Teacher beheaded near Paris after showing cartoons of Prophet Muhammad

Sad Chris

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Your comments are becoming very hectoring on this thread. We've had plenty of Muslims post in this discussion to say they absolutely condemn what the terrorists are doing.

This latest murderer came from Tunisia via Italy, got to France and then immediately decided to kill 3 innocent Catholic worshippers who were minding their own business. What can any random British Muslim do about that, in reality, other than say it's wrong and it's wicked, and follow a peaceful path themselves?
Penna, just condemning obviously isn‘t working. Hectoring is a nice way of putting it. I am seriously fed up of — at best — the passive condemnation of religious people — and at worst, the endless defensiveness of religion — that leads to nothing at all. I choose to make you feel unconfortable because nothing is happening. Nothing.

If I just sit back and trust in religions taking care of things themselves, we all know what is going to change. You point out yourself, and I‘m paraphrasing here: what can we do apart from follow a peaceful path ourselves

I claim you should — as a community, as a religion, as people who claim to know that a deity exists — do a — pardon my language — a shitload more. It‘s not enough, not by far.

And just to be clear, I have religious family and friends, who I love and treasure endlessly, who are fantastic, loving and caring people. But even they don‘t get through a meal with me without needing to come up with more than „what are we supposed to do?“
 

Volumiza

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This latest murderer came from Tunisia via Italy, got to France and then immediately decided to kill 3 innocent Catholic worshippers who were minding their own business. What can any random British Muslim do about that, in reality, other than say it's wrong and it's wicked, and follow a peaceful path themselves?
I’ve been reading this thread with interest and I think this needed to be said.

I feel I'm well within my rights to criticize such content and also to ridicule anyone who then defends such content as the work of an omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving (and yet seemingly bigoted, sexist and genocidal) invisible being. I don't see this as "setting out to offend".
Criticism is one thing, ridicule is another and I would usually associate ridicule, when out in the open, be at the expense of someone or something.
 

fergieisold

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Penna, just condemning obviously isn‘t working. Hectoring is a nice way of putting it. I am seriously fed up of — at best — the passive condemnation of religious people — and at worst, the endless defensiveness of religion — that leads to nothing at all. I choose to make you feel unconfortable because nothing is happening. Nothing.

If I just sit back and trust in religions taking care of things themselves, we all know what is going to change. You point out yourself, and I‘m paraphrasing here: what can we do apart from follow a peaceful path ourselves

I claim you should — as a community, as a religion, as people who claim to know that a deity exists — do a — pardon my language — a shitload more. It‘s not enough, not by far.

And just to be clear, I have religious family and friends, who I love and treasure endlessly, who are fantastic, loving and caring people. But even they don‘t get through a meal with me without needing to come up with more than „what are we supposed to do?“
I've been questioned about what I mean by the muslim community when suggesting they are the answer. I suppose I mean active practicing muslims, people who are deeply involved with their religion and peaceful. These people are the solution. I'm not blaming them, it's just me asking the people closest to the problem what can be done, it's the only way, reform from within.
 

DoomSlayer

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Nothing wrong with my posting history. You're trying to intimidate people to prevent criticism on an ideology that promotes violence, war, imperialism, misogyny, slavery, obedience and threatens gays, jews, and everyone who doesnt follow their rules without questioning. Reminds you of anything? Who are you calling right wing extremists? People who want liberty, equality, fraternity, tolerance, peace, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, social cohesion, opportunity and beeing free from fear?
This is not about cartoons, this is about power. Another inch needs to be given, not just in a conflict between islam and the West, but also in a show off between different branches and movements of islam, they're competing in toughness like Latin-American drug lords. Every muslim leader has to be more offended than the other and 'every' muslim too, it's a competition in intolerance on several levels. France is having these battles at several fronts, in streets, schools, swimming pools and beaches.
I wanted to know what it is and it doesn't seem to exist. I don't deny there's racism that affects muslims, but your faith and the way you practice it is a choice you've made that can be judged, and ridiculed. I like to ridicule calvinists and other protestants, I like to ridicule catholics (still many of my family), but if I ridicule islam it's suddenly something akin to racism? You can't hide behind a fiction just because you came up with a word from criticism on what you stand for. Why is there no hinduphobia, christianophobia, buddhistphobia and zoroastrophobia? Has the racism or bigotry suddenly disappeared with often a lot darker skin colours, or might it have something to do with islam beeing the most agressive, violent, expansive, intolerant, demanding and hateful of them all and there's a lot of reason in fearing it?

No, i like to make it between Western values and the most backward of religions. Besides the by now regular stabbings and beheadings by some margin the largest group of victims of islam in Europe are the European musllims, especially the truly moderate ones. The system of oppression and submission targets them first, to keep in line, be the most muslim by beeing more conservative and strict. There are a lot of very conservative and agressive muslim men who see it as their task to guard the faith and practices by intimidation. There's always this force, this greater islam trying to hold them back, trying to make islam everything but just another religion practiced freely in the West.

