There is. Becuase Ole gets clubbed with top class managers becuase he's Ole and no other reason. Time AND talent is required. Big Sam won't have us hitting 90 points if he's given 20 years in charge.
The “Ole In” Brigade
- Thread starter Lentwood
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It was a mess before they got Kante to help Matic out. They almost had no options for that defensive role.
I am not counting the wingers as midfielders so them having Hazard is not making it a good midfield.
We had Fred, Pogba, Mctominay, Pogba as midfielders so it is certainly better than what they had. We lack a good 10 just like they did, but
have not managed to sort it out with a different formation, signings or tactics.
Conte sorted the midfield eventually out by getting Kante and playing with a 5 man defense using Moses as a wingback. Thus they only needed two midfielders and got better protection.
We also had a better defense than them before they did bring in players. Maybe not better keeper based on the last years, but if De Gea can find form he is at the same level as Courtois.
They had a better attack no doubt with Hazard, Costa and Willian/Pedro. Although given how problematic Costa has been I do think only a good manager would have been able to sort him out. We had Lukaku and he forced his way out pretty much.
People keep saying Ole is inexperienced yet he has more experience of managing man utd than any other manager around except Mourinho and LVG
If a 45 year old Fergie had took over after Mourinho everybody would have been calling for his head, if it had have panned out like it did 86-90. I dont know if Ole is the answer im 60/40 against at the moment, but lets see who he gets in in January, if anyone, and more importantly who comes and goes in the summer.
If you cannot see the difference in our average player's ability in regards to passing and handling the ball compared to Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Wolverhampton, Leicester etc in the EPL... Just watch a match and see how their passing is more efficient and accurate compared to our simple passing.
The players coming into our first team, like Greenwood, Laird, Garner, Levitt, Gomez, Williams, etc all seem to be at the technical level needed to play a more possession-oriented football. So, it is not an issue with how they train in the academy. I think it is both a coaching and recruitment issue.
I would rather win a majority of the 75% of the games (against the weaker teams) during a season than winning a majority of the games against the good teams and struggling against the weaker teams. Our current set up with a big reliance on counter-attacking football is not a sustainable approach against most of the teams in the league. There are less counter-attacking opportunities per game each year, teams are more cynical in stopping counter-attacks (learning from City) and being able to systematically outplay teams that sit deep is arguably the best approach to be competitive long term (Bayern, Barca, PSG, City and Liverpool)... We have gone in the complete opposite direction with more players mainly suited to play off the ball and rely on space to utilize their abilities.
OGS seems to be fixing an important issue and that is the culture or mentality within the squad. Molde over the years have developed a good culture/mentality (if this can be quantified) within the club, and this is the one thing OGS is able to and currently doing, and should replicate from the SAF years.
Just basing my observations on the developments in football over the years... Fewer counter-attacking situations, best teams in the world are technically superb, compared to previous teams that could win simply by defending, effort and pragmatic tactics...
Top football has gone from "conceding one less than the opponent" to "scoring one more"...
x years ago: Defending>=Attacking --> best approach to winning.
Now: Defending << Attacking --> best approach to winning.
Some nuances, but in general I think this is a fair assessment.
So you think that I chose the name Fosu-Mens to be serious? I expected a more nuanced understanding of the intricacies regarding the process of choosing a name, poster named Wumminator.
I absolutely can see a difference in how United play in possession vs other top teams. There is an element of coaching in that but it's not the biggest factor. I think you are correct when you mention the technical quality but incorrect when you equate that to the coaching staff and Ole in particular.
The United midfield really lacks quality. That is obviously a far bigger issue when trying to break down a massed defence than hitting teams on the counter attack. That technical quality can be refined at senior level but most players will have developed that techique long before they hit senior football.
Ignoring Pogba (who has missed most of the season), Fred is United's best midfield player in a creative sense. 2 of McTominay, Pereira, Lingard and Mata will generally be the other 2 members of that midfield 3. Mata is a good technician (and little else) but there's not much technical quality in the other 3.
United also has 2 starting full backs who are defensive specialists and contribute nothing offensively.
In short, the squad lacks quality, especially in midfield. There should be no surprise there. United lost 7 members of the first team squad and brought in 3. That was from a base last season where injuries necessitated a change in style due to not enough players outside of the first 11 being able to play the preferred style of play.
If Ole can establish a strong culture (personally I don't think he will without more experienced players), that is just step 1. The next step has to be to add players of the required quality but also the right character. Can they do that with the current recruitment set up? Time will tell.
But, I don't think anyone at the club thought at the start of the season that they had a squad capable of competing. They lost their best defender, most consistent midfield player and their 2 massive money marquee forwards and only bought 2 defenders and a young winger while placing faith in the academy.
When you remove offensive quality for the sake of the club culture and replace it with inexperienced kids, you can expect less quality and more inconsistency.
