Surveillance Draft - SF- Tuppet vs Joga Bonito/Gio

Who would win?


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Tuppet

Formation: A balanced, modern 4-2-3-1.
Defense line: Normal.
Philosophy: Direct with high pressing.

Tactically my team plays similar to the Heynckes' brilliant Bayern side. The typical attacking play involve balls being dribbled or crossed into the centre from Zidane/Laudrup without holding much possession and a relatively small amount of direct passing. Both fullbacks are encouraged to make overlapping runs and support attack.

The hard working front 3 of Forlan/Enrique/Laudrup is crucial to win the ball high and put pressure on the opposition defense. Their high work rate allows Zidane to have a free role and focus more on playmaking and attacking through the middle. He is also complemented by the midfield engine of Schweinsteiger and Ince. Ince would take a destroyer role, breaking up play all over the pitch while Basti would be more of an all round playmaker. Its an explosive and mobile midfield duo which is focused mostly on winning the ball back and starting a quick attack. Together the midfield 3 of Zidane/Basti/Ince should be able to dominate both physically and technically any midfield you can throw on them.

Brian Laudrup would play as a typical right winger. He was an exceptional dribbler who can turn over even the best defenders and was able to play all over the front line. Here he would be sitting more wider of the two wingers acting as a wide playmaker. Luis Enrique on the left side would play similar to his Barcelona role and would sit slightly narrower and would be a more direct attacker of the two wingers.

Stam and Cannavaro are strong in the air, excellent tacklers, and fast on their feet – at least in long distance runs. The speed of these players lets them cover large spaces, and they serve as a secure protection against counterattacks. At the same time, they can very proactively use their intelligence, athleticism and strong tackling.
Petr Cech rounds off an excellent defense as one of the finest goalkeeper of the generation.



Joga Bonito/Gio

Mirroring Spain's 2008 fortunes, our side changes from a 4-4-2, to a 4-1-4-1.



UEFA Technical Report said:
...As usual, the Spanish game focused on movement and combination play based on accurate passing, much of it in tight spaces. Marcos Senna steadily gained momentum in the midfield screening position while Andrés Iniesta and David Silva switched between the flanks...

...Although the duel between two cautious, disciplined teams became the third of the four quarter-finals to last two hours, only four substitutions were made – one of them the introduction of Cesc Fábregas, a player who gave a sharper edge to Spain’s middle-to-front play...

...The Russian defenders’ man-marking instincts led them into positional quicksands against a Spanish side where Andrés Iniesta and David Silva constantly interchanged the wide midfield positions. This trend was intensified when, after 34 minutes, David Villa suffered a thigh muscle injury while executing a direct free-kick and was replaced by midfielder Cesc Fábregas. As a result, the Russians had to contend with even more incisive running from midfield positions...

...Spain, on the other hand, used a balanced 4-1-4-1 system that often left Fernando Torres isolated at the apex of the attack. In a five-man midfield, Andrés Iniesta started wide on the left and David Silva on the right wing, but they quickly switched sides and remained there for the rest of the first half. When they lost the ball, the Spanish regrouped into a highly disciplined, compact block with Marcos Senna the “windscreen wiper” between two lines of four...

Just as Fabregas came on for the injured Villa, Scholes is coming on for the relatively more attacking and less midfielder-ish Möller. A few points on how we plan to operate.

ESTABLISHING CONTROL

The key to establishing control starts from the back with an defense which is tactically astute and accomplished on the ball. Our defense is significantly better both defensively, with intelligent all-round defenders who augment the side really well, both defensively and esp, on the ball, with Neuer being key to rounding it all off as the slick ball-playing goalie. Popescu in particular is a great supporting act from the back, with his passing ability and build-up play, with Lucio's occasional rampages forward helping with the unpredictability and fluidity of the side.

-Despite not sporting a great defense (either on the ball or defensively with Capdevila-Marchena-Puyol-Ramos), Spain only conceded a measly 2 goals in the entire tournament, primarily due to the midfield's ability to establish control of proceeding and suffocate opposition's midfield (and their attack).


In midfield, Deschamps would play a pivotal role here, being freed up by Scholes's addition and will play as the 'windscreen wiper', who'd be key in limiting Zidane's influence here, and he offers great protection to the back line and provides the midfielders with the freedom to exhibit their creativity and fluidity - a handy player on the ball too. Xavi would be free to strut his stuff here, with several midfielders on the same wavelength to dovetail with. Arguably the greatest central midfielder of all time, Xavi at his incisive and fluid best, would thrive in this cauldron of fluidity and creativity.

Scholes's introduction changes the dynamics of the side and he offers a significant boost to the midfield whilst amping up the fluidity and freeing up the likes of Xavi, Nedved and Seedorf further (Deschamps too, defensively). He will be a nippy presence in the midfield who'd look to link up with his fellow midfielders whilst posing a goal threat on the ball.

Chapuisat in particular plays a key role. Thriving as the key forward at Dortmund (finishing 13th, 9th and 9th in the ballon d'Or from 1991-1993), Chapuisat was a deadly goalscorer who was technically gifted and most importantly a mobile and a fluid forward who'd augment the side brilliantly. Not only was he a deadly goalscorer, the third highest foreign goalscorer in the Bundesliga history, he was a slippery and a wily operator with his fluid movement and deft skills on the ball, frequently giving defenders the slips. His movement off the ball and his link-up play in particular would be right at the fore here, when combining with our midfielders, whilst his ability to capitalise on the slightest of openings or sniff out chances would result in goals.