Many of the modern left, contrary to their predecessors who were much more thorough in their analysis, has chosen denial over realism and pretends all these muslim immigrants will soon embrace their LGTBQ-agenda and change from their extremely intolerant background into the most tolerant as is unique to Europe just because some group of genderfluid environmentalists who believe the headscarf is a feminist statement smile at them and claim they're welcome. A huge part of the left has lost it's reason in more than one way but that doesn't justify calling a genuine reasonable fear a phobia.
Germany registers anti-semitic incidents automatically as extreme-right. In my view that's justifiable because there's very little difference between radical muslims and neonazi's, but not to paint the wrong picture. It's also not just about the numbers but also about the seriousness of cirmes. I don't want to downplay the neonazi threat in Germany but slashings and driving trucks through crowds are a bit different from waving flags and singing songs.

Why not? There are billions of people in the world who would like to live in Europe instead of their muslim country that usually has messed up. The union of employers was watering at the mouth at the sight of so much cheap labour, people were claiming it would solve the problem of the aging population despite the remarkably low percentage of wombs among the war refugees, a remarkably low percentage of people from a region in war too. It's not like the conservative and often rich muslim countries tried to keep all these highly educated muslims in the muslim world. No, they are ready to finance the extremely conservative and often radical islam in Germany and send hateful imams and contribute to dragging back muslims to fundamentalism and promote outbreeding the infidels by having more kids and have them younger. The latter is not to be underestimated when it comes to demographic change. It's not like the muslim world doesn't have plans for Europe and those don't involve the wishes of the infidels.

It's not like the German government said wait a minute, we have a social contract, we're a democracy, we have to serve the people as they are and do what's best for the Germans of now and for example take social cohesion into consideration. The German government didn't question it's own right to force a huge demograhpic change upon the Germans, nor did of course the EU. And it was not like they were in control, immigration was decided on by the immigrants by reaching the border, whether that was the EU's border or the German border. Of course this caused opposition, an oppositon that migh be a bit smelly, especially around the edges, but the rise of Pegida and AfD are part of the dynamic that forced the government to take back control, ironically helped by Orban who built a fence. Now the pace is slower but policy is still changing the demographic of Germany in the hope it will all magically work out this time with islam despite it never did anywhere before and muslims worldwide and in Europe have only become more conservative and radical since. Yes it worked out for lots of individual muslims, and it worked out with a lot of individual muslims, but in great numbers they always come with the troublesome ones. As a whole, mass muslim immigration has caused trouble everywhere and the country with the most muslims who've been there the longest has the most problems. The French are not perfect but name one country that managed to make it a success.

It's not a simple as that, as in once there is a muslim majority they will vote for sharia and then we're all living like in Iran or Saudi-Arabia or whatever. Islam doesn't work democratically. A fanatic minority has a huge impact, it already has, because it doesn't stick to the rules of functioning legal and executive authorities, who often don't function when it comes to islam btw. Islamisation is also self censorship out of fear of kalashnikovs and getting beheaded. It's a very simple choice, do I make that joke, draw that cartoon or write that piece and have to look over my shoulder all the time, or do I just do something else so my life doesn't get difficult? You can't hardly blame them, is that islamophobic? The continuous fanaticism wears the functioning legal and executive authorities out, and other institutions also. Try to teach a class with a majority muslim kids about the holocaust, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, gay rights and tolerance, that's going to be a very difficult lesson and in the evening you have to answer to the parents and other family members. It's a constant fight and you can't expect teachers or other parents to keep that up all the time and they don't. Many very progressive 'welcome refugees' parents are giving up, the school is not the multicultural paradise they envisioned, but dominated by a multicultural group that tells their kids they'll burn in hell, can't eat porc on their sandwiches and boys and girls can't touch. When it comes to their own kids they're suddenly forced to face the reality of islam in Europe and change schools.

There's a lot more to be rationally and reasonably scared of than a muslim majority democratically imposing the sharia.
Great post overall. A lot of very intelligent people have decided to look the other way on all these issues, either due to fear of being called a bigot, racist, some type of "phobe" or due to extreme optimism towards human nature.

The people of the West are punishing themselves for the historic actions of their governments. I can certainly condemn the imperial history of Western civilisation and the negative impact it has had all over the world, however the problem is the burden of all this is now falling on the shoulders of totally innocent people, who naively choose to disregard the historical context of these processes going on.

My country Bulgaria used to be a part of the Islamic Ottoman empire, due to their religious conquests in the Medieval times. They enslaved and conquered us, ruling over our people and land for 5 centuries. It's incredibly difficult living in these circumstances nowadays, because Turkey is our neighbour and we have loads of different ethnic and religious minorities in the regions close to Turkey, who are strongly influenced by the foreign policies of Turkey and they are also used by Turkey to put pressure on us constantly and mess with our own internal affairs, which in effect also messes up with EU policies and affairs.

After the fall of the USSR, there was a lot of hope in the 90s that a society of all the types of ethnicities and religions can easily coexist peacefully, but the historical burdens are too heavy to ever be forgotten, for any side of the conversation. You can't tell our people to be tolerant to the fullest, whilst also somehow putting blame on us for the situation in the Middle East, when we've never had anything to do with the wars of the West for influence and natural resources (don't give me that "democracy" crap, please). A society like ours has suffered so much and when we are pointed out as being bigots for having justifiable fears of an extremist ideology that already had us in chains for 500 years, it truly creates proper hatred and even more "Islamophobia". Our people were massacred by the Ottomans "in the name of Islam", this is our history and our heritage. What kept our nation from being erased was our memory, cherishing the history, values and Christian traditions, so people need to understand that religious wars still exist to this day, they just happen and occur in a lot more subdued ways.
 
