That would be because of the curious fact that the forum consists of a number of different people.*When Jose plays attacking football and creates thousands of chances and players miss them: He's hammered because of the result and hold the blame for these chances.
*When Jose plays a tactical game and get a win : He's hammered because he plays like small teams.
The guy will get hammered by some people here no matter what.
I clearly said some people in my post.That would be because of the curious fact that the forum consists of a number of different people.
Remember how a certain manager played with 10 men behind the ball against Inter Milan in 1999? We hardly passed the midfield line in the second leg... Do you remember how we played against Barcelona in 2008? We parked the buss big time? Do you remember how we utilised Ronaldo as a center forward so that we could play only on counter attack in the Champions League in 2009? Do you remember how Fergie used to park the bus in most of the important games post 2010? Do you remember a certain Ryan Giggs playing as a right midfielder and man marking Ronaldo and how we played with 10 people behind the ball against Madrid? I can go on and on and on but there is no point. In your opinion the greatest manager of all time went in with a small team mentality in a great number of games during the last 20 years....The bottom line is that maybe after 2001-2003 a team should be able to shut the opponent in order to win a certain game. If you watch a match from the early 90s for example you would be perplexed. The teams were playing as if there was no midfield, only back and forth...The thing you are saying about a game against Chelsea is pathetic. Tactics is almost everything in football nowadays if you are not Barca or Real. Credit to Jose and I am delighted for him. I am certain now that he has never lost it and it is only a matter of time before he leads us to glory...I have nothing against Jose. Why can't someone give an opinion against the populas without being labelled as hating Jose.
Some of us were brought up with certain values and a certain type of football and Jose embodies nothing of that but that doesn't mean we hate him. Some people need to really get over themselves.
His tactic to man mark Edan Hazard and Pedro is hardly revolutionary. We let them take the game to us and we nullified the threat with a pretty basic game plan. It was a good result but let's get things straight it was more the intensity and graft that got us that result. Nothing revolutionary happened.
I pointed out it's basically what smaller teams try to do against us. I.e. We went in with a small team mentality. There isn't anything technically wrong with that but it's not something that even if we win a champions league off of tactics like that, that will endear us to the masses or inspire that we are something more like united teams of the past.
Hence why Jose will never be the right man for united.
Woah, very well said.@Andersons Dietician don't you think you're going a bit OTT? Fergie wasn't above being pragmatic if the occasion called for it. Back when Arsenal was a threat to United winning the title we were happy to get physical with them, get the Nevilles taking turns on Reyes etc. Sir Alex wasn't against sending Park to man mark Pirlo or have Phil Jones following Cristiano Ronaldo around. If Jose went against United's traditions yesterday, what do you call 27% possession at the Camp Nou in 2008...?
Yesterday was the first time in nearly 10 years, since we last did it, that anyone had stopped Chelsea having a shot on goal. Mourinho and Man Utd's players deserve credit for that. Let's not make out that we just sat back and absorbed pressure for 90 minutes either. The more gung-ho they went, bringing on Cesc, Willian and Loftus-Cheek, the more we looked to play on the counter. However, for the first hour of the game we were the team who looked best both with and without the ball. We were the team dominating possession and we were the team who looked most like scoring. Had Ashley Young been able to keep his shots down we might have been 2-0 up before half time.
Intensity and graft got us the result? Isn't that in the best traditions of the city of Manchester itself? Its red bricks, its industrial history. Man Utd has always been about steel as well as silk, and there was a fair bit of silk in Herrera's through ball for Rashford. I think saying we played with a small time mentality is strange. We did what we needed to do to get the result we needed. If that's betraying our traditions then I can point to a whole host of matches in title winning seasons under Sir Alex when we betrayed our traditions. I'll respectfully disagree with your conclusion about what yesterday's game means about Mou being right for Man Utd.
Yeah reminded me of that Barca game too. Ronnie was asked to play up top as the lone striker and he was constantly chasing down their cb.This game actually reminds me somehow of CL semi-final against Barca when we won by Scholes goal. We scored the goal and shut down the game completely on them they weren't able to create or do anything despite only needing one goal to pass. SAF at this time outsmarted Rijkaard and controlled the tempo of the game from start to finish . The game against Madrid in 2013 was very similar to this ,too till the red card . This is not a defensive approach like small teams by any means. This is a tactical approach.
Some people here when talks about Jose makes me think I have never watched the team under SAF . They thought we were attacking aimlessly in any game no matter what. That's not true.
Pep attacked Chelsea in both games this season and created thousands of chances and got humiliated by Conte in both games. Were the people here be pleases with us creating chances and attacking them only despite losing ??
