Yeah, that's what a naive person would think. Upon studious examination of the 'facts' however... Have a read, it's very entertaining.
Tactical Masterclass
- Thread starter ivaldo
- Start date
Compared to listening to the Chavs/Berties/Dippers/Gooners?
Conte not rotating and/or not having squad depth is not a stick to beat Jose with, that's Conte's fault. We have injuries to two of our four defenders, Zlatan has played almost always, even considering we've played much more games than Chelsea, yet we've managed to maintain freshness compared to a team who have had the luxury of focusing solely on the Premier League. Yea... not buying that rubbish. Conte's mismanagement of his squad hardly has any relevance on the result, that's on him, doesn't make what Jose pulled off any less impressive. We had 3 days rest before this game, Chelsea had 8.
Even with the greater number of games, Jose has managed to use his squad better, factoring in the injuries etc. as well. If anything that makes Jose's feat even more impressive
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Entertaining as in sort of comedy article? Because that Journo hates Jose and writes loads of bs articles about him. He is like Anti Duncan Castles.
Involuntary comedy, yes.
Foundational victory, hopefully, for you lot, but still CL spot a pretty long way to go, so keep calm and look ahead.
I saw a lot more intensive pressure on the ball holders further up the field than we normally do. Sure we won shitloads of trophies during the SAF era, but he never used that style, nor did Moyes, LVG and Mou doesn't seem to use it normally either...
Other teams do it a lot and it's frustrating to watch and when we don't it's even more frustrating. Not saying we should adopt cause it seemed to work quite well earlier without it and Liverpool who use this haven't won shit for ages...
Why don't you think we use it? Our squad not suited for that type of play or is there any other reason?
Other teams do it a lot and it's frustrating to watch and when we don't it's even more frustrating. Not saying we should adopt cause it seemed to work quite well earlier without it and Liverpool who use this haven't won shit for ages...
Why don't you think we use it? Our squad not suited for that type of play or is there any other reason?
I find it surprising how brittle some players become when they get man marked. Herrera is not even a specialist in defending, yet he made Hazard nearly anonymous throughout the game.
Other than that, I feel the lingard and Rashford partnership was mere coincidence, rather than a tactical masterclass. With an important game midweek, Mourinho would much rather focus on that game than the Chelsea one. If we did not have that game, I bet Zlatan would have started upfront.
What that game did show was that we have great squad depth, but we could do with a stronger first 11.
Other than that, I feel the lingard and Rashford partnership was mere coincidence, rather than a tactical masterclass. With an important game midweek, Mourinho would much rather focus on that game than the Chelsea one. If we did not have that game, I bet Zlatan would have started upfront.
What that game did show was that we have great squad depth, but we could do with a stronger first 11.
It's actually two days, if you consider they got back from Belgium in the early hours Friday morning.
Rashford Lingard
Pogba Fellaini
Young Valencia
Darmian Herrera
Rojo Bailley
De Gea
Was this our formation?
Pogba Fellaini
Young Valencia
Darmian Herrera
Rojo Bailley
De Gea
Was this our formation?
Ken Early. A fecking grade A bluffer. Knows nothing about the game.
That one who wrote this article clearly has an agenda against Jose.
Was this our formation?
Lingard Rashford
Pogba Fellaini
Young Valencia
Darmian Herrera(floating)
Rojo Bailly
DDG
Lingard Rashford
Pogba Fellaini
Young Valencia
Darmian Herrera(floating)
Rojo Bailly
DDG
You don't need to say this as it's clear from the article that his knowledge about football is probably of the same level as my knowledge of Ice Hockey
The result yesterday shouldnt come as a shock to anybody. We are as good as anybody at defending and counter attacking which is why our away record is so good.
The problem we have is still that when teams turn up to play with a ten man defence we have no answer as our attackers are for the most part slightly below the required standard or too old/young to he considered in their prime
The problem we have is still that when teams turn up to play with a ten man defence we have no answer as our attackers are for the most part slightly below the required standard or too old/young to he considered in their prime
Jose Mourinho demonstrated in yesterday’s game why he is highly regarded as a tactical genius.
He picks a team that had many on this site basically questioning what the heck is going on. Apart from pre-match criticism of the players selected to play (Darmian, Young and Fellaini come to mind) he further ups the hysteria by leaving Ibrahimovic on the bench. I suppose in some ways decisions that can be rightfully questioned by supporters; however, why not wait – until we at least see Jose’s game plan.