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UnrelatedPsuedo

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Penna, just condemning obviously isn‘t working. Hectoring is a nice way of putting it. I am seriously fed up of — at best — the passive condemnation of religious people — and at worst, the endless defensiveness of religion — that leads to nothing at all. I choose to make you feel unconfortable because nothing is happening. Nothing.

If I just sit back and trust in religions taking care of things themselves, we all know what is going to change. You point out yourself, and I‘m paraphrasing here: what can we do apart from follow a peaceful path ourselves

I claim you should — as a community, as a religion, as people who claim to know that a deity exists — do a — pardon my language — a shitload more. It‘s not enough, not by far.

And just to be clear, I have religious family and friends, who I love and treasure endlessly, who are fantastic, loving and caring people. But even they don‘t get through a meal with me without needing to come up with more than „what are we supposed to do?“
They’re doing as much as you.
 

Giggsyking

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

Should Christianity be blamed for the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi people?

Off course an ignorant radicalized psychopath beheading someone's head get more attention than a war criminal like George Bush when he claim "God told him to go to war in IRAQ" that caused the death of hundreds of thousands of people. Yet George Bush lives a normal life and maybe he is considered a hero by some people in his country and maybe even here!

The bigger problem is not the religion itself, yes religions should be criticized in details and reformed to suit modern society, but it is not going to be enough, because the politics behind it will always have more effect. In the sixties and seventies the arab world "specially leading arabic countries like Iraq, Egypt, etc " were going into the direction away from tribal and religious communities to modernization, until the west put their hands again in this region and install their own puppets again. It is so obvious that I dont think it needs explaining.
 

midnightmare

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Criticism is one thing, ridicule is another and I would usually associate ridicule, when out in the open, be at the expense of someone or something.
The difference between criticism and ridicule is simply one of tone. Sure, it's better to criticize than ridicule, but tone also depends on the interpretation of the listener. For example, I could (literally) quote from Genesis and critique it citing massive inconsistencies, logical flaws, complete factual inaccuracies and more. That's factual criticism in my mind - but may not be in yours. Similarly, I could quote multiple verses across religious texts that are extremely violent, misogynistic etc. and say that people need to stop buying this stuff and realize that if not for brainwashing in their formative years, they'd all agree that this stuff should not be eulogized, taught or defended in a civil society. That would be me stating an opinion based on fact. Some however, could see it as ridicule.

That aside, I also believe that ridicule should not be frowned upon anyway and must not be an "exception" from the purview of free speech. I don't see anyone saying we should not ridicule Trump or Boris or even Piers Morgan. People are ridiculed for things. At times it can offend some to see how far this goes, but does that mean we just stop any and all criticism in the name of "not offending" or "let's not ridicule"?

Democracy and free society need true and complete freedom of speech if they are to be vibrant.
 

utdalltheway

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The whatsboutery and deflection from some of the Muslims on the latest murder of innocents is both infuriating and embarrassing.
There should only be strong condemnation without caveats, excuses, etc.

Discussion on issues such as the history of a conflict, islamophobia, racism, etc. belong in a different thread.
 

oates

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The difference between criticism and ridicule is simply one of tone. Sure, it's better to criticize than ridicule, but tone also depends on the interpretation of the listener. For example, I could (literally) quote from Genesis and critique it citing massive inconsistencies, logical flaws, complete factual inaccuracies and more. That's factual criticism in my mind - but may not be in yours. Similarly, I could quote multiple verses across religious texts that are extremely violent, misogynistic etc. and say that people need to stop buying this stuff and realize that if not for brainwashing in their formative years, they'd all agree that this stuff should not be eulogized, taught or defended in a civil society. That would be me stating an opinion based on fact. Some however, could see it as ridicule.

That aside, I also believe that ridicule should not be frowned upon anyway and must not be an "exception" from the purview of free speech. I don't see anyone saying we should not ridicule Trump or Boris or even Piers Morgan. People are ridiculed for things. At times it can offend some to see how far this goes, but does that mean we just stop any and all criticism in the name of "not offending" or "let's not ridicule"?

Democracy and free society need true and complete freedom of speech if they are to be vibrant.
Firstly your problem is that you probably understand Genesis just about as well as the Evangelicals do and secondly your appeal to ridicule is based as is some others in this thread on attempting to put a new coat on their bigotry by taking a complex nuanced problem and turning it into the object of your contempt by portraying a belief system as absurd.

Neither being the topic of this thread but an eye of the needle sized opening for you and others to squeeze in your derision.

Plenty of other threads for that.
 

Volumiza

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The difference between criticism and ridicule is simply one of tone.
I disagree very strongly with that. It isn’t tone, it is intent and saying it is dependent on the listener is questionable to say the least.