OTHER POINTS

As monstrous a pairing Cannavaro-Stam is, the key here isn't taking them head on but to take them out of their comfort zone. Without a conventional spearheading centre-forward or attack to contend with, but rather a fluid attack with forwards frequently drifting into the channels, out wide, exchanging positions and side midfielders moving inwards etc, the goal threat isn't limited to a singular forward or a dangerous wing-forward cutting in. As such it makes it harder to defend against and they don't have a particular offensive target or two to 'shut-down' here.

Deschamps is arguably the best man in the draft to square up against Zidane here, who is extremely pivotal to Tuppet's tactics here as the #10 whom the side revolves around. Whereas, Tuppet can't exactly claim to offer the same level of resistance to Xavi and his fellow midfielders establishing control here.

As good as his midfield is, I'd back our midfield to gain the edge over proceedings here and Schweinsteiger could find his work cut out trying to get to grips with the midfield combinations and fluidity of our side.

Defensively, we are well poised in setting up a chokehold on Tuppet's side with Deschamps posing significant resistance to Zidane, Scholes being a relentless presence in midfield offering plenty of bite and hampering the opposition's midfield, and Xavi's intelligent positioning and industry (covering the most distance in the 2008 Euros and 2010 WC tournaments) posing a compact and complete defensive midfield blockade.

Seedorf and Nedved's physicality and work-rate doesn't need much introduction on here and they can be counted on to make the side more compact defensively. Likewise, Lucio squares up well against Ibra's physicality in the box whilst Popescu would be well versed in dealing with the Swede's threat when dropping deep into the hole, having played as a CB-DM throughout his career. Tuppet could potentially boast two excellent flanks here with Laudrup-Evra and Enrique-Arce but with Nedved-Benarrivo and Babbel-Seedorf, we boast two formidable flanks which are more compact tactically whilst posing a more varied threat on the ball.
 

Balu

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Nice to see Chapuisat in a draft, very underrated player who was sensational in his first few years for Dortmund. Dropped a bit off due to injuries when Dortmund won the 2nd league title and the CL though. If he had played at his peak level between 95 and 97, he would have been rated a lot higher (and Dortmund would have been even stronger). Not sure I'd call him a deadly goalscorer, that seems a bit over the top. He had great goalscoring seasons but his goal record wasn't really what defined him as a player.

Also great to see that fecking Fabio Grosso isn't in the team anymore. (Sadly he still made the bench, didn't he? Sorry.)
 

Joga Bonito

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Good luck @Tuppet , have voted for myself to see the score.

Interesting set-up that, and I can see Ince coming in for Sousa being a fairly astute move myself, and it's a nice team overall imo. Not overly convinced on Forlan as a lone centre-forward without another fellow forward to dovetail with (a #10 in Zidane, hardworking wide midfielder in Enrique, a decent goalscoring threat but not a forward, and a winger in Laudrup).

A couple of points straight off the bat, as stated in the OP, we aren't relying on head to head individual battles to gain the edge here but rather depending on the system dynamics to move the ball around quickly, drag players around, create openings and capitalise on it. That's not to say, Tuppet's side will be easily out-maneuvered here as he has a sturdy unit but we do believe we have the right set-up to maximise the effectiveness of our personnel, who imo will thrive in such a set-up.

Firstly, more on Chapuisat and the role he plays and what he brings to the side.

As Balu himself said, he brought more to the table than just sheer goals and wasn't a pure goalscorer by any means. His movement off the ball, link-up play and ability to give the defenders the slip were excellent, in addition to his bread and butter - predatory instincts in the penalty box. He'd be able to pose a versatile threat here with his fluid movement - has played alongside the front line for Dortmund in various roles - and ability to combine with my midfield and Scholes in particular.


Gifs of Chapuisat against Juve (Highlighting his hold-up play, fluid movement and giving Montero a tough time with his skills)










A goal of great skill in the UEFA Cup 92/93, where Chapuisat fired them to the final as their top scorer




Very nearly gives the lead with a great off the ball run and a near-miss before, a predatory finish in a tightly fought 1-0 win gives Dortmund's the CL quarter final win against fierce rivals Bayern, featuring Matthäus as the libero.




Puts the ball right through Matthäus for a glorious assist





As you can see his movement off the ball, deft touches and esp his ability to function as the roaming forward would create plenty of space and openings for his teammates. In particular, as shown in the gifs against Juve, one could expect him to combine with Nedved in his favoured left-hand channels and drag out Stam, create openings and seek to exploit Arce in particular. Thus it isn't a straightforward role he is playing here in the box, 'squaring up against' Stam-Cannavaro but rather as a roaming and a mobile centre-forward.


A great video of his goals for those interested




Nice to see Chapuisat in a draft, very underrated player who was sensational in his first few years for Dortmund.
Indeed, and he was one of the best forwards in the world during the early nineties, as evidenced by his 12th, 9th, 9th finishes in the Ballon d'Or from 1991-1993. If I'm not mistaken he's widely regarded as Dortmund's greatest centre-forward (if we consider Emmerich as a wing-forward), or at least one of their greatest.


