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Tammy Abraham - Roma Striker
- Thread starter BlueCelery
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Thread made by Chelsea fan on a football forum, you lost or something? Use ignore thread option and move along.
I said he'd do well.
I find it odd that the thread is full of praise for Chelsea as they have sold him though. I think it's quite sad he's not been given the opportunity as an English player developing at the club he obviously loves. It's nothing to be happy about him leaving.
You can go on about 'ruthlessness' and the Chelsea way of doing things but feck it I much prefer the United way.
I find it odd that the thread is full of praise for Chelsea as they have sold him though. I think it's quite sad he's not been given the opportunity as an English player developing at the club he obviously loves. It's nothing to be happy about him leaving.
You can go on about 'ruthlessness' and the Chelsea way of doing things but feck it I much prefer the United way.
We need to define what getting an opportunity means first, because he was the starting striker for months at a time under Lampard. His own form fell off a cliff at the start of 2020. Giroud being the starter for the remainder of that season is what secured CL football for us the following season. He started last season as a regular again but he was too inconsistent again, so Lampard dropped him again. He played 82 games over 2 seasons though.
Tuchel totally ignoring him was weird, and I don't think he deserved to be exiled like that, but Tammy is exactly where he needs to be, in my opinion, for his own life career. At a club that fully trusts him, and that can live with his inconsistencies and where the pressure isn't as high.
He's got 30 goals in 80 games. For a young player I feel that's pretty good going. Greenwood has now played 105 games for United and has 32 goals.
It takes patience with young players. They have dips in form, confidence and other external factors can come into play. I think you were very quick to give him the boot and I'm not surprised he lost his confidence as he can't have felt much support from within the club.
I can see the same happening with Gilmour, as it has with Tomori and even CHO who looks like he will be moving on.
After all the talk of a new era at Chelsea and developing the younger players there's only Mount left really who gets a look in. Find that pretty sad rather than great business personally.
I don't think it's true that Chelsea were too quick to give him the boot. He spent two seasons here, being a starter for roughly half that time. He was given plenty of chances. Lampard, at one point, was being criticised for ignoring Giroud when Tammy's form had disappeared. He kept playing for a while longer before Lampard couldn't really justify picking him. That's when he brought Giroud back in from the cold.
You critique fits well with CHO and Tomori for example. I think those guys weren't/haven't been given enough chances, like a proper, uninterrupted run in the team. Tomori did briefly while Rudiger was injured, but he rarely played once Rudiger was healthy. CHO hasn't ever been a regular starter, so when people criticise him for stagnating, that's not his fault.
Chelsea started, and have constantly started, Mount, Christensen and James under both Lampard and Tuchel, and Chalobah has featured in 3 of the first 4 games this season, so it's not really just Mount, to be fair.
Despite his productivity in front of goal, he doesn't do enough out of possession and his passing / buildup play is pretty poor - this is why Tuchel never favoured him:
It's also worth remembering that Greenwood is 4 full years younger - so his record is significantly more impressive. I would respectfully disagree that Tammy wasn't given sufficient opportunities over the past two seasons.
Also to be fair James and Christensen are regulars along with Mount in our first XI, and Chalobah seems to be on that trajectory as well. That's pretty reasonable representation from the academy in the first team I'd argue.
Looking at Tammy's figures they are better than Greenwood's. Do you not find that a bit concerning? Would Chelsea be playing Greenwood at the moment or would they have lost patience and moved him on?
I think as a club you are ruthless and that's fine. You very much run your academy like a business. You've brought in alot of money this summer but have actually let a number of talented young players leave the club. Not deadwood.
Maybe I'm just sentimental but it's a big part of United's DNA to give opportunities to young players and something I really love to see. I know other clubs do things differently but seeing that Instagram post from Tammy was really sad and I'm pretty sure most Chelsea fans would rather see him banging goals in instead of Werner. He could have learnt a fair bit from Lukaku too.
I'm not sure Lukaku gives that much with his passing and build up play does he? That's not me being an idiot but it's hardly his forte. Whilst we're at it we could mention Werner's flaws.
I'm pretty sure Tammy could have been developed. He bagged a few assists tonight for Roma!
Pretty significant gap to both - and this is without considering the space Lukaku and Werner create. Tammy's biggest problem for me is that he has generally been quite poor when dropping into midfield - his time at Roma notwithstanding when he's been excellent! If he can develop the way Lukaku has there he'll be well placed to have a bright future.
