The “Ole In” Brigade

Roboc7

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So Liverpool were were elite when they signed VVD, Mane, Roberston, Salah?

So in your opinon who should we get as manager?

Maguire joined because he has been sold a rebuild - a rebuild that takes a few seasons not something that happens overnight.

Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards.
Not the best comparison you’ve made there. Three of those players joined a team in the Champions League, a team that we’re progressing and managed by one of top managers in Europe. See the difference?.

Maguire didn’t join to finish below Leicester and watch them in the Champions League next season. Utd finished six last year not far off top four, things were supposedly getting better not worse.
 

sammsky1

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Not the best comparison you’ve made there. Three of those players joined a team in the Champions League, a team that we’re progressing and managed by one of top managers in Europe. See the difference?.

Maguire didn’t join to finish below Leicester and watch them in the Champions League next season. Utd finished six last year not far off top four, things were supposedly getting better not worse.
And yet he still joined, despite a 'nobody' manager. Kind of defeats our own argument.
 

romufc

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Not the best comparison you’ve made there. Three of those players joined a team in the Champions League, a team that we’re progressing and managed by one of top managers in Europe. See the difference?.

Maguire didn’t join to finish below Leicester and watch them in the Champions League next season. Utd finished six last year not far off top four, things were supposedly getting better not worse.
So now you are changing the goal post? I guess Leicester will attract Sancho and the liked next season because they are a progressing team in CL and managed by a decent manager?

Players come to join something, they are sold a plan. If Sancho is sold a plan that he will be the main man along with the ones we have and ones we sign, who is to say he wont want to join?

I might be wrong, but we managed to attract Bruno as well.
 

MoskvaRed

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So Liverpool were were elite when they signed VVD, Mane, Roberston, Salah?

So in your opinon who should we get as manager?

Maguire joined because he has been sold a rebuild - a rebuild that takes a few seasons not something that happens overnight.

Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards.
We heard similar excuses made for Moyes and Van Gaal and it turned out that we only had a reverse gear. Can you think of many examples (without mentioning you know who) of a worsening of results for a sustained period followed by a new dawn? I generally see new managers at ambitious clubs either achieving noticeable improvements in a short space of time (recent example include Rodgers, Conte and Ancelotti) or getting the boot.
 

Rafaeldagold

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With Ed's quotes today i just have a horrible feeling we're going to stick with him in the summer and watch other, far better managers, go elsewhere and do nothing. Hope I'm wrong.
Of course we’ll do exactly that. We’re never pro active anymore with decisions
 

Roboc7

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So Liverpool were were elite when they signed VVD, Mane, Roberston, Salah?

So in your opinon who should we get as manager?

Maguire joined because he has been sold a rebuild - a rebuild that takes a few seasons not something that happens overnight.

Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards.
So now you are changing the goal post? I guess Leicester will attract Sancho and the liked next season because they are a progressing team in CL and managed by a decent manager?

Players come to join something, they are sold a plan. If Sancho is sold a plan that he will be the main man along with the ones we have and ones we sign, who is to say he wont want to join?

I might be wrong, but we managed to attract Bruno as well.
No idea what saying about Sancho and Leicester, just pointing out Maguire has gone backwards, I doubt he was sold that.

How am I moving the goalposts, it’s not even a criticism of Ole it’s just the reality of the situation. Liverpool had Klopp, Champions League football and progress to offer those three players. Like I said it backs up what you are trying to sell, that team is going places, that manager is going somewhere and progress is being made.

We won’t be in Champions League, don’t have a highly regarded manager, looking at lowest ever Premier League points tally, possibly lowest finish, it’s not really a comparison.

It’s all about credibility, we have very little with Ole in charge, our three year plan is comical if try to pretend it’s all going well. If your ambitious your less likely to join Utd than you were a year ago.
 

romufc

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We heard similar excuses made for Moyes and Van Gaal and it turned out that we only had a reverse gear. Can you think of many examples (without mentioning you know who) of a worsening of results for a sustained period followed by a new dawn? I generally see new managers at ambitious clubs either achieving noticeable improvements in a short space of time (recent example include Rodgers, Conte and Ancelotti) or getting the boot.
Liverpool, City all had weak seasons prior to building something.

Both Pep and Klopp had worse results and then followed by a new dawn.
 

Gehrman

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Liverpool, City all had weak seasons prior to building something.

Both Pep and Klopp had worse results and then followed by a new dawn.
Pep and Klopp did not have worse results than us while they were in charge.
 