And in regards to criticism of genesis or any other religious text I am actually in agreement with you, I am non religious but I am very accepting of people who do choose to follow a faith and would never ever even consider ridiculing them for it. The tone with which you choose to criticise or challenge people is your choice so to ridicule would be your intent.

and say that people need to stop buying this stuff and realize that if not for brainwashing in their formative years, they'd all agree that this stuff should not be eulogized, taught or defended in a civil society. That would be me stating an opinion based on fact. Some however, could see it as ridicule.
Using language including words such as brainwashing and suggesting that being of faith, or defending that faith is uncivilised is tone deaf though and suggests not only ridicule but also belligerence, which will never sit well with anybody. Whether you agree with others being brought up to believe in any faith isn’t your choice to make for the world.

My personal view is ridicule is childish unless done for pure comedy, satire if you will, but to choose to ridicule anything you don’t agree with or understand is weakness or a lacking on your part.

Democracy and free society need true and complete freedom of speech if they are to be vibrant.
Absolutely, but surely free speech should also carry with it a responsibility to at least be sensitive or open for comeback? Ridicule definitely isn’t sensitive or doesn’t allow for comeback other than by reciprocation. Of course the recipient could choose to laugh it off or ignore it, as is my way, and the way I would hope Muslims would be able to do regarding the Charlie Hebdo cartoon, but the initial act itself would still stand. So what’s the point of that in this scenario?

My own view for the record is that I think all religions have the need for a level of introspection. We know Christianity and Catholicism have both had to take long hard looks at themselves and their faith, I also think Islam owes the world the same.
 

Dr. Funkenstein

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I've reported this post for excessive harmful disinformation, corruption of language for the purpose of discrimination and use of racist language.

For example you shouldn't be able to just say the following because you feel like it:
Did you feelings got hurt by questioning the meaning of a propagandistic term, did it offend you or don't you need any excuse to want people silenced because they don't buy your BS?

When referring to a widely acknowledged concept such as Islamophobia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia#Etymology_and_definitions This way lies racist revisionism. Islamophobia isn't just lefty wordplay, this is a recognised thing.
Probably by people who feel the need to convince themselves and their peers that they're not racist by bowing deep to anything non Western.

Furthermore I think these are two clear examples of racist imagery and bigoted generalisation:
You've got a point there. I apoligize to all Latin-American druglords for hurting their feelings.

Your comments are becoming very hectoring on this thread. We've had plenty of Muslims post in this discussion to say they absolutely condemn what the terrorists are doing.
Those terrorists come from a majority of muslims who believe nobody in the world can draw their prophet, so if they condemn the beheading, what wouldn't they condemn as a reaction? A beating up? How severe should the injuries be? Or community service?

This latest murderer came from Tunisia via Italy, got to France and then immediately decided to kill 3 innocent Catholic worshippers who were minding their own business. What can any random British Muslim do about that, in reality, other than say it's wrong and it's wicked, and follow a peaceful path themselves?
Claiming no one can draw the prophet or show drawings of the prophet is not a peaceful path, it's an attack on the freedom of religion of non muslims. There's the totalitarian islam as we know from muslim countries with violence as the logical consequence of not obeying islam's religious rules, and there's the islam that functions within the freedom of religion of Western countries as 'offered' to all it's citizens. You can't pick the totalitarian islam by supporting religious rules for non believers and then claim beeing moderate and follow the peaceful path by just not getting involved in violence yourself. You support a violent totalitarian ideology or you don't.

So if only the radical islam is the enemy within France, then radical islam the enemy within French islam too. If it's not and radical islam can hide within French islam and get support from it, islam is the enemy within France. So what a random French muslim can and must do is make an effort to get rid of all the radicals and radical ideas, i.e. that of totalitarian islam. You can't say 'this is not my islam' but I agree with and/or tolerate totalitarian principle behind the beheadings.

There's no need to set out to offend just for the sake of it.
There actually is. If they are offended by defying their totalitarian reach then that 'religious' feeling can't be hurt bad enough. If the Tories claim that you can't draw the prime minister because it offends them, you have to offend them to draw the line. Otherwise they'll claim criticising policies is offensive too. If someone openly threatens your freedom of expression or freedom of religion, ridicule is actually a very mild and extremely civilized response.
 

fergieisold

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I've reported this post for excessive harmful disinformation, corruption of language for the purpose of discrimination and use of racist language.

For example you shouldn't be able to just say the following because you feel like it:

When referring to a widely acknowledged concept such as Islamophobia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia#Etymology_and_definitions This way lies racist revisionism. Islamophobia isn't just lefty wordplay, this is a recognised thing.

Furthermore I think these are two clear examples of racist imagery and bigoted generalisation:
Sorry but that’s a bit overly sensitive of you. poster makes some strong points but it’s clearly his opinion, you have to be able to read things you don’t agree with without wanting them censored.
 

Gehrman

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I disagree very strongly with that. It isn’t tone, it is intent and saying it is dependent on the listener is questionable to say the least.

And in regards to criticism of genesis or any other religious text I am actually in agreement with you, I am non religious but I am very accepting of people who do choose to follow a faith and would never ever even consider ridiculing them for it. The tone with which you choose to criticise or challenge people is your choice so to ridicule would be your intent.



Using language including words such as brainwashing and suggesting that being of faith, or defending that faith is uncivilised is tone deaf though and suggests not only ridicule but also belligerence, which will never sit well with anybody. Whether you agree with others being brought up to believe in any faith isn’t your choice to make for the world.

My personal view is ridicule is childish unless done for pure comedy, satire if you will, but to choose to ridicule anything you don’t agree with or understand is weakness or a lacking on your part.



