Accordingly is maybe a bad choice of words in that sentence. I'll concede that.
If we understand the root cause we can perhaps do things to reduce the likelihood of these atrocities occurring.
Terror attack in Vienna??
- Thread starter Blackwidow
- Start date
If we understand the root cause we can perhaps do things to reduce the likelihood of these atrocities occurring.
Absolutely horrific. I don't see incidents like this stopping in my life time though unfortunately.
you sound like a pleasant chap!
Yeh It’s all very frustrating, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way out of this.
Yes, I really can beyou sound like a pleasant chap!
Terrorists aren't usually deranged lunatics as far as I've read, but they often feel lost, dissatisfied and and deprived. Groups like ISIS prey on this and manipulate them into feeling like they belong and give meaning to their existence. Then set about convincing them to die for this. Are some deranged lunatics? Probably, you see deranged lunatics in many walks of life but most of these operators are followers. They aren't capable of committing atrocities in the absence of leadership.
Without apportioning any blame on the west for it, let's think about what can be done to make it so there are fewer of these followers to recruit, can things be improved by providing opportunity, fostering community and other rather innocuous means that are well within our abilities to provide?
Agree with this, like you say can’t rule out some are lunatics but they truly believe what they are doing is right. They’re almost certainly not mentally ill in any measurable way. It’s a toxic mix of gang like grooming and religious ideology that leads to this. Doubt anything can be solved if people just shrug it off as a bunch of mad people.
I completely agree, that was an error on my part. In fact, it’s reductive to consider them as nothing more than ‘deranged lunatics’, as it prevents any rational conversation about preventing radicalisation, particularly among the dissatisfied individuals you speak of. What I did mean to highlight though was that, to a degree, anyone that is so far radicalised that they actually commit these acts is in fact deranged and is probably beyond help by then. Still, agree with your correction and the rest of your post.
Vienna is a city very dear in my heart. A few of you will know I lived their last year. The people are the polar opposite of the Irish when it comes to gregariousness, but the exact same when it comes to caring for each other.
As the hours pass and it's looking like it was an Islamist attack, my thoughts also go out to the overwhelmingly secular Muslim community, who will in no doubt also face a backlash over the coming days and weeks.
One must also keep in their thoughts the countless anti fascist activists in and around Vienna fighting the spread of radical Islam, and all other authoritarian ideologies. As well as the obvious heroes in their front line staff.
As the hours pass and it's looking like it was an Islamist attack, my thoughts also go out to the overwhelmingly secular Muslim community, who will in no doubt also face a backlash over the coming days and weeks.
One must also keep in their thoughts the countless anti fascist activists in and around Vienna fighting the spread of radical Islam, and all other authoritarian ideologies. As well as the obvious heroes in their front line staff.
Good update there but it doesn’t say much about others, just one suspect.
I don't think they're going to say too much about someone they're probably still looking for. A police officer can correct me here if needed.
Sounds like it's most likely it was only one attacker. I hope so.
4 dead and 17 injured so far... Police still unsure if it was one or more attackers.
Isis are obsesed with bringing about the day of judgdement, the apocalypse and dying as martyrs. Don't make any excuses for these scumbags.
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The point isn't simply to kill people. It's absolutely to make headlines.
If you take this in context, it was (likely) 1 guy responsible for 4 tragic deaths. If instead of using a gun, the perpetrator had caught coronavirus, got a job as a waiter, swirled his finger in everybody's soup and quietly killed 5 people in the name of ISIS, it would have barely made a ripple in the news.
Sensationalism and division are at the heart of why terrorism is done.
If you take this in context, it was (likely) 1 guy responsible for 4 tragic deaths. If instead of using a gun, the perpetrator had caught coronavirus, got a job as a waiter, swirled his finger in everybody's soup and quietly killed 5 people in the name of ISIS, it would have barely made a ripple in the news.
Sensationalism and division are at the heart of why terrorism is done.