Yeah some people here seem to have a very short memory.Yeah reminded me of that Barca game too. Ronnie was asked to play up top as the lone striker and he was constantly chasing down their cb.
they took the game to us? really? 0 shots on goal. this isn't like West Brom against us clearly playing for a draw.I have nothing against Jose. Why can't someone give an opinion against the populas without being labelled as hating Jose.
Some of us were brought up with certain values and a certain type of football and Jose embodies nothing of that but that doesn't mean we hate him. Some people need to really get over themselves.
His tactic to man mark Edan Hazard and Pedro is hardly revolutionary. We let them take the game to us and we nullified the threat with a pretty basic game plan. It was a good result but let's get things straight it was more the intensity and graft that got us that result. Nothing revolutionary happened.
I pointed out it's basically what smaller teams try to do against us. I.e. We went in with a small team mentality. There isn't anything technically wrong with that but it's not something that even if we win a champions league off of tactics like that, that will endear us to the masses or inspire that we are something more like united teams of the past.
Hence why Jose will never be the right man for united.
That's cool and all but a bit small team mentality to think we need to be a team that defends like that when it would be more United like if we imposed our will upon people which is what Jose has struggled with.
Not really, more like we reacted and let them take the game to use and then we took adavantage of a couple of mistakes.
It was a good performance but it was more akin to a small team coming to OT and hoping to get something whilst defending. It's for me why Jose will never be the right man for United as he is a defensive manager with an inferiority complex.
Interesting watch but a bit too Chelsea-orientated.
Serious question: Do you think that having more possession is almost always a sign that a team is in total control of a football match?Not really, more like we reacted and let them take the game to use and then we took adavantage of a couple of mistakes.
It was a good performance but it was more akin to a small team coming to OT and hoping to get something whilst defending. It's for me why Jose will never be the right man for United as he is a defensive manager with an inferiority complex.
Even the possession was 53%-47% in their favour over the 90mins unless I'm mistaken. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good old moan.Serious question: Do you think that having more possession is almost always a sign that a team is in total control of a football match?
You do know that once a team takes an early lead, the other team naturally attacks more and hence has more of the ball. We had more possession than Chelsea atleast till the 60 min mark. Only in the last 15 min, we sat back a bit and defended. And 47-53 is basically level.Not really, more like we reacted and let them take the game to use and then we took adavantage of a couple of mistakes.
It was a good performance but it was more akin to a small team coming to OT and hoping to get something whilst defending. It's for me why Jose will never be the right man for United as he is a defensive manager with an inferiority complex.
Good post and I agree with you. However, despite our massive spending and wage bill, we are a "smaller team" in terms of talent. Our most talented players are either sidelined (Martial, Shaw), in the growth stage (Rashford, Pogba, Bailly) or are in decline (Carrick, Rooney). We have only three talents (Herrera, De Gea and Valencia) who are at their peak. You cannot play front foot football against the best teams with the likes of Young, Rojo, Fellaini, Lingard etc. You have to find ways to neutralize the opposition.I have nothing against Jose. Why can't someone give an opinion against the populas without being labelled as hating Jose.
Some of us were brought up with certain values and a certain type of football and Jose embodies nothing of that but that doesn't mean we hate him. Some people need to really get over themselves.
His tactic to man mark Edan Hazard and Pedro is hardly revolutionary. We let them take the game to us and we nullified the threat with a pretty basic game plan. It was a good result but let's get things straight it was more the intensity and graft that got us that result. Nothing revolutionary happened.
I pointed out it's basically what smaller teams try to do against us. I.e. We went in with a small team mentality. There isn't anything technically wrong with that but it's not something that even if we win a champions league off of tactics like that, that will endear us to the masses or inspire that we are something more like united teams of the past.
Hence why Jose will never be the right man for united.
It will only work against the big teams who don't sit back when they play us. Against the lesser teams who park the bus, it won't work.Just a wishful thought: It'd be cool if this was the new trademark playing style for Manchester United. Barcelona has their tiki-taka, Chelsea's park the buss, Dortmund's high pressing and imagine; Manchester United's man marking.
However, I highly doubt this strategy will be used for the long-term, but it was beautiful to witness such tactical masterclass and worked perfectly against the league leaders. Chelsea lost the ball at every opportunity, especially in the first half, they literally didn't stand a chance. This strategy seem to demand high-stamina so it might be damaging in the long-term, and might only be effective against Chelsea. But goddamn it was enjoyable to watch that game and to crush Chelsea after what they did to us earlier in the season.