Sorry but one last point re: Greenwood that's just occurred to me - probably half his minutes have come as a right winger / right forward making his scoring record all the more impressive. And again, given the age gap between him and Tammy I don't think it's a reasonable comparison frankly - Greenwood is miles ahead.
3 of our academy players are every game starters.
Is there even one other PL team that can beat or even match that at this moment?
Is there even one other PL team that can beat or even match that at this moment?
The stats are quite interesting actually. Tammy is behind in the middle portion with regards to his passing and carrying the ball but does match the others with his goals/assists (top third) and betters both Lukaku and Werner in the arial/clearances/interceptions (bottom third).
Obviously it must have been thought the middle third couldn't be improved on and is quite important to Tuchel. That said seeing how good he is in other areas I'm not sure he's a worse option than Werner would be currently.
Mason Greenwood is 4 years younger than Tammy. Greenwood is 19 and Abraham is 23. Greenwood is a young player, Tammy isn't even a teenager.
Tammy is in. Martial and Rashford age bracket. Compare these 3.
Tammy is in. Martial and Rashford age bracket. Compare these 3.
Only Mount? You either don't watch Chelsea or don't know who is from our academy.
We started with 3 academy players yesterday and 1 more came off the bench.
James only played 45 minutes though to be fair
Yeah to be fair you have James and Christensen who is back in favour again now. It's the best it's been for you in that sense for quite some time.
Anyway the point is I think it's sad about Tammy. Surely most Chelsea fans would agree?
Biggest thing is that you could never play Tammy as an inside left forward the way Werner can be used - Tammy just doesn't have the pace to threaten in behind and his ability to progress the ball via passing or carrying is pretty shocking all things considered. Tammy has a general inclination to come short for the ball despite being terrible at it - he didn't make anywhere near enough runs in behind even as a decoy the way Werner did last season.
Also would say that the bottom third of those stats is comfortably the least important when it comes to strikers - and there are specific considerations with respect to role / team that are influential there. Tammy is genuinely great at defending near post corners; for me that's not a reason to pick him as a 9.
Yeah maybe Greenwood would be in and out of the team if he was at Chelsea, but to be fair Lampard really persisted with Mount through his struggles in the first season.
Put it this way, Lampard brought through 5 players initially - Mount, Abraham, Tomori, Gilmour and James. Christensen and CHO were already part of the first team and CHO was coming back from a really serious injury. Of those 7 players, 3 are outright starters to this day, one is on loan for his own good, 2 have been sold for huge fees and CHO is still on the fringes and now being linked with a loan move to Dortmund.
To have 3 regulars from the academy, 1 kind of a starter and 1 on the fringes is really good and I think expecting all the academy graduates to all be regular starters is a tad a unrealistic. It's always going to be sad to see these guys leave, but that's the nature of the game. They won't all make it at Chelsea.
United do have a better culture, going back decades, when it comes to fostering academy players, so perhaps we have differing views on what constitutes to being given ample opportunity and what doesn't because of the clubs we support.
I think it's a bit bittersweet - always will be happy for him and will wish him the best even if it's not at Chelsea, but the reality is he's been wasted on our bench. He needed playing time to get to the top level and I'm happy he's getting it - plus we have a buyback clause.
Does the bottom third not suggest he's better at pressing and closing down the ball though aka leading from the front?
It seems he does everything you need from a modern CF but needed more work on his passing/interplay.
Always sad when an academy player leaves, absolutely.
They can't all make it though. We've got more academy products in out first xi and bench (3 starting regularly plus at least 3 on the bench) than most teams who are looking to challenge.
It's a bit of a muddle - the top half of that bottom third is focused more on pressing stats but the bottom half has more to do with penalty box defending - and for strikers that's almost always down to set pieces. Werner looks abysmal there, for instance, because he's usually left up the pitch as a counter-attacking option. Lukaku looks poor for pressing stats because Conte has never pressed and likes his teams to sit back and counter.
Like all stats a bit of context is needed! That said, I'd say that from an interplay standpoint they back up the portrait they paint of Tammy in terms of buildup. And I do agree that this is a learnable trait - but I'd argue that almost more than anything this is dependent on playing time and as such his leaving is probably best for all parties. Don't think any amount of training could get him up to speed there - and Tuchel's reluctance to play him is reasonable evidence of that, I'd reckon.