By the end of the game the players largely singled out prior to kick off all had a great game as did the whole team. United beat Chelsea 2-0 and Jose’s team selection and tactics were spot on.
Hazard the man that makes Chelsea tick required special attention - so Jose man marks him with Herrera who incidentally nullifies Chelsea’s play maker so successfully that Hazard basically has little say in the game.
Jose’s tactical decision of playing Lingard and Rashford up front was strategically successful. The move allowed more pace and movement upfront, further enhanced by intricate passing as opposed to high crosses into the box.
As the OP says ‘Darmian playing infield and creating that extra man on the ball. Carrick coming on to nullify Fabregas’, great stuff by Jose.
Zlatan on the bench was all about tactics. It’s to do with that old turn of phrase - ‘horses for courses’. Ibra is a great player and will be back for the Thursday game.
Anyway a great display to end that 12 match winless run Chelsea had on us.
At the moment until mathematically impossible for us to get into top 4, I don’t want Spur’s to win the title. We don’t face them until our 3rd last game of the season. When/if it becomes mathematically impossible for us to finish top 4 then yeah I would like Spur’s to win the premiership. Until then I will settle for Spur’s beating Chelsea in the FA Cup Semi final – anything to upset that not so nice a guy ‘Costa’.
Sorry if a tad long
He picks a team that had many on this site basically questioning what the heck is going on. Apart from pre-match criticism of the players selected to play (Darmian, Young and Fellaini come to mind) he further ups the hysteria by leaving Ibrahimovic on the bench. I suppose in some ways decisions that can be rightfully questioned by supporters; however, why not wait – until we at least see Jose’s game plan.
By the end of the game the players largely singled out prior to kick off all had a great game as did the whole team. United beat Chelsea 2-0 and Jose’s team selection and tactics were spot on.
Hazard the man that makes Chelsea tick required special attention - so Jose man marks him with Herrera who incidentally nullifies Chelsea’s play maker so successfully that Hazard basically has little say in the game.
Jose’s tactical decision of playing Lingard and Rashford up front was strategically successful. The move allowed more pace and movement upfront, further enhanced by intricate passing as opposed to high crosses into the box.
As the OP says ‘Darmian playing infield and creating that extra man on the ball. Carrick coming on to nullify Fabregas’, great stuff by Jose.
Zlatan on the bench was all about tactics. It’s to do with that old turn of phrase - ‘horses for courses’. Ibra is a great player and will be back for the Thursday game.
Anyway a great display to end that 12 match winless run Chelsea had on us.
At the moment until mathematically impossible for us to get into top 4, I don’t want Spur’s to win the title. We don’t face them until our 3rd last game of the season. When/if it becomes mathematically impossible for us to finish top 4 then yeah I would like Spur’s to win the premiership. Until then I will settle for Spur’s beating Chelsea in the FA Cup Semi final – anything to upset that not so nice a guy ‘Costa’.
Sorry if a tad long
I personally think he was saying that to protect the players. I think he probably planned the personnel usage for the Europa and this game way in advance. But of cos we will never know for sure.
Yup. I would love to see a video of all his I involvement in the game. Lost count of how many times he won the ball
He was brilliant. I thought he was even better than Pogba yesterday.
Liverpool and Arsenal are nosy near winning it so it's not something I'm worried about.
My point is the insufferable spuds fans in here are unbearable even when the last one the league when no one had a TV and in black and white, think how much worse they would be now lol
From Michael Cox in Guardian
José Mourinho’s Manchester United are not the first side to defeat Antonio Conte’s Chelsea, and not even the first side to defeat Conte’s Chelsea since their season-changing switch to 3-4-3 back in October.
But no other side has nullified Chelsea’s attacking threats so effectively – this was the first time for a decade that Chelsea did not have a shot on target in a Premier League match. Suddenly, the title race is back on, and Chelsea’s upcoming opponents have a tactical template to follow.
Mourinho’s primary strategy was simple: man-marking Eden Hazard, Chelsea’s dangerman and the player he fell out with so spectacularly last season. This should not have come as a surprise, considering Mourinho used this approach in the recent 1-0 FA Cup quarter-final defeat at Stamford Bridge, when Phil Jones was deployed in that role, but Ander Herrera was dismissed for fouling Hazard when the Belgian drifted into his zone. Herrera was given that responsibility here, and played the role to perfection. Only one player in the Premier League, Middlesbrough’s speedy winger Adama Traoré, has dribbled past opponents more frequently than Hazard this season, and yet at Old Trafford he did not attempt a single dribble. He was starved of possession, starved of space and Herrera deserves great credit for his diligence.