Don't forget that De Gea played like a man possessed that season, turning some potential losses into drawas and some potential draws into wins.
I don't think OGS and the coaching staff has improved this at all, but our squad's lack of technical quality is more on Mourinho and his approach to football over 2,5 years. Our transfers since OGS became manager is what can be put on him --> Not getting technical able midfielders during the summer.
Still, my main point is that to be successful at the highest level you need an emphasis on technical ability and some variant of high press + possession... Our team is no closer to be suited to play this type of football compared to 12 months ago.
Not fair. The manager asks for players and it is up to the club's negotiator's to get them.
Mourinhou was vocal about this, OGS is diplomatic, the end result is the same.
So OGS did not want AWB or Maguire?
I assume he already knew how inept the people involved with transfers at the club was... Adapt to the situation.
Take an active role in it. With all the talk about a rebuild, why not try to fix some of the issues above him as well. And he has stated that he is the one deciding the targets.
I'm not saying that he is the only one at fault, but he is not without some responsibility either.
Yes, he did - James, too and they have been good additions to the team. I am sure he would also have wanted a striker to replace Lukaku and a midfielder to replace Ander, but he didn't get those.
You don't get everything you want in life, but you shouldn't be held to account for responsibilities that are not yours, either.
Fixing things upwards is highly unlikely to be within his influence - I can't say definitely, as I have no insider knowledge of Utd, but it never worked that way when I was a middle manager in a Plc.
It's very amusing to me how much people seem to overrate the influence a manager can have on the results of a football team. It's not rational at all to act like one single person is such an all determining factor for the results of a football team. Over the course of a season, a PL coach maybe influences 5-10% of the results with his decisions. Meaning the other 90-95% of the results are down to other factors, mostly the quality and fitness of the players in the squad.
Clubs and directors who appoint managers know this by the way. They know in the end a manager hasn't got that much influence on results, they also know there's a good chance that a manager can have a bigger impact if he's given the time to plan for the future, even more so if he's given at least five years or so, and they know this concept would be a good thing for their club in the long run. So why don't they do what's good for the results of their club in the long run?
Because of the pressure put on them by irrational people and the fear of losing short term profits. A manager at a football club isn't actually a manager who's brought in to improve the club over a longer period of time. A manager gets paid a fortune to be a sacrificial lamb that can be slaughtered to relieve pressure after a bad run of games, and the merry-go round is just a quick little trick to keep the masses happy.
In reality though, it's the quality of the players that's by far the most important factor of success for football clubs. Whether Solskjaer is a good coach I don't know. He seems to fit the club nicely. I've also seen supposed world class managers like Van Gaal or Mourinho or PL proven guys like Moyes come up with worse shite than I've ever seen from Solskjaer so far.
Maybe it's better to replace him with someone else though, just in case, so at least we can optimize that marginal but signficant 5-10% influence a manager can have on a team. One thing I can tell you for sure though, we need much better players on top of that. Just think about some of our squads of the past, this current team is nowhere near the individual quality our 2013 vintage SAF team, neither does it have the cohesion.
With 15 million pounds on Daniel James as our only investment in attacking quality in recent times, we might actually spend more on exit fees for Mourinho and Solskjaer in the meanwhile. Maybe just think about that for a second before blaming it all on the manager.
Clubs and directors who appoint managers know this by the way. They know in the end a manager hasn't got that much influence on results, they also know there's a good chance that a manager can have a bigger impact if he's given the time to plan for the future, even more so if he's given at least five years or so, and they know this concept would be a good thing for their club in the long run. So why don't they do what's good for the results of their club in the long run?
Because of the pressure put on them by irrational people and the fear of losing short term profits. A manager at a football club isn't actually a manager who's brought in to improve the club over a longer period of time. A manager gets paid a fortune to be a sacrificial lamb that can be slaughtered to relieve pressure after a bad run of games, and the merry-go round is just a quick little trick to keep the masses happy.
In reality though, it's the quality of the players that's by far the most important factor of success for football clubs. Whether Solskjaer is a good coach I don't know. He seems to fit the club nicely. I've also seen supposed world class managers like Van Gaal or Mourinho or PL proven guys like Moyes come up with worse shite than I've ever seen from Solskjaer so far.
Maybe it's better to replace him with someone else though, just in case, so at least we can optimize that marginal but signficant 5-10% influence a manager can have on a team. One thing I can tell you for sure though, we need much better players on top of that. Just think about some of our squads of the past, this current team is nowhere near the individual quality our 2013 vintage SAF team, neither does it have the cohesion.
With 15 million pounds on Daniel James as our only investment in attacking quality in recent times, we might actually spend more on exit fees for Mourinho and Solskjaer in the meanwhile. Maybe just think about that for a second before blaming it all on the manager.