I think Mount is brilliant (even if he disappeared at the Euros) and that's one pretty good thing that the Lampard era left you. Bit like LVG with Rashford in some ways.
You make fair points and I suppose I just feel a bit for Tammy given his record is pretty good and it seems Tuchel totally froze him out. You used to use Giroud from the bench and have now dropped £50m on Werner to take up that role. I can't help but feel Tammy could have contributed to the team in some way and that's probably why I feel he didn't get a chance under Tuchel for whatever reason.
Tomori is another one and CHO looks to be heading the same way after his initial start at the club.
You are definitely improving as a club with the opportunities you provide. I guess the test is time and to see who becomes a permanent fixture. It seems Christensen has been improving under Tuchel and James looked very good last season. Mount is the most impressive though for me.
What do you see happening with the likes of;
Chalobah
Gilmour
CHO
Gallagher
RLC (he seems to have totally faded away)
@WeePat and @TheMagicFoolBus too
I'd expect at least 2 of those 5 to end up as Chelsea regulars. They'll all have careers in the top division and get international caps.
RLC has been so unlucky, was in the side and doing well under Sarri then ripped his Achilles and missed a ton of time. He played in all our pre season games recently and then got Covid, he was back on the bench yesterday.
Chalobah - may be the long-term successor to Azpi at RCB. He's very comfortable on the ball and given his experience playing in midfield has no issues stepping up, which is key. If we sack Tuchel and go back to a 4ATB system though, I reckon he might struggle. Seems tailor-made for a wide CB role.
Gilmour - still think he's got the inside track to replace Jorginho. Needs to add to his game defensively - he's not far removed from Jorginho now in terms of his passing but Jorginho's positioning defensively is vastly superior. I do have a sneaking suspicion though that he may need to play in a midfield 3, which would make his immediate future somewhat murky
CHO - needs minutes to show he can apply himself fully to reach the highest level. Absolutely massive natural talent but don't think he's made the most of his opportunities so far. I think he's at a crossroads - if he goes to Dortmund on loan I hope he'd be able to build from there and realise his potential. To be fair, he's far too young to dismiss - but if he stays at Chelsea this year barring injury to other players in front of him I'd worry about his growth being stunted.
Gallagher - could see him being sold next summer - he's absolutely a PL-standard player but for me he needs to work on refining his game a bit. He absolutely works his bollocks off and that'll suit him well, but I don't think he's tidy enough on the ball or in terms of his passing to play as one of the 6s in our current setup, and I don't think he fits well in any other role.
RLC - needs a fresh start. Horrendous luck to pick up the Achilles tear in the stupidest friendly ever - he'd genuinely been brilliant as a left sided 8 under Sarri up until then. Still think there's a player there but frankly there's too much baggage and he's nowhere near a place in the front 5 of Chelsea - but if I were a team like Arsenal, for instance, I'd be absolutely trying to buy him given the state of their midfield
I personally didn't like that Tuchel froze him out. I said lat season that it was the one mark against him last season. That part was frustrating and, to be honest, Tuchel did get criticised a lot by Chelsea fans on social media for that.
He definitely wasn't given a chance once Lampard was gone, but if we consider the full two seasons, he probably was given a lot of game time.
The jury is out with those 5 players. I think RLC is sadly finished at Chelsea. I don't think he has it in him to make it here anymore. Injuries have decimated his career. He's a really sad tale. Chalobah will hopefully prove himself this season. I'm secretly hoping the Kounde deal doesn't happen for his sake. Gallagher is an interesting one. He has all the tools to be a Mount 2.0, but we have players coming out of our ears in the positions his plays. I think it all depends on how successful this loan is, and I guess the same goes for Gilmour, though he has more of a pathway into the first team considering Jorginho's age. Tuchel will promote players if he thinks they're good enough.
Yeah I think we see it pretty much exactly the same, although I'm probably slightly higher on Gallagher than what you appear to be here.
RLC is an interesting one as he does seem to have had bad luck with injuries. It does feel like he needs to go and play somewhere else though now given he's 25.
Interesting insight. Thanks for sharing. I was just having a look at the squad, and loanees, and obviously I appreciate that your way is very much different to United's in how you use the loan market.
Do you see any of the below having a future at the club? I know you've mentioned some above but I also know some players can be late developers so age can be misleading.