The one (very small) thing I'm quite impressed with Boris with so far is his reaction to this sort of attack. Rightly condemns the terrorist, offers condolences and support to Austria, but doesn't come out with the pathetic, David Cameron-esque tough-guy-behind-a-desk shit that Macron and the like have done. Doesn't seem absolutely desperate for attention in these sort of situations unlike almost every other Prime Minister I can remember.
It's funny how our mind works like that. The same people scoffing at the fact that Covid only kills like 0.0001% of the population go wild over these 4 deaths.
This is in no way, shape or form meant to downplay either of these, but the sensasianolist part of it is very true. With a terror attack it's very easy to put a face to the evil act whereas with Covid it's less tangible.
Anyway, the footage of this makes me fecking sick. It's terrible to see what evil we are capable of.
Disgusting act of violence. Terrible news.
This is probably not the best thread to post this to but it just somewhat dawned on me that Europe is full of ideologues in all shapes and sizes. You have 5G/anti-vax lunatics, alt-right idiots and literal neo-Nazis, Novara Media-type communists, radical secularists, various degrees of Islamists from the typical Muslim Brotherhood sympathiser all the way to full-on Isis wackos and the list goes on. What the region maybe lacks is fundamentalist evangelical Christians and right-wing libertarians to complete the full set of idiocy, such is the state.
I'm wondering why us in East and Southeast Asia tend to have moderate views on things. I'm not saying we don't have these types in this part of the world, but when compared to all the shite that are coming out of Europe (or rather the Western world in general) our problem with ideologues is relatively mild.
This is probably not the best thread to post this to but it just somewhat dawned on me that Europe is full of ideologues in all shapes and sizes. You have 5G/anti-vax lunatics, alt-right idiots and literal neo-Nazis, Novara Media-type communists, radical secularists, various degrees of Islamists from the typical Muslim Brotherhood sympathiser all the way to full-on Isis wackos and the list goes on. What the region maybe lacks is fundamentalist evangelical Christians and right-wing libertarians to complete the full set of idiocy, such is the state.
I'm wondering why us in East and Southeast Asia tend to have moderate views on things. I'm not saying we don't have these types in this part of the world, but when compared to all the shite that are coming out of Europe (or rather the Western world in general) our problem with ideologues is relatively mild.
The refugee crisis and terrorist attacks were like fertilizer for a lot of idiotic movements, the right wing idiots also found a global leader in Trump, the radical Muslim idiots found ISIS and Corona spurred some of the left wing idiots into action, too. Maybe Russian bots play their part as well.
In Germany the AFD highlights this quite well, initially founded in 2013, when the conservative CDU/CSU (Merkel) were the most right wing party present in parliament, they first presented themselves as eurosceptic business people and academics. Conservative, but more or less inside the established spectrum, as their main concern was the Euro and the money spent on Greece.
Then in 2015, when the refugee arrivals peaked, they elected a new leader and the old one (and party founder) quit together with most of their MEPs, citing a shift towards nationalism and pro russian sentiments that he didn't want to be part of and indeed the party has been constantly moving towards the right ever since.
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But why is that?Who can say what the motivation can be and while there can never be any justification, hate crime towards Muslims and particularly against Muslim women have risen in Austria.
Reported Islamophobic incidents in Austria rose to 540 last year.
Source - Documentation and Consultancy Centre for Islamophobia and Anti-Muslim Racism
Europe has made the decision to accept these attacks being a part of life, consciously or not, by losing control of who is coming in and what they are doing. For every x thousand people making the journey for genuine reasons, how many would you accept coming for nefarious purposes? There was always going to be some, and it's a question that was never asked and is a big part of why we are seeing the rise in Islamophobia and the far right all across the continent.
The UK does have right wing libertarians. It's basically what Nigel Farage is and there's a strong representation in the Tory party. On the right, at the political level, it's the ideology that drove Brexit. Immigration was weaponised to sell Brexit to the general public but what they actually care about is freeing Britain from the regulatory tentacles of the European Union. I think British libertarians the right wing equivalent of the woke left. They have a massively disproportionate voice in the media and weild significant political power but actually represent very few of the population at large.