I definitely wouldn't mind if we played this way all the time, if it's effective against other teams and damaging in the long-term is something to consider.
I'm missing your point here.Even the possession was 53%-47% in their favour over the 90mins unless I'm mistaken. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good old moan.
United were by far the better team, end of. If you manage to keep the best team in the League away from your goal and they cant create a single chance, are constantly on the backfoot, cant build up their game from the back, then you are dominating them.I can't believe what I'm reading here!
Anybody saying negative things about how we played against Chelsea MUST be a scouce or a City fan in disguise.
We outplayed Chelsea, plain and simple.
I beg to differ. Rojo has been amazing this season; Young, Fellaini and Lingard have chipped in well when called and are good squad options to have. We, at United have always had a history of playing a viable mix of young and old - how is this different? We have a few amazing young talents (Martial, Rashford, Lingard, Pogba, Bailly) who arguably would not have had so much game time at any other major club (look at Renato); a handful of ageing starlets (Zlat, Carrick, Valencia) who are well, to be honest leading the charge at times all alone;Good post and I agree with you. However, despite our massive spending and wage bill, we are a "smaller team" in terms of talent. Our most talented players are either sidelined (Martial, Shaw), in the growth stage (Rashford, Pogba, Bailly) or are in decline (Carrick, Rooney). We have only three talents (Herrera, De Gea and Valencia) who are at their peak. You cannot play front foot football against the best teams with the likes of Young, Rojo, Fellaini, Lingard etc. You have to find ways to neutralize the opposition.
As for Jose being the right man, if he can stop our free fall, then it would be a job well done. But I can definitely understand where you are coming from. Him and his football in general are hard to bear.
I'm saying even the possession stats are similar so it's not even the case of them dominating the ball and us chasing shadows all game.I'm missing your point here.
You do have a problem with Jose even if you don't want to admit it. It's quite obvious really.I can't be bothered quoting everyone that replied. But it's clear that quite a few have misunderstood my point.
One guy keeps going on about how we can't dominate every game now. That is very true but playing in a defensive manner like we did or have done all season not letting the full backs get to the line, playing it safe with Zlatan and just trying to hit him with a cross from a non threatening area as you're too scared to commit your fullbacks is a problem and is defensive and not what United is about.
There is nothing wrong with counter attacking football but even then we do that defensively, people comparing this season to games of SAF are missing the point that Jose doesn't commit as many people forward as SAF did on a counter attack. That is the difference. Watch our fullbacks or even wide players. Martial against Anderlecht was more concerned with keeping an eye on his fullback. That is the problem and why Jose won't be a success for me ever.
Also the amount of games we have shut up shop against teams we were dominating and it has cost us has been amazing. Even when we've been on top of teams we've still been poor non adventurous and just rather average.people who think we took the game to Chelsea yesterday ok that is your opinion and not one I share.
Also yes graft and intensity got us the result nothing wrong with that for the guy that made out like I have a problem with that.
I get sometimes I maybe don't put my thoughts across well but I felt like they were quite simple this time and people with the "oh he said something bad about Jose mentality, let's attack" should maybe read and think before posting anything.
Also the revisionism of some of this season is quite astonishing.
I guess my problem would be the defensive nature of his football and lack of commitment. However I don't have an issue with Jose. He's entertaining upon occasion.You do have a problem with Jose even if you don't want to admit it. It's quite obvious really.
Saying this without an evidence is illogical , explain to us how many players both managers put on the counter-attack first , is there an attacking option in our current team that doesn't rush forward when we're counter attacking ? The idea of having low number of attacking players in the counter attack or even in the box is starting to become a myth from those who got problems with Jose . We're talking about one of the best managers that applied counter attacking system in the current generation and questioning how many players he's letting to rush forward in counters ?? He definitely knows how many players needed for a counter to succeed. Still want an explanation for how many players SAF let to rush forward in his counters comparing to Jose.I can't be bothered quoting everyone that replied. But it's clear that quite a few have misunderstood my point.
One guy keeps going on about how we can't dominate every game now. That is very true but playing in a defensive manner like we did or have done all season not letting the full backs get to the line, playing it safe with Zlatan and just trying to hit him with a cross from a non threatening area as you're too scared to commit your fullbacks is a problem and is defensive and not what United is about.
There is nothing wrong with counter attacking football but even then we do that defensively, people comparing this season to games of SAF are missing the point that Jose doesn't commit as many people forward as SAF did on a counter attack. That is the difference. Watch our fullbacks or even wide players. Martial against Anderlecht was more concerned with keeping an eye on his fullback. That is the problem and why Jose won't be a success for me ever.