His goalscoring record in the Bundesliga is pretty damn good too, as you've stated, (finishing as a top 3 goalscorer 4 times during the nineties) in what was a fairly strong era for the Germany and Bundesliga (1990 WC winners, 1992 Euros final and 1996 Euros winners), where the likes of Matthäus, Sammer, Effenberg, Kohler, Hassler, Möller, Brehme, Klinsmann, Lizarazu etc plied their trade. Just a shame that he had to suffer those injuries during the mid nineties when Dortmund hit peak form and won consecutive Bundesligas and the CL but nonetheless, he was a key fixture for that Dortmund side both domestically and in Europe.

He had great goalscoring seasons but his goal record wasn't really what defined him as a player.
Yeah, agreed. It was precisely because of his all-round mobile and technical make that we decided to draft him in ahead of a few more well-renowned names, who weren't suited to our approach. As expected the response was extremely underwhelming but I didn't really have the time to truly portray him game-play unfortunately.

Also great to see that fecking Fabio Grosso isn't in the team anymore.
:lol:


The set-up is fairly straight-forward and the onus is on crisp short passing, fluidity (with Seedorf-Nedved in particular exchanging positions and having free roles), establishing control, creating and capitalising on openings, which has been expanded in the OP. As good as Tuppet's midfield is, I'd back ours to have the edge over him in terms of gaining a strangle-hold on the match and limiting the influence of Zidane and his forwards. Likewise, a fluid forward who suits this side to a tee (imo) and would elevate the system whilst posing considerable goalscoring threat.

Defensively I believe we are well-set up with our flanks squaring up well against Tuppet's wing duo. Nedved and Seedorf have the industry and tactical nous to be relied on to reduce/nullify Tuppet's wing-back duo whilst Babbel is an astute defensive full-back who would be at home dealing with Enrique's fairly narrow-ish tendencies, with Benarrivo being capable of gaining a handle on Laudrup's trickery. That being said, I believe the key is to nullify Zidane here, who is the prime playmaker for Tuppet's side, and there's no one better for this job than Deschamps, as stated in the OP. That's not to underestimate Schweinsteiger's influence here but that is where the influence of Scholes and Xavi comes in, with their bite, tactical understanding of the game and work rate comes in. Not much needs to be said about the tenacity and the all-rounded game of Scholes but Xavi's work off the ball tends to be underrated at times. Within this particular frame-work, with fellow midfielders on the same wave-length, you can expect the Xavi to be a force in the middle defensively, with his ability off the ball when it comes to blocking off passing lanes, pressing opposition players and shepherding them to dead ends etc. That's not to understate his ubiquitous nature off the ball, after all he covered the most distance in the 2008 Euros and 2010 WC tournaments.
 
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Balu

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Indeed, and he was one of the best forwards in the world during the early nineties, as evidenced by his 12th, 9th, 9th finishes in the Ballon d'Or from 1991-1993. If I'm not mistaken he's widely regarded as Dortmund's greatest centre-forward (if we consider Emmerich as a wing-forward), or at least one of their greatest.
Yeah, you could fit both Emmerich and Chapuisat together in an alltime XI. Manni Burgsmüller deserves to be mentioned as well if we're talking about the greatest forwards Dortmund had. I'd argue that Lewandowski's peak is the highest of them all. Don't think he'd make it into many Dortmund all time XIs though, certainly not the ones made by Dortmund fans. Lewandowski isn't really disliked, but he's just not a club legend like the other three.

I guess a front three of Emmerich, Chapuisat and Libuda is probably still the best choice. It's actually an interesting discussion. Not sure if Reus and/or Lewandowski have to make the alltime XI, even though someone from this era probably should. Reus doesn't deserve it in my opinion because he wasn't part of the two title winning teams. But that's for another thread (unless this one is a borefest ;) )
 

antohan

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Not a huge fan of the Popescu and Lucio pairing, both very attack-minded. Can defend, sure, but if both resorted to their more remarkable traits the defence would be a shambles. Don't think Deschamps can live with Zidane either. Xavi and Scholes are more talented than Schweinsteiger and Ince, but I think the latter pair would be better suited to imposing themselves on the game. Chapuisat is alright but I'd expect more than him in a semi.

Basically, Tuppet's spine is far more robust and that will win him the game unless something drastic happens due to injuries.
 

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Way too much emphasis on midfield and really underwhelming goal threats/outlets from both teams at this stage. It's going to be a really cagey affair with little end product from either side. Only player capable on the pitch with the individual brilliance required to unlock this game is Zidane, hence my vote for Tuppet.
 

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Not really sure on Joga midfield. Looks to be 4 similar players. And lack of goal threat overall.

Chapusiat will be stranded against Cannavaro/Stam with Schweini/Ince providing the shield against Joga's midfielders moving up. Nedved's movement will be tough to handle, but still I don't see that converting to goal threat that much.
 

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I don't see much goal threat coming from Joga against Tuppet's defense there. I appreciate @Joga Bonito taking the time to highlight Chapuisat. I don't really remember him myself, but the gifs and the qualities highlighted don't really seem to be the clinical finishing that's needed here. I just see an overall lack of goal threat so even if Joga keeps possession I don't see much threat resulting from it. While Forlan, Enrique and Brian Laudrup aren't the biggest goal scorers I can see them having more joy against that defense than the reverse.
 