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I wouldn't want to 'accept' any number but it is an age old question, I wouldn't want to accept that one day somehow we can't stop these people being recruited by people with hatred in their hearts, in the meantime how do you tell the difference and bar those coming for nefarious reasons? Should we give in to terrorists and change what we believe in, how we behave, what our standards are to bring refugees and immigrants into our countries?
I'd like to see the Islamopobia and anti-muslim racism definitions and splits. Obviously it's case dependent but it's been discussed in this thread that islamophobia in relation to some aspects of Islam is potentially justified. Racism is not.Who can say what the motivation can be and while there can never be any justification, hate crime towards Muslims and particularly against Muslim women have risen in Austria.
Reported Islamophobic incidents in Austria rose to 540 last year.
Source - Documentation and Consultancy Centre for Islamophobia and Anti-Muslim Racism
In addition and for all I know there could be other alleged reasons, supposedly there was a link between Austria and the mosque attacks in New Zealand.
Once again, to reiterate for the hard of understanding I do not believe there can ever be any justification for murder, attempted murder, wounding or terrorist attacks.
Are you suggesting that anyone a bit too tanned or with a funny name should be prevented from coming to Europe because they are a potential terrorist?
That's nice, if you find any let us all know.
A fairly simple definition of Islamophobia is a 'dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.' I'm very uncomfortable myself deciding that some prejudices are ok to have.
Edit. These graphs are summaries of Hate Crimes against muslim people. My skin starts to crawl when people are trying to say that some hate crimes will be justified,
No we should not, but they will not change either, so as long as we all live in one place we must accept that these attacks will be a regular thing. We're long past the capacity of intelligence services to track everybody. Numbers of attacks are up over the last few years and whilst we have gotten better at detecting larger plots, more people are moving towards acting alone.
Not at all. But we should know who they are and where they are, just as we do anybody else.
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Have the ‘strongly condemn’ platitudes been trotted out yet?
Hate crimes aren't justified.
I've mentioned before how I find the Islamophobia term a bit difficult, because it implies someone is being racist, when there's plenty of rational things to dislike about Islam. I don't think that's controversial. What's controversial is when people start hating on individual muslims who just so happen to have had the bad luck to grow up under that ideology.
More than once.
And of course the attacker killed had relevant criminal record. Was prevented from joining IS in Syria, went to jail for a year, came out and did this a year later. Our criminal law needs to be reviewed and changed.
What put him in jail?
‘Strongly condemn’ sure does have a ‘thoughts & prayers’ ring to it.
I really didn't want to contribute to the derailing of the thread, but what the feck.
What is that supposed to mean? We know as much who they are as we do for anybody else.
That seems to be a similar cv for a lot of these creeps. It’s a really tough one. You can’t lock them up indefinitely and there’s a good chance that the stint on prison only radicalises them even further (as well as giving them a chance to radicalise others)
No we don't. Many of them arrive without documentation and it's incredibly easy for them disappear from the system if they want to.
I guess they just really love increased Islamaphobia, further implementation of tyrannical laws and more bombing of their home lands in the Middle East.
It all makes perfect sense.
Those are illegals which is a totally different scenario to the one you described since you made the claim that. No one has ever had control of who does illegal things, it's something that you know after the facts.
based on this post the attacker had a criminal record. You should be able to deport anyone once time is served if they have came in from another country.
Same goes for a brit going to spain
Which is irrelevant to the point made which was about people coming in. Also people in Europe are deported every day just for being illegally on the territory, people are also deported after felonies and crimes committed in Europe.
It's unbelievable how many attackers were known extremists and at times even served sentences for it. If the government doesn't have the resources to monitor those people, there has to be laws that allow to put them in jail as long as they remain a threat.