Water Melon

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With Ed's quotes today i just have a horrible feeling we're going to stick with him in the summer and watch other, far better managers, go elsewhere and do nothing. Hope I'm wrong.
Can anyone post Ed's quotes, please.
 

romufc

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No idea what saying about Sancho and Leicester, just pointing out Maguire has gone backwards, I doubt he was sold that.

How am I moving the goalposts, it’s not even a criticism of Ole it’s just the reality of the situation. Liverpool had Klopp, Champions League football and progress to offer those three players. Like I said it backs up what you are trying to sell, that team is going places, that manager is going somewhere and progress is being made.

We won’t be in Champions League, don’t have a highly regarded manager, looking at lowest ever Premier League points tally, possibly lowest finish, it’s not really a comparison.

It’s all about credibility, we have very little with Ole in charge, our three year plan is comical if try to pretend it’s all going well. If your ambitious your less likely to join Utd than you were a year ago.
On your logic, Leicester should be able to attract Sancho? he would see Leicester a better project than United cause they are improving, have CL next season?

But Maguire knew who the manager of the club is, so did Bruno and they signed.

Rashford knew who the manager is before he signed a new contract as well.
 

Roboc7

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On your logic, Leicester should be able to attract Sancho? he would see Leicester a better project than United cause they are improving, have CL next season?

But Maguire knew who the manager of the club is, so did Bruno and they signed.

Rashford knew who the manager is before he signed a new contract as well.

Not my logic at all that’s how your twisting it to try and seem like you have an argument, Leicester wouldn’t even be trying to sign Sancho so totally pointless. I only mentioned Leicester in relation to Maguire as I don’t believe he joined to finish below them and watch them play in Champions League. But they will absolutely be more attractive to players than a year ago or do you not believe that? If so why?. Will players be put off by Champions League football, rather be in Europa or even better no European football at all.

I’m only saying what anyone should be able to happily admit, if we had a better manager, champions League football, evidence of progress that makes it easier to attract players. By basically doing the opposite of that it gets harder, i know you like to pretend Klopp and Pep were in same boat but the truth wherever you realise it or not is they weren’t.

A year ago we had a three year plan to win league, now it’s a two year plan from worse position than a year ago (and worst ever position since Premier League started).
 

Water Melon

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Thanks, mate. It looks like Ed is expecting us to finish in top 4, taking into account the vast amounts spent since Ole's arrival. If we finish outside of CL places, we will have a new manager come summer imho.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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Can't be real. Talking about no shortage in investments sounds like we are not going to go big this summer either :(.
Probably true, but would he talk towards that way already.
Sounds like he might keep Ole with little investment and hope it magically works.
 

romufc

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Not my logic at all that’s how your twisting it to try and seem like you have an argument, Leicester wouldn’t even be trying to sign Sancho so totally pointless. I only mentioned Leicester in relation to Maguire as I don’t believe he joined to finish below them and watch them play in Champions League. But they will absolutely be more attractive to players than a year ago or do you not believe that? If so why?. Will players be put off by Champions League football, rather be in Europa or even better no European football at all.

I’m only saying what anyone should be able to happily admit, if we had a better manager, champions League football, evidence of progress that makes it easier to attract players. By basically doing the opposite of that it gets harder, i know you like to pretend Klopp and Pep were in same boat but the truth wherever you realise it or not is they weren’t.

A year ago we had a three year plan to win league, now it’s a two year plan from worse position than a year ago (and worst ever position since Premier League started).
I totally agree with you that without CL football we will struggle to sign players. This is why the next few months are important.

If we do not see any improvement, there is no chance Ole will do anything better than he has done.

If we have a purple patch then there is a chance we sign someone decent

Pep and Klopp were similar but they both had a style of play and kept with it, Ole changes his style of play, meaning he doesnt trust his style or hasn't got him.
 

Judas

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It's disgusting we're in the situation where in many ways we'd be better off nose diving down the table than limping to a pathetic top 6 finish. How has it been allowed to come to this.
 

Water Melon

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Can't be real. Talking about no shortage in investments sounds like we are not going to go big this summer either :(.
Probably true, but would he talk towards that way already.
Sounds like he might keep Ole with little investment and hope it magically works.
I do believe that our average net spent is limited at around 100 million quid a year. I doubt we will buy more than 2 proven and established players if there are no major departures.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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I do believe that our average net spent is limited at around 100 million quid a year. I doubt we will buy more than 2 proven and established players if there are no major departures.
That sounds very depressing. A good manager could do a lot with little, but not sure we will get one.
We have the money, but also parasite owners.
 