Šjor Bepo

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quality wise tuppet probably edges gio/joga team but tactics wise he stood right on the mine....high pressing against that team, it wont end well IMO
And i dont think there is lack of goals in that team, other then their striker they have a goalscoring version of Scholes, Nedved is a goal-threat as well....
 

Theon

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There's a lack of penetration throughout Joga's side and I don't think the balance is quite right in midfield - a dynamic winger/forward instead of Seedorf is needed here in my opinion.
 

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Whilst I think Tuppet has more penetration and will win, we have to acknowledge that the Spain 2012 Euro winning side had as much penetration as the elder Pele yet they beat Italy 4-0 in the final. I do think Italy played into their hands with a diamond and not reverting to dedicated wing-backs yet the scoreline is astonishing. An interesting discussion would be, would Tuppet's side beat the 2012 Spain team, if not I think Joga may have more of a chance than I would first think
 

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Best of luck @Joga Bonito @Gio

From a quick scan of the page, there is nothing too controversial posted anywhere and I agree with most of the points. Zidane is absolutely instrumental to how my side play, what I obviously don't agree with is that Deschamps could stop him. Great DM that he was, Zidane at his best destroyed better players than him. Basti's presence also important in that he could share the creative burden and relieve Zidane under pressure.

Forlan is not the most flashy striker, but he did win European golden shoe award twice, was 2 times La Liga highest goal scorer and was highest goal scorer in WC 10. He is perfectly capable of channeling all the creativity behind him in goals.
 

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Further to @Physiocrat's point about Spain 2012, the idea behind such a possession-dominant set-up is partly about sacrificing individual goal threats to ensure greater control of the ball, the territory and the game. I actually think we have more individual goal threat than that Spain team through the abilities of our midfielders from around the edge of the box. Dominating the ball should ensure we regularly get to 25-30 yards out and that is where the likes of Pavel Nedved, Paul Scholes and Clarence Seedorf come into their own with their long-range shooting and, with the former two, ability to make that penetrating run behind the defence. It's also where the passing of Xavi, Scholes and Seedorf comes into its own. They excel at the penetrating ball inbetween two defenders and Nedved, Scholes and Chapuisat have the intelligence and mobility to make these runs. By contrast, I see Tuppet's main creative outlet Zidane having to make do with a lot less service, starved by seeing a little less of the ball, and often from well inside his own half.
 

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Not a huge fan of the Popescu and Lucio pairing, both very attack-minded.
I get what you're saying because they can both go, but don't really see it as an issue because neither are stupid enough to do so at the same time. It helps when you've got a right-back in Marcus Babbel who was very good at tucking in to cover (see how he did so for Sammer's runs in Euro '96) and doing a ruthless man-marking job through the middle. I'd also add that the best season of Lucio's career was under Mourinho's super-disciplined Inter that won the treble in 2009. And generally I take it as a plus rather than a negative that we have defenders with good ability on the ball as it complements the overall approach and midfield in front of them.
 

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I get what you're saying because they can both go, but don't really see it as an issue because neither are stupid enough to do so at the same time. It helps when you've got a right-back in Marcus Babbel who was very good at tucking in to cover (see how he did so for Sammer's runs in Euro '96) and doing a ruthless man-marking job through the middle. I'd also add that the best season of Lucio's career was under Mourinho's super-disciplined Inter that won the treble in 2009. And generally I take it as a plus rather than a negative that we have defenders with good ability on the ball as it complements the overall approach and midfield in front of them.
They are not stupid, I agree, but I'd prefer either of them to play their own game to their full potential and have some other chap whose performance at full potential is related to providing the cover. Similar to the issue I have with Xavi-Scholes, I don't think they add up to the sum of parts.

Here we are at the semifinal stage and I still liked Joga's side better in the first round.
 

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They are not stupid, I agree, but I'd prefer either of them to play their own game to their full potential and have some other chap whose performance at full potential is related to providing the cover. Similar to the issue I have with Xavi-Scholes, I don't think they add up to the sum of parts.

Here we are at the semifinal stage and I still liked Joga's side better in the first round.
The old-Scholes CM and SS wasn't that much of a passer in a controlling sense so I don't think Xavi and Scholes will clash that much, in fact Xavi could get a lot of assists from playing through Scholes with his excellent movement
 

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The old-Scholes CM and SS wasn't that much of a passer in a controlling sense so I don't think Xavi and Scholes will clash that much, in fact Xavi could get a lot of assists from playing through Scholes with his excellent movement
I'm not saying they clash, I just think they overlap in their contribution, while Deschamps needs more help with Zidane than he will get from either.
 

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The old-Scholes CM and SS wasn't that much of a passer in a controlling sense so I don't think Xavi and Scholes will clash that much, in fact Xavi could get a lot of assists from playing through Scholes with his excellent movement
How old are we talking here? He's played as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2 with two centre forwards doing the business up front since I can remember.
 

Physiocrat

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How old are we talking here? He's played as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2 with two centre forwards doing the business up front since I can remember.
My understanding was that it was Scholes from the early 2000s (I may have been confusing by saying old, I meant young Scholes but a longer time ago) who played as an SS and also as a narrow left winger - the Newcastle game they linked a while back Giggs played as a second-stirker with Scholes on the left with Keane and Butt in the middle. In the 02-03 season he scored 14 league goals when he played further forward.
 

