bergkamp/Ronaldo into play nicely.
I wanted to use either mostovoi or Karpin from that Celta Vigo late 90s side. Had I gone with Karpin, I'd also have picked up Srna a lot earlier than he ended up going, and then maybe used Salihamidzic on the left side of midfield. But with mostovoi being the better player at Vigo and conte and Veron being too good to pass up on, I just felt the need to try something obscure. If this were a remake draft and the score was what it is right now, I'd be going on a year long caf hiatus, it's such a good fit for the player poolAye, its alot more fun trying something different, unless no fecker likes it when the match thread goes up
Looking at your squad, I wonder if a narrow 4-4-2, matching Joga's formation I guess, might have worked well. Conte/Albelda/Veron/Salihamidzic across the middle. Plenty of work-rate there, and Veron's range of passing, and Salihamidzic and Evra's ability in transitions could help bring Bergkamp/Ronaldo into play nicely.
Fair enough I get where you are coming from.
Carvalhos also a much bigger cnut.
He looks
.. *** worthy. He's basically the anti-Valencia in that he's wonderfully two footed, I've never seen a full back use his left foot the way he does and his intelligence in the final third is top class. Only gripe is that the video's don't really show his defensive quality, so hard to judge from that respect but you can tell he's a wonderful talent going forwards. Agile, great footwork and can tell he has good recovery pace.Easily be the best right back in the modern game based on that second video alone.
Sorry mate, what I meant was that on paper, he has big name players whereas you are trying to sell more unheralded players outside of that eye-catching front pairing. Thats why in reality, it would be a closer scoreline that what the votes suggest as the players you have are good hard working players. For all of Joga's midfield dominance, I don't see a huge amount of goals from his side, so this game wouldn't be a thrashing and you have a shot of winning this game no doubt.
My issue is that it is a very uphill struggle to compete with that midfield of Joga's because it isn't just a group of famous players, each of those midfielders are also famed for their work-rate, tactical astuteness and technical ability.. even attempting to 'out-battle' that quartet is exceptionally difficult to do and that is why the use of 'grittier' and 'nimbler' players falls short here because the midfielders you're up against are not just classier but have the work-rate to go with it.
Wonderfully put. Although what I will say about Carvalho was that he had a wonderful understanding of the defensive side of the game, he was a maestro in that sense and in that peak of 03-06.. he was stunning as he had that bit of athleticism to his game which truly made him top top class (extra yard of recovery pace and nimbleness during this phase of his career). Mourinho knows a good defender when he sees one and I honestly think Carvalho was the best defender he ever had based on peak performance. He was also very underrated on the ball, go back and watch his performances for Porto and he is effortless on the ball (not really an expansive player but classy, good touch and solid decision making, carries the ball elegantly).
I referred to carvalho as the Portuguese nesta, but he really is a pretty unique defender. He combines the cuntiness of Pepe, the distribution of bonucci, the reading of a game of baresi, the positioning and toughness of Godin and he was a natural leader. I think a bit more pace in him and he'd rightly be recognized as one of the modern greats, if he isn't already.
Nesta is a good comparison in terms of style, although he obviously wasn't in his class.. far from it. I'd definitely put him down as a modern great, when you think of the decades best centre-back pairings, he has to feature in there.
1. Nesta/Cannavaro
2. Ferdinand/Vidic
3. Terry/Carvalho
4. Lucio/Samuel
5. Pique/Puyol
Hated him whilst he was at Chelsea and was delighted when he finally left for Real. Always did appreciate the nasty streak on him though, wasn't afraid to get rough when the occasion called for it, and that's always an useful trait to have, no matter how classy you are (unless you are Scirea that is).
@Joga Bonito
There's no way the result is changing , and I'm really interested which sub you would bring on as you can't bring two of them on. Go on, make a tactical change for the hell of it
There's no way the result is changing , and I'm really interested which sub you would bring on as you can't bring two of them on. Go on, make a tactical change for the hell of it
Wut? It's well known he won't fit in a 2 man midfield, bot why not in a 3? How many midfielder do you think Veron needs as support?
@DavidG that 4-4-2 ish formation was a lot better. Not really sure what Veron adds in that formation. Honestly, you have a stellar team and this scoreline is way too harsh.
Come on, don't tell you you're burnt out on drafts that fast. Be an AM next game, take a breather and then you'll get your fire back.