Ander herrera the warrior

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A serious question to everyone, when was the last time a manager did very well in recruitment but failed to get good results and eventually got sacked?

Because I can't remember any manager who did as well as Ole in the transfer market, I feel all his 4 signings have been excellent although it's too early to tell. He even used the previous managers signing Lindelof and Fred very well.

With Jose, he complained about his own signing Henrikh Mkhitaryan very early into the transfer, even Fred. Eventually he complained about Pogba and even after signing Lindelof, didn't use him as much as Ole did this year.
 

Water Melon

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That sounds very depressing. A good manager could do a lot with little, but not sure we will get one.
We have the money, but also parasite owners.
We are in for a serious storm and I doubt we have a proper captain and crew to navigate through it. We are reaching new lows after SAF's departure. What a time to be alive... for noisy neighbours and scousers.
 

sunama

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Can try to put spin on it but the team is going backwards and has a manager with no reputation at this level, that’s not helping club move forward.
I would argue that we are not a club which wants to move forward (at the financial cost it would takes).

Why do I say this?
Jose wanted to go for the title and expected another cash injection in the Summer 2018 window, after getting 2nd place. Woodward (in his actions), told him that 2nd place was good enough and that he wouldn't get the players he wanted, but that the squad he had was good enough (for top 4). The problem was that Jose was not satisfied with top 4, so he engineered a way to get himself fired.

If our club had the ambition, we could turn our current situation around in less than 2 years, but I just don't see the will to do this. Even fans are accepting poor results for several years, with the excuse of "we are rebuilding".
While we lack ambition, the next 2-3 years could see us finish 4th-7th place, after which we will turn to another manager.
 

Cloud7

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But for injuries we would most likely be in the top 4 now and while the squad would definitely benefit from strengthening you only have to look at the reactions on here when actual available names are mentioned.
Patience is required. This is the correct strategy.
This is blatantly untrue. There have been periods where we had everyone available and we looked awful.
 

Roboc7

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I totally agree with you that without CL football we will struggle to sign players. This is why the next few months are important.

If we do not see any improvement, there is no chance Ole will do anything better than he has done.

If we have a purple patch then there is a chance we sign someone decent

Pep and Klopp were similar but they both had a style of play and kept with it, Ole changes his style of play, meaning he doesnt trust his style or hasn't got him.
It’s not just the Champions League football, it’s the manager, Woodward, how team has performed this season, how we’ve performed last 7 in comparison to every other one.

If someone was reluctant to sign for us last season they are going to be even more reluctant now. It’s ok saying wait for right player but that player doesn’t necessarily wait for us. There has to be a balance between not panic buying and not allowing team to go backward or even stand still.

I don’t think there are many Utd fans who would believe Ole if he said he’s going to win league in two years, I doubt any players would.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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We are in for a serious storm and I doubt we have a proper captain and crew to navigate through it. We are reaching new lows after SAF's departure. What a time to be alive... for noisy neighbours and scousers.
I think we still got a decent core around in a thin squad, but I fear it will be destroyed soon.
Another Ole window with budget players feels like a disaster one.
Ighalo, King, Rice sounds like what he might do or something like that.

I fear we are destroying Rashfords talent by playing him with injuries making it worse, not coaching him proberly and also mentally taking him down.
The last part hopefully not because Rashford is a fighter who never gives up at the core. Proper United player, but he needs a proper United manager.
Under SAF I think he could be world class forward up there with Rooney and Ronaldo after some good coaching.
Hopefully Ole is not insanly stupid to rush him back only for him to get injured again.
 

Stig

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I asked in the Newbies forum but I will ask here as well.
What are realistic expectations for MUFC? I would suggest that the SAF period exceed, by a good margin, reasonable expectations. Granted we have huge financial resources so should have higher expectations than say Burnley. But what is reasonable?

General top 6 finish challenging and making top 4 with some level of frequency ? Challenging for the title ever few years ?
A decent cup run and maybe even victory every decade ?

We aren't the only team with money and ambition and only one team wins the league and the cup etc.

So what are reasonable expectations ? When we have set those we can judge the manger.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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I asked in the Newbies forum but I will ask here as well.
What are realistic expectations for MUFC? I would suggest that the SAF period exceed, by a good margin, reasonable expectations. Granted we have huge financial resources so should have higher expectations than say Burnley. But what is reasonable?

General top 6 finish challenging and making top 4 with some level of frequency ? Challenging for the title ever few years ?
A decent cup run and maybe even victory every decade ?