It was peculiar, however, that Hazard and Chelsea did not have an obvious plan for combating this man-marking approach, considering Mourinho had showcased these tactics in that FA Cup meeting. Indeed, while Mourinho complained that Herrera’s dismissal was the turning point in that match, with some justification, Chelsea had grown into the contest before his red card, precisely because Hazard and Willian drifted around, swapped positions, and confused United’s man-marking.
Here, Hazard did not show enough tactical intelligence to drag Herrera into uncomfortable positions, and Chelsea’s attacking play suffered badly. Conte’s decision to switch wing-backs César Azpilicueta and Victor Moses after half an hour, putting the latter to the left, was seemingly to provide more attacking intent down that flank and allow Hazard to drift around.
Herrera’s man-marking role meant he played little part in Manchester United’s attacking play, so it was unfitting that he played the crucial pass for their opener. He intercepted a pass intended for Hazard – with an outstretched arm – before curling a wonderful ball in behind the Chelsea defence for Marcus Rashford to sprint onto, and beat the advancing Asmir Begovic.
This justified Mourinho’s decision to start Rashford ahead of Ibrahimovic – in the FA Cup game, with the Swede suspended, Rashford had worked the channels effectively and outwitted David Luiz, but missed his one key chance. This time he played similarly, had more support with Jesse Lingard pushed forward into a second striker role, and underlined his potential to become an exceptional all-round striker. At the start of the second half, Herrera’s deflected shot extended United’s lead.
After the second goal Conte changed things, introducing Cesc Fàbregas for Moses, and asking the Spaniard to play at the top of midfield. This briefly caused United confusion, as Fàbregas was playing in Herrera’s natural zone, and he suddenly looked worried about the threat of stopping both Hazard and Fàbregas. Five minutes later, however, Mourinho introduced Michael Carrick for Lingard, moving from 4-4-1-1 to 4-1-4-1, and Carrick focused on nullifying Fàbregas. At times this was a total man-marking exhibition, with Mourinho seen frantically shouting at left-back Matteo Darmian to stick tightly to Willian, another substitute, in the closing stages. Such strict man-marking is relatively rare in the modern game, but Sir Alex Ferguson used Jones in that role against key dangermen – Gareth Bale, Marouane Fellaini, Cristiano Ronaldo – in his final season, and Louis van Gaal’s midfield pressing strategy often involved nothing more than three man-marking jobs. United, more than most sides, are accustomed to that approach, although it is doubtful whether it is a viable long-term strategy.
The more pressing question, however, is how Chelsea will respond to this defeat. This match underlined their reliance upon Hazard for attacking inspiration, with Diego Costa seemingly focusing upon his squabble with Marcos Rojo, Pedro also subject to tight marking, and little creativity from midfield before the introduction of Fàbregas. Conte can point to the absences of goalkeeper Thibaut Courtois and left-wing-back [Irrelevant point] to explain his side’s sluggishness, but title winners should be capable of coping without two first-choice players. Their run-in is relatively simple, but Hazard can expect more problems with man-marking after the success of Mourinho’s approach here. Conte, so revered for his tactical intelligence this season, must find a solution.
The reports of 6 defenders were not entirely wrong. Herrera and Young were kind of wingbacks in a way but somehow it didn't stifle our attacking play
Thinking further about this today, people talk about confidence and it's usually in the context of "feels good playing" or "not afraid to try something" or a combination of both.
I think this game will breed confidence in Mourinho's tactics. There's bound to be conflicting thoughts in the players head when they're given instructions. What they think is the best option vs what Mourinho has told them to do.
I think this game will give them the confidence to follow his instructions to the word. Dot the I's and cross the T's because they will believe that it will bring the right results.
That's exactly the confidence that was missing under Van Gaal. They just didn't believe in what he was telling them to do.
I think this game will breed confidence in Mourinho's tactics. There's bound to be conflicting thoughts in the players head when they're given instructions. What they think is the best option vs what Mourinho has told them to do.
I think this game will give them the confidence to follow his instructions to the word. Dot the I's and cross the T's because they will believe that it will bring the right results.
That's exactly the confidence that was missing under Van Gaal. They just didn't believe in what he was telling them to do.
That's cool and all but a bit small team mentality to think we need to be a team that defends like that when it would be more United like if we imposed our will upon people which is what Jose has struggled with.
We imposed our will on Chelsea yesterday.
Not really, more like we reacted and let them take the game to use and then we took adavantage of a couple of mistakes.