Too much messing about, as he knows himself. If David had gone with the 4-4-2 this might've been a lot closer, with more of a focus on the insane combo up front. Supported by a more uncomplicated cast (but a quality one, obviously), the pair of them could've won him the match.
Kudos to @DavidG for showcasing several unusual suspects (and personal favourites).
Kudos to @DavidG for showcasing several unusual suspects (and personal favourites).
I agree. The more I look at it the more I really love that 442. Think it gets the most out of everyone on the pitch and is perfect platform to showcase Bergkamp and Ronaldo.
Also great job on Escobar @DavidG
Hmm I'd bring on Park for Seedorf or Nedved (probably the latter, as it'd be interesting to see Park against Evra for various reasons). Park is someone who isn't flashy but very economical and astute with the ball and someone capable of some nifty high tempo inter play. Also fairly two-footed, versatile, industrious, tactically well versed and disciplined. Would slot in seamlessly into my midfield tactically. Helps that he is a big game player too, who can easily fill in for one of Nedved/Seedorf or Möller. He was quite a 'talismanic' player of sorts for Psv and Korea before he took the supporting side of his game up a notch under Fergie. One of those players whom just about any squad will love to have, esp in a draft such as this.@Joga Bonito
There's no way the result is changing , and I'm really interested which sub you would bring on as you can't bring two of them on. Go on, make a tactical change for the hell of it
Pirlo said:
Aye, Salihamidzic and Conte as side midfielders would have been nice with Veron's class and playmaking ability in the midfield. Veron really should have started imo. Was DavidG's best midfielder, and as good and functional Conte-Albelda is, Veron was a class above and would have been the ideal supplyline for that forward duo.
And this @DavidG
No I'm not sick of them, I just have so much going on between January through to June and I have a presentation that if I do well it's gonna open a lot of doors for me ( it's at a tedx event)
That's too bad because I expect a manager to defend his convictions and you could have considered it as a challenge: you make some gifs/streamable links if necessary.
If veron was available at the end of the drafting process, I would have picked him instead of Brolin.
For example, Forlan was not a big success in Manchester but it's pretty easy to demonstrate he's a great player.
but he isn't being played as an advanced midfielder from what I see anyway.Wut? It's well known he won't fit in a 2 man midfield, bot why not in a 3? How many midfielder do you think Veron needs as support?
If there was a LM CM veron CM RM then yes but it's not it's just Veron CM CM.
He'd offer no support for that left flank with evra pushing forward I'm assuming to offer width it would leave too much space
No need to be over the top about it, he'd offer very little protection.
I loved watching Veron on the ball he was a joy and a ton of Ruuds goals came from him and Becks but he doesn't offer much defensively and when you have mad pat going forward id of thought it would be cool to have someone who could cover for him.
Like I say tho just my opinion of Veron
That's what Albelda does. i think a lot of people think that every time you afford players some space, they are going to score. If that were the case then football games would be in the double digit scorelines every week. Players track back, they recover their position and the opposition are not the quickest team from a transitional perspective.
Let's say Evra does get forward. He's only going to wander too far if the game is on his side, and when it is, there will be absolutely no point in Ivanovic being too far forward as he's not exactly someone you switch the play to looking for him to start creating opportunities down the right. So you have a non advanced Ivanovic, who when we lose the ball, can tuck in and make a solid back 3 with Albelda in front and the engine of both Veron and conte ensuring they get back in shape pretty quick. The players on the field and their mentality go a long way to making sure that the other team don't gain much of an advantage in terms of space
Nah, Veron's defensive game is under-rated - played brilliantly in a two-man central midfield partnership for Lazio. Look at some of the highlights of his games around that time, he's a lot more athletic and industrious than many playmaking types. With Albelda and Conte he's got loads of protection and it's similar to how Skizzo/Annah have set up, with the exception that Guardiola offers a bit less of the ball than Veron.
Think the problem here was the aesthetics of the line-up. Had DavidG laid it out like VJ and EAP have done, he'd have secured more votes on presentation alone. That said, I got exactly what he meant and didn't see an issue with it. It's a pity Veron didn't start: the midfield lacked a little sparkle in his absence.
Agreed: Veron should have started.
I think the result, here, was mostly driven by the presence of less known or forgotten players: Mostovoi, Albeda, Escobar... are less easy to sell than Nedved, Xavi, Lucio...
In other words, the Starting 11 of Joga won 13 Champions League Cups against...4 for David (conte, sali, evra, ivanovic).