We aren't the only team with money and ambition and only one team wins the league and the cup etc.

So what are reasonable expectations ? When we have set those we can judge the manger.
We are Manchester United. If the bar for the PL title is going to be raised to 100 points by our rivals, the expectations are to create a side able to gain 101 points by the end of the season.

Can this be achieved with a snap of the fingers? It most certainly can't. What can happen within a short period of time though is us looking like a team that's going places. A team that can actually become a serious contender.

That's why the comparisons with Klopp are daft. Liverpool looked like a team with a high ceiling under the German from the beginning. They didn't have the much-desired consistency, they lacked a few crucial pieces to their puzzle and Klopp also had to improve alongside his side but the blueprint was there. At first, they could keep up their title-winning form for the first half of the season. Then it was the bad start to their second season which hindered any possible title aspirations but for 2/3 of the season (week 10 to week 34) their record was 17-6-2. They also reached the CL final by scoring 41(!) goals in 13 games. It took time but there were reasons for them to be positive. It wasn't just empty words and dreams of reliving the Boot Room days.
 
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JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo

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To be in the title hunt most years.

To be a top CL club.

But that is obvious, why does it need to be posted?
We should only expect the occasional blip, the occassional transition year. Even then a transitional year should probably be a 4th place finish.

I dont even think its lofty to expect to be a perennial Champions League contender. We accrue way too much wealth to be sitting in 8th and be happy about it.
 

Shark

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This is blatantly untrue. There have been periods where we had everyone available and we looked awful.
Yep, this total myth needs to die, fast. Basically since we got knocked out to Barca last season, after fluking it against PSG, the football has been largely awful regardless of who’s been on the pitch. The side that lost 0-2 to Cardiff on the final day, had Pogba playing as well most of the rest of our key players.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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I think our expectations should be to aim for the top and try to win titles.
We are not a small side that should be happy with participation in Europe nor with just staying in the league.
I personally like ambitions even from smaller clubs. Leicester good example.
Even Wigan won the cup and went down, but they made history.

Playing safe and boring with the aim to earn as much money as possible suits the owners.
I hate that and we are not even doing that well since their aim is CL football and not much more. If we win titles we will earn money that way anyhow.
 

Mingus

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This is blatantly untrue. There have been periods where we had everyone available and we looked awful.
And yet our record against the top teams is very good this season. Ole must himself be a good coach to do well against the top coaches with such a thin squad.
Our problem, for a long time, has been against teams that defend deep due to not having enough creativity with Pogba missing and now Rashford injured.
It will be interesting to see how we do against these teams with Bruno playing and we can only hope that Ighalo will provide something up front given Martial's lack of dynamism.
 

C'est Moi Cantona

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Bailly = Flop, but can turn it around.
Mkhitaryan = Flop.
Ibrahimovic = Great signing, even if it was only for the short-term.
Pogba = Great signing, though hopefully there's still more to come from him.

Matic = Good signing, but a pretty short-term one tbh.
Lukaku = Was so poor last season that he left United therefore he can only be considered a flop. At least we recouped most of the money for him (I think).
Lindelof = Good signing, hasn't quite been great yet but hopefully there's more to come from him.

Sanchez = Diabolical signing, worst signing United has ever made in their premier league era.

Fred = Has been great since the start of December, starting to look like a successful signing.
Dalot = Has been injured too much so far but has shown glimpses of unreal quality for a right back (going forward), wait and see for Dalot.
Grant = I don't even really count him as a signing tbh. Nothing more to say about him.

Overall, 2/4 success rate first summer (but one of the two successes is no longer at the club), 2/3 success rate second summer, Sanchez was a disaster of a signing, 1/2 in the final summer window (Dalot has unfortunately been injured a lot so far and I don't really count Grant, no disrespect to him).

Our signings under Jose had a 50% success rate. Not quite good enough tbh, you want at least 2/3 of them to work out, 80% of them.
A bit of a late reply to this post of mine, but lets be fair here, Lukaku was not a flop, he did well for Jose's purpose for him, and Ole just didn't fancy him, and so for a while became an east target for fans, but I think he's had the last laugh so far..

And Sanchez I've always nailed my colours to him been a vanity signing, rather than Jose actually requesting him. So the only out and out flop so far is Mkhitaryan.