Absolutely, but surely free speech should also carry with it a responsibility to at least be sensitive or open for comeback? Ridicule definitely isn’t sensitive or doesn’t allow for comeback other than by reciprocation. Of course the recipient could choose to laugh it off or ignore it, as is my way, and the way I would hope Muslims would be able to do regarding the Charlie Hebdo cartoon, but the initial act itself would still stand. So what’s the point of that in this scenario?

My own view for the record is that I think all religions have the need for a level of introspection. We know Christianity and Catholicism have both had to take long hard looks at themselves and their faith, I also think Islam owes the world the same.
You know. There is no one forcing muslims to subscribe to Charlie Hebdo. It would be almost to too rational just to ignore them. When I think now 253 people have been killed over this "Cartoon crisis" I actually don't think there is very much nuance in this at all.
 

Foxbatt

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Anyone really blaming those barbaric murders on C.Hebdo or Macron or even trying to relativize them, needs to get their head checked. Clearly something wrong with them.
No one is blaming Macron or Hebdo for the murders. Everyone is condemning them. But it seems some are blaming the Muslims for the individual crimes of a few people.
This issue is not the cartoons anymore.
 

africanspur

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Did you feelings got hurt by questioning the meaning of a propagandistic term, did it offend you or don't you need any excuse to want people silenced because they don't buy your BS?

Probably by people who feel the need to convince themselves and their peers that they're not racist by bowing deep to anything non Western.

You've got a point there. I apoligize to all Latin-American druglords for hurting their feelings.

Those terrorists come from a majority of muslims who believe nobody in the world can draw their prophet, so if they condemn the beheading, what wouldn't they condemn as a reaction? A beating up? How severe should the injuries be? Or community service?

Claiming no one can draw the prophet or show drawings of the prophet is not a peaceful path, it's an attack on the freedom of religion of non muslims. There's the totalitarian islam as we know from muslim countries with violence as the logical consequence of not obeying islam's religious rules, and there's the islam that functions within the freedom of religion of Western countries as 'offered' to all it's citizens. You can't pick the totalitarian islam by supporting religious rules for non believers and then claim beeing moderate and follow the peaceful path by just not getting involved in violence yourself. You support a violent totalitarian ideology or you don't.

So if only the radical islam is the enemy within France, then radical islam the enemy within French islam too. If it's not and radical islam can hide within French islam and get support from it, islam is the enemy within France. So what a random French muslim can and must do is make an effort to get rid of all the radicals and radical ideas, i.e. that of totalitarian islam. You can't say 'this is not my islam' but I agree with and/or tolerate totalitarian principle behind the beheadings.

There actually is. If they are offended by defying their totalitarian reach then that 'religious' feeling can't be hurt bad enough. If the Tories claim that you can't draw the prime minister because it offends them, you have to offend them to draw the line. Otherwise they'll claim criticising policies is offensive too. If someone openly threatens your freedom of expression or freedom of religion, ridicule is actually a very mild and extremely civilized response.
The problem with your posts is that any valid points are sadly buried within frankly offensive stereotypes about taqqiya or how islamophobia doesn't exist.

Sure, some Muslims use the term to shut down criticism of the religion or of problems within the Muslim communities themselves, just as some Jews use anti-semitism to do the same. But to suggest that anti-semitism doesn't exist at all is quite offensive imo. If someone shouts offensive abuse at a random muslim walking down the street or attacks them for nothing other than the fact they appear Muslim (or in some cases Hindus or Sikhs who just get hit by collateral..) what would you call that?
 

africanspur

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They really are. I actually do think acknowledging there's a problem and looking at leaders of any religion to set the right agenda, but blaming innocent individuals is just awful.
Totally agree.

I still stand by the fact there is a significant problem with the prism through many in the Muslim community view these issues (and have seen it again after this second attack within my own circles) but posts attacking and blaming individuals are truly shite and completely miss the mark. Awful awful posts and, ironically, probably has the opposite effect of what they intend.
 

fergieisold

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The problem with your posts is that any valid points are sadly buried within frankly offensive stereotypes about taqqiya or how islamophobia doesn't exist.

Sure, some Muslims use the term to shut down criticism of the religion or of problems within the Muslim communities themselves, just as some Jews use anti-semitism to do the same. But to suggest that anti-semitism doesn't exist at all is quite offensive imo. If someone shouts offensive abuse at a random muslim walking down the street or attacks them for nothing other than the fact they appear Muslim (or in some cases Hindus or Sikhs who just get hit by collateral..) what would you call that?
I think we probably all agree there’s unjustified hatred towards Muslims from knuckle dragging racists, but I personally don’t like the term islamophobia. It’s a weird term that’s most often associated with any criticism of Islam. It seems to have come about to silence critics, there should be a better term that actually deals with unjustified hatred of Muslims.
 

Duafc

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I think we probably all agree there’s unjustified hatred towards Muslims from knuckle dragging racists, but I personally don’t like the term islamophobia. It’s a weird term that’s most often associated with any criticism of Islam. It seems to have come about to silence critics, there should be a better term that actually deals with unjustified hatred of Muslims.
Aye the unjustified hatred of Muslims.