Also the amount of games we have shut up shop against teams we were dominating and it has cost us has been amazing. Even when we've been on top of teams we've still been poor non adventurous and just rather average.people who think we took the game to Chelsea yesterday ok that is your opinion and not one I share.
Also yes graft and intensity got us the result nothing wrong with that for the guy that made out like I have a problem with that.
I get sometimes I maybe don't put my thoughts across well but I felt like they were quite simple this time and people with the "oh he said something bad about Jose mentality, let's attack" should maybe read and think before posting anything.
Also the revisionism of some of this season is quite astonishing.
Watch a game, the evidence is there.Saying this without an evidence is illogical , explain to us how many players both managers put on the counter-attack first , is there an attacking option in our current team that doesn't rush forward when we're counter attacking ? The idea of having low number of attacking players in the counter attack or even in the box is starting to become a myth from those who got problems with Jose . We're talking about one of the best managers that applied counter attacking system in the current generation and questioning how many players he's letting to rush forward in counters ?? He definitely knows how many players needed for a counter to succeed. Still want an explanation for how many players SAF let to rush forward in his counters comparing to Jose.
The other point about Martial being busy with their full back is nonsense. That's a new level of giving excuses to the kid and hammering his manager instead. Martial gets thousand of chances to beat his man in attacking position and lost the ball every time, how did the manager restrict him to defensive side?? Martial killed thousands of promising attacks and counters.
As the guy before me said , you clearly had problem with Jose , no need to deny it. We aren't asking you to fall in love with him . Just give the guy the credit when he deserves it . You are letting your hatred to the man driving you to find anything in a perfect tactical game just for the sake to criticize him.
I watched the game and didn't see any evidence.Watch a game, the evidence is there.
Also why does it just have to be in a counter attack? Watch the positions of Valencia. Actually rewatch the WBA game as it's the most obvious game of Valencia positioning instructions. Then watch or just think back to a team under SAF and then you'll hopefully see the difference.
Also if you can't see why Martial and Mkhitaryan always get the ball to feet and have to beat a man and not inbehind is also down to they aren't allowed to risk the superior defensive position then I suggest you watch a bit more at length from an analytical view instead of just as a fan.
Also there was a great post from a Chelsea supporter on here and he seemed to voice most of the same ideas, so do most Chelsea fans and Madrid fans it was also a main stay in his Inter team. It's probably also at the heart of his problem with Shaw.
It's not a myth either watch the commitment of players to their positions. Also we've hardly been a counter attacking team at all because we've had Zlatan up top which doesn't allow it.
I never said counter attack. In general Jose won't commit players forward it's obvious if you just watch a game on the positional and defensive limitations placed upon our players.I watched the game and didn't see any evidence.
Valencia has been rushing forward in all our attacks this season , strange to take him as en example while he's a key player in our offense and when he doesn't play our attack takes a full hit so how is he restricted seriously??. If you mean him returning the ball back after rushing that has nothing to do with the manager, it's because Valencia at these conditions doesn't trust himself to make an accurate cross and instead of wasting a potential good attack he tries to build the play with players surrounding him , when he's in a good position to cross the ball he does it. Strange example. See any game with and without Valencia and see how the right flank becomes dead without him on the pitch.
I don't understand how Mikhi and Martial beating their man is related to defensive tasks. There's a big contradictions here , if Jose wants to play it safe why he'll let them risk the play by trying to beat their man and risk losing the ball? Why don't he tell them to play it safe and pass it back ?? What if Martial is the one lacking in moving behind players because his off ball movement is a joke ?? Don't you watch Rashford move behind the defenders normally because his off ball movement is much better ?? Just give me one example of both of them restricted to defense and not attacking in any game to justify your opinion. You are making many assumptions without any critical proof.
I won't listen to a Chelsea fan who hates the manager sacked by them last year definitely. Why do I have to listen to another one and ignore what I'm seeing ?? And regarding Madrid , they were the best counter attacking team in the world with him in charge. See this tactical video :
Finally if we aren't a counter attacking team from the root so what's the point of you saying we don't have many player in counter attack??
Ha ??? What was this then ?I never said counter attack. In general Jose won't commit players forward it's obvious if you just watch a game on the positional and defensive limitations placed upon our players.
You said he doesn't commit many players on the counter and that why I replied from the start.There is nothing wrong with counter attacking football but even then we do that defensively, people comparing this season to games of SAF are missing the point that Jose doesn't commit as many people forward as SAF did on a counter attack.