As I've made clear I am not a Jose fan, I just said he was clearly right with how he saw the squad, and was rightly miffed for not been backed in the 2018 summer window, heck I'm even still 'Ole in' on the vote!
 

tomaldinho1

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Yep, this total myth needs to die, fast. Basically since we got knocked out to Barca last season, after fluking it against PSG, the football has been largely awful regardless of who’s been on the pitch. The side that lost 0-2 to Cardiff on the final day, had Pogba playing as well most of the rest of our key players.
It's also annoying because the team, even with injuries, should be performing better than it is. The caf is always an extreme place to find opinions but what we actually see on the pitch really hasn't been good enough both when Ole had a full squad and when he hasn't.

What people need to let sink in is that there is a correlation between the length of time Ole has been in charge and the steadily worsening results i.e. the longer he has had to implement his ideas, the worse it has become. That is even with the additions of Maguire, AWB and James who have improved the team without a doubt, which is even more worrying because I think individually we easily have a top 4 squad. Add Bruno and it will be tragic if we're not top 4 by the end of the season if you look at our team man for man vs others. A good manager will get a team working at a level that is greater than the sum of all its parts, with a bad one you just see a lot of individuals on the pitch. We'll still get wins and we'll turn up now and then in big games because we have a ridiculously expensive squad but we're not going to get close to Pool or City without a clear direction and a real identity in the team and, for me, that starts with the manager.
 

Foxbatt

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I really cannot understand this Ole in brigade logic? It is not even a brigade but more of a platoon. We finished 2nd with the squad Ole got mid season. Then he culled the squad and now we are no where near even the CL spot. So how can anyone else but the manager be responsible for our current situation?
 

sglowrider

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Whether anyone is Ole in or out, we are clearly developing our side for the long run.

Not impulse buying a striker in the summer, waiting another year to see who else can be available, in hindsight looks a terrible decision but who was available?

OIe's biggest mistake which I think he regrets is putting faith in Pogba. He would have thought a fully fit Pogba for 3/4 of the season and others around him we will get top 4. That has backfired massively.

Pogba has 0 interest in Manutd and is only looking to get fit for the Euros, nothing else.

Tbh, I thought Pogba will be a key player for us this season, completely wrong I was.

It will require patience before we get things right.
Most of the Ole Out folks cant see what the management team are doing. People who have done change management or even build companies/operations from scratch will see it. It inevitably never works out in a straight line despite all the best planning.

At best, what you can hope for is a hockey curve in terms of performance.

You dont look at each line items and then use a microscope to judge each line item on a daily/weekly basis. You need to see in totality. Thus the daily moans of those who want him out for another knee jerk solution.
So we are thankful we dont have the moaners in-charge of United or we will be jumping from one hot manager to another.

Fyi. I dont see Ole being the long term manager at the moment -- but what he is doing as a re-build is in the right direction. Maybe he moves onto the DOF position later.
 
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Garethw

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Most of the Ole Out folks cant see what the management team are doing. People who have done change management or even build companies/operations from scratch will see it. It inevitably never works out in a straight line despite all the best planning.

At best, what you can hope for is a hockey curve in terms of performance.

You dont look at each line items and then use a microscope to judge each line item on a daily/weekly basis. You need to see in totality. Thus the daily moans of those who want him out for another knee jerk solution.

The only thing this management team are doing is fecking everything up.
 

jem

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Most of the Ole Out folks cant see what the management team are doing. People who have done change management or even build companies/operations from scratch will see it. It inevitably never works out in a straight line despite all the best planning.

At best, what you can hope for is a hockey curve in terms of performance.

You dont look at each line items and then use a microscope to judge each line item on a daily/weekly basis. You need to see in totality. Thus the daily moans of those who want him out for another knee jerk solution.
So we are thankful we dont have the moaners in-charge of United or we will be jumping from one hot manager to another.

Fyi. I dont see Ole being the long term manager at the moment -- but what he is doing as a re-build is in the right direction. Maybe he moves onto the DOF position later.
I really don't get this. If you give him credit for bringing in Maguire, AWB and James (three transfers that cumulatively rank a 6/10, IMO), then he also deserves blame for not properly replacing Lukaku and Sanchez (some seem to feel that getting rid of those two is some great victory in and of itself.) Furthermore, if he's getting the transfer credit, he also then bears the responsibility for us not bringing Bruno, or any other attacking mid, in over the summer, thereby leaving us with the likes of Pereira and Lingard playing regularly.

In short, I see very limited evidence to suggest he'd be much better in a DOF position than he is in a coaching one. One can't help but think that only fan nostalgia and affection for the player that Ole once was have lead people to think that he is a good fit in either a managerial or DOF capacity.