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Marchena-Puyol was an excellent defense though. Maybe not big names but they get the job done.
 

Theon

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How old are we talking here? He's played as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2 with two centre forwards doing the business up front since I can remember.
Scholes started out as a second striker when he first broke into the first team squad, it was only in the late-90's that he moved into midfield - but even then I remember him sitting out on some of the bigger games in favour of Butt. I presume the version of Scholes they are using though is from 2001-03, who regularly played further forward again behind Ruud after we signed Veron. That's how I remember it anyway.
 

Joga Bonito

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My understanding was that it was Scholes from the early 2000s (I may have been confusing by saying old, I meant young Scholes but a longer time ago) who played as an SS and also as a narrow left winger - the Newcastle game they linked a while back Giggs played as a second-stirker with Scholes on the left with Keane and Butt in the middle. In the 02-03 season he scored 14 league goals when he played further forward.

Indeed.

"The season I enjoyed most in my career was the one when I played a lot of games up front with Ruud. It's the only time I've managed 20 goals in a season."

He broke the 20-goal barrier essentially as a no.10, sat behind Ruud, pulling the strings to United's attacks. Scholes, too, hit a hat-trick against Newcastle, in a 6-2 thumping at St James' Park.
Inter making a near world-record bid for him during this period said:
**July 11th 2000: Inter president confirms £31m offer for Paul Scholes
“Yes it is true. The story is correct. We are very much interested in signing Paul Scholes. Unfortunately for us, it appears Manchester United are not prepared to release Scholes at the moment. It is going to be very hard for us to get him.”

July 12th 2000: Agent Pino Pagliara tells Moratti to give up on Scholes
“I told Moratti Scholes is a “mission impossible” man. It’s more than money with him. He was born just a few blocks away from Old Trafford. It’ s about wearing United’ s colours. United say it will only happen if the board, player and manager all agree.”


A taste of what Scholes can do


A fabulous assist and a cracking goal against Italy. One can expect similar dynamics with the foraging Chapuisat here, with both having interchanging goalscoring and creative roles as per the given phase of the game.




Outwitting the defensive midfielder of his generation in Makelele, and playing a great game overall. With Xavi to dovetail with on the ball and of course, Chapuisat being a willing and a canny runner capable of linking up with him and creating openings, Scholes will be pivotal in gaining control of midfield, disrupting the opposition's midfield play and of course providing a notable goalscoring threat.



Not a huge fan of the Popescu and Lucio pairing, both very attack-minded
Not necessarily, Lucio showed he could play a disciplined role for Mourinho and I consider his peak to be under Mourinho's Inter where he was amongst the best defenders, if not the best defender in the world.

but the gifs and the qualities highlighted don't really seem to be the clinical finishing that's needed here.
Do watch the video of Chapuisat that I posted. He was a centre-forward, who was primarily a goalscorer but someone with quite a few strings to his bow, as I've mentioned above.

Forlan is not the most flashy striker, but he did win European golden shoe award twice, was 2 times La Liga highest goal scorer and was highest goal scorer in WC 10. He is perfectly capable of channeling all the creativity behind him in goals.
Definitely, I love Forlan to bits myself and you won't hear me try and downplay him. It's just that I don't think Forlan ahead of Zidane, with Laudrup and Enrique out wide in optimal imo. Forlan played as a free forward for the most part and was more of a roaming forward who loved dropping deep and onto the channels as opposed to being a spearheading lone centre-forward (which is what your set-up dictates with Laudrup-Zidane-Enrique behind). At his best for Atletico he generally played with Aguero and I can't recall him playing as a lone centre-forward for Uruguay either. As a free roaming forward in a forward duo, I can see him working a treat with all the creativity behind him but not in this particular set-up which requires a more disciplined focal point.

I'm not saying they clash, I just think they overlap in their contribution,
Not this particular version of Scholes we are using. Xavi is more of the controlling midfielder whilst Scholes is more of the direct and incisive midfielder who can chip in with goals and assists, whilst contributing to the midfield off the ball. No different to what the young peak and dynamic Fabregas offered, but on a different level altogether.

Marchena-Puyol was an excellent defense though. Maybe not big names but they get the job done.
Definitely, but I'd say Lucio-Popescu is an upgrade on them in terms of how they fit the side, with their ease on the ball. One of the weaknesses of that Spanish side was that they seemed to lack some top notch ball-playing defenders at the back with Capdevila-Marchena-Puyol-Ramos (not at his peak), and we believe we have significantly upgraded that with our back-line, least of all Neuer who would slot in seamlessly and is an upgrade on Casillas imo.