What a load of nonsense. A good manager knows how to plan the way the team plays. Yes if both the teams play equally well and luck determines an outcome then the manager has no say. It does not happen to us. We are usually the lucky side when winning the games. We lost today because Ole Gunnar has not idea what was going on the pitch. Arsenal had much better tactics than us. That included the corner we conceded.
We had Anderson and Cleverly in midfield playing against top opposition and winning. It is all about coaching. A good coach will get the best out of his players. It is not as if we are getting beaten by the top teams. We are getting beaten by teams who are much smaller than us. The only way he knows is to counter attack. He said we had two or three counter attacks going. It is not our attacking play that is the concern but our defence and how we concede goals. We have no other tactics apart from counter attacking football. That is the sign that the manager has not clue about coaching a top football team.
Maybe we should do a social experiment and get rid of all the managers in the prem. I wonder if Liverpool would still be top I wonder who will identify the style of play, pick the team and sort our the punctuality.
But yes it’s only 5%
Wow. Just...wow. So manager is irrelevant? No mate, manager is 50% of the team and most important person in club. Good manager will make team better, make players better, win games, have playing pattern, play good football, outsmart oppo manager with good choice of formation and lineup, buy good players, recognise what players are good and have potential and what players don't, good manager will make good moves during the game, manager is responsible for motivation, morale, etc...
That is why some managers have success everywhere, some are coaching midtable clubs and some in division 2.
This is possibly the biggest load of nonsense ive ever read on here. Let that sink in
May I add to this? A good example was our match in the EL Final against Ajax. Everyone before the game talked about how we would struggle to deal with the Ajax midfield. With one stroke Jose took that out with Fellaini and the high balls on to his chest bypassing the Ajax midfield. They never had a sniff.
What a load of nonsense. This is top level team sports, every single player is supremely talented to even reach that standard. The difference is getting the best out of team and forming a team which makes the difference. Which is why teams fortunes swing wildly depending on whether they land on a good coach or not. This is clearly more visible amongst mid table teams where there is more parity in the quality of players, the teams with the better managers fair better more consistently and those that don't struggle.
We're leaking goals too with 120m addition on defence. Or that's got nothing to do with ole?
Shhhh, that season was shit i heard. Only two trophies. Ole could have do it also
I wanted Jose gone too in the end as he became too toxic. But lets not take away the facts that he has won the CL twice and won everything at club level in every country he has managed. I am a bit surprised his start at Spurs but I guess and everyone who knows him will accept that Spurs right now is not a Jose team.
Coming back to the shenanigans at United now in hindsight would it have been better to sell Pogba and bring in a new player that Jose wanted?
Actually, what you are saying is utter nonsense. All EPL players are most certainly not good-enough quality for success. Mourinho is one of the most successful coaches in the world but he failed at United and he will likely fail at Spurs as well, because in both cases he didn't have the players he needed. Whether it was also partly his fault, the fact remains that you cannot just coach any group of EPL players to success. Same for Manuel Pellegrini and Unai Emery, who are both top coaches in their own right. For the same reason, clubs like Everton and West Ham have had no trophies and probably won't have until they start buying much more expensive players.
Success is a combination of:
1. Better players
2. Better manager + staff
3. Better club organization
You take any one of those things out and things start falling apart. Arguing that any one of the ingredients can alone bring success is nonsensical.
We have been playing without him all season, pretty much and will likely not have him for a while, so the reality is - we don't have him, we just pay his salary. That's just a reality.
I think that too but i gave up from that topic. People judge Jose by his third season and he is Voldemort for most of Caf so.....
But yeah, after his second season board fecked up and then Jose lost his mind
Get poch off dole que
Not sure where I said anywhere that there is one single contributing factor to success? There very obviously isn't.
My argument was that a good coach can change a teams fortunes dramatically as evidenced by teams like Sheffield United for example.
It's amusing to me how much people seem to underrate the influence a manager can have on the results of a football team just because They like the person. It's not rational at all to act like We didn't know who Sir Alex was, his achievements at the club and the impact of his successors.
90-95% of the results are down to other factors, mostly the quality, fitness of the players and TACTICAL decisions. You keep moaning about quality of the players but a manager is also the person who can decide to sell or buy players at United. Hypocrisy #1.
Also, if it's true that if managers only count for 5% of our performances, then Why did We sack three of them after Sir Alex already? the club is still trying to find the correct person for the job, We all know about this. I bet you never said such idiotic things like "Managers only influence 5% ..." for the previous 3 managers before Ole? Hypocrisy #2.
You then mentioned the previous managers by blaming them. Yes, even you did it yourself. A person gets criticized for the result of their jobs first and foremost, unless if there's a significant improvement in the 'process' regardless of the end results. So far, when you compare Van Gaal, Mou and Ole, there haven't been a lot of improvement in the process either. Which should include our tactical decisions to win matches, play style and transfer strategy. Just because Ole isn't a "proven manager" doesn't mean you can excuse him more. Hypocrisy #3.