Musonda 24
Miazga 26
Kennedy 25
Rahman 27
Moses 30
Gallagher 21
Barkley 27
Drinkwater 31
RLC 25
Clarke- Salter 23
Emerson 27
Gilmour 20
Broja 19
Batshuayi 27
CHO 20
The ones 21 and under have a chance. RLC if there's a miracle.
Moses left a while ago.
The rest are part of the loan army that makes the club money every season.
I like Gallagher a lot, just think he almost has to play as an 8 to get the best of him - he struggled in pre-season at least when deployed deeper and while I hope he can refine himself a bit I also wouldn't want him to lose the edge that makes him great in many ways, if that makes sense?
Anytime mate - always happy to have a chat!
For me the only ones who potentially have a future are Gallagher, Gilmour, and Broja. There are concerns about how they'd fit positionally but all are young enough and all are hitting the benchmarks you'd expect developmentally to still have a reasonable shout of possibly reaching the top level.
I forgot about Ampadu actually. Can see he's in your squad this season.
I know you said 21 or under but some players do develop late on.
I worry that he's Ake 2.0 - bit of a tweener prospect, if I can use some American lingo. Lacking the physicality to be a CB at the top level and lacking the technique to be a defensive midfielder at the top level. Perhaps he might be able to play as a wide CB but there's not really been any indication that this might be the case and frankly I'd be skeptical he could receive and move the ball in tight spaces under pressure.
I wouldn't give up on him just yet but he needs to have a positive loan this season - I don't think he's kicked on the way we initially hoped after signing him and his development has definitely stagnated to an extent.
I hear you. I think Tuchel could find a role for him, or tweak the system a bit to include his skillset. His hustle, intensity, his positional awareness and crucially his eye for a goal is just something I think Tuchel will absolute love to work with and develop.
Yeah could definitely see that. Can't remember who drew the comparison in a different thread (apologies), but Yossi Benayoun was brought up as a potential archetype for Gallagher - for me that fit quite well. I do think that he's likely to be at least a useful squad player at the very highest level - certainly I'd not advocate for selling him yet but just think he might be a bit of an awkward fit in a 3-4-2-1. As you say though I'd have faith in Tuchel deploying him correctly.
That's the thing with loans it's really important to get the right one. It's something we've struggled with. That said a good loan can really turn things around for a player.
We've a few interesting ones this season (I've just picked a few)
Chong at Birmingham - I'd written him off personally but he's only 21 and is pretty much taking the championship by storm at the moment. Could be good form or even just his level but it's been a promising start.
Tuanzebe at Villa - Started last two games and performed well, looks like he will get more game time now with injuries in their CB area. Big loan for him and needs to stay fit.
Williams at Norwich - Not convinced he'll make it at the club unless he improves on the ball. Plays with great intensity but lacks technical ability. Obviously he can improve but a full season in the PL will be a huge indicator of what we've got.
Laird at Swansea - He's a brilliant player and one I do think has a future at United. He's struggled with injuries but is more than capable of being in the mix at full back. Exciting player.
Garner at Forest - Had a good second half of the season spell with them last season and was rated highly statistically and by that club. He's another one who has a pathway to the first team as a CM/DM so would really like to see him take the opportunity. Very much like Carrick.
Pellistri at Alaves - Be interesting to see how he performs as he looked quite impressive pre season. Very early days though but I see him as more a David Silva style player rather than a pacey wide man. His technical ability and close control looks pretty good.
A couple of others worth looking out for but aren't on loan are Amad, Hannibal, Elanga and Shoretire. I think the plan was for Amad to go on loan but he's picked up and injury unfortunately so might stay. The others will be in and around the first team squad.
A decent goalscorer is like gold-dust. Just because Abraham wasn't as silky on the ball, he seemed to have gotten written off by a lot of hipster snobs.
He's a good player who'll score a lot of goals in Italy. Then he'll probably come back to the PL where he'll carry on scoring a lot of goals. Good luck to the lad while he's out there.
I think he got underrated at Chelsea because he wasn't one of the world's best. At any other club, he would have been seen much more fairly. There's probably not a lot between him and DCL, for instance.
He's a good player who'll score a lot of goals in Italy. Then he'll probably come back to the PL where he'll carry on scoring a lot of goals. Good luck to the lad while he's out there.
I think he got underrated at Chelsea because he wasn't one of the world's best. At any other club, he would have been seen much more fairly. There's probably not a lot between him and DCL, for instance.
i hope his game develops like Lukaku's did in italy. Very underrated fella