Once again goalscoring threat is not just limited to boasting sheer firepower, with great goalscoring individuals but rather being able to truly execute the system in the best way possible (as Spain found out post Villa in the Euros 2008), although of course you could have both. With the change from a duo strike-force of Torres & Villa, Spain went up a notch further with the likes of Fabregas, Silva and Iniesta being given more room to manuevre in and also increase their goalscoring threats significantly (via their ability to find and create openings and capitalise on them), despite not being 'prolific goalscorers'. In Nedved and Seedorf we have two relatively good goalscoring midfielders who would have their goalscoring threats further enhanced here. Both were two footed, capable of making dangerous and relentless runs into the box, whilst boasting one heck of a shot outside the box. This isn't exactly a 4-5-1/4-3-3, with a lot of goalscoring burden on 2 prime goalscoring sources (Forlan & Enrique - who happen to be up against Lucio and Babbel - for Tuppet for example) but rather a more fluid set-up with the burden being distributed relatively more evenly. Take Spain 08 post Villa, after Torres they had the likes of Fabregas, Iniesta, Silva, Xavi, Senna and in 2012 they had the likes of Fabregas, Iniesta, Silva, Xavi, Busquets, Alonso - two immensely successful sides which boasted far less goalscoring threat to what we have on show here. Now I'm not saying every possession based side is going to be successful or elevate their midfielder's goalscoring potential but so long as you can establish control and if they personnel and the system clicks, then there's a very good chance that you will create openings and chances. Another factor to consider would be that neither of those 2 sides have faced as good a defense and midfield such as Tuppet's, but imo neither's combined penetration and goalscoring threat were as good our current side.

I wouldn't go so far as to claim Deschamps would shut Zidane here but he's one of the best DMs in the draft who's capable of doing a good job of reducing Zidane's influence and that too with the help of two industrious midfielders in Scholes-Xavi, and of course Seedorf-Nedved as compact side midfielders who form a solid unit off the ball. On the other hand, I can't see Arce gaining a handle on Nedved-Benarrivo duo, which would require cover from Stam/Ince, opening up space and time in the middle. Likewise, Forlan, tuppet's chief goalscoring threat isn't necessarily utilised in an optimal fashion here imo.
 
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Joga Bonito

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A great article on how the switch from a strike duo to Fabregas changed Spain's fortunes and elevated them up a notch.

https://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/spain-442-4231/


Some snippets on how Chapuisat as a free roaming centre-forward who'd frequently be drifting onto the channels and wings, can help creating openings for our midfielders and elevate their goalscoring potential just as Torres's intuitive off the ball movement did for Spain.

Benarrivo-Nedved-Chapuisat could have a lot of joy down that left flank and left hand channels in this match-up.

In the second-half is when the benefit of changing to a five-man midfield really paid off. For the first goal, the move started with Senna moving the ball to Xavi, who has found space in between the midfield and defence. As the ball has moved quickly and there is playmaker looking to get the ball, the wingers, Iniesta and Fàbregas in this situation are placed high up the pitch (as compared to sitting deep in first two diagrams in the article).



Xavi moves the ball quickly to Iniesta. The important thing here is that Torres has drifted wide, he has noticed that Zhirkov (purple) is not in position, so he can drag the left sided centre back out to create space for the on-rushing Fabregas, subsequently taking the right-sided centre back with him, creating space (yellow area) in the middle for Xavi to move into.



With Torres pulling wide, it has creates spaces for attacking midfielders to move in to. This diagram really highlights how this goal is going to pan out. Fàbregas will take three defenders with him to the front post whilst Torres will occupy the defender on the far-post. Xavi who is the deepest of the players involved, will look to find a gap in between the two centre-backs.



The goal comes as Iniesta moves onto his right foot and Xavi is able to get into the space and score with a great lunge across the flight of the ball.



This demonstrates the real benefit of Spain having a playmaker who is available when the ball is deep in midfield. In Fernando Torres and David Villa they have intelligent strikers who know how to work defences to create space. With three or even four on-rushing midfielders they can effectively exploit the space created through the runs of either of the two strikers.

The benefit of having a trequartista again manifests in the second goal. Fàbregas is given the ball early and is supported by both Iniesta and Silva.



As Silva strides with the ball to the half way line new substitute David Güiza moves from the centre to the outside right channel.



As Alex Ferguson said, attackers are a lot more dangerous moving inward from wide than the other way around. The ball is moved back and, David Güiza bursts inside and Fàbregas with a subtle touch feeds the ball into the path of Güizawho chips Akinfeev for their second.
 
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Joga Bonito

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Another brilliant game by Scholes, setting up a goal and scoring a cracking goal against the Arse. Do note his incisiveness and the penetration he offers.

 

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Definitely, but I'd say Lucio-Popescu is an upgrade on them in terms of how they fit the side, with their ease on the ball. One of the weaknesses of that Spanish side was that they seemed to lack some top notch ball-playing defenders at the back with Capdevila-Marchena-Puyol-Ramos (not at his peak), and we believe we have significantly upgraded that with our back-line, least of all Neuer who would slot in seamlessly and is an upgrade on Casillas imo.
I dont think I agree, I wouldn't take either of your CBs over Puyol for Spain or Barcelona set ups.

I wouldn't go so far as to claim Deschamps would shut Zidane here but he's one of the best DMs in the draft who's capable of doing a good job of reducing Zidane's influence and that too with the help of two industrious midfielders in Scholes-Xavi and of course Seedorf-Nedved as compact side midfielders who form a solid unit off the ball.
Well, the question would naturally arise how much reduction in the influence of Zidane would happen and if thats enough for changing the game. I don't think that peak Zidane with the supporting cast he has here could be stopped by Deschamps alone, you would likely need another DM to help him out.