That's cute for someone who somehow got this otherworldly conclusion that a manager can only influence a team by 5-10%. When you're not even sure what you're talking about. This time it's not Hypocrisy, just a baseless, stupid statement, helped by rose tinted googles.
Hint : Look at Liverpool and Klopp.
You said "This is top level team sports, every single player is supremely talented to even reach that standard. " implying that pretty much anybody playing in EPL is good enough. Which is what I disagree with.
As for Sheffield United. How do you know that their good fortunes is all about Chris Wilder? I don't know any such thing. Maybe they have an amazing scouting organization, or fitness or analysis staff? Maybe he is just asked to deliver on realistic goals (top half of the league) and that helps him achieve goals suitable to the team he has, versus Mourinho thought he had to win the league? Chris Wilder is not some genius coach. Definitely not anything at Mourinho level or even Poch level.
Yes, of course good coach improves the team he's got, but that coin has a flip side – if you don't have a team you need, even best coaches will fail.
What do you think Pep would have achieved this season if he had our current squad. The verbatim one?
From seeing his play at Barca and how he has coached with this team, he would get us to play in a different way. He is not going to win the league but he is not going to play Lingard and Shaw for sure. I do not think he would have sold off Smalling and bought Maguire. I would say he would have a quality midfield player instead of Matic. Push Martial and Rashford up front. Get Pogab on top of the diamond and play Fred and Scott in midfield with a new defensive midfield player who can control the game. He needs quick CBs. which we do not have and he is suffering now because he is injured. His theory( not really his but Cruijff) is that if you have one option then it can be blocked. If you have two it is more difficult but still can be stopped but if you have three then it is not possible. That is the way he plays in a diamond. City play the diamond the way Cruijff got Pep to play. Yes he has tweaked it but the basics are the same. Sometimes you have to try other means to see how things work. Lingard has shown it does not work with him playing in that position. The three up front is also not working as we are getting ripped apart.
Honestly I will play Jones in midfield. People are going to get up in arms but he has to be given one job and that is be a destructive force. He is not a bad a player as people make him out to be. He is strong and fearless and has decent pace and also can dribble a bit and head and tackle a bit. He is prone to make errors in defence and in midfield would be not so crucial if he makes a mistake. Other teams are not going to go through our midfield like a knife through butter.
Good post, thank you.
Interesting idea about Jones in midfield. I must admit I am very biased against Jones, at this point and don't want to see him anywhere near Old Trafford. But I had the same feeling about Lindelof, at least before the total feck up today. But if we ignore today, given that he seems to be OK on the ball, has had some stretch of reliable defensive work, but isn't really a great CB, maybe Lindelof can move up as a DMF, and we could play Tuanzebe in his position instead.
The hope is that he can at least do better than Matic. And realistically we are not getting a DMF anytime soon. We are lucky if we get a #10 / playmaker, instead.
I'm tired of this bullshit argument. Ole will never be SAF.
I have not seen enough of Tuanzabe to make up my mind. I would not have sold Smalling because of the reason of a DM. I also feel that in these circumstances Lindelof may be an option in midfield. If you never try in a match situation then you never know. He may turn out to be a good DM. He has the attributes to be one for sure. He is also much quicker than Matic. His passing is also good and he wont be one v one under pressure in midfield like in defence.
.By losing games constantly and not managing to tie a run of wins together? He is doing the exact opposite of what you are saying.
SAF is the greatest manager in EPL history. Comparing most managers to him is a joke. Expecting Ole to be next SAF is a joke. We just need Ole to steady the ship and get us to long-term improvement where we are consistently top-4 team, at least fighting for the league title in 2-3 years. Because right now we are simply horrible.
Yeah, would love to see him play as a DM, even if in FA cup game or something. Technically, Smalling is not sold he is on loan, but he had his share of feck-ups. Maybe it was caused by being surrounded by mediocrity, I don't know. How is he doing in Roma?
Classic. Lose a game, insults everywhere.
Win a game, praises all over.
Never change, CAF.
Win a game, praises all over.
Never change, CAF.
Bullshit. How can you come with that tripe and be a Manchester United fan? We have won a PL title with Anderson and Cleverley midfield under SAF.
Also did Liverpool or City play 90% of what they do now under the previous managers?
He is not steadying the ship. He is going down with it. This is the problem. The Ole in Brigade will be playing You are my Solskjaer while the ship goes down taking all us with it.
Maybe. I like some things he's done and am very worried by others, but that's beside the point since I was just saying what is even the goal for him, actual job performance being a whole separate thing. I would be shocked if anybody seriously expected or expects him to be anything like SAF, if that is even possible, anymore.