It was a good performance but it was more akin to a small team coming to OT and hoping to get something whilst defending. It's for me why Jose will never be the right man for United as he is a defensive manager with an inferiority complex.
We neutered their attacking threat and got at them on the counter. That was a dominating performance. You can dominate a team by taking away what they want to do and we did as evidenced by their zero shots on target over 90 minutes.
If it wasn't our usual poor finishing it could've as well ended 4-0.
But yeah, carry on.
Finally no chicken shit bullshit,even subs were bit on edge but defending with purpose is what i wanted to see and not some coward mode.
For those of you that think that a team in the modern era can simply go out and "impose it's will" on the opposition...you need to understand that football has changed - especially in the Premier Leagues for good. Every team carries some kind of threat. Players need to be able to adapt tactically and the very best managers/coaches that work at the top level of team sports understand that why need to be flexible and therefore need players who can adapt.
Having said that there are going to be some underlying principles - lets call them non-negotiable - that all great managers have as their foundation for success. For the truly world class managers they understand it is not based upon a "tactical structure" or a preferred way to play....but core values...and they "special ones" are able to sell, communicate and enthuse their squads to buy into this approach no matter what the situation.
Mourinho I think is one such manager. He has obviously set out his stall around "attitude and effort" and will not bend around this. No matter how talented a player is and no matter what we all think from the outside I think that he is not going to compromise and from my point of view this is exactly how it should be for Utd.
Mourinho is here because he wants to take us to the top......to be the very best in the World. We cannot accept any player who does not want to give his utmost in training ever day, off the pitch in his preparation, his physical fitness levels, his desire to succeed and compete........I have absolute faith that he will either take us their or be fired because he is to backed at some stage when it comes to a high profile player/agent v manager situation.
There are vast differences between Fergie and Mou...but in the key areas they are absolutely identical. A no compromise approach to excellence, a connection with the stands, an unflinching 24 hours a day commitment to being the best and a total belief in their abilities.
Fergie helped us win games and trophies we had no right to win...yesterday's reaction to the initial selection and the abuse generated just showed me that we have a manager with big balls and who is on track to changing the culture back to accepting nothing but the very best.
So what will Joses tactics be to get 3 points at the Emptyhad?
Astonished anyone is still capable of criticizing Jose's tactics in such a game. I must admire your determination of hating the man that you can't even give him any credit when he made a good game.
The next bad result you'll slaughter him as usual. Love your consistency.
I have nothing against Jose. Why can't someone give an opinion against the populas without being labelled as hating Jose.
Some of us were brought up with certain values and a certain type of football and Jose embodies nothing of that but that doesn't mean we hate him. Some people need to really get over themselves.
His tactic to man mark Edan Hazard and Pedro is hardly revolutionary. We let them take the game to us and we nullified the threat with a pretty basic game plan. It was a good result but let's get things straight it was more the intensity and graft that got us that result. Nothing revolutionary happened.
I pointed out it's basically what smaller teams try to do against us. I.e. We went in with a small team mentality. There isn't anything technically wrong with that but it's not something that even if we win a champions league off of tactics like that, that will endear us to the masses or inspire that we are something more like united teams of the past.
Hence why Jose will never be the right man for united.
This isn't the 1900's, we can't go out and dominate every team we come up against. Not even SAF would go out and play gung-ho every match, do I need to remind you about our counter-attacking, defensive approach against Jose's Madrid in the CL?
We were hardly playing defensive, we took the game to them before Carrick came on, could have won 3 or 4-0. Man marking is never something Jose has been known for, he's a huge advocate of zonal marking, so yes, it is revolutionary, because he specifically adapted his tactics to nullify all their attacking threats.
Thinking Counter-attacking is a small team mentality is laughable, considering Chelsea themselves have basically adopted a similar system all season, Atleti are one of the biggest teams in the world and are the best in the world at it, Real are prone to adopting such tactics. We didn't have 11 players camped in the box like the smaller teams do against us, we closed down all their outlets, suffocated the middle of the pitch and cut off service to the wings with Darmian, Valencia and Young. If his tactics were so easy, it really is questionable why none of the other top teams haven't implemented similar tactics, I'm sure Pep is sitting at home so happy he was able to play attacking football against Chelsea, even though he managed to lose only 2 games or so ago. We were closing down their centre-backs to prevent them from releasing the ball. Didn't realise a high press and closing down was "what other teams did to us', if smaller teams had opted to play that style against us, we'd be a lot better off for points, that's for sure. As it's a risky style, as players can lose their man with a lack of focus and leave huge space for them to operate in.