As opposed to all that justified hatred.
 

oates

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I think we probably all agree there’s unjustified hatred towards Muslims from knuckle dragging racists, but I personally don’t like the term islamophobia. It’s a weird term that’s most often associated with any criticism of Islam. It seems to have come about to silence critics, there should be a better term that actually deals with unjustified hatred of Muslims.
I think when the United Nations adopts a resolution naming it as Islamaphobia alongside Antisemitism then it's probably safe to use the term and believe it exists for some reason.
 

africanspur

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I think we probably all agree there’s unjustified hatred towards Muslims from knuckle dragging racists, but I personally don’t like the term islamophobia. It’s a weird term that’s most often associated with any criticism of Islam. It seems to have come about to silence critics, there should be a better term that actually deals with unjustified hatred of Muslims.
But surely any term will do exactly the same? The terminology won't change things?

Even if it was called anti-Muslim bigotry or anti-Muslimism or a totally new made up word, I still think the exact same dynamics would be in play.

Some people would still use it to try to shut down some justified criticism and others would claim that the term is a misnomer and it is perfectly justified to be fearful of Islam/ Muslims.

Its become a weird debate on semantics that clearly belies a more sinister undertone.
 

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I think we probably all agree there’s unjustified hatred towards Muslims from knuckle dragging racists, but I personally don’t like the term islamophobia. It’s a weird term that’s most often associated with any criticism of Islam. It seems to have come about to silence critics, there should be a better term that actually deals with unjustified hatred of Muslims.
Ultimately, these terms are merely linguistic devices for groups to wield moral leverage and power over the opposing view. The issue isn't the term itself, but more so whether its used appropriately or simply to score points in a heated argument. That of course is also subjective and debates like this are most productive if all the participants refrain from using hyperbolic language.
 

Giggsyking

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The whatsboutery and deflection from some of the Muslims on the latest murder of innocents is both infuriating and embarrassing.
There should only be strong condemnation without caveats, excuses, etc.

Discussion on issues such as the history of a conflict, islamophobia, racism, etc. belong in a different thread.
Dont be naive, everything is connected. Were you offended by the USA crimes in Iraq?
 

Gehrman

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But surely any term will do exactly the same? The terminology won't change things?

Even if it was called anti-Muslim bigotry or anti-Muslimism or a totally new made up word, I still think the exact same dynamics would be in play.

Some people would still use it to try to shut down some justified criticism and others would claim that the term is a misnomer and it is perfectly justified to be fearful of Islam/ Muslims.

Its become a weird debate on semantics that clearly belies a more sinister undertone.
I still think anti-muslim bigotry is a better word. Islam is a relious belief system and which contains a political ideology and political system. It deserves to be held up to scutiny and I'm still confused about who gets to decide when critism of it accrues to "phobia". Muslims on the other hand are soon 2 billion people who are all different individuals who might choose to practice their religion in all sorts of different ways and some with very much zeal and some with very little zeal at all like cultural christians or cultural buddhists and are all uniquely different individuals.
 
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fergieisold

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But surely any term will do exactly the same? The terminology won't change things?

Even if it was called anti-Muslim bigotry or anti-Muslimism or a totally new made up word, I still think the exact same dynamics would be in play.

Some people would still use it to try to shut down some justified criticism and others would claim that the term is a misnomer and it is perfectly justified to be fearful of Islam/ Muslims.

Its become a weird debate on semantics that clearly belies a more sinister undertone.
yeh you’re probably right, I just feel the islamophobia term gets thrown around really easily when there’s any sort of discussion about potentially troublesome bits of Islam.
 

fergieisold

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Ultimately, these terms are merely linguistic devices for groups to wield moral leverage and power over the opposing view. The issue isn't the term itself, but more so whether its used appropriately or simply to score points in a heated argument. That of course is also subjective and debates like this are most productive if all the participants refrain from using hyperbolic language.
I sometimes think if we all lived in the same town we’d go down the pub and probably realise we all shared some sort of common ground within about 30 minutes and then we could close this thread. :lol:
 

africanspur

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I still think anti-muslim bigotry is a better word. Islam is a relious belief system and which contains a political ideology and political system. It deserves to be held up to scutiny and I'm still confused about who gets to decide when critism of it accrues to "phobia". Muslims on the other hand are soon 2 billion people who are all different individuals who might choose to practice their religion in all sorts of different ways and some with very much zeal and some with very little zeal at all like cultural christians or cultural buddhists.
I mean, it may well be a better term or a more accurate term but as I said, I don't think changing the terminology will do much to shift the narrative.

Some people will still use it to try to shut down criticism (I had someone yesterday for example ask why its OK to make fun of Muhammed but not OK to make fun of the holocaust or make racist cartoons about black people and could not understand the various arguments I put forward as to how those are not at all equivalent) and some will still find ways to argue that any term to describe hatred against Muslims is somehow inaccurate or conflating criticism of Muslims with criticism/ attacks on the religion itself.

It is the same with anti-semitism no? Rightly or wrongly, some people immediately jump to saying Jews use anti-semitism to deflect valid criticism of the state of Israel. I've heard Arabs say some of the most anti-semitic stuff in my life and, when challenged, ask me how on earth they can be anti-semitic when they themselves are semitic peoples. Or (slightly different) how some of my younger Egyptian-in-laws initially saw fit to call me 'my nigger', in a way they genuinely thought 'endearing'. When I immediately shut that shit down, they would reply with 'how can we be racist against blacks, we're also African'.