You keep telling me to watch games and not backing your posts with a critical proof and that's my problem with your post. Instead of telling me to watch games, pack your posts with proofs that Jose commits less players while attacking than SAF. Tell me how many players were attacking under SAF and how under Jose so I can discuss it with you , not saying this like a fact and that's it : I had to accept it or not.In general Jose won't commit players forward it's obvious if you just watch a game on the positional and defensive limitations placed upon our players.
It's about positioning fella and commitment to attacks. It's not something Jose likes he is reserved in the commitment of his players just because he is worried that if a move breaks down we leave ourselves exposed where in SAF and other managers will allow more freedom to go forward and commit to an attack. Now with that in mind watch Martial vs Anderlecht then watch WBA and Valencia then think back on the season and you'll see what I'm saying is true.
So a right man for United would not be pragmatic and approach every game with "We are obviously going to school them" approach. Nice!!I have nothing against Jose. Why can't someone give an opinion against the populas without being labelled as hating Jose.
Some of us were brought up with certain values and a certain type of football and Jose embodies nothing of that but that doesn't mean we hate him. Some people need to really get over themselves.
His tactic to man mark Edan Hazard and Pedro is hardly revolutionary. We let them take the game to us and we nullified the threat with a pretty basic game plan. It was a good result but let's get things straight it was more the intensity and graft that got us that result. Nothing revolutionary happened.
I pointed out it's basically what smaller teams try to do against us. I.e. We went in with a small team mentality. There isn't anything technically wrong with that but it's not something that even if we win a champions league off of tactics like that, that will endear us to the masses or inspire that we are something more like united teams of the past.
Hence why Jose will never be the right man for united.
Reminds me of Wenger.So a right man for United would not be pragmatic and approach every game with "We are obviously going to school them" approach. Nice!!
I wonder if you used to get absolutely pissed off when SAF went pragmatic and played the game depending on the opposition.
Good read that, given Jose is a huge advocate for zonal marking it was impressive to see him adapt to a man-marking system and make it work so well.Away from that , very interesting article about the 2-2-4-2 Jose executed to counter Conte's formation:
http://www.squawka.com/news/jose-mourinhos-2-2-4-2-explained/934911#4Dejk6FC24b2HBZb.97
What small team has come to OT, stopped us from having a shot on target, stopped us having a single chance, dominated the ball for the first 60 mins and won 2-0?Not really, more like we reacted and let them take the game to use and then we took adavantage of a couple of mistakes.
It was a good performance but it was more akin to a small team coming to OT and hoping to get something whilst defending. It's for me why Jose will never be the right man for United as he is a defensive manager with an inferiority complex.
Glad you stopped, it was getting tedious. I am actually in support of a manager who chivvies his own to do whatever is necessary to win; SAF did. There are a few who would want us adhering to a set tactic or style for some reason I can't possibly fathom, It''s not in our USP to do so. SAF never played a particular style, obviously one can argue about longevity playing a big role in that but nonetheless winning above everything else is priority. There are others who do want to reach the pinnacle of 'the beautiful game' as they see in their heads a la Klopp, Pep, Wenger (pre 08-09) and that is all good and great but Mou was never that. He wants to win at any cost using any tactic possible - I wonder what people would have said here if he had us playing like Inter in their CL winning run (Barca away); would the same lot then glorify him if he then made us Champions of Europe? I hope he stays here, we finally have a coach who understands that Manchester United above everything else is about winning (and some youth thrown in there).Away from that , very interesting article about the 2-2-4-2 Jose executed to counter Conte's formation:
http://www.squawka.com/news/jose-mourinhos-2-2-4-2-explained/934911#4Dejk6FC24b2HBZb.97
Jose was already at Chelsea so noHaven't posted in a while..... just think, David Moyes was the manager of Manchester United.... picked ahead of Jose.
*shades back into the shadows*
Yeah I have nothing else to say. Some people either have short memory or didn't watch SAF regularly at all.Glad you stopped, it was getting tedious. I am actually in support of a manager who chivvies his own to do whatever is necessary to win; SAF did. There are a few who would want us adhering to a set tactic or style for some reason I can't possibly fathom, It''s not in our USP to do so. SAF never played a particular style, obviously one can argue about longevity playing a big role in that but nonetheless winning above everything else is priority. There are others who do want to reach the pinnacle of 'the beautiful game' as they see in their heads a la Klopp, Pep, Wenger (pre 08-09) and that is all good and great but Mou was never that. He wants to win at any cost using any tactic possible - I wonder what people would have said here if he had us playing like Inter in their CL winning run (Barca away); would the same lot then glorify him if he then made us Champions of Europe? I hope he stays here, we finally have a coach who understands that Manchester United above everything else is about winning (and some youth thrown in there).