United of the past is gone, we are building a new squad with a new identity under a new manager, there isn't a single team on this planet who will play high-flying attacking football every match, that's what managers are paid for, to alter tactics to suit specific opposition. Funny thing is had Jose gone gung-ho and United gotten embarrassed, you'd probably be on here slating him for that.
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@Andersons Dietician don't you think you're going a bit OTT? Fergie wasn't above being pragmatic if the occasion called for it. Back when Arsenal was a threat to United winning the title we were happy to get physical with them, get the Nevilles taking turns on Reyes etc. Sir Alex wasn't against sending Park to man mark Pirlo or have Phil Jones following Cristiano Ronaldo around. If Jose went against United's traditions yesterday, what do you call 27% possession at the Camp Nou in 2008...?
Yesterday was the first time in nearly 10 years, since we last did it, that anyone had stopped Chelsea having a shot on goal. Mourinho and Man Utd's players deserve credit for that. Let's not make out that we just sat back and absorbed pressure for 90 minutes either. The more gung-ho they went, bringing on Cesc, Willian and Loftus-Cheek, the more we looked to play on the counter. However, for the first hour of the game we were the team who looked best both with and without the ball. We were the team dominating possession and we were the team who looked most like scoring. Had Ashley Young been able to keep his shots down we might have been 2-0 up before half time.
Intensity and graft got us the result? Isn't that in the best traditions of the city of Manchester itself? Its red bricks, its industrial history. Man Utd has always been about steel as well as silk, and there was a fair bit of silk in Herrera's through ball for Rashford. I think saying we played with a small time mentality is strange. We did what we needed to do to get the result we needed. If that's betraying our traditions then I can point to a whole host of matches in title winning seasons under Sir Alex when we betrayed our traditions. I'll respectfully disagree with your conclusion about what yesterday's game means about Mou being right for Man Utd.
Yesterday was the first time in nearly 10 years, since we last did it, that anyone had stopped Chelsea having a shot on goal. Mourinho and Man Utd's players deserve credit for that. Let's not make out that we just sat back and absorbed pressure for 90 minutes either. The more gung-ho they went, bringing on Cesc, Willian and Loftus-Cheek, the more we looked to play on the counter. However, for the first hour of the game we were the team who looked best both with and without the ball. We were the team dominating possession and we were the team who looked most like scoring. Had Ashley Young been able to keep his shots down we might have been 2-0 up before half time.
Intensity and graft got us the result? Isn't that in the best traditions of the city of Manchester itself? Its red bricks, its industrial history. Man Utd has always been about steel as well as silk, and there was a fair bit of silk in Herrera's through ball for Rashford. I think saying we played with a small time mentality is strange. We did what we needed to do to get the result we needed. If that's betraying our traditions then I can point to a whole host of matches in title winning seasons under Sir Alex when we betrayed our traditions. I'll respectfully disagree with your conclusion about what yesterday's game means about Mou being right for Man Utd.
We're not good enough to go out and just outplay other top teams and let them worry about how to deal with us. The result and performance just puts to bed any doubt that Mourinho still has the ability to out think other top managers and that our squad is willing to fight for him. Add a few more top class players and we'll see how we do.
Besides, there were so many similar performances from Fergies teams who would win on the counter. It was a throwback to the good times under Fergie.
So many would have you think that they'd enjoy a forum like this if everyone agreed or watched games the same way.
This game actually reminds me somehow of CL semi-final against Barca when we won by Scholes goal. We scored the goal and shut down the game completely on them they weren't able to create or do anything despite only needing one goal to pass. SAF at this time outsmarted Rijkaard and controlled the tempo of the game from start to finish . The game against Madrid in 2013 was very similar to this ,too till the red card . This is not a defensive approach like small teams by any means. This is a tactical approach.
Some people here when talks about Jose makes me think I have never watched the team under SAF . They thought we were attacking aimlessly in any game no matter what. That's not true.
Pep attacked Chelsea in both games this season and created thousands of chances and got humiliated by Conte in both games. Were the people here be pleases with us creating chances and attacking them only despite losing ??
Some people here when talks about Jose makes me think I have never watched the team under SAF . They thought we were attacking aimlessly in any game no matter what. That's not true.
Pep attacked Chelsea in both games this season and created thousands of chances and got humiliated by Conte in both games. Were the people here be pleases with us creating chances and attacking them only despite losing ??