I don't think the exact terminology of anti-Muslim bigotry is our biggest problem here.
 

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I sometimes think if we all lived in the same town we’d go down the pub and probably realise we all shared some sort of common ground within about 30 minutes and then we could close this thread. :lol:
Probably right. Its easier to reach common ground when you are face to face than when you're a random account posting text on a 2 dimensional surface.
 

Gehrman

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I sometimes think if we all lived in the same town we’d go down the pub and probably realise we all shared some sort of common ground within about 30 minutes and then we could close this thread. :lol:
But what if those of us if were zealous muslims or buddhists didn't have a pint. We'd be sipping coca cola while you'd be rambling whilst you're drunk :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Wolverine

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So I've lost about 12 or so family or friends directly as a result of terrorist attacks. Mainly extended family due to target killing in Pakistan (I'm from a Shia family). I say "or so" because some of my family members were murdered in target killings that I'm not sure what the motivation was. They haven't been able to commemorate Ashura in Pakistan because of that threat.

Its not lost on me the implications of combating terrorism. And the necessity to do so. I can list a lot of examples at a personal and community level that I know my family, friends, community members have done in the places I've lived in (Dublin, London and now Leicester) with regards to not just refugees settling in, working with law enforcement specifically on the issue of reporting suspecting terrorist activity (including an example of a tutor we had suspicions about who later was arrested and charged due to information given by those going to mosques)

Most of these guys are not known to mosques, they don't get on with the Imams due to majority preaching tolerance and cooperation with authorities, but the messaging to mosque attendees on how to report safely coming from community leaders I've seen countless times. Similar contact between law enforcement exists within Islamic schools with popular muslim influencers and anti-terrorist short films shown in primary schools. It is difficult because like I said as research shows from MI5 terrorists aren't always well integrated in their communities. I was in the committee for a charity in university called Student Action for Refugees (STAR) which worked with better integrating refugees into London through helping the youngsters with homework and integration. I'm doing something similar with refugees in the Leicestershire area but more with asylum application, signposting refugees to volunteer sector and other economic opportunities.

There was a lot of feedback given for the Prevent programme, I wrote extensively about it in my feedback when I did my first course of Prevent which I found to be problematic (and loads others did too). To be fair in the course when I did the repeat/revalidation it was a lot better and I think it was a lot better received, even though not sure what evidence base is like for it preventing radicalisation more than other community based initiatives.

And thats in addition to how I live my life as a trainee GP promoting health on radio, coronavirus information translation to inner city Leicester communities on behalf of a primary care network.

And I'm no where near somebody who does a lot compared to other acquaintances or friends I know. Yet despite that, despite that effort there will be fringe radicals commiting terrorism and crimes.

Sorry but I bear no responsibility for that, and I would say that we as a community aren't doing enough if we weren't. But we are. Online propaganda is something that is difficult to counter though because you only need to find a deranged criminal to radicalise and they will commit murder. But thats not on me or my community.

Those without any insight into our community beyond "but I have many muslim friends", their opinions are not noteworthy or accurate or relevant.
 
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SinNombre

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What's the cause of target killing in Pakistan? How do you see this being resolved?
 

Wolverine

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What's the cause of target killing in Pakistan? How do you see this being resolved?
Political reasons quite often. Land-based, property based disputes. Sectarianism. Widespread availability of guns, no gun laws. Endemic corruption. Ineffective law enforcement. Etc etc. I don't see it being resolved, Pakistan is a failed state now and for the forseeable future. Don't see Imran Khan turning things around and fallout from corona won't help
 

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The problem with your posts is that any valid points are sadly buried within frankly offensive stereotypes about taqqiya or how islamophobia doesn't exist.
Taqqiy does exist, but I agree I shouldn't have brought it up because could be used for having the same implication as 'Der Ewige Jude'. Besides that it didn't really cover what I meant. What I meant was a tendency with muslims and muslim organizations to present themselves as pretty moderate, and once they're more established another inch is demanded and they often turn out to be quite a bit less moderate. Especially from the organizations it's seems a strategy.

Sure, some Muslims use the term to shut down criticism of the religion or of problems within the Muslim communities themselves, just as some Jews use anti-semitism to do the same. But to suggest that anti-semitism doesn't exist at all is quite offensive imo.
Yes, but firstly antisemitism is racial and race is simply not open to criticism because it's never relevant in a way that one can be anti because it's not a choice. Secondly it's not worded like some mental issue with comes with irrationality. I don't know of any attitude, behaviour or stance that might be covered well by islamophobia.

If someone shouts offensive abuse at a random muslim walking down the street or attacks them for nothing other than the fact they appear Muslim (or in some cases Hindus or Sikhs who just get hit by collateral..) what would you call that?
Hate crime? Racism? A true muslimophobe wouldn't do that, he would be petrified or run away shivering. Also if you mean any fear or hate towards people, name it after the people and not the religion. There's also propagandistic value in the equation of the person and the religion, like it's something you're born with and has nothing to do with choice. Islam likes to present itself as some kind of race to get the same protection, it suggests some inevitability and unchangeability which is one of islam's teachings, apostasy is not allowed. But I don't agree, I'm not accepting it's propaganda or it's logic as relevant to it's place in society I'm allowed to discuss. Someone mentioned the power of words here, and I agree because words are often used for power and if you want to pinpoint something you shouldn't let yourself be tricked into using words that are designed to mask the sour point.
Great post overall. A lot of very intelligent people have decided to look the other way on all these issues, either due to fear of being called a bigot, racist, some type of "phobe" or due to extreme optimism towards human nature.