There is a reason why Zidane has a reputation of being a big game player. Take for example his one of the first big games when he arrive in Italy against Sacchi's Milan. Zidane was directly against Desailly but helped his team to hand over Sacchi's worst ever defeat 6-1. Even more amazing was the fact that Juve did not have the likes of Del Piero, Conte, Deschamps, and Montero in the match.


La Stampa's rating claimed that Zidane "made Desailly suffer". Zidane's individual rating claimed that his performance "transcended the goal he scored".


One interesting thing that you can see from above videos is somewhat underrated work ethic of Zidane. I would argue that Basti/Ince/Zidane would make it hard for your midfield as well and definitely curb the influence of Scholes much better. Basti has done battle with Spanish mids all over his career and held his own for most part to a much superior Xavi/Iniesta/Busquests midfield.

On the other hand, I can't see Arce gaining a handle on Nedved-Benarrivo duo, which would require cover from Stam/Ince, opening up space and time in the middle. Likewise, Forlan, tuppet's chief goalscoring threat isn't necessarily utilised in an optimal fashion here imo.
On this point, it works both ways, Benarrivo is not going to have an easy time against Laudrup by any means. Arce was much like Neville in that he did not have to rampage down the other end of the field to have an impact, with his great crossing he can do the damage from deep, which is why he can stay back and stay compact on Nedved. Just check out this small video on Laudrup, that lad was exceptional -
 

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I was comfortable with Seedorf on the right on 4-4-2 but as a right winger in 4-5-1 he is far from ideal, even with this very specific approach.
Will think on it.
 

Joga Bonito

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From 21.06, for those interested in seeing more of Scholes function in a similar role to the one he's playing here.

I dont think I agree, I wouldn't take either of your CBs over Puyol for Spain or Barcelona set ups.
That's fair enough as Puyol fit in quite well in those set-ups with his ability to play the high line and his leadership etc.

There is a reason why Zidane has a reputation of being a big game player.
Zidane is arguably the best player on the pitch (although I'd have him in the 2nd tier of all time greats in the #10 position whilst having Xavi as arguably the greatest playmaking central midfielder of all time alongside Didi) but whilst Zidane did have some great big games, he's also failed to appear in a fair few of them, with he himself admitting he's had issues with consistency etc. In the right set-up I wouldn't place Xavi's match-winning influence any lower than Zidane myself, although it's a contentious point and would say the Spaniard was more consistent.

On this point, it works both ways, Benarrivo is not going to have an easy time against Laudrup by any means. Arce was much like Neville in that he did not have to rampage down the other end of the field to have an impact, with his great crossing he can do the damage from deep, which is why he can stay back and stay compact on Nedved. Just check out this small video on Laudrup, that lad was exceptional -
Tbf, the gulf in class between Nedved-Arce and Benarrivo-Laudrup is pretty significant. Whilst Benarrivo was an excellent attacking FB, he was an astute defender and someone who excelled in Serie A during one of its toughest eras, and was an important player for Italy in their run-up to the 1994 WC final. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for Arce who happens to be up against one of the best players on the pitch in Nedved, someone whose dynamism, creativity and two-way game made him an explosive cocktail to deal with at his prime. His match-winning exploits for Czech Republic and ballon d'Or winning form for Juve, can't be overlooked here. Arce definitely has his work cut out for him as the weakest player on the pitch imo.

 

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My memory is poor. Have you recruited new players before that game?
 

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Tbf, the gulf in class between Nedved-Arce and Benarrivo-Laudrup is pretty significant. Whilst Benarrivo was an excellent attacking FB, he was an astute defender and someone who excelled in Serie A during one of its toughest eras, and was an important player for Italy in their run-up to the 1994 WC final. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for Arce who happens to be up against one of the best players on the pitch in Nedved, someone whose dynamism, creativity and two-way game made him an explosive cocktail to deal with at his prime. His match-winning exploits for Czech Republic and ballon d'Or winning form for Juve, can't be overlooked here. Arce definitely has his work cut out for him as the weakest player on the pitch imo.
That might be so, I think its the style difference which is important here. Laudrup was a better dribbler and a more direct player than Nedved, who was a better overall player. Laudrup would engage a full back better and would make it hard for Benarrivo to move further forward in the pitch. Arce as I have mentioned wasn't really running up and down rampaging fullback, that job is for Evra on the other side. As for weakest player I think its between him and Babbel, who lest we forget doesn't have an easy ride against Lucho as well. But even then I'll concede that Nedved on Arce is your most likely attacking threat. My midfield two can more or less stifle your creativity from scholes better than Deschamps can hope to do against Zidane.

But IMO the biggest difference maker in the game is my defense against your attack. I just can't see Chapuisat getting better of Stam/Cannavaro/Cech. Even if Nedved beats Arce sometime, his options are far too limited, than Laudrup if he beats Benarrivo. Forlan is a better forward, supported by the best player on the pitch and playing against a lesser defense, that IMO should give me edge to win this game.
 
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Joga Bonito

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I think its the style difference which is important here. Laudrup was a better dribbler and a more direct player than Nedved,
I'd say Laudrup was a better dribbler, but 'more direct' is not exactly true as Nedved was one of the more direct and explosive players who always looked to make things happen on the ball.

Arce as I have mentioned wasn't really running up and down rampaging fullback, that job is for Evra on the other side.
He was a fairly talented player on the ball but it won't necessarily help him defensively here against Nedved or Benarrivo for that matter.

As for weakest player I think its between him and Babbel, who lest we forget doesn't have an easy ride against Lucho as well.
Babbel is imo a tier or two above Arce and someone who has solid credentials both on the domestic stage and international stage - part of the Euro 1996 winning vintage in a solid backline and being a reliable presence at the back for Bayern. In fact, he's precisely the sort of defensively astute FB I'd have against a narrow-ish Luis Enrique, whilst Arce is hardly the full-back to deal with Nedved here.

My midfield two can more or less stifle your creativity from scholes
The difference being that we don't just have Scholes to rely on for creativity here but rather Xavi as the playmaking midfielder and both the wide midfielders here and even Chapuisat to an extent. That being said, neither of my wide midfielders are playing as high up the pitch as forwards who'd need to rely on service from playmakers etc, they were great at collecting balls from deeper positions and were excellent at carrying the ball forward themselves.

Even if Nedved beats Arce sometime, his options are far too limited,
Not neccessarily with Seedorf, Chapuisat and Scholes waiting to break in, esp Chapuisat who was brilliant in the inside left channels and could find an opening, or create an opening by dragging Stam out wide for Scholes or Seedorf to capitalise on.

Forlan is a better forward,
He definitely is, but he isn't a lone centre-forward though. You are yet to clarify his role in your side and Forlan isn't the type to play a positionally reserved lone forward, which is sub-optimal and won't get the best out of him. With Zidane being the #10, a fairly conventional right winger in Laudrup and a wide midfielder in Enrique, it doesn't seem to be the sort of set-up Forlan would thrive in imo. And a huge bulk of your goalscoring threat comes from him, with the fairly specialist creative cast behind him.

than Laudrup if he beats Benarrivo
Laudrup has only Forlan and Enrique to aim at, the former who imo is in an ill-suited role which doesn't suite his game-play, whilst the latter plays against a defensively solid RB who is more than capable of tracking Enrique's forays inwards.
 

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An example of the type of game my team would be looking to play, and esp how Zidane would operate in this game is the France-Spain game from WC 06 -



Now disclaimer is obvious, even though Spain had a pretty good Xavi-Xabi-Fabregas midfield they hadn't reach their peak yet and J/G's midfield is better than that. Still the approach is very similar and the quality in other places is comparable except Nedved is much better from left than Torres. Alright with that out of the way, my team is set up in a similar fashion to France here.

Zidane-Henry partnership is quite similar to Zidane-Forlan partnership, and I don't see any reason for Forlan to not work out in a similar way. Both France and my teams are set up in 4-2-3-1 with powerful midfield and formidable defense. But more importantly the approach of both teams are also very similar. Spain dominated possession throughout the game just like J/G set up to do. While France' attacking approach was to use physicality to force a turnover in midfield, and then use some swift, purposeful play in possession to score goals.

Zidane is ofcourse the main playmaker of the team, one through whom the whole game should flow. He is one of the two main routes for my team, the other is to use the finishing and hold up play of Forlan. Now the first France goal here is the ideal goal for my team - Viera won the ball and slipped it behind a high defense to Ribery, which is why Basti's presence is so important in this game. His creativity gives another route for my team in case Zidane doesn't work out. He does usually work out though and helped a 3-1 win with a goal.


Again I am not saying that would necessarily happen in this game, the point of this video is to show Zidane's (and my team's) approach against a possession oriented midfield. Ribery's big influence would be replicated via Laudrup in my team, who is a better player at his peak than young Ribery who hasn't reached his peak yet.
 

Joga Bonito

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Good game @Tuppet. That's a fine team you've assembled and I couldn't believe how Zidane lasted down to you.

Do think you should get a centre forward and play Enrique as the RB with Forlan playing as the LWF behind a forward and you'd be great imo.



In hindsight I shouldn't have gone overboard with Xavi and Seedorf as they simply blocked too many players but I don't regret it one bit as my prime intention was to build the side around him and I knew it would have been hard to improve my initial side or progress significantly. Far too often he's had to play a normal supporting deep-ish role in a 4-2-3-1 without the full reins of the side being handed over to him, like he had been at his peak. Although it would be interesting to see if an all time side built around him in such a set up could outmanouvre a side built around a more flashy great.

Yashin

Carlos Alberto Beckenbauer Nesta Santos
........Rijkaard
Xavi........
Gullit.........Suarez......Charlton
Müller​

Beckenbauer in his 1972 supporting role. Something like that with the Spanish Barca version of Suarez :drool::drool::drool: would have been feckin brilliant, all great players who've incidentally have won the Ballon dor (coincidence) and filled with favorites of mine. Plenty of tactical nous, graft, goal threat and individualism flowing through the side without taking anything away from Xavi's game play.

Definitely the wrong draft to build too specific a system given the restrictions but I knew I wouldn't be able to play again for some time, so might as well give it a shot now.
 

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@Joga Bonito Great fighter :)

The upshot isn't a surprise with 2 daring gambles: Chapuisat as a lonely CF and Seedorf on the right wing.

I've voted for you because your midfielder are so talented and smart that I think they could play together.

So, I expected a very tight game with hazardous goals.

Now that I'm thinking about it, Luis Enrique vs Babbel is maybe the biggest mismatch.