The people of the West are punishing themselves for the historic actions of their governments. I can certainly condemn the imperial history of Western civilisation and the negative impact it has had all over the world, however the problem is the burden of all this is now falling on the shoulders of totally innocent people, who naively choose to disregard the historical context of these processes going on.
Terrible things have been done in the imperial history and it's easy to condemn them by today's standards, but to be honest I'm not sure the sum of the impact was negative allthough the native Americans (North and South) have been hit extremely hard. What we see that the West is judged by the values and norms it gave to the world, and only the West. Somehow the muslims managed to manouver themselves in a historical victim role just like the Africans and many Asians, but they weren't any less imperial or bloody than the Europeans. On the contrary, they just ended up less successfull despite their greater indifference to human suffering because if your society is ruled by islam you're going to get outsmarted by free people. But now it's all together against the evil whites that did such terrible things, the acknowledgement of atrocities is a soft spot to be exploited. The Arabs have taken far more slaves from Africa and treated them much worse. The Arabs, Turks and Berbers enslaved millions of Europeans too while I don't know of any systemic enslavement of muslims by Europeans. Maybe some Berber or Ottoman pirates ended up on Spanish galleys but that's probably about it.

I'm much more condemning of the post WWII, post imperial West which often did not meet it's own standards that were raised throughout it's history, even Arab and Persian muslims became victim for a change.

My country Bulgaria used to be a part of the Islamic Ottoman empire, due to their religious conquests in the Medieval times. They enslaved and conquered us, ruling over our people and land for 5 centuries. It's incredibly difficult living in these circumstances nowadays, because Turkey is our neighbour and we have loads of different ethnic and religious minorities in the regions close to Turkey, who are strongly influenced by the foreign policies of Turkey and they are also used by Turkey to put pressure on us constantly and mess with our own internal affairs, which in effect also messes up with EU policies and affairs.

After the fall of the USSR, there was a lot of hope in the 90s that a society of all the types of ethnicities and religions can easily coexist peacefully, but the historical burdens are too heavy to ever be forgotten, for any side of the conversation. You can't tell our people to be tolerant to the fullest, whilst also somehow putting blame on us for the situation in the Middle East, when we've never had anything to do with the wars of the West for influence and natural resources (don't give me that "democracy" crap, please). A society like ours has suffered so much and when we are pointed out as being bigots for having justifiable fears of an extremist ideology that already had us in chains for 500 years, it truly creates proper hatred and even more "Islamophobia". Our people were massacred by the Ottomans "in the name of Islam", this is our history and our heritage. What kept our nation from being erased was our memory, cherishing the history, values and Christian traditions, so people need to understand that religious wars still exist to this day, they just happen and occur in a lot more subdued ways.
Within my country we've had religious peace since 1579, not always nice or entirely fair but peace, it took only three decades of a muslim community to have the first religious bloodshed. I tend to not see it as religious wars like religions fighting eachother, but muslims fighting religious wars, and other religions and seculars often together fighting ethnic wars or just simply wars. I don't believe there's any other religion left that tries to advance itself through war.

But contrary to Turks of the same colour, Bulgarians are classified as whites and race has become the agent of blame and victimhood and history has to step aside, or worse, be adapted to that narrative. Not that my country doesn't have a colonial past, but any colonial responsability for the state Africa is in is an extremely far stretch that ignores historic facts. Doesn't matter, people who's parents came as refugees from Africa without any colonial tie but where still welcome after passing 13 safe countries are now claiming reparations, just because they are black and the indigionous people tend to be white. The Berber and Turkish side with them without any reflection on their own imperialistic and slavetrading past. It's actually not how bad Europeans are, but how good they are, that has to be exploited.
 

Wolverine

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Literally not a single muslim I’ve ever encountered has heard of Taqqiya.

Read on wikipedia about its prominence more in Shias to hide their identity from persecution which is sort of done but mainly from not commemorating muharram openly. Without a label on it.
But its interpretation as Muslims presenting themselves as more moderate despite being secretly sinister radicals is entirely made out of anti-muslim animus.
Made without any proof by bigots and accepted by certain securalists who want it to be true.
 

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Literally not a single muslim I’ve ever encountered has heard of Taqqiya.

Read on wikipedia about its prominence more in Shias to hide their identity from persecution which is sort of done but mainly from not commemorating muharram openly.
But its interpretation as Muslims presenting themselves as more moderate despite being secretly sinister radicals is entirely made out of anti-muslim animus.
Made without any proof by bigots and accepted by certain securalists who want it to be true.
It was Robert Spencer who really popularized the accusation of taqiyya, he was at it from the mid-2000s, and soon enough like-minded people began using it casually. Before then it would have only really been discussed among academics specializing in Shi’i doctrines.